english manual (sONOSAX MINIR82)
d rosen
any thoughts?
http://www.sonosax.com/index2.html
SONOSAX MINIR82
Manuel provisoire ( français )
Preliminary User Manual ( english)
my first 2 were:
nice that you assign inputs to HD (tracks 1-8), and CF (tracks 1-2), so
its the stereo mix on CF, isos on HD.
didn't read anywhere if it is possible to transfer files from the HD to
the CF, and it would seem that you can NOT record 8 tracks or even 4
directly to the CF card. so isos only deliverable through some external
device like a laptop.
dan.
Peter
I'm happy to see the manual come online. I hope the recorder does so
too.
My quick thoughts (based on potentially faulty reading) are as follows:
1) All tracks are recorded only as mono or stereo pairs. It does not
seem to create multitrack bwf-p's. This may be somewhat troublesome for
some transfer and telecine operations.
2) File storage is in PROJECT NAME folders containing lists of
scene/take files. Would you want to make a PROJECT NAME folder for each
shooting day? As this is already in a nested folder (AUDIO), I suppose
you can't go too deep before DV40's and the like will no longer be able
to see the files. This may be moot as you'd have to either send a
revolving 2-track CF card or burn something you've copied using a
computer so you could change the folder structure.
3) The CF v HD matrix looks good for dual disk recording. However, it
doesn't allow mirroring and doesn't seem to offer file copying without
using a computer. So, in the course of a shooting day with film
breakoff, it seems as if you'd either have to rotate (or copy) the CF
card, or copy form the HD which would give no indication of what files
were most recent or as yet uncopied. (I assume this because the manual
suggests the HD file list is in Scene Number order.)
4) Scene naming seems a little deeply nested in the menus for quick
entry and there so far doesn't appear to be capabiility for
post-recording editing of STN or the use of an external keyboard for
entry.
Aside from these software updatable issues, the recorder seems to do a
lot in a small package and the operation also appears to be simple and
without too many opportunities for serious user error. I look forward
to the released product.
As to the manual, there are some remaining French instructions and some
imperfect translations. I hereby volunteer to rewrite the manual into
American technical English and I only request a MiniR82 and a SX-ST in
return.
Peter
t...@soundmixer.co.nz
t...@soundmixer.co.nz
I was at Sonosax a few weeks ago on my way through Europe so I had a
look at the mini r82 .
You can only record 2 tracks to the cf card and there is no mirror mode
but it records simultaneouly to the cf and hardrive and you select
which tracks from the hardrive you want to go to the cf . Also at this
stage there is no way to monitor track 1 of cf card in mono in both
ears , but after playing around decided what I would do is say dedicate
track 8 as a mix down track and assign it to track 1 of cf card
allowing me to monitor track 8 as in mono . This is purely my opinion
for my purposes of supplying track 1 as my mix track . That would leave
tracks 1-7 for isos .
The recorder is beautifully engineered and made from a cast block of
alloy . . I am waiting for the in channel recorder as then I can
utilise the monitor facilities on the sx-st which are very flexible .
I am still trying to get my head around how I would playback a take and
listen to one of the iso tracks (quickly) . It can be done of course
but means toggling through the menu .
You are right you can only go through a computer to xfer your files .
Once again for my purposes only I thought one could hand off the cf at
the end of the day with the mix and maybe something else on track 2
then the next day during a lighting setup xfer isos to computer and
then whatever .
I see it as an excellent 2nd multitrack recorder that takes up none or
very little space and packs a lot of features for the size and money .
regards
Tony Johnson
Gtrew
for yourself. Received the first one yesterday. A real beauty.
Glen Trew
d rosen
Gtrew wrote:
> Peter, assuming you are home for a while, drop by the store and see it
> for yourself. Received the first one yesterday. A real beauty.
>
> Glen Trew
glen,
no mention in the manual of the remote control (pictured on the site).
is there a remote with your demo?
i'm asking as i have a device with it's display positioned as this 1 is
and it's a pain when working out of a bag.
much better for this machine to go in a pocket with record, stop and
meters on a small remote attached to the bag, imho.
any thoughts on who will make a compact (bagable) mixer with 8 digital
outs?
dan.
Gtrew
The remote control I assume you are refering to is for the built-in
recorder option of the SX-ST mixer, giving it basically the same user
interface as the Mini-R has.
Glen Trew
d rosen
Gtrew wrote:
> Hello Dan,
>
> The remote control I assume you are refering to is for the built-in
> recorder option of the SX-ST mixer, giving it basically the same user
> interface as the Mini-R has.
>
> Glen Trew
hello glen,
just checked the sonosax website and they seem to have taken the
picture down(?).
what i saw was a remote, styled and layed out like the minir82 in the
same picture as a minir82. i assumed this was to allow basic functions
to be operated while the recorder was in a bag.
none the wiser now.
thanks,
dan.
Peter
Thanks, Glen.
I did stop by Trew today and spent a couple of hours with the MiniR82.
Personally, I think the cigar box it comes in may be worth the selling
price. Nice wooden box with compartments for the recorder, adapters,
and the included software (which seems totally unnecessary but I hear
it's not bad.
I have a few updates of my earlier comments and some new ones.
Back to #2, the PROJECT NAME system is workable but a little awkward.
For feature use, you might want to use a new project name for each day.
Project names are seen as folders on a computer. All the files internal
to each folder are listed in one big group, sorted by what I think is
either scene name or chronolgical order when viewed on the MiniR82.
One potential problem is that when viewed on a computer, each file is
contained in its own folder named by its SCENE NAME. I guess if you
rceorded muliple track pairs, they would all be in this folder. But the
actual filenames are unrelated to anything I could identify. When I
examined the recorded files, metadata in both bext and iXML is correct.
There is no apparent way to edit it in the MiniR82 after recording. I
don't know how transfer machines will like the nested folders. The path
is DRIVE:AUDIO:PROJECTNAME:SCENENAME.TAKENUMBER:FILENAME.
Another potential film break option is to put all audio in one PROJECT
NAME for a shoot (I don't know the number of files allowed in each
folder.) Then you could turn in just the data from a daily reformatted
CF (which records simultaneously) at each film break. The iso's or
other material could be sent separately. I didn't have a CF card, so I
don't know if this would work.
You don't get to select from existing project names. If you enter a
name, it creates a new folder and starts recording in it. If you want
to pick an existing project, you have to retype its name perfectly,
then it doesn't create a new one, just starts adding new files to the
existing one. (This doesn't seem to be in the manual.)
As to my previous comment #4, the scene and take naming system isn't
too bad. If you back up one menu from the recording screen, then the
second selection you scroll to is scene name. It's a little bit slow to
enter the name. It works like recording a high score in Space Invaders,
one character at a time scrolling between 36 alphanumeric characters
and a blank. You have to start from the last entry, not an empty name.
This makes it easy to add a letter suffix, but slower to go from a long
scene name (107AA) to a short one (2). You woukld have to scroll to
each blank.
This works the same as the PROJECT NAME system.
Here's the bad part. If you create a folder name with either leading
spaces or internal spaces (__DAY2 or DAY_2), that folder can't be seen
on a Mac (and it makes infinitely recursive folders in list mode).
Windows can see them fine, but the Mac can't even though it normally
allows spaces in fiolder names. (Speaking without knowledge, I'd say it
uses an ASCII null (0) instead of an ASCII space (32).) Since you can't
edit an existing PROJECT NAME (it would just make a new project), you'd
have to use WIndows to open the folders. Scene and take naming doesn't
have this issue because, las I mentioned above, the filename is
unrelated to the scene name.
The device itself is extremely solid and has some beautiful design
features. The level setting wheels are recessed into a groove so you
can easily adjust them but they are protected from being bumped. They
have just the right amount of turning resistance. The display is small
but clear. It took me about five minutes to get used to the menu
navigation but then it was simple and relatively quick. The routing
matrix works very well, a cross between the direct access of the Deva 5
and the simplicity of the 744. My complaint is with the method of
holding buttons to select or go into certain menus. You have to push
firmly for one second, which often seems like an eternity. With only
four navigation buttons, I can see why a second function for the
buttons is necessary, but I wish it didn't take so long. Maybe
double-clicking could be a future option. A mild warning for iPod
users, the button combination for MiniR82 Power-on (up and down
simultaneously) is the same as an iPod Reset.
All-in-all, it seems to be a great package for a lot of purposes. 10
tracks, 4 analog ins, 8 digital ins, 2 mic preamps, pre-record, all in
a beautiful housing smaller than a TCD-D8. Runs on AAs which are easy
to change in a nice compartment and goes from OFF to recording in 2
seconds.
I've been thinking about one as a primary recorder. When it's built
into the SX-ST, you get dedicated transport buttons and possibly
keyboard attachability (I didn't try the built-in model), an extremely
convenient form factor (particularly for insert cars), and powering
from the mixer.As a separate unit, it would be fantastic for effects,
free-driving shots, putting in a pocket (yours or an actor's) and
difficult locations (mountains, trails, elevators.) Sonosax chose not
to make a unit that would directly dock into the mixer, but maybe when
connected, the SX-ST's transport controls will work. I don't know yet.
My only other thought is to (sell the house and) buy two. I haven't
tried, but I bet you could pop the CF card out of the built-in one and
put it in the pocket model for occasional use, and then put it back
into the mixer. You'd have to manually archive the files as they can't
currently be copied back to the HD.
Anyway, after letting me record from various sources, play back,
transfer via USB to both Mac and PC, adust, reconfigure, and hotplug
(the MiniR82) in a way that's not recommended, Glen has invited me back
to do more tests later in the week. I'll try to find a CF card to use
as well. I also want to burn a CD/DVD from the CF and try it in Glen's
DV842. If nothing else comes of this, Glen may be encouraged to
recommend me for a job out of town.
Peter
Fernando
Fernando
d rosen
peter,
thanks very much for taking the time to post all that info. i'll
definitely read anything else you find time to post about the device.
dan.
t...@soundmixer.co.nz
Hi peter ,
You seemed to have had a bigger play than I did . You bring up some
interesting points . I am leaning towards the built in model but was
under the impression that it does not accept a keyboard at this stage .
I think too for a feature you need faster accessibility to file naming
and the ability to rename . What do you mean that the filenames were
unrelated to anything , did they not carry the scene # as per the
folder they were in .
Did you try out the monitoring menu . The way I understand is that you
can't monitor track 1 of cf card in mono in both ears , which I think
is a potential problem . What do you think? .
I like the idea of sending cf card off with film break and sending isos
and other materials off at a later date , but what about the naming you
would have to have accurate file naming or it would be a pain for post
. Although not great for those Editors that want to pick and choose
from the iso tracks as they edit . I don't know . I want to make it
work but there are some issues to work through .
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the demo .
cheers
Tony
Jeff Wexler
"Fernando" <f...@ran.es> wrote:
> nice review, thank you!
>
> Fernando
Very thorough follow up for "first look" and thank you Peter for taking
the time to post that.
--- and thanks to Fernando for knowing how to NOT quote everybody else's
entire post.
Regards, Jeff Wexler
Peter
Tony,
I didn't spend much time in the monitoring menu, though I understand
the same thing about mono monitoring off the card that you stated. I
can try it once I have a CF card and the MiniR82 at the same time.
And, yes, a lot of picture editors want the alternate tracks right
away. I suppose I would have the CF go to telecine at film break, then
send the other data on a DVD when I had a few minutes to copy and burn.
I'd have a least a day or two to send the DVD before telecined material
would get to picture editorial.
Finally, I agree filenaming is a big issue. I didn't try too hard to
figure out the MiniR82's filenames. They seemed to be a letter followed
by a serial number. There was no apparent encoding of take, scene, or
project name. The folder the files were in did have this info. It was
named SCENENAME.TAKENUMBER. I don't imagine most conforming programs or
NLE systems will look at the folder name for this info, nor will
editors want to go through another layer before the files. I can only
imagine the MiniR82 is set up this way to allow it to group the 2-track
files together for the take. Personally, I prefer bwf-p for all tracks
to be together. I don't know Sonosax's reason for their concept. I can
only guess it's for the same reason the SX-ST is set up in stereo pairs
for the bus assignments. I've been told that's a necessity for it's
intended use in European broadcasting. (I'd like it better if you could
just assign channels directly to the 8 busses and not have to use them
as 4 stereo pairs.)
But back to filenames, even the Deva II's method of partition number
followed by sequential segment number is easier to cross reference than
a non-descriptive serial number which is not displayed on the device.
And it sticks to a short name. But a filename reflecting scene and take
seems most intuitive. I will leave the suggestion as to how it is best
done to another thread which can also shed light on how various
transfer machines, NLE's and conforming software deal with the issue.
Peter
Gtrew
> Tony,
> I didn't spend much time in the monitoring menu, though I understand
> the same thing about mono monitoring off the card that you stated. I
> can try it once I have a CF card and the MiniR82 at the same time.
Tomorrow we'll borrow a CF card from our photographer (wouldn't be
right to borrow one from a 744T).
> And, yes, a lot of picture editors want the alternate tracks right
> away. I suppose I would have the CF go to telecine at film break, then
> send the other data on a DVD when I had a few minutes to copy and burn.
> I'd have a least a day or two to send the DVD before telecined material
> would get to picture editorial.
> Finally, I agree filenaming is a big issue. I didn't try too hard to
> figure out the MiniR82's filenames. They seemed to be a letter followed
> by a serial number. There was no apparent encoding of take, scene, or
> project name. The folder the files were in did have this info. It was
> named SCENENAME.TAKENUMBER. I don't imagine most conforming programs or
> NLE systems will look at the folder name for this info, nor will
> editors want to go through another layer before the files. I can only
> imagine the MiniR82 is set up this way to allow it to group the 2-track
> files together for the take. Personally, I prefer bwf-p for all tracks
> to be together. I don't know Sonosax's reason for their concept. I can
> only guess it's for the same reason the SX-ST is set up in stereo pairs
> for the bus assignments. I've been told that's a necessity for it's
> intended use in European broadcasting. (I'd like it better if you could
> just assign channels directly to the 8 busses and not have to use them
> as 4 stereo pairs.)
About the SX-ST and stereo pairs, I believe this is a misunderstanding.
While the pan pot pans between odd and even busses, each input can be
assigned independantly to any mix bus. The four master pots for the mix
busses (that normally live there life in the full up position) control
two channels each (1&2, 3&4, 5&6, 7&8), but this is just to take up
less space on the board.
Glen Trew
°R¤¼ €•*¦*b€rt°•
schreef:
>Thanks, Glen.
>I did stop by Trew today and spent a couple of hours with the MiniR82.
>Personally, I think the cigar box it comes in may be worth the selling
>price. Nice wooden box with compartments for the recorder, adapters,
>and the included software (which seems totally unnecessary but I hear
>it's not bad.
Curious, but what sort of software is that ?
>I have a few updates of my earlier comments and some new ones.
>Back to #2, the PROJECT NAME system is workable but a little awkward.
>For feature use, you might want to use a new project name for each day.
Isn't the project the feature-folder, and a day is a new folder within
that feature folder ?
> But the
>actual filenames are unrelated to anything I could identify.
Sounds like the Merging, or Cantar file structure.
>You don't get to select from existing project names. If you enter a
>name, it creates a new folder and starts recording in it. If you want
>to pick an existing project, you have to retype its name perfectly,
>then it doesn't create a new one, just starts adding new files to the
>existing one. (This doesn't seem to be in the manual.)
Hmm, they have some updating to do in the first year i think. I'm a
bit surprised by this, since the whole file system is rather essential
from day one.
>Here's the bad part. If you create a folder name with either leading
>spaces or internal spaces (__DAY2 or DAY_2), that folder can't be seen
>on a Mac (and it makes infinitely recursive folders in list mode).
Yep, always use a 0 instead, never a _ then you are compatible.
No Bwf-P ability might indeed be ( and sure is ) a bummer, but i
assume this unit needs at least 6 months to get it;s basics working
more smooth.
Any idea how long on these 2 AA ? possibility to power it external ?
How are the mic preamps ?
R
adhocsound
Peter,
You don't speak about how is the sound of that machine...
Is it a secondary purpose?
Philippe Vandendriessche
AD HOC Sound Services
Brussels - Belgium.
Peter
Yes, Glen, sorry about the confusion. You can assign to any buss in the
SX-ST, it was mainly the layout I refered to.
Peter
Peter
I, perhaps mistakenly, assume that this recorder has a completely
transparent sound when used with digital inputs and outputs. I did use
line level and it seemed very quiet and sounded great but I wasn't in
my normal field environment with dialogue so I can't yet make a fair
comparison to other recorders.
Maybe next time I'll try the mic preamps. I don't believe the MiniR82
has mic powering. At least I didn't find settings for it. So it would
need (for me) some external box, mixer or power supply. I can try a
battery powered mic but I don't own one. The two situations where the
mic preamps would be useful to me are effects recording or a free
drive/wandering actor situation. I'll look at options for mics and
power for those situations. Otherwise it would be fed from a mixer.
Still, it is worth further investigation (and report).
Peter
°R¤¼ €•*¦*b€rt°•
<~¤-¦-y¤€-•¤¦*@le€s.com> schreef:
>On 20 Sep 2006 15:42:08 -0700, "Peter" <pkur...@earthlink.net>
>
>No Bwf-P ability might indeed be ( and sure is ) a bummer, but i
>assume this unit needs at least 6 months to get it;s basics working
>more smooth.
Hmm, just reading the manual, and it does record in stereo files, and
afaik, these are -P files.
R
°R¤¼ €•*¦*b€rt°•
schreef:
>
>Peter,
>
>You don't speak about how is the sound of that machine...
>Is it a secondary purpose?
I cannot find any PH48 setting in the manual, meaning only dynamic, or
Radio mics can use that Mic in...
Meaning you definitely need a mixer in front of it if you want to
record atmo's or something, pity.
Then the pricetag is getting important, since a 6000 dollar 10 tracker
and a 5000 dollar mixer makes it an expensive backup, even in
combination with a Sax mixing console.
I also cannot find some proper listing of I/O connectors in that
manual.
R
°R¤¼ €•*¦*b€rt°•
<~¤-¦-y¤€-•¤¦*@le€s.com> schreef:
>I cannot find any PH48 setting in the manual, meaning only dynamic, or
>Radio mics can use that Mic in...
But the pricelist shows a cable for connecting PH48 mic's :), so there
must be some sort of PH in there...good, saves me a mixer.
And it has a ext. power supply, also good.
Would be an interesting piece of gear in combination with a OV1..
R
Gtrew
mic input XLR cables today.
Glen Trew
d rosen
i notice that the phantom input cable is priced the same as the
dynamic, so i'm guessing that the binder 8m used to go into the device
just has different pins wired(?) depending on the source and powering
requirements.
they have also priced sanken mics: cos-11 and cos-22 with binder plugs
so there are various mic powering options (no mention of T power
though). they describe the cos-22 as wired to A binder 8m so it's also
a stereo input on the binder 8m.
other than the sx series and the ov1 what other mixers would be good to
use with this device?
ie. 8 mic pres, battery powered, digital outs.
dan
Oleg Kaizerman
rme octa mic d with every mixer
the motu traveler has adat outs only
--
Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland
pra...@fido.ca
good as I have ever heard and with the supplied AES cable I am able to
come directly out of the Sonosax without any conversion. However, The
AES from the Sonosax will only act as a master clock so time code
becomes a problem. As far as I have found, there is no TC generator out
there which will clock to an external Word in and then output T.C. Thus
the Mini R8 can not clock perfectly to both the Sonosax AES and an
external T.C. source. I have spoken to Pierre at Sonosax and he assures
me this is not a problem because the TC is only stamped at the
beginning of the file. I am still uncomfortable with this. I suggested
that Sonosax modify the SXST so that it's AES outs can Clock to an
external source thereby allowing something like my 744T to act as the
clock AND TC master. BTW the 744T will only work in slave mode if it
is reading external word clock and it's TC ouput cannot be used as a
master in that setup config. I also discovered that the Sonosax AES
outs have a bit of a bug when they are hooked up to the Mini R8. The
meters on the Mini R8 will jump around when you turn on the Sonosax and
then will pulse until you flick the AES switches back and forth on the
Sonosax. Then the Mini R8 will lock. As with most recorders, inputting
Scene and Take Data on the fly is not that quick. and when you are
running 3 systems to ensure backup it's virtually impossible. I am
using Boom Recorder on a MacBook, a 744T and an HHB Dat. recorder. The
Mini R8 sits on the shelf right now until I can find a way to fit it
seamlessly into the system.
Gtrew
an external timecode generator, it does not have an analog timecode
output. Like other digital recorders, it calculates timecode by
counting samples "past midnight" and then stamps the resulting number
at the begining of the take.
The limitation of not have a timecode generator running in tandum with
the internal clock is the inability to send an external timecode for
syncing other devices. So, you cannot jam sync a slate with the Mini-R
alone.
Jam syncing with a timecode film camera is not a problem because the
master source is usually an external box such as the Origin C. Jamming
a slate from the sound recorder is the obvious daily chore that would
have to change. For this purpose, a relatively inexpensive device such
as the Denecke SyncBox, or more expensive (and very useful) Denecke
GR-1, or similar devices from Ambient can be kept as a master timecode
clock. Many sound mixers use this method even with recorders that do
have internal generators because is allows the recorder to be powered
down without having to reset timecode.
Glen Trew
The reason is that nonlinear recorders
°R¤¼ €•*¦*b€rt°•
> I have spoken to Pierre at Sonosax and he assures
>me this is not a problem because the TC is only stamped at the
>beginning of the file. I am still uncomfortable with this.
Hmmm, sounds logical what he says, since the drift that might occur in
that take should be less then 0.000000x seconds i would think. ( IF
there would be drift at all )
> I suggested
>that Sonosax modify the SXST so that it's AES outs can Clock to an
>external source thereby allowing something like my 744T to act as the
>clock AND TC master. BTW the 744T will only work in slave mode if it
>is reading external word clock and it's TC ouput cannot be used as a
>master in that setup config.
Might be interesting to measure these clocks ( MR, SD, and or even the
SXST, if that has TC ) and see what the drift is over 8 hours ?
>I also discovered that the Sonosax AES
>outs have a bit of a bug when they are hooked up to the Mini R8. The
>meters on the Mini R8 will jump around when you turn on the Sonosax and
>then will pulse until you flick the AES switches back and forth on the
>Sonosax. Then the Mini R8 will lock. As with most recorders, inputting
>Scene and Take Data on the fly is not that quick. and when you are
>running 3 systems to ensure backup it's virtually impossible. I am
>using Boom Recorder on a MacBook, a 744T and an HHB Dat. recorder. The
>Mini R8 sits on the shelf right now until I can find a way to fit it
>seamlessly into the system.
Hmmm, maybe i'm a bit spoiled here, but why on Earth are you running 3
machines ? ( over here i run just one, and one only )
R
Gtrew
Binders. They are 8 pins to allow a variety of options depending on how
the cable is wired.
Connector 1 is for Mic input 1. The input cable can be wired to the
8-pins in such a way to have PH48 or not. It can also be wired for 3.3V
for lavelier microphones to be plugged directly in without the need for
an XLR tube power supply. A Schoeps Collet active cable can be wired
with PH48 and 3.3 so that the Schoeps CMC body is not needed.
Connector 2 is the same as Connector 1 except that both inputs (mic 1
and mic 2) are available on connector 2. This allows a stereo
microphone to be plugged into the MiniR without the need for a Y
adapter. A cable with a mini 8-pin Binder on one end and a XLR5F on the
other end is all that's needed.
A typical set would include two cables with 8-pin Binder to XLR-3 for
standard phantom microphone use.
The Binder connector pinouts are not currently on the Sonosax website.
I have the schematics and will post them with the manual on Trew
download page Monday.
Glen Trew