To whatever British folk might be here--Of Human Bondage
Jim Beaver
character speaks) as scorned in the UK as it is in the U.S.? There's
a tendency in the U.S., it seems, to make fun of almost any American
attempting any British accent, yet I'm reminded of the story of
American critics condemning Robert Mitchum's accent in THE SECRET
CEREMONY while British critics praised it as a masterful success at a
North Country accent. Is Davis really that bad, or is that something
that's simply become true because a lot of people who don't know
better say it's true?
Jim Beaver
Mack A. Damia
Where are you reading these criticisms? I can't find one.
Not that I lived in London, but her accent is "polished-Cockney" if
there's such a thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-w5cuWI5o&NR=1
It doesn't sound all that bad; it sounds as though she was a Cockney
who was trying to lose her accent.
There are different Cockney accents, too - some broader than others.
Probably just something her critics could jump on.
Adam Cameron
>
> Not that I lived in London, but her accent is "polished-Cockney" if
> there's such a thing.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-w5cuWI5o&NR=1
>
> It doesn't sound all that bad; it sounds as though she was a Cockney
> who was trying to lose her accent.
It sounds to me like someone who went to the Dick Van Dyke School of
English Accents.
:-(
I understand what you're saying about "polished-Cockney", but I'm not sure
a) that's what she was going for; b) she maintains it from one sentence to
the next.
--
Adam
(resident of East London, but not a Pom)
globular
I'd just like to add for the benefit of those in the U.S., the
Australian accent isn't the New Zealand one. The New Zealand one is the
one that seems used in imitations.
Mack A. Damia
I agree with you, but it's a reasonable explanation. And somebody who
is trying to lose the Cockney accent is going to lapse back into it at
times - so it would not sound consistent.
Similar to Eliza at Ascot.
tomcervo
I had a look at the existing comments on the net. A couple of
googlebook results come up with the fact that Davis hired a
Englishwoman as a housekeeper to study her accent, and thought that
she was trying to assume an accent that wasn't hers by birth--and
THAT'S what Davis seized upon. No doubt there's an 'enry 'iggins out
there who can tell you how far it is from Cockney, but the only
meaningful measure is how well it works in the film
.
The rest is snobbery--the old SCTV skit "The King Who Would Be Pope"
applies here: no American, aside from Katherine Hepburn, dare appear
in a film with real ENGLISH actors--sometimes American, sometimes
British. For the Americans, I think it's the cultural cringe. For the
British it's more complex. The British cinema in 1934 was too anemic
to produce a barnburner like that, so damn Hollywood for filling the
void. It's like "Objective Burma"--the British columnists excoriated
Hollywood in general and Flynn in particular for making a movie about
American soldiers in a predominantly British (actually Indian) theatre
of war. George MacDonald Fraser, who actually fought in that war, said
it was entirely fair for Hollywood to show American in Burma, since
there WERE Americans in Burma, and that the British uproar was based
in the cultural and journalistic neglect by the British of their own
forces in Burma, who gave themselves the nickname of "Forgotten Army"
based on that neglect.
I mean, I know some people who can't bear to watch "They Were
Expendable" because they used the wrong PT boats. Tough being them.
tomcervo
While there are some prominant NZ actors in film, I can't think of one
who uses an NZ accent.
Flasherly
That's like saying it's bloody inexcusable of Reeves' rotten-arsed
muck-up Coppola let him get away with in Dracula, not indeed near a
shrift intended by Campbell's barbarian cowpokes opposite British
actors Hopkins and Grant. All but for minor moments to cede Winona in
her saving grace, immortally captured over all time -- hauntingly as
she bounces briskly down no less than several stair-steps --
marvelously revealed by a gait in the sheerness of nothing more need
clad, merest words nevermore shan't cite;-- For, only an Oldman can
stand right before her blinded by that inescapable justice, to kneel
in concession and proclaim to her utmost servility. Quite right,
especially after being such a dreary beast about buggering-up her very
and dearest best friend, Juicy Lucy.
Dave in Toronto
> It doesn't sound all that bad; it sounds as though she was a Cockney
> who was trying to lose her accent.
In my day it was called "Kensington English" (I left the UK in 1961 so
perhaps that expression isn't used any more). Basically it was
Cockneys trying to talk 'posh' - It was used a lot by people serving
the public, shop assistants etc. John Cleese mimics it perfectly in
some of his sketches.
I recall on early British TV a very funny sketch by Peter Sellers and
Cardew 'the cad' Robinson who played a couple of boyhood friends who
meet after a long absence. Both came from humble roots but had moved
up the world and had become successful businessmen who had learned how
to talk 'posh'. During the meeting they get into an argument and the
veneer gradually slips and at the end they are berating each other in
broad Cockney.
Dave M
Dave in Toronto
> Hollywood in general and Flynn in particular for making a movie about
> American soldiers in a predominantly British (actually Indian) theatre
> of war. George MacDonald Fraser, who actually fought in that war, said
> it was entirely fair for Hollywood to show American in Burma, since
> there WERE Americans in Burma, and that the British uproar was based
> in the cultural and journalistic neglect by the British of their own
> forces in Burma, who gave themselves the nickname of "Forgotten Army"
> based on that neglect.
>
The British uproar about _Objective Burma_ was much ado about nothing
- Brits were hyper-sensitve at that time and the movie was banned for
a while - When I finally saw it I wondered what all the fuss was about
- I seem to recall that there was an early scene where Flynn is
briefed by a British officer and I thought it was a fine movie about
jungle warfare and as Fraser says there were Americans in Burma and as
it was American movie it was only natural they would make a movie
about them.
You have probably read it already but Fraser's autobiographical book
_Quartered Safe Out Here (1992_ is about the "Forgotten Army" - a
polygot groups of Brits, East Indians, Sikhs, Gurkhas, Africans and
Fijians - Despite its grim setting it does have its lighter moments.
Dave M
tomcervo
I came across Fraser's opinion in his "Hollywood History of the
World". In it he describes that neglect from home, including the
detail that his unit went months without even seeing a movie. When
they did it was "Northern Pursuit", starring . . . Errol Flynn.
One of the things that dismayed him about "Platoon" was that the men
in it were nothing like the Americans he knew in Burma.
Dave in Toronto
>
> - Show quoted text -
It appeared that Hollywood had learnt its lesson from the British
reception to _Objective Burma_ when a few years later they made
_Twelve O'Clock High_ about American airmen stationed in Britain.
British reviewers were delighted when Gregory Peck made a speech to
his demoralized aircrew that pointed out that the Brtitish airmen had
been suffering far longer than the Americans and hadn't weakened.
Disillusionment set it when it was discovered that the scene was shot
specifically for the British market and that the American version did
not have the scene.
Dave M
tomcervo
It sounds rather like the reaction to "Saving Private Ryan". The Brit
jouros tried very hard to drum up a five minute hate because the Yanks
had made a movie about Americans landing in Normandy without
mentioning the British landing in Normandy. Because we all know the
big budget productions the British film industry made about the
Normandy landings . . . . oh, wait a minute. There weren't any.
The British press tradition of complaining that the Americans won't
fight their war for them has now be replaced by the British press
complaining that they won't make their war movies for them. So I don't
have a lot of respect for the august traditions carried on by the
Sunday Tit and the Daily Bum,
(http://uk.specials.yahoo.com/well-i-never/23037224/the-40th-
anniversary-of-the-suns-page-3-girl)
or their writers complaining about Bette Davis and the accent she
used. Who they expect to be cast--Diana Wynyard?
Mack A. Damia
Not widely known but well over 50% of the troops landing in Normandy
were British.
Jim Beaver
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 01:35:28 -0800 (PST), Jim Beaver
>
> >1934 version. Is Bette Davis's accent (Cockney or whatever her
> >character speaks) as scorned in the UK as it is in the U.S.? There's
> >a tendency in the U.S., it seems, to make fun of almost any American
> >attempting any British accent, yet I'm reminded of the story of
> >American critics condemning Robert Mitchum's accent in THE SECRET
> >CEREMONY while British critics praised it as a masterful success at a
> >North Country accent. Is Davis really that bad, or is that something
> >that's simply become true because a lot of people who don't know
> >better say it's true?
>
> Where are you reading these criticisms? I can't find one.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025586/board/nest/138746590 This isn't
professional criticism, but the thread contains the gist of what I'm
talking about. I've seen the same sort of remarks in professional
American criticism and historical overviews--here are some quotes:
"Bette Davis’ Cockney accent may sound painfully affected a la Dick
Van Dyke, especially to English ears...." --Richard Raymond,
Suite101.com
"And the accent! In all of history, there has surely never been a
worse attempt at a cockney accent. Ever. We can hear that she's
struggling with it - she mispronounces Champagne as something like
'Sham-paaaaaan' and her own clipped British voice is clearly audible
beneath it all. It's a horrible thing to see such a great actress in a
terrifically demeaning role....it's quite likely that you'll switch
off well before Bette's one fiery speech, which is itself marred by
her horrible forced accent." --(apparently) Tom Keogh, Openflix.com
(His reference to Davis's "own clipped British voice" makes his
perspicacity suspect.)
"Her Cockney accent is almost laughable by today's thespic standards."
--Gary @. Tooze, DVDBeaver.com
I don't find much from 1934-era reviews regarding her accent.
Jim Beaver
Mack A. Damia
These (armchair) critics just want to make noise. That's the way it's
become these days.
You can get one-hundred Cockneys, and they'll all sound slightly
different - just as we all do.
Thanks for your reply!
globular
Only actors in the U.S put on NZ accents thinking it's Australian.
Adam Cameron
>>> Australian accent isn't the New Zealand one. The New Zealand one is the
>>> one that seems used in imitations.
>>
>> While there are some prominant NZ actors in film, I can't think of one
>> who uses an NZ accent.
>
> Only actors in the U.S put on NZ accents thinking it's Australian.
Really? What's an example of that happening?
My normal reaction to those rare occasions a USAn actor needs to play a
Kiwi is that they always come off sounding like an Australian.
The only attempt by *anyone* at a NZ accent I can recall recently was
Anthony Hopkins in the World's Fastest Indian, and he did a reasonable job.
--
Adam
(Kiwi)
Adam Cameron
> different - just as we all do.
However I challenge you to find *one* of them that sounds like Davis did in
that scene that was posted...
--
Adam
tomcervo
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 18:47:43 -0800 (PST), tomcervo
>
>
>
Including the Canadians? Oh, no--it was a victory. It's when the
British lose that the Commonwealth is mentioned.
Mack A. Damia
Oh, I'll get right on it.
No two people sound the same, so you can *never* say nobody talks that
way. It's not logical.
Mack A. Damia
A non-sequitur. I'm only stating fact. The subject was Yanks
landing. Nothing to do with Canadians.
mikeos
her mother about moving to Australia, her mother said "as long as you
don't come back with one of those horrendous accents".
mikeos
>
> Not widely known but well over 50% of the troops landing in Normandy
> were British.
Actual figures:
On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The
American forces landed numbered 73,000: In the British and Canadian
sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British)
Fairly even balance I would say.
Mack A. Damia
I'm enjoying the series, "The World at War" narrated by Sir Laurence
Olivier. and that's where I got my information from. I don't know if
he was including Canada in the British forces, but that was what he
said. This from another source: (supports your figures)
"On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The
American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250
on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and
Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British):
24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and
7900 airborne troops."
Adam Cameron
> her mother about moving to Australia, her mother said "as long as you
> don't come back with one of those horrendous accents".
Or, more likely:
"uz lung uz yuh dun't come buck wuth one uv thuz hurrundus ucsunts"
I can't stand the NZ accent. Pity I've got such a strong one :-/
That said: Aussie accents are no better.
--
Adam
tomcervo
Rains. It was clear that Gielgud admired Davis, especially when she
spoke so warmly about working with Rains--who was a Cockney. Be
interesting to know what either of them thought of her accent--between
the two of them, they spoke English better than anyone before or
since.
(Sorry about the drift, Jim, but I love this topic, unless it's taken
too seriously. I love the opinion of Anthony Burgess, who asserted
that the one Hollywood actor who spoke English the way that it was
spoken in Shakespere's London--based on the internal evidence of the
rhymes and rhythms of the plays--was William Bendix.)
Mack A. Damia
Chester A Riley?
mikeos
friend and needed to write a postcard home. She asked the hotelier if
she could borrow a pen. The lady disappeared upstairs for some time and
came back with an assorted tin of safety pins, saying she hoped there
was something suitable.
mikeos
D-Day museum in Portsmouth.
Mack A. Damia
This one?
http://www.ddaymuseum.co.uk/faq.htm
I usually put my reference, but I missed it.
I'm really wondering what I heard now, and I owe an apology to
tomcervo for being somewhat belligerent in a reply.
I was certain Olivier said that over 50% of the initial assault were
British troops, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I've
been reading several other sources, too.
Anyway, it's straightened out now.
mikeos
>
> I'm really wondering what I heard now, and I owe an apology to
> tomcervo for being somewhat belligerent in a reply.
>
> I was certain Olivier said that over 50% of the initial assault were
> British troops, but it certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I've
> been reading several other sources, too.
>
> Anyway, it's straightened out now.
I think I read somewhere fairly recently that there were more Royal Navy
ships and personnel involved than US
Dave in Toronto
>
> (Sorry about the drift, Jim, but I love this topic, unless it's taken
> too seriously. I love the opinion of Anthony Burgess, who asserted
> that the one Hollywood actor who spoke English the way that it was
> spoken in Shakespere's London--based on the internal evidence of the
> rhymes and rhythms of the plays--was William Bendix.)
I like that.
I have heard samples from Shakespeare where the actors have tried to
re-produce Shakesperean speech. It seemed to be a mixture of
Brooklyn, Irish and West Country English.
I do recall Bendix playing an English Knight in _A Connecticut Yankee
in King Arthur's Court _ without changing his accent one iota.
Perhaps he was the closest to getting it right !!.
Dave M
Dave in Toronto
> You can get one-hundred Cockneys, and they'll all sound slightly
> different - just as we all do.
True, For example I know numerous Scots from all over Scotland and
none of them sound like Sean Connery.
Dave M
Stone me
"Dave in Toronto" <dmatt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85c583b5-7ed0-40a6...@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
part of one city and even one class, is stupid.
A decent London-ish accent would have done, but her effort fell short of
passable.
I think she had been trying to copy Noel Coward.
Let's hear of a good copy of a Bronx accent from a British actor.
Stone me.
Howard Brazee
<paradi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>(Sorry about the drift, Jim, but I love this topic, unless it's taken
>too seriously. I love the opinion of Anthony Burgess, who asserted
>that the one Hollywood actor who spoke English the way that it was
>spoken in Shakespere's London--based on the internal evidence of the
>rhymes and rhythms of the plays--was William Bendix.)
I like that. Especially when I read criticism of people having the
*wrong* accent to play Robin Hood - because it is obvious that Robin
Hood spoke modern Queen's English...
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Dave in Toronto
> "Dave in Toronto" <dmatthew...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:85c583b5-7ed0-40a6...@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
I think I heard Bob Hoskins do a fair to middling one once. Can't
remember the movie though.
Dave M
Howard Brazee
<dmatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I think I heard Bob Hoskins do a fair to middling one once. Can't
>remember the movie though.
He's one of the few Brits who can do quite a few USAmerican accents
accurately. I just saw a movie a month ago where he had a
lower-class English accent that I could hardly understand. I assumed
Albert Passingham was a real person, but Googling to find out where he
was from didn't help. So maybe he was created for the movie Made in
Dagenham.
Apteryx
Which raises the question of what an English knight was doing in the
court of King Arthur (assuming it is legitimate to describe an Angle or
Saxon of the time as "English"). An ambassador? A prisoner? A traitor?
Apteryx
Mack A. Damia
wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 12:09:13 -0800 (PST), Dave in Toronto
><dmatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I think I heard Bob Hoskins do a fair to middling one once. Can't
>>remember the movie though.
>
>He's one of the few Brits who can do quite a few USAmerican accents
>accurately. I just saw a movie a month ago where he had a
>lower-class English accent that I could hardly understand. I assumed
>Albert Passingham was a real person, but Googling to find out where he
>was from didn't help. So maybe he was created for the movie Made in
>Dagenham.
Remember Joan Bennett in Fritz Lang's "Manhunt"?
She was an American actress who played a Cockney lass in the film. I
DID think her accent sounded a bit too affected, but it was a minor
flaw considering the magnitude of the film.
tomcervo
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>> I do recall Bendix playing an English Knight in _A Connecticut Yankee
>> in King Arthur's Court _ without changing his accent one iota.
>> Perhaps he was the closest to getting it right !!.
>
>Which raises the question of what an English knight was doing in the
>court of King Arthur (assuming it is legitimate to describe an Angle or
>Saxon of the time as "English"). An ambassador? A prisoner? A traitor?
I the film makers were aware of that issue, they could fall back on a
long tradition of adding a character outside of the story - who
observes things "our" way.
Adam Cameron
> friend and needed to write a postcard home. She asked the hotelier if
> she could borrow a pen. The lady disappeared upstairs for some time and
> came back with an assorted tin of safety pins, saying she hoped there
> was something suitable.
I've been living in this country for five years (with another three prior
to that in the 90s), and I simply *cannot* enunciate the word "pen" in a
way that a Pom can understand. By default they think I'm asking for a
"pin", as per your story above; but sometimes I can get them to think I'm
asking for a "pan". Or it's all about a silly word-play ("pun").
It's crazy, because I can hear the difference, but I cannot make my mouth
pronounce it.
So these days I ask for a "biro", and I'm fine.
--
Adam
tomcervo
Find a recording of Gielgud reading something and listen to it for
half an hour every day.
Dave in Toronto
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:49:47 +1300, Apteryx <apte...@xtra.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >> I do recall Bendix playing an English Knight in _A Connecticut Yankee
> >> in King Arthur's Court _ without changing his accent one iota.
> >> Perhaps he was the closest to getting it right !!.
>
> >Which raises the question of what an English knight was doing in the
> >court of King Arthur (assuming it is legitimate to describe an Angle or
> >Saxon of the time as "English"). An ambassador? A prisoner? A traitor?
My bad. I should of course have said a British Knight - Sir Sagramore
to be exact.
Dave M
>
Adam Cameron
>>that scene that was posted...
>
> Oh, I'll get right on it.
>
> No two people sound the same, so you can *never* say nobody talks that
> way. It's not logical.
That's just specious, and logic plays no part in it (where "it" is "your
position in this argument").
I could play a recording of R2D2, and it would be abundantly clearly that
it sounds like no person who has ever spoken English, be they from the East
End, or East Pakistan, or be one of the Witches of Eastwick. And Davis in
that film sounded as much like a cockney as R2D2 does; ie: not at all.
No two people sound the same - sure: no-one is contesting that - but no-one
sounds like R2D2 either. And no person who is *actually* in the
demographic that Davis was trying to portray in that movie *actually*
sounds like that.
Although I suspect you already got all that, and you're just being obtuse
for the sake of it. Silly - silly - person.
--
Adam
Mack A. Damia
This debate ended days ago.
Adam Cameron
> who uses an NZ accent.
Sam Neill? Without stopping to pick out exceptions, I think he always
speaks with an NZ accent. Even in Jurassic Park, he made no pretence at
being an American, as far as I can recall?
Cliff Curtis uses his NZ accent when he's not playing "some ethnic
minority", such as an Iraqi or a Mexican. Which is infrequently. In the
pretty bad movie "Virus", he played a Kiwi, and talks like one.
Brett & Jermaine played Kiwis with Kiwi accents in Flight of the Concords.
There ain't many NZ actors out there, so it's difficult to get good
penetration in the non-NZ-speaking market. Sheesh... there ain't many NZ
*people* out there... there's only 4M of us...
--
Adam
tomcervo
> > While there are some prominant NZ actors in film, I can't think of one
> > who uses an NZ accent.
>
> Sam Neill? Without stopping to pick out exceptions, I think he always
> speaks with an NZ accent. Even in Jurassic Park, he made no pretence at
> being an American, as far as I can recall?
Given his derivation, which is all over the place, I can see Kiwis
thinking he's a Brit, Brits thinking he's an Ulsterman and Americans
thinking he's Lord Privy Seal.
> Cliff Curtis uses his NZ accent when he's not playing "some ethnic
> minority", such as an Iraqi or a Mexican. Which is infrequently. In the
> pretty bad movie "Virus", he played a Kiwi, and talks like one.
>
> Brett & Jermaine played Kiwis with Kiwi accents in Flight of the Concords.
My niece loves them, but she probably thinks they're making up their
accents.
> There ain't many NZ actors out there, so it's difficult to get good
> penetration in the non-NZ-speaking market. Sheesh... there ain't many NZ
> *people* out there... there's only 4M of us...
Still out numbered by the sheep, eh? My regards to Fred Dagg.
Adam Cameron
>> pronounce it.
>>
>> So these days I ask for a "biro", and I'm fine.
> Find a recording of Gielgud reading something and listen to it for
> half an hour every day.
Like I said: I can *hear* the difference, I just can't make my mouth do it.
I don't need recordings of Gielgud - I *get* *it* - I need Geoffrey Rush
putting marbles in my mouth (or something).
Or simply for me to not aspire to speak in an accent that isn't part of my
culture: I'm not auditioning for the BBC (the one from the 60s) so I don't
have any desire to speak using RP.
--
Adam
tomcervo
> >>However I challenge you to find *one* of them that sounds like Davis did in
> >>that scene that was posted...
>
> > Oh, I'll get right on it.
>
> > No two people sound the same, so you can *never* say nobody talks that
> > way. It's not logical.
>
> That's just specious, and logic plays no part in it (where "it" is "your
> position in this argument").
>
> I could play a recording of R2D2, and it would be abundantly clearly that
> it sounds like no person who has ever spoken English, be they from the East
> End, or East Pakistan, or be one of the Witches of Eastwick. And Davis in
> that film sounded as much like a cockney as R2D2 does; ie: not at all.
>
> No two people sound the same - sure: no-one is contesting that - but no-one
> sounds like R2D2 either. And no person who is *actually* in the
> demographic that Davis was trying to portray in that movie *actually*
> sounds like that.
I could play a record of Edith Evans, and it too would sound like the
English of no living person. Walter Ralegh spoke broad Devon his whole
life--did anyone slag Vincent Price, Richard Todd or Clive Owen for
not doing so?
Like I said, Davis copied the failing aspiration in the voice of her
English housekeeper, the mixture of ambition, dishonesty and self-
loathing. THAT was the demographic Davis was aiming at.
Actors do funny things to get into a part. Laughton found out that
William Bligh's uniform specs were still on file at Gieves. He ordered
a full dress uniform and put it on, and found his character, or so he
said.
Mack A. Damia
<mybaco...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>This debate ended days ago.
P.S. <*plonk*>
Mack A. Damia
Excellent!
Adam Cameron
>
>
> P.S. <*plonk*>
Did it all get a bit difficult for you, dear?
--
Adam
Adam Cameron
> Given his derivation, which is all over the place, I can see Kiwis
> thinking he's a Brit, Brits thinking he's an Ulsterman and Americans
> thinking he's Lord Privy Seal.
As far as the media dictates to me, he considers himself a Kiwi (and this
is born out by his behaviour). And I'm pretty sure that's the only opinion
that counts.
>> Brett & Jermaine played Kiwis with Kiwi accents in Flight of the Concords.
>
> My niece loves them, but she probably thinks they're making up their
> accents.
Sadly: no. That's what we sound like. And that's also how a lot of us act
like, when first living "overseas".
>> There ain't many NZ actors out there, so it's difficult to get good
>> penetration in the non-NZ-speaking market. Sheesh... there ain't many NZ
>> *people* out there... there's only 4M of us...
>
> Still out numbered by the sheep, eh?
It's a long way down from when it was - purportedly - 60M sheep to 3M
people, but there's still far more sheep than people. Fortunately fewer
people who act like sheep than in a lot of countries, though ;-)
> My regards to Fred Dagg.
Have you seen Death in Brunswick? Both Sam Neill *and* John Clarke in that
one. And a good film, in a silly way.
The archetypal NZ actor with a Kiwi accent was Bruno Lawrence. But he -
sadly - never got much or any exposure outside NZ. He was the bloke in The
Quiet Earth (which is his greatest foray outside NZ's shores, I think).
--
Adam
tomcervo
Not to mention "Smash Palace" and "Utu", which created quite a
critical stir. So much so that Pauline Kael complained in her review
that "Smash Palace" was not as good as her fellow critics said. But I
think most of the talent responsible ended up in Hollywood, doing
inferior projects.
Actually, I think Neill is the NZ male's idealized self image;
Lawrence is the real thing. Kind of like Robert Redford and Warren
Oates.
moviePig
You probably missed Neill's career flirting with the realms of the
undead, in DAYBREAKERS. Not a lot to idealize there...
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
Adam Cameron
> undead, in DAYBREAKERS. Not a lot to idealize there...
Or, more occult still, as Damien in Omen 3.
--
Adam
Adam Cameron
> critical stir. So much so that Pauline Kael complained in her review
> that "Smash Palace" was not as good as her fellow critics said. But I
> think most of the talent responsible ended up in Hollywood, doing
> inferior projects.
I'm surprised Smash Palace got international relaease. It seems rather
NZ-ish to be of interest to many people outside those shores. Utu was a
bit of fun, but a bit silly, I think.
> Actually, I think Neill is the NZ male's idealized self image;
> Lawrence is the real thing. Kind of like Robert Redford and Warren
> Oates.
And here we can tie Warren Oates to Sam Neill... Sleeping Dogs. One of the
best films to come out of NZ, I think.
--
Adam
globular
>>>> I'd just like to add for the benefit of those in the U.S., the
>>>> Australian accent isn't the New Zealand one. The New Zealand one is the
>>>> one that seems used in imitations.
>>> While there are some prominant NZ actors in film, I can't think of one
>>> who uses an NZ accent.
>
> Really? What's an example of that happening?
I can't recall out of so many. If you know the NZ accent, it's a way of
clipping vowels that those in the US think is a way to make an
Australian accent. No one is attempting a NZ accent in these.
>
> My normal reaction to those rare occasions a USAn actor needs to play a
> Kiwi is that they always come off sounding like an Australian.
>
> The only attempt by *anyone* at a NZ accent I can recall recently was
> Anthony Hopkins in the World's Fastest Indian, and he did a reasonable job.
>
tomcervo
> > Not to mention "Smash Palace" and "Utu", which created quite a
> > critical stir. So much so that Pauline Kael complained in her review
> > that "Smash Palace" was not as good as her fellow critics said. But I
> > think most of the talent responsible ended up in Hollywood, doing
> > inferior projects.
>
> I'm surprised Smash Palace got international relaease. It seems rather
> NZ-ish to be of interest to many people outside those shores. Utu was a
> bit of fun, but a bit silly, I think.
I remember the US reaction--the one that Kael responded to--high marks
for the intensity and for Lawrence. And "Utu" was likened favorably to
a John Ford film. (Yeah, I know, that shotgun. But it was more an
emblem of the Rev.'s obsession than any effective superweapon.) The
whole revenge thread was neatly derailed by the final revelation about
the brothers.
tomcervo
Breit and J'mine in "Conchords are the reality. I'm sure a linguist
has traced the emigrant strains that make up the main NZ accent. Until
then, you'll have to settle for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr1TUE1doJ8
(She also exhibits another NZ trait called "taking the piss".)
David O.
<paradi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jan 9, 3:48�am, Adam Cameron <adam_j...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Not to mention "Smash Palace" and "Utu", which created quite a
>> > critical stir. So much so that Pauline Kael complained in her review
>> > that "Smash Palace" was not as good as her fellow critics said. But I
>> > think most of the talent responsible ended up in Hollywood, doing
>> > inferior projects.
>>
>> I'm surprised Smash Palace got international relaease. �It seems rather
>> NZ-ish to be of interest to many people outside those shores. �Utu was a
>> bit of fun, but a bit silly, I think.
>
>I remember the US reaction--the one that Kael responded to--high marks
>for the intensity and for Lawrence.
My curiosity about Kael's comments sent me back to her review, which I
read through twice just now. Try as I might, I can't see any mention
at all of the critical reception to "Smash Palace."
Are you sure you have the right movie--or even the right critic?
tomcervo
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 07:20:44 -0800 (PST), tomcervo
>
It's a thirty year old memory of something I read in a magazine, so
the accuracy is hardly precise. She may have referred to it in
general, in passing. Or it may not have made the collected edition.
Baldoni
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 01:35:28 -0800 (PST), Jim Beaver
> <jumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 1934 version. Is Bette Davis's accent (Cockney or whatever her
>> character speaks) as scorned in the UK as it is in the U.S.? There's
>> a tendency in the U.S., it seems, to make fun of almost any American
>> attempting any British accent, yet I'm reminded of the story of
>> American critics condemning Robert Mitchum's accent in THE SECRET
>> CEREMONY while British critics praised it as a masterful success at a
>> North Country accent. Is Davis really that bad, or is that something
>> that's simply become true because a lot of people who don't know
>> better say it's true?
>
> Where are you reading these criticisms? I can't find one.
>
> Not that I lived in London, but her accent is "polished-Cockney" if
> there's such a thing.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-w5cuWI5o&NR=1
>
> It doesn't sound all that bad; it sounds as though she was a Cockney
> who was trying to lose her accent.
>
> There are different Cockney accents, too - some broader than others.
>
> Probably just something her critics could jump on.
Not all Londoners are "Cockneys", one has to be born within the sound
of "Bow Bells" which are located at the church of St Mary Le-Bow.
--
"Ce n'est qu'un début, continuons le combat !"
Count Baldoni
Baldoni
>> It doesn't sound all that bad; it sounds as though she was a Cockney
>> who was trying to lose her accent.
>
>
>
> perhaps that expression isn't used any more). Basically it was
> Cockneys trying to talk 'posh' - It was used a lot by people serving
> the public, shop assistants etc. John Cleese mimics it perfectly in
> some of his sketches.
>
[polite snip]
Yes agreed and Sir Alf Ramsey was one such person from East London who
tried to speak poshhe public eye while being in t.
Baldoni
> On Jan 3, 3:24 am, Mack A. Damia <mybaconbu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 01:35:28 -0800 (PST), Jim Beaver
>>
>>> 1934 version. Is Bette Davis's accent (Cockney or whatever her
>>> character speaks) as scorned in the UK as it is in the U.S.? There's
>>> a tendency in the U.S., it seems, to make fun of almost any American
>>> attempting any British accent, yet I'm reminded of the story of
>>> American critics condemning Robert Mitchum's accent in THE SECRET
>>> CEREMONY while British critics praised it as a masterful success at a
>>> North Country accent. Is Davis really that bad, or is that something
>>> that's simply become true because a lot of people who don't know
>>> better say it's true?
>>
>> Where are you reading these criticisms? I can't find one.
>
> professional criticism, but the thread contains the gist of what I'm
> talking about. I've seen the same sort of remarks in professional
> American criticism and historical overviews--here are some quotes:
>
> "Bette Davis’ Cockney accent may sound painfully affected a la Dick
> Van Dyke, especially to English ears...." --Richard Raymond,
> Suite101.com
>
> "And the accent! In all of history, there has surely never been a
> worse attempt at a cockney accent. Ever. We can hear that she's
> struggling with it - she mispronounces Champagne as something like
> 'Sham-paaaaaan' and her own clipped British voice is clearly audible
> beneath it all. It's a horrible thing to see such a great actress in a
> terrifically demeaning role....it's quite likely that you'll switch
> off well before Bette's one fiery speech, which is itself marred by
> her horrible forced accent." --(apparently) Tom Keogh, Openflix.com
> (His reference to Davis's "own clipped British voice" makes his
> perspicacity suspect.)
>
> "Her Cockney accent is almost laughable by today's thespic standards."
> --Gary @. Tooze, DVDBeaver.com
>
> I don't find much from 1934-era reviews regarding her accent.
>
>
> Jim Beaver
Something I have noticed in older American movies is that the actors
and actresses speak English which is very close to standard English.
In the modern era more emphasis is placed on local accents.
Mack A. Damia
wrote:
I wouldn't know that having been born there and having lived thirty
miles from London.
Thanks! :)
tomcervo
No, she didn't say what I thought she said --she praised it strongly,
which only reinforces my point that the movie had a very good critical
reception in the US, and opened a door that no one walked through,
except to work in Hollywood.
Stone me
"Baldoni" <Baldo...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:8p1gj8...@mid.individual.net...
> Something I have noticed in older American movies is that the actors and
> actresses speak English which is very close to standard English. In the
> modern era more emphasis is placed on local accents.
>
> --
> "Ce n'est qu'un début, continuons le combat !"
>
> Count Baldoni
>
"Standard English." In relation to accent, no such thing.
Are you referring to "Esturese", or a "Home Counties"
accent?
Stone me.