Let's settle this! Mike D'Angelo (others welcome)
HARRY KNOWLES
Mike D'Angelo I invite you to meet me on the field of honor. There are
many subjects I would love to discuss with you, and would like to quicken
the pace a bit. Let us venture forth to IRC. I wish to speed up the
conversation. For those unfamiliar with the Mike D'Angelo vs Harry
Knowles debates of the last three days. Here it goes. 1st I had the
immense ignorance to post pics of Star Wars Special Edition to this
group. 2nd Mike pointed out my ignorance of the way things simply are.
3rd I made an attempt at the ol majority rules philosophy 4th Mike
informed me of the silent majority and threatened to shut off my account
by narcing on me. 5th I said I would stop posting binaries till there
was a resolution. Well, this is where we are. Mike kindly thanked me
while addressing someone who supports my efforts. I would like to enter
into a great debate ala the "scopes trial" Spencer Tracy vs Fredric
March. Harry Knowles vs Mike D'Angelo. Lincoln vs Douglas. The great
debates. I am merely attempting to settle this debate in lightning fast
style by upping the technology to IRC. I invite others to come and enjoy
the spirit of the event. Also Mike and I have recently entered into a
minor debate on why special effects films have ruined civilization. I
don't think so, apparently he has theories on this. I would love to hear
them, but quickly. Let's get it out of our system. I am game. The
glove has been thrown, Mike. Pick it up, and join me, together we will
make minor history. Uh huh. Yup. We sure will. Well maybe not, but
nonetheless it will be a spirited discussion. Hope he excepts and I hope
some of you lurkers will join us, I will be there. Hope to see you
there.
The field of honor----- #movies
use irc-2.texas.net
irc.texas.net
irc1.cerf.net
The time of honor------ Saturday 7pm eastern standard time
The contestants-------- Harry Knowles- Austin Texas- adolescent blowhard
Mike D'Angelo- New York University- your
statement here
--
"I love the smell of NAPALM in the morning.
It smells like... VICTORY"
----------APOCALYPSE NOW
Harry Knowles
ro...@bga.com
512-467-8747
Tomas Apodaca
In article <31807E...@bga.com>, HARRY KNOWLES <ro...@bga.com> wrote:
>1st I had the immense ignorance to post pics of Star Wars Special
>Edition to this group. 2nd Mike pointed out my ignorance of the way
>things simply are. 3rd I made an attempt at the ol majority rules
>philosophy 4th Mike informed me of the silent majority and threatened
>to shut off my account by narcing on me. 5th I said I would stop
>posting binaries till there was a resolution.
There should be no argument here. You don't post binaries to a newsgroup
that doesn't have "binaries" in its name. It's a simple and good rule
and you will be much despised by evil people with great powers if you
knowingly break it.
If you have pictures you want us to see, put them on a web page or post
them to alt.binaries.pictures and announce them on r.a.m.announce or
other appropriate newsgroups.
fetthead
I with you man!! Kick ass with style!!
FETTHEAD
Mike D'Angelo
HARRY KNOWLES (ro...@bga.com) wrote:
: Mike D'Angelo I invite you to meet me on the field of honor.
[invitation to debate on IRC elided]
I must regretfully decline your kind invitation, as I have already made
plans for Saturday night, to see Jane Campion's TWO FRIENDS (sorry, no
explosions).
I prefer Usenet as a forum for debate; IRC doesn't much appeal to me. I
don't think there's much else to say on the binaries issue; the pictures
are now on a web site where almost anyone can see them, as well as
available via the proper binary newsgroup. As for the "bad movies with
great F/X" debate, I'd rather keep it here, where everybody who cares to
participate may do so at his/her leisure.
Mike "plus, I can't do this quote thing on IRC" D'Angelo
Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
http://pages.nyu.edu/~mqd8478
ee...@execpc.com
I'm with you, too...
Just remember to BE PREPARED!!!
Be able to back up everything you say.
Cite your sources.
Keep a calm disposition.
Don't resort to name-calling.
And may the best man win... (I hope SOMEBODY wins! I'd hate to see this
thing drag on and one and one and.... like many other threads do...)
Good luck!
Eileen
HARRY KNOWLES
Mike D'Angelo wrote:
>
> HARRY KNOWLES (ro...@bga.com) wrote:
>
> : Mike D'Angelo I invite you to meet me on the field of honor.
>
> [invitation to debate on IRC elided]
>
> I must regretfully decline your kind invitation, as I have already made
> plans for Saturday night, to see Jane Campion's TWO FRIENDS (sorry, no
Lets schedule for another night. I am up to it. Stand tall, think on
your feet. This is a unique forum for discussion. I was, and hopefully
still, looking forward to our debate in length on the can't take it back
stage, that is the IRC. Surely we can debate in front of the world, and
prove our metal and maturity to all around.
>
> I prefer Usenet as a forum for debate; IRC doesn't much appeal to me. I
> don't think there's much else to say on the binaries issue; the pictures
> are now on a web site where almost anyone can see them, as well as
> available via the proper binary newsgroup. #######################
Ahhh, here you are wrong. The only issue that has been solved is my
respect for the current rules as they are allegedly written and enforced.
I hold that these are corrupt and ill-advised rules which were decided
long ago, when the technology that both drives the net, and the
technology that is at the users hands has changed. These rules might
have been well advised many a year ago, but now is a different matter.
Times change as does the rules that govern man. Once slavery was
endorsed and upheld as a right amongst the superior men. Then came an
enlightenment, a day of reckoning soon followed. There are people
thirsting for news. These are news groups. Pictures are news. Think of
everything you know through pictures. This medium, can be used as a free
source of multimedia news. The binary groups limit in many cases are not
accesible, thus a censorship of news has begun. Let us speak, as men do,
live and on line, where the interested parties can see the discussion and
see two men bend the ears of one another in a classic case of public
debate.
> As for the "bad movies with
> great F/X" debate, I'd rather keep it here, where everybody who cares to
> participate may do so at his/her leisure.
>Come now Mike, let us debate as true men do, let us look cursor to cursor
and have the thrill and adreneline of live talk. No going back, no
lengthy decisions in composing, a true battle of the minds. Surely any
thoughtful and noble man would leap at the oppurtunity. Come and be
heard. Name the hour upon the face of my clock, the date upon my
calendar, and we shall meet upon the field of honor and have at it.
Rapier wit, not claymore dullardness.
> Mike "plus, I can't do this quote thing on IRC" D'Angelo
True true, but if you have the wit it takes to compose such quotes, then
you have nothing to fear, unless you fear fear itself. Somehow when I
look north towards New York, and upon your sig, I do not smell the odor
of feathered fowl, but rather I see the gleaming eye of intelligence.
Face me, for all to see.
>
> Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
> http://pages.nyu.edu/~mqd8478
--
"I love the smell of NAPALM in the morning.
It smells like... VICTORY"
----------APOCALYPSE NOW
Harry "You can do more than this in IRC" Knowles
ro...@bga.com
512-467-8747
MasonBarge
I for one want to thank you for at least trying to post something of value
in the newsgroup. This isn't spam and it is related. I'd like to see
them here and it seems all you'd have to do is put something in the title
to let people know they're encoded. On the other hand, if people don't
want them, that's okay too. But thanks for the effort.
Tomas Apodaca
>enlightenment, a day of reckoning soon followed. There are people
>thirsting for news. These are news groups. Pictures are news. Think of
>everything you know through pictures. This medium, can be used as a free
>source of multimedia news. The binary groups limit in many cases are not
>accesible, thus a censorship of news has begun.
The newest technology is the web. Not everyone can figure out how to
download a binary, but any schmuck can type in a URL and click on the
picture to download it. You can announce a URL on any appropriate group
and you won't take up unneccesary disk space or annoy people who think
the old rules are good ones.
You know why the binary groups are in some cases not accessible? Do you
realize that large scale posting of binaries to this group might cause
it to be unaccessible to some as well?
Tomas
HARRY KNOWLES
redundant or not. That way people won't continually post the same pics
over and over. Have a two pic a day maximum. If more than that pops up,
the moderator holds the pic till the next day. This is not an impossible
task. However, I, and many others, feel it is a task worth pursuing.
When the pics are news, they should be allowed, if it is merely fan
creations, or did you see blah blah on the cover of blah blah, sorta pics
then nuke em. The moderator wouldn't interfere with the text posts, only
with the binaries. This is something to think about.
--
"I love the smell of NAPALM in the morning.
It smells like... VICTORY"
----------APOCALYPSE NOW
ro...@bga.com
512-467-8747
Mike D'Angelo
HARRY KNOWLES (ro...@bga.com) wrote:
[still trying to get me to debate him on IRC]
: Lets schedule for another night. I am up to it. Stand tall, think on
: your feet. This is a unique forum for discussion. I was, and hopefully
: still, looking forward to our debate in length on the can't take it back
: stage, that is the IRC. Surely we can debate in front of the world, and
: prove our metal and maturity to all around.
I'm gonna pass on this offer, but thanks. Anyway, I don't have any
"metal" to prove.
[re: don't post binaries in non-binary groups]
: I hold that these are corrupt and ill-advised rules which were decided
: long ago, when the technology that both drives the net, and the
: technology that is at the users hands has changed. These rules might
: have been well advised many a year ago, but now is a different matter.
Listen: go ask the folks in news.admin.net-abuse.misc why posting
binaries in non-binary groups remains a lousy idea, and you'll get much
more detailed and knowledgeable explanations than I can provide.
: The binary groups limit in many cases are not accesible, thus a
: censorship of news has begun.
Before you head over to news.admin.net-abuse.misc, pick up a dictionary
and look up "censorship." It might not be a bad idea to find a
constitutional scholar and ask him/her to explain the first amendment to
the U.S. constitution to you, while you're at it; a lot of people seem to
be *very* confused about it of late. (Hint: it's designed to protect
private citizens from *governmental* tyranny.)
: Let us speak, as men do [...]
You know, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS has some of best dialogue in the history
of film.
Mike "see the 'Best Film Ever' thread for more details" D'Angelo
HARRY KNOWLES
Mike D'Angelo wrote:
> I'm gonna pass on this offer, but thanks. Anyway, I don't have any
> "metal" to prove.
Obviously this demonstrates a lack in faith in your ability to be
articulate on the spot. Well, I still would love to talk to you on IRC,
if for no other reason than to see, how your thought processes work on an
up close and personal study.
> Before you head over to news.admin.net-abuse.misc, pick up a dictionary
> and look up "censorship." It might not be a bad idea to find a
> constitutional scholar and ask him/her to explain the first amendment to
> the U.S. constitution to you, while you're at it; a lot of people seem to
> be *very* confused about it of late. (Hint: it's designed to protect
> private citizens from *governmental* tyranny.)
If you are trying to say censorship can only be wrong in the hands of the
government then you are barking up the wrong tree. And that censorship
in any way shape of form is condoned by the constitution then you are
wrong. We as people have the right to distribute information freely
amongst each other. It is one of the fundemental advantages to the
internet. The free and unregulated exchange of information. If the
technology is such that it can not support a full unregulated flow of
pics onto the newsgroups than, let's find what is satisfactory. Maybe a
newsgroup should be set up that say, I have 4 new startling photos of
Jeremy Irons leading troops as Grand Moff Tarkin. Now noone knows of
Irons as Tarkin, and certainly as Harry, just saying it, doesn't convince
most. So I have the pic. I want to post it so everyone can see it.
Well if there were a newsgroup that I could send the photos to, the
moderator would look at them and then based on his decision, he would
forward it to the vital newsqroup. And have a limit on how many he/she
could post, 2 or 3, 4 at the most. Then what ever would be left would go
on the next day, if it were still important.
> : Let us speak, as men do [...]
>
> You know, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS has some of best dialogue in the history
> of film.
"So let it be written, so let it be done!"
Jesse Harris Nice
Would the two of you folks do one of two things:
1: Shut up.
2: Take it to private email.
It was old at the begining, it is even worse now. I wish I could kill
file both of you, except for the minor fact that I _am_ extremely
interested in the pictures that Harry puts up (hopefully on binary).
This arguement has been had by many people many times before across
Usenet. The outcome is simple. The rules stand. You are both right
and both wrong, but it is still a moot point. As I have posted, the
pics have been part of my web site since the day they were posted, and I
will continue to post anything that comes up so people can get it. Part
of this argument has been about bandwidth, never mind the fact that the
entirety of it has been cross-posted to multiple boards. I know, I read
all of them. End it. Now.
j.nice
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done;
|
| it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known." |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Atre...@CMU.edu http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~atreides |
| Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
Michael Aulfrey
ee...@execpc.com writes:
>I'm with you, too...
>Just remember to BE PREPARED!!!
>Be able to back up everything you say.
>Cite your sources.
>Keep a calm disposition.
>Don't resort to name-calling.
And remember...anger, fear, aggression...the Dark Side are they. A Jedi
uses the Force for knowledge and defence...never for attack.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Aulfrey Anti-Gump, X-Phile
University of Western Australia X-Fanfictioneer
Address: mike...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all go about longing for love;
it is the first need of our natures,
the first prayer of our hearts;
but we dare not utter our longing;
we are too shy. -- George Bernard Shaw.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike D'Angelo
HARRY KNOWLES (ro...@bga.com) wrote:
[after I passed on an IRC debate opportunity]
: Obviously this demonstrates a lack in faith in your ability to be
: articulate on the spot.
Look, I didn't want to be rude, but since you've taken the first step in
that direction, let me explain that what my refusal demonstrates is a) my
desire to avoid being alternately irritated to high heaven and bored to
tears, and b) my reluctance to take on a gnat with a howitzer.
[I had previously suggested]
: > Before you head over to news.admin.net-abuse.misc, pick up a dictionary
: > and look up "censorship." It might not be a bad idea to find a
: > constitutional scholar and ask him/her to explain the first amendment to
: > the U.S. constitution to you, while you're at it; a lot of people
: > seem to be *very* confused about it of late. (Hint: it's designed to
: > protect private citizens from *governmental* tyranny.)
: If you are trying to say censorship can only be wrong in the hands of the
: government then you are barking up the wrong tree. And that censorship
: in any way shape of form is condoned by the constitution then you are
: wrong.
[impassioned anti-censorship rhetoric elided]
You should definitely take my advice above; you're clearly unable to
distinguish between what the First Amendment says and the concept of
"censorship" generally. Nor (based on your earlier claim that the
inability of some people to see binary groups constitutes censorship) do
you seem to understand what censorship actually is. Please investigate.
Mike "end of discussion on the IRC thing" D'Angelo
David Zeiger
HARRY KNOWLES (ro...@bga.com) wrote:
: I hold that these are corrupt and ill-advised rules which were decided
: long ago, when the technology that both drives the net, and the
: technology that is at the users hands has changed. These rules might
: have been well advised many a year ago, but now is a different matter.
Then the proper forum to discuss your proposed changes is
news.admin.net-abuse.misc, and I have set followups to that group.
Note that the bincancels were started *very* recently (December 1995,
I believe), and the prevaling attitude is that the problem is getting
*worse*, not better. (sites are having problems keeping up with
the increase in *non-binary* traffic, god help them if you introduce
binary traffic.
: The binary groups limit in many cases are not
: accesible, thus a censorship of news has begun.
If the binary groups are not accessable at a site, it means that site
DOES NOT WANT BINARIES! (geez, that's what, the 4th time I've said this?)
And your logic is flawed anyway--the group alt.music.blueoystercult is not
carried at many sites--are you thus saying that it's OK for me to
discuss the rock group Blue Oyster Cult in these groups?
Of course, your knee-jerk "censorship" claim pretty much shows that
you have no clue as to what's going on. If I posted Make Money Fast
articles to 200 newsgroups, they'd be cancelled, and I'd lose my
account. Which is censorship. But I'm *damn* glad its there.
--
David Zeiger dze...@netcom.com
Ancient cloth fragments show that "stripes" were somewhat shorter
than they are today.
--Abrell's and Thompson's Actual Facts
Julian M Hall
Harry.... I smell napalm.. before the battle! <g>
--
Julian ``Pity I wanted to watch on IRC'' Hall
Paul H. Henry
> Mike D'Angelo wrote:
>
> > I'm gonna pass on this offer, but thanks. Anyway, I don't have any
> > "metal" to prove.
>
> Obviously this demonstrates a lack in faith in your ability to be
> articulate on the spot. Well, I still would love to talk to you on IRC,
> if for no other reason than to see, how your thought processes work on an
> up close and personal study.
>
>
> > Before you head over to news.admin.net-abuse.misc, pick up a dictionary
> > and look up "censorship." It might not be a bad idea to find a
> > constitutional scholar and ask him/her to explain the first amendment to
> > the U.S. constitution to you, while you're at it; a lot of people seem to
> > be *very* confused about it of late. (Hint: it's designed to protect
> > private citizens from *governmental* tyranny.)
>
> If you are trying to say censorship can only be wrong in the hands of the
> government then you are barking up the wrong tree. And that censorship
> in any way shape of form is condoned by the constitution then you are
> wrong. We as people have the right to distribute information freely
> amongst each other. It is one of the fundemental advantages to the
> internet.
Look. What you are saying is simply wrong, and it's one of the great
tragedies of this medium that so many cyberd00dz seem to believe it. No
private entity is under any obligation, whether legal or moral, to provide
you with a forum on demand. Newspapers never print every article that is
delivered to them via the wire services, and they do not print every
letter they receive. That is not censorship, it is editing.
Would you have the government require African-American community
newspapers to print long hateful letters from white supremacists? That's
another side of the First Amendment, and it is just as important: The
government has no power to compel speech. Likewise, private ISPs cannot be
compelled by government to carry all Internet traffic that comes their
way. It would be a violation of the First Amendment. If your ISP doesn't
carry the newsgroups you want, find another one or pester your current ISP
to change their policies.
All I ask is that you take some time to learn about First Amendment law
before presuming to lecture other people about it.
--
=============================================================================
_ (phe...@halcyon.com) || I N M E M O R Y
|_) || Oklahoma City * April 19, 1995
| aul H. Henry - Seattle, Wash.|| Remember the Victims of Extremism and Hate
====================== http://www.halcyon.com/phenry/ =====================
Matt Waggoner
In article <4lut7i$q...@news.nyu.edu>, mqd...@is2.nyu.edu says...>: Obviously this demonstrates a lack in faith in your ability to be
>: articulate on the spot.
>
>Look, I didn't want to be rude, but since you've taken the first step in
>that direction, let me explain that what my refusal demonstrates is a) my
>desire to avoid being alternately irritated to high heaven and bored to
>tears, and b) my reluctance to take on a gnat with a howitzer.
>
>[I had previously suggested]
>
>: > and look up "censorship." It might not be a bad idea to find a
>: > constitutional scholar and ask him/her to explain the first amendment to
>: > the U.S. constitution to you, while you're at it; a lot of people
>: > seem to be *very* confused about it of late. (Hint: it's designed to
>: > protect private citizens from *governmental* tyranny.)
>
>: If you are trying to say censorship can only be wrong in the hands of the
>: government then you are barking up the wrong tree. And that censorship
>: in any way shape of form is condoned by the constitution then you are
>: wrong.
>
>
>You should definitely take my advice above; you're clearly unable to
>distinguish between what the First Amendment says and the concept of
>"censorship" generally. Nor (based on your earlier claim that the
>inability of some people to see binary groups constitutes censorship) do
>you seem to understand what censorship actually is. Please investigate.
>
>Mike "end of discussion on the IRC thing" D'Angelo
>
>Tisch School of the Arts, NYU
>http://pages.nyu.edu/~mqd8478
>
>
>
Why don't you both shut up and settle this on IRC (or e-mail, if you
find IRC so anathema, you techno-weenie) instead of wasting time in the
newsgroup? This is rec.arts.sf.STARWARS.misc, not alt.censorship.machismo.
<For further effect, Mael whips out his lightsaber and wields it meaningfully>
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
/ Matt Waggoner - DNRC's Minister of Pants, aka Maelstrom \
\ http://www.seas.ucla.edu/~waggoner/index.html (- ma...@ucla.edu -) /
/ Call THE DEATH STAR BBS at 310-276-4807. Four years and counting... \
\ -- /
/ "If you can't say 'fuck,' you can't say 'fuck the government.'" \
\ -- Lenny Bruce /
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Rimrunner
>> don't think there's much else to say on the binaries issue; the pictures
>> are now on a web site where almost anyone can see them, as well as
>> available via the proper binary newsgroup. #######################
>
>Ahhh, here you are wrong. The only issue that has been solved is my
>respect for the current rules as they are allegedly written and enforced.
>long ago, when the technology that both drives the net, and the
>technology that is at the users hands has changed. These rules might
>have been well advised many a year ago, but now is a different matter.
>The binary groups limit in many cases are not
>live and on line, where the interested parties can see the discussion and
>see two men bend the ears of one another in a classic case of public
>debate.
>
concerning the posting of binaries to newsgroups "corrupt" and "ill-advised."
It has nothing to do with censorship, it has to do with DISK SPACE. Yes
indeedy. F'r instance, here at Smith we dump ALL our news articles every
FOUR DAYS because otherwise Usenet would clog our server with unexpired
articles.
Do you have any idea how much space a binary graphics file takes up?
Take a look sometime. Small sites like Smith College and privately run
domains DO NOT have the capacity to store these for any length of time.
THAT is why many sites do not carry binary groups, and often no alt.*
groups at all.
The problem of clutter on the net is getting worse, not better. These
days everyone and their goldfish has a web page. Before the World Wide
Web got HUGE, we had just about enough bandwidth that we didn't have
to worry about it. Then people Discovered the Web. Nowadays Netscape
crashes on a regular basis around here. It takes forever to conduct
a search because the search engines have to wade through so much
material.
There are Good Reasons not to post binaries to groups that don't want
them. And, PLEASE, *don't* bring up the moderator thing again. That
caused a bloodbath here *last* year.
Take it to IRC, or take it to email, but take it off Usenet. That's
all I have to say.
*plonk*
--
Genevieve------...@cs.smith.edu------------------Smith College
Williams, gwil...@smith.smith.edu Where men are an
Professional nihilist gwil...@sophia.smith.edu endangered species.
-- --
"Things are never permanently resolved when dealing with artists. Their
whole approach is to consider all possibilities, seek more possibilities
no matter how remote, arcane or tangential and explore every single one
in as disorganized a fashion as possible." -- my mom
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MasonBarge
Russ Arcure makes a good case for keeping binaries off this newgroup.
Sorry, Mike, I change my vote. I just didn't realize what problems it
caused for some people. -- Mason Barge.
Russ Arcuri
I just don't see what is so difficult about understanding some very simple
facts.
1. Binaries take up LOTS of space. The phrase "A picture is worth a
thousand words" is an understatement. A typical non-binary post takes up
1 or 2 K. Even a small binary color picture is likely to be anywhere from
50 - 500K depending on the resolution, color depth, and format.
2. Some offline newsreaders do not allow the user to select what they will
read before downloading. Just one binary post added to a newsgroup could
easily quadruple the download time and expense for that newsgroup.
3. *There are appropriate groups for binary postings.*
4. If your site doesn't get binaries, the appropriate course of action is
to talk to your system administrator about getting the groups. The USENET
community is not responsible for which groups your particular site gets,
and shouldn't be expected to compensate for failings on the part of
individual sites.
5. When all else fails, do a web search. There's not much that can be
found on a USENET binary group that can't be found on the web somewhere.
Addressing some specific thoughts put forth by Harry Knowles:
> Then create a moderator that screens the pics and decides if one is
> redundant or not.
Redundancy is not the issue. Disk space/download time/expense are the
issues. See #1 & #2 above.
> Have a two pic a day maximum. If more than that pops up,
> the moderator holds the pic till the next day.
See #1 & #2 above.
> When the pics are news, they should be allowed,
They are allowed, on binary newsgroups. See #3 & #4 above.
> The moderator wouldn't interfere with the text posts, only
> with the binaries. This is something to think about.
It is nothing worth thinking about. There are lots of appropriate ways to
disseminate pictures on the Internet. Posting them to non-binary groups
is a poor solution, for the reasons detailed above.
Russ "This post, while long, is still only 2K" Arcuri