The Prime of Ms. Jean Rodie (sp?)
Maury Markowitz
I stayed up late last night watching this excellent film. I'd seen the
later half before, but the film is good enough that knowing the ending
doesn't "ruin it". I'd have to say it's way up on my all time fav lists,
I always like movies with good dialog, and the 2nd to last scene is
superb.
I have to say, I find the middle somewhat rushed. At one point the main
"Brodie girl" (Sandy) is a Jr. noting how disgusting it would be to
undress in front of a guy, five minutes later she's a senior, posing nude
for her lover the art teacher. Ok, the "middle" wasn't really needed from
a plot perspective I suppose, but it did strike me as effecting the flow a
lot more than I would have suspected.
Anyway, I'm curious about some of the characters. Maggy Smith I've seen
before. The guy who plays the music teacher/Jean's lover I recognize, but
I can't name any of the movies I've seen him in. The schoolmaster's
assistant was great, anyone know her from any other movies? Did the girl
who played Sandy (Pamila something) ever do anything? I thought her
performance was superb, but I've never seen her in any other movies.
Maury
Brian Kraft
ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> I stayed up late last night watching this excellent film. I'd seen the
>later half before, but the film is good enough that knowing the ending
>doesn't "ruin it". I'd have to say it's way up on my all time fav lists,
>I always like movies with good dialog, and the 2nd to last scene is
>superb.
One needs to see the movie for the first time from the beginning to
enjoy the full impact of the "emerging protagonist" (a character who
gradually gains much importance during the film).
Recently, I've noticed comics doing spoofs of and impressions from
this classic movie, because it's so famous for emotions overflowing
from most of the characters.
If you love those Scottish accents, watch "Tunes of Glory" by the same
director (Ronald Neame).
> I have to say, I find the middle somewhat rushed. At one point the main
>"Brodie girl" (Sandy) is a Jr. noting how disgusting it would be to
>undress in front of a guy, five minutes later she's a senior, posing nude
>for her lover the art teacher. Ok, the "middle" wasn't really needed from
>a plot perspective I suppose, but it did strike me as effecting the flow a
>lot more than I would have suspected.
The nude scene was intended to surprise the audience in the same way
that Jean Brodie is stunned when she eventually learns that the art
teacher's "lover" is Sandy, not Jenny. So a jump in the passage of
time occurs at that point for a good reason.
> Anyway, I'm curious about some of the characters. Maggy Smith I've seen
>before. The guy who plays the music teacher/Jean's lover I recognize, but
>I can't name any of the movies I've seen him in. The schoolmaster's
>assistant was great, anyone know her from any other movies? Did the girl
>who played Sandy (Pamila something) ever do anything? I thought her
>performance was superb, but I've never seen her in any other movies.
There's lots of movie trivia here. Maggie Smith and Robert Stephens
(art teacher) were married to each other at the time. Gordon Jackson
(music teacher) was in many productions, including "Tunes of Glory"
and the "Upstairs Downstairs" TV show. Celia Johnson (headmistress)
is best known for "Brief Encounter", which is a '40s "Bridges of
Madison County" romantic tearjerker. Pamela Franklin was a child
actress who played the little girl in "The Innocents" horror movie.
--
Brian Kraft <bhk...@gj.net>
Maury Markowitz
In article <3365bb1d...@imcom.com>, bhk...@gj.net (Brian Kraft) wrote:
> One needs to see the movie for the first time from the beginning to
> enjoy the full impact of the "emerging protagonist" (a character who
> gradually gains much importance during the film).
I agree, although I found it somewhat abrupt. The character always had
attitude right from the start, but other changes seemed somewhat sudden in
terms of movie flow.
There's a lot of "coming of age" movies though, and if you look at this
one in that respect only it's somewhat pompous. Many of the characters
were "shedded" in the middle and one has to wonder about the protagonist's
motives other than personal. For instance, one has to wonder if she took
the art teacher as a lover to piss off Brodie, or for her own reasons. Of
course, that's what makes a movie great, if you walk away thinking about
it.
> Recently, I've noticed comics doing spoofs of and impressions from
> this classic movie, because it's so famous for emotions overflowing
> from most of the characters.
Well I found it somewhat hard to believe the Brodie character - I've met
people that act like that, and it's always just that - an act. I guess
this left me always waiting for the self-discovery portion of the movie,
but that's not what it's about, far from it even when the art teacher
finally gets over her she just blows it off.
Other than that I didn't find many of the characters _overly_ emotional,
although the Mary character was terribly overacted.
> If you love those Scottish accents
Actually I'm more a fan of Irish. The women always sound like they're
singing (notably when drunk). I did have a lot of fun in Scotland though,
notably Ullapool.
> The nude scene was intended to surprise the audience in the same way
> that Jean Brodie is stunned when she eventually learns that the art
> teacher's "lover" is Sandy, not Jenny. So a jump in the passage of
> time occurs at that point for a good reason.
Sure, and it did work I suppose. I guess that's one of the main points,
Brodie was very sure her romantic ideals represented reality in shocking
accuracy, but they all turn out to be wrong. That brings me back to the
point above though, did Sandy do everything out of spite?
By the way, when was the movie made? Was this a shocker for that
season? Was this a "big" movie in terms of showings?
> There's lots of movie trivia here. Maggie Smith and Robert Stephens
> (art teacher) were married to each other at the time.
Oh cool.
> Gordon Jackson (music teacher) was in many productions, including
> "Tunes of Glory" and the "Upstairs Downstairs" TV show.
Yeah, I know I've seen him in many things before.
> Celia Johnson (headmistress)
> is best known for "Brief Encounter", which is a '40s "Bridges of
> Madison County" romantic tearjerker.
Never heard of this one.
> Pamela Franklin was a child actress who played the little
> girl in "The Innocents" horror movie.
Haven't heard of that one either. I suppose this must have been quite a
leap from a horror (assuming it's not of the Shining or Alien quality) to
this, where I thought she was superb (although I found the character to be
a little streewise for a 17(??) year old who lived a mostly pampered life
in school). How old was she when she did this movie?
Well thanks for the trivia. Oh, someone mentioned (perhaps as a joke)
that one of the people in the movie was married to Paul Neuman. I find
this hard to believe.
Thanks again for the message.
Maury
Michael O'Brien,,,
>Pamela Franklin was a child
>actress who played the little girl in "The Innocents" horror movie.
Pamela Franklin as an adult was in the horror movie "Hell House" based
on Matheson's book "The Legend of Hell House" about a group of psychic
investigators out to crack "The Mount Everest of haunted houses".
--
Michael O'Brien, mik...@charger.newhaven.edu
University of New Haven
106 Brownell St., New Haven, CT 06511
You have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
Brian Kraft
part of what ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> Well I found it somewhat hard to believe the Brodie character - I've met
>people that act like that, and it's always just that - an act. I guess
>this left me always waiting for the self-discovery portion of the movie,
>but that's not what it's about, far from it even when the art teacher
>finally gets over her she just blows it off.
>
> Other than that I didn't find many of the characters _overly_ emotional,
>although the Mary character was terribly overacted.
I meant that the acting is generally unrestrained throughout, and is
thought by some to be a prime example (pun intended) of an
eccentrically acted movie - which is why impressionists like to make
fun of it. (can't remember which ones.) It traveled the route from a
book to a play to a movie.
>Brodie was very sure her romantic ideals represented reality in shocking
>accuracy, but they all turn out to be wrong. That brings me back to the
>point above though, did Sandy do everything out of spite?
It's all about youthful rebelliousness against a controlling and
dominant elder; a favorite theme with novelists and movie makers,
but done here in a very personal way.
> By the way, when was the movie made? Was this a shocker for that
>season? Was this a "big" movie in terms of showings?
In the USA, it was the "B" movie on a double bill with "Butch Cassidy
and the Sundance Kid" (!) in 1969. Imagine the stay-or-leave domestic
disputes that ensued in theaters and drive-ins when the Western ended
and the "sissy" movie began. (I enjoyed both movies quite a bit.)
The big shocker that year was "Midnight Cowboy".
> Haven't heard of that one either. I suppose this must have been quite a
>leap from a horror (assuming it's not of the Shining or Alien quality) to
>this, where I thought she was superb (although I found the character to be
>a little streewise for a 17(??) year old who lived a mostly pampered life
>in school). How old was she when she did this movie?
19.
"The Innocents" is actually of the same caliber as more recent horror
films, as I think other fans of the movie might want to point out.
There was a video re-issue of "The Innocents" in 1996.
> Well thanks for the trivia. Oh, someone mentioned (perhaps as a joke)
>that one of the people in the movie was married to Paul Newman. I find
>this hard to believe.
Someone might have confused the movie with "Rachel, Rachel", or maybe
the faulty memory is the result of a domestic dispute back in 1969.
--
b h k
Maury Markowitz
In article <5k5d5a$7...@babyblue.cs.yale.edu>, mik...@charger.newhaven.edu
(Michael O'Brien,,,) wrote:
> Pamela Franklin as an adult was in the horror movie "Hell House" based
> on Matheson's book "The Legend of Hell House" about a group of psychic
> investigators out to crack "The Mount Everest of haunted houses".
Geez, sounds like her career was a long string of horrors with this one
in the middle!
Maury
Kolaga
>part of what ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>>Brodie was very sure her romantic ideals represented reality in shocking
>>accuracy, but they all turn out to be wrong. That brings me back to the
>>point above though, did Sandy do everything out of spite?
>
>It's all about youthful rebelliousness against a controlling and
>dominant elder; a favorite theme with novelists and movie makers,
>but done here in a very personal way.
This is my favorite part of the film. Jean Brodie is this
manipulative idealist who sends one of her girls off to fight
in the Spanish Civil War. Jean Brodie is not malacious -- she's
terribly misguided in a dangerous way.
So, among all of Jean's girls, there is one who is strong enough
to see that Jean is actually _bad_. She asserts her independence
by defying Miss Brodie's master plan for the world. Sandy struck
me as a free-thinking young woman who saw a chance to expose
hypocrisy and did so.
This is the act that leads to Jean Brodie's downfall. It's all
sort of like some Greek tragedy.
Maury Markowitz
In article <33663293...@news.iwvisp.com>, bhk...@gj.net (Brian
Kraft) wrote:
> I meant that the acting is generally unrestrained throughout, and is
> thought by some to be a prime example (pun intended) of an
> eccentrically acted movie - which is why impressionists like to make
> fun of it. (can't remember which ones.)
Hmmm, never looked at it that way.
> It traveled the route from a book to a play to a movie.
The play to movie conversion is somewhat obvious in hindsight. There's
a sudden shift in the movie from being centered around Jean, to being
centered around Sandy. This would be about the time where the curtains
would open again on the stage, whereas the movie had no such interruption
- thus my comments that I found it somewhat oddly paced through the middle
portion.
> It's all about youthful rebelliousness against a controlling and
> dominant elder
That was my feeling as well, but then that simple an explanation makes
Sandy's actions somewhat out of character. She's the smart one that sees
through the BS, yet her actions are somewhat petty. Oh well, not worth
dwelling on.
> In the USA, it was the "B" movie on a double bill with "Butch Cassidy
> and the Sundance Kid" (!) in 1969.
Wild!
> and the "sissy" movie began. (I enjoyed both movies quite a bit.)
Yeah, Butch & the kid is a classic as well.
> The big shocker that year was "Midnight Cowboy".
Rightfully so. When I was watching the movie I had the feeling it was
shot in the early 60's, something about the film colour. In the late 60's
I can see it being somewhat more "mild".
> 19.
Wow, she pulls off looking younger well.
> "The Innocents" is actually of the same caliber as more recent horror
> films, as I think other fans of the movie might want to point out.
> There was a video re-issue of "The Innocents" in 1996.
Huh, I'll look for it.
Maury
Maury Markowitz
In article <3368ae6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net (Kolaga) wrote:
> So, among all of Jean's girls, there is one who is strong enough
> to see that Jean is actually _bad_. She asserts her independence
> by defying Miss Brodie's master plan for the world. Sandy struck
> me as a free-thinking young woman who saw a chance to expose
> hypocrisy and did so.
Yeah, but _why_? She was already stealing the art teacher before any of
this "plan" comes to fruition. This leads one to believe that she does it
out of spite alone.
If that's true, and this is also her motive in the rest of the movie
too, it's hard to associate any ideals with her actions - one character
does "bad" things for romantic ideals, the other out of teenage rebellious
feelings?
If it is the case than she's doing it specifically to put an end to
Brodie because she thinks she's a dangerous influence, then why did she
shack up with the Art teacher before this happened?
Maury
BROYE
On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 02:36:46 GMT, Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net
(Kolaga) wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 20:08:59 GMT,
> bhk...@gj.net (Brian Kraft) wrote:
>
>>part of what ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>>
>>>Brodie was very sure her romantic ideals represented reality in shocking
>>>accuracy, but they all turn out to be wrong. That brings me back to the
>>>point above though, did Sandy do everything out of spite?
>>
>>It's all about youthful rebelliousness against a controlling and
>>dominant elder; a favorite theme with novelists and movie makers,
>>but done here in a very personal way.
>
>This is my favorite part of the film. Jean Brodie is this
>manipulative idealist who sends one of her girls off to fight
>in the Spanish Civil War. Jean Brodie is not malacious -- she's
>terribly misguided in a dangerous way.
>
>So, among all of Jean's girls, there is one who is strong enough
>to see that Jean is actually _bad_. She asserts her independence
>by defying Miss Brodie's master plan for the world. Sandy struck
>me as a free-thinking young woman who saw a chance to expose
>hypocrisy and did so.
>
>This is the act that leads to Jean Brodie's downfall. It's all
>sort of like some Greek tragedy.
Bingo you've got it. That is what the movie was all about. If you
get a chance read the novel. It very clear what you have just
written. 'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' was in fact first published
as a Novella in The New Yorker over two issues ( at least in the
United States). But this was when The New Yorker didn't have pictures
and the other folderol it has now.
James C. Kaufman
Gwen A Orel (gao...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: What happened to Robert Stephens?
: Boy, oh boy, was he a HUNK!!!!!
Sadly, he passed away about a year, maybe two years. I think it was
cancer.
In real life, he was married to Maggie Smith for a while.
J
: I Love this movie-- I always end up watching it twice when I rent it,
: and I even went and reread the book. Muriel Spark is a good writer,
: but imho the film is better than the book. More clear, and definitely
: more romantic. The girl in the book is meant to be ugly. Obviously,
: she's beautiful in the movie-- she just has glasses early on.
: They also made a t.v. series from this, I think.
: Gwen
: --
: "Live as one already dead." --Japanese saying
: I live in fear of not being misunderstood.-- Oscar wilde
Gwen A Orel
What happened to Robert Stephens?
Boy, oh boy, was he a HUNK!!!!!
I Love this movie-- I always end up watching it twice when I rent it,
Gwen A Orel
Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <3368ae6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>,
: Xiuhte...@worldnet.att.net (Kolaga) wrote:
: > So, among all of Jean's girls, there is one who is strong enough
: > to see that Jean is actually _bad_. She asserts her independence
: > by defying Miss Brodie's master plan for the world. Sandy struck
: > me as a free-thinking young woman who saw a chance to expose
: > hypocrisy and did so.
: Yeah, but _why_? She was already stealing the art teacher before any of
: this "plan" comes to fruition. This leads one to believe that she does it
: out of spite alone.
It always seemed to me that she was actually *in love* with the art
teacher. It may have begun from a kind of mediated desire, but I
think she fell for him because he's so much that Jean is not. *Jean*
would like to believe that Sandy's actions are all about her, but imo
they *aren't*. Jean is so self-centered she even thinks other people's
sex drives are about her but they're not.
: If that's true, and this is also her motive in the rest of the movie
: too, it's hard to associate any ideals with her actions - one character
: does "bad" things for romantic ideals, the other out of teenage rebellious
: feelings?
: If it is the case than she's doing it specifically to put an end to
: Brodie because she thinks she's a dangerous influence, then why did she
: shack up with the Art teacher before this happened?
Lust! Love! Sheesh.
Gael McGear Sweeney
In article <336b4afa...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
BR...@ix.netcom.com (BROYE) writes:
> >So, among all of Jean's girls, there is one who is strong enough
> >to see that Jean is actually _bad_. She asserts her independence
> >by defying Miss Brodie's master plan for the world. Sandy struck
> >me as a free-thinking young woman who saw a chance to expose
> >hypocrisy and did so.
> >
> >This is the act that leads to Jean Brodie's downfall. It's all
> >sort of like some Greek tragedy.
>
> Bingo you've got it. That is what the movie was all about. If you
> get a chance read the novel. It very clear what you have just
> written. 'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' was in fact first published
> as a Novella in The New Yorker over two issues ( at least in the
> United States). But this was when The New Yorker didn't have pictures
> and the other folderol it has now.
The play version is interesting, too, in that it gives an idea of what
happened to each girl. The play takes place in flashback, narrated by a
nun who has written a bestselling book on ethics and religion. She
tells an interviewers about how she learned the meaning of ethics --
Wham! It's Sandy!
Gael
Gael McGear Sweeney
gswe...@syr.edu
http://users.aol.com/gaelmcgear/gaelpage.html
************************************************************************
*
* The Poptarts/Knickers in a Twist *
"To the Toppermost of the Poppermost!"
Fracci
Re: The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie
From: bhk...@gj.net (Brian Kraft)
Message-ID: <3365bb1d...@imcom.com>
>ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>If you love those Scottish accents, watch "Tunes of Glory" by the same
>director (Ronald Neame).
And Whiskey Galore aka Tight Little Island (l949) for lots of authentic
Scots accents, funny movie about the uproar caused when the islands
shipment of Whiskey goes down in a shipwreck.
>There's lots of movie trivia here. Maggie Smith and Robert Stephens
>(art teacher) were married to each other at the time. Gordon Jackson
>(music teacher) was in many productions, including "Tunes of Glory"
>and the "Upstairs Downstairs" TV show.
And see Tight Little Island with a very young Gordon Jackson & Joan
Greenwood as a Scots lass. One of Jacksons more recent movies The Shooting
Party (l984).
Francine.
jmco...@ix.netcom.com
In article <5klr15$f...@news.ycc.yale.edu>, jck...@pantheon.yale.edu
says...
> Gwen A Orel (gao...@pitt.edu) wrote:
> : What happened to Robert Stephens?
> Sadly, he passed away about a year, maybe two years. I think it was
> cancer.
A real loss. In addition to "The Prime..." remember how great he was
as the Prince in "Romeo and Juliet"? A truly masterful presence, even
in a small role.
(Not to mention other brilliant roles)
> In real life, he was married to Maggie Smith for a while.
And I believe it was their son, Toby Stephens, who dated Jennifer Ehle
(of "Pride and Prejudice" fame) for a while.
JMC
Maury Markowitz
In article <5klcii$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
Orel) wrote:
> Lust! Love! Sheesh.
Well maybe, but that's certainly not what I saw happening. I saw it as
a planned out move in order to piss off Jean. This seems most clear when
she walks out on him.
Maury
Gwen A Orel
Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <5klcii$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
: Orel) wrote:
: > Lust! Love! Sheesh.
: Maury
Not to me-- she walks out on him out of *jealousy*. His portrait
of *her* llooks like Miss Brodie. That would hurt any woman.
Maury Markowitz
In article <5kr1t7$1...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
Orel) wrote:
> Not to me-- she walks out on him out of *jealousy*. His portrait
> of *her* llooks like Miss Brodie. That would hurt any woman.
Sure, but remember the scene over tea at Jean's apartment? The
implication was that she disliked Jean's constant statements to the effect
that she was not good looking, and that the "other one" (forget the name)
was and would thus become Teddy's lover. Sandy's reaction at this point
implied to me that she was going to set out to prove her wrong, and that
it was not a matter of "love at first sight".
As to the walking out scene, again I have a different take on it. She
was certainly pissed off about the painting, but I saw this as her being
pissed off because she _failed_ to make him forget Jean. I did not see
pure jealousy being her motive, or she would not have been as friendly
with the other girl that was being set up (and Teddy does note her as
being the "pretty one").
As you say it may have been as simple as you like to see it, but to me
that would belittle what the rest of the movie was doing, particularly in
ragards to Sandy's actions. That's not to say that my take strikes me as
more "realistic" (far from it, Sandy struck me as being too mature to be
believable) but the movie certainly doesn't strike me as trying to tell a
story of teen lust.
Maury
Gwen A Orel
Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <5kr1t7$1...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
: Orel) wrote:
: > Not to me-- she walks out on him out of *jealousy*. His portrait
: > of *her* llooks like Miss Brodie. That would hurt any woman.
: Sure, but remember the scene over tea at Jean's apartment? The
: implication was that she disliked Jean's constant statements to the effect
: that she was not good looking, and that the "other one" (forget the name)
: was and would thus become Teddy's lover. Sandy's reaction at this point
: implied to me that she was going to set out to prove her wrong, and that
: it was not a matter of "love at first sight".
Once again, I see that as more pique at being dismissed that anyone
would feel. I agree that all of this probably heightened her interest
in the artist, but is not the sole reason.
: As to the walking out scene, again I have a different take on it. She
: was certainly pissed off about the painting, but I saw this as her being
: pissed off because she _failed_ to make him forget Jean. I did not see
: pure jealousy being her motive, or she would not have been as friendly
: with the other girl that was being set up (and Teddy does note her as
: being the "pretty one").
Huh? She was friendly with the other one because the other one wa
her *friend*. She knows-- as you seem to miss-- that Teddy was not
sexually interested in the other one, nor in love with her. But Teddy
was in love with Miss Brodie.
: As you say it may have been as simple as you like to see it, but to me
: that would belittle what the rest of the movie was doing, particularly in
: ragards to Sandy's actions. That's not to say that my take strikes me as
Au contraire, by seeing Sandy solely as a manipulative opponent of Jean's
you are treating her just as Jean does herself. The point is that
despite what Miss Brodie would like to believe, *emotions* cannot
be rationalized and plotted.
: more "realistic" (far from it, Sandy struck me as being too mature to be
: believable) but the movie certainly doesn't strike me as trying to tell a
: story of teen lust.
"Teen lust" is your phrase, not mine. I see her as being in love with
Teddy, and trying to find herself-- come of age, if you will-- and
rebelling against *anyone's* preconceived idea of how or what she will
turn out to be. Despite Miss Brodie's *plans* she really didn't understand
anyone around her, whi=ch is why she couldn't conceive of Sandy being
Teddy's lover. In her world, Teddy could only be interested in "the
pretty one." But in reality, Sandy's insolence and fire *attract* him.
Gwen A Orel
p.s. to Maury--
watch the movie again, and check out Sandy's face and actions
with Teddy before she sees the portrait. Then dare to say she's
just manipulating him, and not in love with him!
The portrait disappoints her and *hurts* her-- yet she tells
Miss Brodie she *is* Teddy's lover, not *was*.
Maury Markowitz
In article <5ktih7$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
Orel) wrote:
> Once again, I see that as more pique at being dismissed that anyone
> would feel.
Sure, but that's, IMHO, what *drove* her to do the things she did.
> I agree that all of this probably heightened her interest
> in the artist, but is not the sole reason.
I certainly felt it was, at least in the context presented.
> Huh? She was friendly with the other one because the other one wa
> her *friend*. She knows-- as you seem to miss-- that Teddy was not
> sexually interested in the other one
Exactly. If this was mearly her being interested in Teddy, she would
not have been able to maintain a friendship with the other girl.
> Au contraire, by seeing Sandy solely as a manipulative opponent of Jean's
> you are treating her just as Jean does herself.
But that's what the movie is _about_. The movie is not about (as far as
I'm concerned) a teenage kid who wants to get laid.
> despite what Miss Brodie would like to believe, *emotions* cannot
> be rationalized and plotted.
Yet you feel she would be able to be jealous of one person and not
another. This does not appear to follow.
> "Teen lust" is your phrase, not mine.
No, yours left out "teen", but it did include "sheesh".
> Teddy, and trying to find herself-- come of age, if you will-- and
> rebelling against *anyone's* preconceived idea of how or what she will
> turn out to be.
Look at it this way, if that scene was removed from the movie, does the
basic plot change? No. However, you are suggesting that the reason this
scene was included was for a completely different purpose, one entirely
out of the context of the rest of the movie - "just 'cause" so to speak.
You see this movie as something to do with Sandy growing up, and
otherwised removed from significance in the overall plot. I see this
scene specifically as a demonstration of how far Sandy will go to "get"
Jean. That is a major difference!
This is not mearly a coming of age movie, Lucas is mearly a coming of
age movie. This movie is about the battle between Jean and Sandy. In
that context ascribing her affair with Teddy to nothing more than her
_own_ desires seems unsupportable.
Maury
Tony Kondaks
Maury Markowitz <ma...@softarc.com> wrote:
The movie is called "The Prime of Miss Jeanne Brodie"
: I have to say, I find the middle somewhat rushed. At one point the main
: "Brodie girl" (Sandy) is a Jr. noting how disgusting it would be to
: undress in front of a guy, five minutes later she's a senior, posing nude
: for her lover the art teacher.
That was one of the first nude scenes I had ever seen in a movie.
I was about 16 years old and living in New York City at the time. On 72nd
Street and Broadway was a movie theatre that played "just rans" double
features for a dollar. "The Prime of Miss Jeanne Brodie" (for which
Maggie Smith won Best Actress oscar) played with, I believe, "Patton".
I sat through the double feature on 2 or 3 consecutive days just to see
the nude scene, which also gave me my first boner in a movie theatre.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tkondaks __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____
tkon...@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ /
/ / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ /-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gwen A Orel
Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <5ktik6$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
: Orel) wrote:
: > watch the movie again, and check out Sandy's face and actions
: > with Teddy before she sees the portrait. Then dare to say she's
: > just manipulating him, and not in love with him!
: You see this as "damb, he's not in love with me". I saw this as "damb,
: he hasn't fallen out of love with her".
It's both. My point was to look aat her happiness *before* that.
She's obviously thrilled and in love, imo. Yes, she also fancies
the idea of herself as a glamorous and grown-up girl-- but her
happiness has nothing to do with Jean.
Maury Markowitz
> watch the movie again, and check out Sandy's face and actions
> with Teddy before she sees the portrait. Then dare to say she's
> just manipulating him, and not in love with him!
You see this as "damb, he's not in love with me". I saw this as "damb,
he hasn't fallen out of love with her".
Maury
Gwen A Orel
Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <5ktih7$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
: Orel) wrote:
: > Once again, I see that as more pique at being dismissed that anyone
: > would feel.
: Sure, but that's, IMHO, what *drove* her to do the things she did.
I don't know what you mean. The pique is jealousy which is based in
love.
: > I agree that all of this probably heightened her interest
: > in the artist, but is not the sole reason.
: I certainly felt it was, at least in the context presented.
: > Huh? She was friendly with the other one because the other one wa
: > her *friend*. She knows-- as you seem to miss-- that Teddy was not
: > sexually interested in the other one
: Exactly. If this was mearly her being interested in Teddy, she would
: not have been able to maintain a friendship with the other girl.
NO. You didn't read what I wrote. Sandy knows, as Jean does not,
that the other girl is *not a threat* because Sandy knows that Teddy's
sex drive is *not* determined by Miss Brodie.
Women generally don't feel jealous at having their loved one find
another woman pretty if they know at the same time that the loved
one is sexually uninterested in the other woman.
: But that's what the movie is _about_. The movie is not about (as far as
: I'm concerned) a teenage kid who wants to get laid.
I never said it was. I'm beginning to feel annoyed with you; you
haven't understood any of my points! The movie is about
Brodie's failure to understand what really drives people. You,
like Brodie, can only see Sandy as driven by the need to counter
her teachr. You are, in fact, making the same mistake Jean does.
: > despite what Miss Brodie would like to believe, *emotions* cannot
: > be rationalized and plotted.
: Yet you feel she would be able to be jealous of one person and not
: another. This does not appear to follow.
Read what I wrote above. Sandy *knows* she need not be jealous of
the other girl, who has no hold on Teddy's heart. Jean, however,
*does*.
: > "Teen lust" is your phrase, not mine.
: No, yours left out "teen", but it did include "sheesh".
???
: > Teddy, and trying to find herself-- come of age, if you will-- and
: > rebelling against *anyone's* preconceived idea of how or what she will
: > turn out to be.
: Look at it this way, if that scene was removed from the movie, does the
: basic plot change? No. However, you are suggesting that the reason this
: scene was included was for a completely different purpose, one entirely
: out of the context of the rest of the movie - "just 'cause" so to speak.
What scene?
: You see this movie as something to do with Sandy growing up, and
: otherwised removed from significance in the overall plot. I see this
: scene specifically as a demonstration of how far Sandy will go to "get"
: Jean. That is a major difference!
It is, and your interpretation is *wrong*. :) I've also read the
book, btw. Sandy is definitely the major character, and while she
does counter Jean, it is because she sees *through* Jean.
: This is not mearly a coming of age movie, Lucas is mearly a coming of
: age movie. This movie is about the battle between Jean and Sandy. In
: that context ascribing her affair with Teddy to nothing more than her
: _own_ desires seems unsupportable.
No, Maury. The battle is *about* the inability of making neat plans
where human weaknesses and emotions are involved. Sandy knows that,
but Jean doesn't. But to say Sandy only gets involved with Teddy to
piss of Jean is to make Sandy *into* Jean. She *isn't*. She's clear
sighted, and natural.
toa...@idt.net
I never liked the movie all that much, and I find it interesting that
it can get people so worked up thirty years (almost) later. But I
thought the casting of Sandy was inspired. She was a boyish contrast
both to Jean and her other protege, and she was very boyishly sexy. In
addition, it seems to me that both Teddy and Sandy enjoyed thwarting
Jean's plans for him--almost as if she were their mother! But it meant
all their plans had failed, when he had to admit he was still obsessed
with Jean--come to think of it, the idea of the movie as an oedipal
drama works quite well. I didn't get the feeling Sandy was exactly in
love with him. She was in love with the situation, with her new-found
importance, and perhaps, her surprising sexiness. I can't remember the
name of the actress but she was the best thing in the film, with or
without clothes.
David Kaiser
Maury Markowitz
> thought the casting of Sandy was inspired.
Me too, that's why I liked it so much. Up until she becomes the main
focus of the movie, it's actually kinda boring.
> both to Jean and her other protege, and she was very boyishly sexy.
Well I didn't think she was that sexy, but I did love the scene when she
left Teddy's apartment - one minute she's his lover, the next she's the
asexual buttoned down schoolgirl again. I though it was a great bit of
film.
> drama works quite well. I didn't get the feeling Sandy was exactly in
> love with him. She was in love with the situation, with her new-found
> importance, and perhaps, her surprising sexiness.
That's exactly how I saw it too, in love with the empowerment, not the guy.
> name of the actress but she was the best thing in the film
Well I though Maggy Smith did a good job too, but I had a hard time
relating to the character because it was so over the top I found it hard
to believe.
Maury
Maury Markowitz
In article <5l093u$j...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
Orel) wrote:
> I don't know what you mean. The pique is jealousy which is based in
> love.
In your eyes perhaps, in mine it's failure.
> NO. You didn't read what I wrote.
Yes I did, I just don't agree with it. The logic does not hold, if it's
only jelosy
> that the other girl is *not a threat* because Sandy knows that Teddy's
> sex drive is *not* determined by Miss Brodie.
Amazing what a selective jealousy you feel comfortable ascribing to a
character that's supposed to be 17. Let's say that Jean's plan _did_
work, what then? Oh, but she _knows_ it won't (I suppose clairvoyance
from her other movies?) so she can put it aside in this case.
Nope, sorry, doesn't make sense. You say she's with Teddy effectively
of her own free will (lust as you put it), then turn around and state
she's completely in control of the situtation. An interesting dichotomy.
Instead I believe she was "driven" to Teddy specifically to upset Jean
and turn him around. At this point the "issues" simply go away. She's
not jealous of the other girl because her "mission" is essentially
complete the first time she gets him in the sack.
Sandy was tired of hearing that she wasn't the pretty one. I see the
rest of the movie as "oh yeah?", as opposed to "gee, he's so cool".
> Women generally don't feel jealous at having their loved one find
> another woman pretty if they know at the same time that the loved
> one is sexually uninterested in the other woman.
Well I speak from personal experience here, that's true only about 50%
of the time. However in this case let's remember it _was_ all about sex
right from the beginning.
> I never said it was. I'm beginning to feel annoyed with you; you
> haven't understood any of my points!
I understand your points perfectly, I just don't agree with them. If
this annoys you you're certainly writing in the wrong medium.
> The movie is about
> Brodie's failure to understand what really drives people.
Yes.
> like Brodie, can only see Sandy as driven by the need to counter
> her teachr.
No, I say merely that it follows the plot better if you use this
device. I see no randomness in the movie, which is effectively what that
issue becomes if it's nothing more than a love affair.
> You are, in fact, making the same mistake Jean does.
Let me see if I understand this correctly. My attempt to ascribe the
character's motives in terms of the clear aims of the character in the
rest of the movie thus means that I'm "making the same mistake" as a
FICTIONAL CHARACTER?!
Oh, but your argument that she was actually in love with Teddy, thus
ascribing a different set of motives to the same fictional character is
NOT pretending to understand people's motives?
> Read what I wrote above. Sandy *knows* she need not be jealous of
> the other girl, who has no hold on Teddy's heart. Jean, however,
> *does*.
Jean does what? Feels jealous? She's trying to get rid of him. Sandy
can't know she doesn't have to be jealous, Jean's plan may have worked.
> : No, yours left out "teen", but it did include "sheesh".
>
> ???
Don't you remember your own words? You wrote this in the first message.
> : Look at it this way, if that scene was removed from the movie, does the
> : basic plot change? No. However, you are suggesting that the reason this
> : scene was included was for a completely different purpose, one entirely
> : out of the context of the rest of the movie - "just 'cause" so to speak.
>
> What scene?
I give up.
Maury
Gwen A Orel
Subject: Re: The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie
Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies.past-films
References: <maury-28049...@199.166.204.230> <3365bb1d...@imcom.com> <maury-29049...@199.166.204.230> <33663293...@news.iwvisp.com> <3368ae6b...@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <maury-30049...@199.166.204.230> <5klcii$5...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <maury-07059...@198.133.37.101> <5kr1t7$1...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <maury-08059...@199.166.204.230> <5ktih7$a...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu> <maury-09059...@199.166.204.230> <5l093u$j...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.ed
u> <maury-12059...@199.166.204.230>
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Maury Markowitz (ma...@softarc.com) wrote:
: In article <5l093u$j...@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, gao...@pitt.edu (Gwen A
: Orel) wrote:
: > I don't know what you mean. The pique is jealousy which is based in
: > love.
: In your eyes perhaps, in mine it's failure.
: > NO. You didn't read what I wrote.
: Yes I did, I just don't agree with it. The logic does not hold, if it's
: only jelosy
No, it holds-- jealousy is not *logical*. It's based on a sense of threat.
You seem to be confusing jealousy with mere possessiveness. They aren't
the same.
: > that the other girl is *not a threat* because Sandy knows that Teddy's
: > sex drive is *not* determined by Miss Brodie.
: Amazing what a selective jealousy you feel comfortable ascribing to a
: character that's supposed to be 17. Let's say that Jean's plan _did_
: work, what then? Oh, but she _knows_ it won't (I suppose clairvoyance
: from her other movies?) so she can put it aside in this case.
: Nope, sorry, doesn't make sense. You say she's with Teddy effectively
: of her own free will (lust as you put it), then turn around and state
: she's completely in control of the situtation. An interesting dichotomy.
That's not what I said. You simply show how little you understand women's
feelings, let alone highly emotional young girls. I suggest you pick up
any issue of _Seventeen_ for more insight. What *Sandy* knows, and what
YOU don't, is that the other girl is not a threat because *TEDDY IS
NOT
INTERESTED IN HER.* Neither is the other girl "after" Teddy! Sandy
has no reason to be jealous.
: Instead I believe she was "driven" to Teddy specifically to upset Jean
: and turn him around. At this point the "issues" simply go away. She's
: not jealous of the other girl because her "mission" is essentially
: complete the first time she gets him in the sack.
\
You accuse *me* of overcomplicating Sandy? hah! You ascribe motivations
to her that befit a Macchiavellian politician, not an adolescent girl.
Remember the movie? *He kisses her* and the next scene we see, they are
in bed.
: Sandy was tired of hearing that she wasn't the pretty one. I see the
: rest of the movie as "oh yeah?", as opposed to "gee, he's so cool".
Huh?
: Well I speak from personal experience here, that's true only about 50%
: of the time. However in this case let's remember it _was_ all about sex
: right from the beginning.
Huh? THAT sounds like you're agreeing with me. Once again, you
are amazingly authoratiative of women's feelings for a man. May I suggest
your ability to read this character may be limited by the fact that
you are *excluding* any of the usual woman's feelings from the equation,
and analysing Sandy as if she were a male character in a revenge tragedy?
: No, I say merely that it follows the plot better if you use this
: device. I see no randomness in the movie, which is effectively what that
: issue becomes if it's nothing more than a love affair.
"Nothing more than a love affair?" As if love affairs-- particularly
a young girls's *first* affair, in which she loses her virginity--
are *trivial*? Huh?
: > You are, in fact, making the same mistake Jean does.
: Let me see if I understand this correctly. My attempt to ascribe the
: character's motives in terms of the clear aims of the character in the
: rest of the movie thus means that I'm "making the same mistake" as a
: FICTIONAL CHARACTER?!
No. You are making the mistake of limiting Sandy to *Jean's* plans
for her, and not allowing her to have feelings outside of them. You
limit Sandy to being purely reactive to Jean, when the whole point is
that she is not.
: Oh, but your argument that she was actually in love with Teddy, thus
: ascribing a different set of motives to the same fictional character is
: NOT pretending to understand people's motives?
: > Read what I wrote above. Sandy *knows* she need not be jealous of
: > the other girl, who has no hold on Teddy's heart. Jean, however,
: > *does*.
: Jean does what? Feels jealous? She's trying to get rid of him. Sandy
: can't know she doesn't have to be jealous, Jean's plan may have worked.
Jean has a hold on Teddy's heart. It is this that Sandy resents.
: > : No, yours left out "teen", but it did include "sheesh".
: >
: > ???
: Don't you remember your own words? You wrote this in the first message.
The question mark was "your point?" My sheesh does not imply "teen
affair."
: I give up.
Good. ;)
Paul Baker
In article <maury-12059...@199.166.204.230> ma...@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes:
>
>In article <337653...@idt.net>, toa...@idt.net wrote:
>
>> thought the casting of Sandy was inspired.
>
> Me too, that's why I liked it so much. Up until she becomes the main
>focus of the movie, it's actually kinda boring.
There are some interesting scenes before that though - starting with where
the headmistress finds the letter, and Jean does her impassioned speech,
then argues with both the men in her life.
> > both to Jean and her other protege, and she was very boyishly sexy.
>
> Well I didn't think she was that sexy, but I did love the scene when she
>left Teddy's apartment - one minute she's his lover, the next she's the
>asexual buttoned down schoolgirl again. I though it was a great bit of
>film.
She is not a very nice person though - torn between wanting to be like
Jean, and hating her. I thought that when the artist paints Sandy, with
Jean's face - that's one of the turning points of the film.
>> drama works quite well. I didn't get the feeling Sandy was exactly in
>> love with him. She was in love with the situation, with her new-found
>> importance, and perhaps, her surprising sexiness.
Jean was a horrible person - the bit where she wanted one of the other
girls to "take her place" with the artist was a bit too incestuous.
>> name of the actress but she was the best thing in the film
>
> Well I though Maggy Smith did a good job too, but I had a hard time
>relating to the character because it was so over the top I found it hard
>to believe.
I read the book too, and found the film to be better - it captures the
spirit of the thing so well, and Maggie Smith is excellent - it's her
best performance. It's one of those weird films which, although set in
the 1930s, was made in the 1960s, so has the imprint of both times
upon it. "My Fair Lady" is another which is like this.
My favourite lines were:
"6 inches is more than adequate. Anything more is vulgar." (Jean talking
about how wide a window should be left open, or is this a subtext for
some sexual education of her gels?)
"I'm putting a stop to you....You're bad for people." - Sandy sends
Jean "down the banks".
"I think you always called her Mary McGregor because you always had
such difficulty remembering her name!"
Paul Baker
England.
R.I. LuSan
For me, the end, when Sandy walks away, hearing in her head: "When
you're a Brodie Girl, you're a Brodie Girl for life." capped the theme.
She'd suceeded in destroyng her mentor (as protegees are wont to do) but
she'll never escape all of the Jean Brodie which she will carry inside of
herself for the rest of her life.
Maury Markowitz
In article <EAFEt...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, eia...@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Paul
Baker) wrote:
> There are some interesting scenes before that though - starting with where
> the headmistress finds the letter, and Jean does her impassioned speech,
> then argues with both the men in her life.
The whole scene when the girls discover Jean's nightgown under
whats-his-name's pillow was kinda cute too.
> She is not a very nice person though - torn between wanting to be like
> Jean, and hating her.
Well that's my whole take on it too. I felt she was overly mature for a
17 year old as well. I don't know, I just don't know many that could pull
off the various plans she did in the movie.
> I thought that when the artist paints Sandy, with
> Jean's face - that's one of the turning points of the film.
Yup, although the earlier scene of the painting of his family was horrid.
> Jean was a horrible person - the bit where she wanted one of the other
> girls to "take her place" with the artist was a bit too incestuous.
Sorta, but I've had the same thing happen to me, soooo...
> "6 inches is more than adequate. Anything more is vulgar." (Jean talking
> about how wide a window should be left open, or is this a subtext for
> some sexual education of her gels?)
Yes.
Maury
Maury Markowitz
In article <3381FB...@hacemx.hac.com.NOSPAM>, "R.I. LuSan"
<ril...@hacemx.hac.com.NOSPAM> wrote:
> For me, the end, when Sandy walks away, hearing in her head: "When
> you're a Brodie Girl, you're a Brodie Girl for life." capped the theme.
Well shot too. Notice how the rest of the girls are walking away
together, with her a half pace behind? Nice.
> She'd suceeded in destroyng her mentor (as protegees are wont to do) but
> she'll never escape all of the Jean Brodie which she will carry inside of
> herself for the rest of her life.
Yup.
Maury