Top 50 Most Racist Movies You Didn't Think Were Racist . . .
Antonio E. Gonzalez
though that may have been the tongue-in-cheek intent!:
<http://best.complex.com/lists/The-50-Most-Racist-Movies>
--
- ReFlex76
william
William
RichA
Avatar. Racist against white humans.
Antonio E. Gonzalez
wrote:
Quite the opposite! (see The Last Samurai entry)
--
- ReFlex76
MichaelW
african americans would either,
--
http://www.booksie.com/michael_wynn (my humble self)
www.TheEnglishCollection.com
"Antonio E. Gonzalez" <AntE...@aol.com> skrev i melding
news:1bgsr5ddq6lc2cdam...@4ax.com...
calvin
And 'Song of the South' is an exceptionally
fine movie, no matter what the race-obsessed
liberals say.
moviePig
I'm saving my hour of browsing-trudgery for 'The Top 50 Most Sexist
Movies', or 'The Top 50 Most Braindead Movies'... or other
celebrations of how unevolved "everyone else" was/is...
--
- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com
nick
Available on YouTube in ten minute sections. "A study of good race
relations in pre-Civil War South."
Alls Quiet
>
> I'm saving my hour of browsing-trudgery for 'The Top 50 Most Sexist
> Movies', or 'The Top 50 Most Braindead Movies'... or other
> celebrations of how unevolved "everyone else" was/is...
I thought the link the OP gave was a list, not a bunch of graphics you
had to page through. Anyway, a number of 80's films jumped to mind,
ironic because almost all were meant to be "socially conscious." A
Passage to India is embarrassing (for me) to watch. Over twenty years
passed between the time I saw it in a theater and last year, when I
caught it on television. I'm not sure what Richard Attenborough (was
it Attenborough?) could have done differently given the novel he was
working with, but it's an embarrassing film. So is Out of Africa. For
that matter, any hat film whose subject is the sun never setting on
the British empire is kind of icky.
william
I'm not sure what Richard Attenborough (was
> it Attenborough?) could have done differently given the novel he was
> working with, but it's an embarrassing film. So is Out of Africa. For
> that matter, any hat film whose subject is the sun never setting on
> the British empire is kind of icky.
It was David Lean and I agree. Especially flicks like "Gunga Din" and
any of those Bengal Lancer films. There are plenty of them out there
although they don't get shown like they used to.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Alls Quiet
>
> It was David Lean and I agree. Especially flicks like "Gunga Din" and
> any of those Bengal Lancer films. There are plenty of them out there
> although they don't get shown like they used to.
Well, even though Lawrence of Arabia isn't a hat picture, I guess you
could add that, too.
moviePig
Was LAWRENCE about Her Majesty's empire ...or Lawrence? Meanwhile,
fwiw, that's a movie that, until now, I don't recall hearing anyone
call 'overrated'...
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Are you sure? I am pretty sure that it was *post* Cival war, and that
Uncle Remus was *not* a slave (though he probably had been).
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
calvin
Though I suppose your quote is meant to be sarcastic, it's
true about the movie if you substitute 'post-' for 'pre-'. The
movie is about color-blind love between a boy and an old man.
I don't need to watch your clip, because I have the Japanese
laserdisc of the movie and have watched it many times, and
made many copies, first on VHS tapes and later on DVDs,
for people who are able to think for themselves and see for
themselves.
Alls Quiet
>
> Was LAWRENCE about Her Majesty's empire ...or Lawrence? Meanwhile,
> fwiw, that's a movie that, until now, I don't recall hearing anyone
> call 'overrated'...
You actually like that film?
nick
> On Apr 10, 8:45 am, nick <nickmacpherso...@AOL.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 10, 1:17 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > It would take all night to plod through the list.
> > > And 'Song of the South' is an exceptionally
> > > fine movie, no matter what the race-obsessed
> > > liberals say.
>
> > Available on YouTube in ten minute sections. "A study of good race
> > relations in pre-Civil War South."
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrAKhHcZM-Y
>
> Though I suppose your quote is meant to be sarcastic, it's
> true about the movie if you substitute 'post-' for 'pre-'.
It's the quote from the person posting the movie. I had no idea the
post Civil War South was so idyllic.
calvin
It wasn't. The movie was entirely unrealistic in that
respect. Historically, it was a fantasy. But it was not
racist. It was specifically intended not to be racist,
and any racial stereotypes that were in the movie were
there because they were so much a part of the culture
in 1946 that the filmmakers were blinded to them.
Nobody's perfect. A much better case can be made
that Gone With the Wind was racist, but the accusation
against Song of the South has long since become so
embedded in our culture that it is regarded as fact.
The sadly missed truth is that Song of the South is a
powerful statement against racism and for color-blindness;
as well as being an original and moving story of love.
moviePig
As long as they don't give SONG OF THE SOUTH an E.T.-style revision...
say, turning the tar-baby into tapioca...
nick
the 70s--thanks, you censorious liberal bastards!) to get the
impression that if you showed Song of the South to children in this
era, they'd be begging the parents to let them watch Fantasia
instead.
calvin
The tar baby is a perfect example of the racial hysteria of
the racism-sniffing left. The tar baby was black because
tar is black. If that's the best you can do then your
insinuation that the movie was racist is not only empty
but laughable.
moviePig
Well, that's sort of my own recall. The Joel Chandler Harris stories
had somehow become an inherited meme, but the movie wasn't nearly as
indelible... (as even FANTASIA...)
calvin
That's a different issue, but I doubt that children of an
appropriate age would find racism in Song of the South.
They would have to be taught.
nick
> On Apr 11, 8:09 am, nick <nickmacpherso...@AOL.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 11, 1:21 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> > > On Apr 10, 8:45 am, nick <nickmacpherso...@AOL.com> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 10, 1:17 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > It would take all night to plod through the list.
> > > > > And 'Song of the South' is an exceptionally
> > > > > fine movie, no matter what the race-obsessed
> > > > > liberals say.
>
> > > > Available on YouTube in ten minute sections. "A study of good race
> > > > relations in pre-Civil War South."
>
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrAKhHcZM-Y
>
> > > Though I suppose your quote is meant to be sarcastic, it's
> > > true about the movie if you substitute 'post-' for 'pre-'.
>
> > It's the quote from the person posting the movie. I had no idea the
> > post Civil War South was so idyllic.
>
> It wasn't. The movie was entirely unrealistic in that
> respect. Historically, it was a fantasy. But it was not
> racist. It was specifically intended not to be racist,
> and any racial stereotypes that were in the movie were
> there because they were so much a part of the culture
> in 1946 that the filmmakers were blinded to them.
> Nobody's perfect. A much better case can be made
> that Gone With the Wind was racist,
That might be true, but Gone With the Wind is at least an honest
expression of racism (and I'm speaking as someone who's read the
novel, rewatched the movie and read Molly Haskell's Frankly, My Dear
all in the last month or so) in the same way that, oh, the Rolling
Stones best songs are an honest expression of sexism. It might not be
virtuous but art doesn't have the obligation to be virtuous. The
argument might be made against Song of the South that it's not so much
racist, but that it's dishonest in its attitudes toward race. I'm
speaking theoretically because like I said, I haven't seen the movie
since it's last official re-release and I got far enough in on the
YouTube version to decide that I'm not much of a fan of Disney to
begin with, and SotS seems particularly unwatchable. It is just not
my type of movie.
moviePig
(Damn... I've scored poorly on an event I didn't know I'd entered...)
calvin
[from my web page, before Geocities removed
all of its freebies]
This section is about the books of my Southern Heritage,
but there is one exception, the Disney movie, 'Song of
the South'. It was received cooly by my family, because
it was only a second best thing, though we enjoyed it.
Our father had a great talent for reading the Uncle Remus
stories, and we were brought up on them. But the images
and settings in our heads were not the Disney images and
settings, and Disney didn't really get it right, in my
opinion.
But the Disney movie, in and of itself, is not bad. It
has very entertaining animation, and some good voices,
especially those of Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit. It
is a love story between a young white boy and an old
black man. It is an eloquent expression of color
blindness and racial harmony. This is ironic because
the Disney organization has been suppressing the movie
in the U.S. for more than a decade, for fear of bad
press from today's repression-minded left, people who
are too stupid, in my opinion, to see that the movie
really is what they want it to be, and is not what their
propaganda says it is.
Janice
.
> . . .
> Our father had a great talent for reading the Uncle Remus
> stories, and we were brought up on them. But the images
> and settings in our heads were not the Disney images and
> settings, and Disney didn't really get it right, in my
> opinion.
My father also read the Uncle Remus stories to me when I was very
young...one of my favorite memories is being rapt in the world he
created with different voices & and personalities. I think he
particularly liked the trickster character of Brer Rabbit. I always
felt sorry for Brer Bear.
Not surprisingly, I did not grow up to become a racist (tho' I did
become one of those lefties you talk about :).
> But the Disney movie, in and of itself, is not bad. It
> has very entertaining animation, and some good voices,
> especially those of Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit. It
> is a love story between a young white boy and an old
> black man. It is an eloquent expression of color
> blindness and racial harmony. This is ironic because
> the Disney organization has been suppressing the movie
> in the U.S. for more than a decade, for fear of bad
> press from today's repression-minded left, people who
> are too stupid, in my opinion, to see that the movie
> really is what they want it to be, and is not what their
> propaganda says it is.
It will take another generation or two before all the Disney flap
settles down.
I hope that what finally survives is an understanding of Walt's
intuitive brilliance for recognizing the symbolic magic of fairy tales
& their invaluable role as subconscious lessons on the human condition
& its choices.
Yes, there were gender issues and role issues that reflected the times
(damn 50's, will they never end?), but there were also breakthrough
moments in Disney film that confronted gender & race issues, as well
as age discrimination.
Walt Disney celebrated childhood as a challenge to its subculture
standing in an adult world. Disney's children were (and still are)
characterized as intelligent, adventurous, independent, curious,
sensible, and capable human PEOPLE in a world & culture that treated
them like household pets being trained to become laborers.
Tribes have been valuing male children for their ability to work as
manual laborers for the family since the beginning of human
existence. In the last few centuries children & adolescents have been
treated as lower level hostile subhumans that need to be controlled &
disciplined... the abandoned street children of the depression are
just one example. Rampant child abuse is another, along with the
current trend of drugging children whose behavior indicates an
inability to adapt.
I can empathize with the feminist complaint of Disney's consistent
female role modeling as dependent creatures who clean house & live for
romance... but I think a bigger, deeper picture is being ignored
here. Many of these stories are symbolic tales whose metaphors are
much richer and more holistic than worrying about who is cleaning the
house.
As an example, I fell in love with the Disney adaptation of Cinderella
when I was 4-5 years old. I sat in the theater, sobbing loudly at
Cinderella's plight, embarrassing my poor mother who kept trying to
tell me everything would work out. It wasn't until decades later
that I realized my life was patterned much like the story of
Cinderella, as if it had subconsciously embedded itself as a world
view -- a search for love that expanded into spirituality, a belief
in miracles, a patient work ethic, a knowledge of the dangers of
materialism, a belief in transformation, self-reliance, trust, beauty
of character... these are not bad things.
There is a wonderful book published by Samuel Fohr called
"Cinderella's Gold Slipper: Spiritual Symbolism in Grimms' Tales" that
explains the importance of fairy tales as learning tools for becoming
human. Disney may be the pop culture equivalent of Grimm, but in a
culture that really has few symbolic tales of its own, it is of
significant importance.
I was also obsessed with the Oz series by Baum as a child, and not
surprisingly, I consider the film The Wizard of Oz one of the greatest
movies ever made. Here's some commentary on the symbolism (political
& spiritual) of the Wizard of Oz:
http://www.turnmeondeadman.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=69
~`~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
uh, what's a laughin place?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjFd3ekLXVI
calvin
> ...
> Yes, there were gender issues and role issues that reflected the times
I'm not sure what you mean here, but the 50s were great
times in many respects. WWII had been over for five years
when they began; the U.S. was in a great economic period,
when the middle class finally came to embody the American
dream; crime was still relatively limited, in both scope and
areas affected; live theater was in its golden age, and even
overflowed into TV; the movies were exploring in all directions.
Personally, all of my high school, and half of my college years
were in the fifties, so it was a time of high energy and excitement.
You will say that we still had segregation, but it was in the fifties
that the great first steps to end it were taken, and again
personally the fifties were when I first realized that segregation
was wrong. Of all previous decades, the 50s hold the best
memories.
Captain Infinity
calvin wrote:
Let's not forget to mention that that's when women knew their places
(kitchen and bedroom), homosexuality hadn't been invented yet, street gangs
*really* knew how to dance, and horror comics were THE BEST! Good times, I
love to visit the 50's every now and then when my time machine isn't in the
shop.
**
Captain Infinity
calvin
wrote:
Who sez women 'knew their places' in the 50s?
'Father Knows Best' was an ironic title, for God's
sake. The left never seems to have gotten that.
EC horror comics were very good, but actually the EC
war and science-fiction comics were even better.
Homosexuality had been invented, but its power to
rule the world had not yet been discovered.
Captain Infinity
calvin wrote:
>Who sez women 'knew their places' in the 50s?
>'Father Knows Best' was an ironic title, for God's
>sake. The left never seems to have gotten that.
The left what?
**
Captain Infinity
nick
> .
>
> > . . .
> > Our father had a great talent for reading the Uncle Remus
> > stories, and we were brought up on them. But the images
> > and settings in our heads were not the Disney images and
> > settings, and Disney didn't really get it right, in my
> > opinion.
>
> My father also read the Uncle Remus stories to me when I was very
> young...one of my favorite memories is being rapt in the world he
> created with different voices & and personalities. I think he
> particularly liked the trickster character of Brer Rabbit. I always
> felt sorry for Brer Bear.
>
adapted for the movies? Does anyone read him anymore?
> Not surprisingly, I did not grow up to become a racist (tho' I did
> become one of those lefties you talk about :).
>
> > But the Disney movie, in and of itself, is not bad. It
> > has very entertaining animation, and some good voices,
> > especially those of Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit. It
> > is a love story between a young white boy and an old
> > black man. It is an eloquent expression of color
> > blindness and racial harmony. This is ironic because
> > the Disney organization has been suppressing the movie
> > in the U.S. for more than a decade, for fear of bad
> > press from today's repression-minded left, people who
> > are too stupid, in my opinion, to see that the movie
> > really is what they want it to be, and is not what their
> > propaganda says it is.
>
> It will take another generation or two before all the Disney flap
> settles down.
>
I don't think so. I think it's a non-issue right now. It might be a
controversy that feeds off its own energy as a controversy--there's
plenty of those--but I don't know why Disney feels the need to not
give Song of the South a domestic DVD release at this point. Just
give it to Criterion or let Leonard Maltin do something with it.
Devote a whole disc to the controversy, get Henry Louis Gates or
Cornel West to talk about it or even Michael Medved (he says,
straining his brain trying to think of a credible conservative film
critic.) Diffuse the controversy by dealing with it, not running from
it. This late in the day, I don't see people getting upset.
calvin
> On Apr 11, 3:12 pm, Janice <jan...@dixoncreekstudio.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 10:58 am, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> > > . . .
Just don't remake it. A movie of authentic Joel Chandler Harris
stories could be quite good, but there's no need to revisit the
specific 'Song of the South' story, which was mostly Hollywood.
nick
>
> - Show quoted text -
Homosexuality was invented in the early seventies by David Bowie, who
was, ironically, not gay. But most everyone jumped on the bandwagon
and things just kinda went from there.
william
> Homosexuality was invented in the early seventies by David Bowie, who
> was, ironically, not gay. But most everyone jumped on the bandwagon
> and things just kinda went from there.
Yeah, maybe, but most cultural relativists think he ripped off
Liberace.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Janice
.
> > Yes, there were gender issues and role issues that reflected the times
> > (damn 50's, will they never end?), ...
.
> I'm not sure what you mean here, but the 50s were great
calvincalvincalvin...
(I hope you can YouTube)
Then:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTiqcFhPFWI
Now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-yQLZbatc
Do real men do laundry?
Guys I would like to see make a laundry commercial: Clint Eastwood,
Kiefer Sutherland, Bob Dylan, Michael Madsen, Gene Simmons, Denzel
Washington, Clive Owen, Joaquin Phoenix, Benjamin Bratt, Iggy Pop...
~`~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cRrbcv_qKA
Cindy Hamilton
> Yes, there were gender issues and role issues that reflected the times
> (damn 50's, will they never end?),
Not while people look back on them as some kind of Golden Age.
It particularly galls me that "women didn't work in the 50's", and
that this represents the natural order of things.
Women have always worked; they have worked at home and
away from home for millenia. Anyone who thinks differently
hasn't studied the history of our culture in any meaningful way.
Cindy Hamilton
Bill Steele
<0a09dead-d1a9-4b78...@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
nick <nickmacp...@AOL.com> wrote:
I'm not seeing any specifics about WHY the movie is viewed as racist.
I'm guessing it's because Uncle Remus and the characters in his stories
talk in a pseudo-Black/Southern dialect. The same charge has been
leveled against Huckleberry Finn, another powerful statement against
racism, because Jim the runaway slave doesn't talk like James Earl
Jones.
The dialect, of course, isn't Disney's; it came with the stories. If
there is any justice in the complaint, it may lie in the fact that Joel
Chandler Harris probably thought the use of the dialect would make his
stories humorous. But again, that's an artifact of the times. Might as
well claim that all movies from the 40s are sexist because all the women
wear dresses and lipstick.
calvin
> On Apr 11, 4:08 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> .> On Apr 11, 3:12 pm, Janice <jan...@dixoncreekstudio.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, there were gender issues and role issues that reflected the times
> > > (damn 50's, will they never end?), ...
> .
> > I'm not sure what you mean here, but the 50s were great
>
> calvincalvincalvin...
>
> (I hope you can YouTube)
> Then:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTiqcFhPFWI
> Now:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-yQLZbatc
>
> Do real men do laundry?
>
> Guys I would like to see make a laundry commercial: Clint Eastwood,
> Kiefer Sutherland, Bob Dylan, Michael Madsen, Gene Simmons, Denzel
> Washington, Clive Owen, Joaquin Phoenix, Benjamin Bratt, Iggy Pop...
Yes, I see now what you were talking about.
Ironically, I'm just getting ready to do my laundry
right now, but that's probably because there's no
woman in the house, just me and my cats.
Janice
> > Do real men do laundry?
> > Guys I would like to see make a laundry commercial: Clint Eastwood,
> > Kiefer Sutherland, Bob Dylan, Michael Madsen, Gene Simmons, Denzel
> > Washington, Clive Owen, Joaquin Phoenix, Benjamin Bratt, Iggy Pop...
.
> Yes, I see now what you were talking about.
> Ironically, I'm just getting ready to do my laundry
> right now, but that's probably because there's no
> woman in the house, just me and my cats.
My husband has always done his own laundry and often offers to do
mine... it's one of the reasons I married him. Unfortunately, he is
allergic to cats... damn, he came *that* close to being perfect :)
~`~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
moviePig
> In article
> <0a09dead-d1a9-4b78-b202-5eb7757f0...@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
I think SONG OF THE SOUTH is perceived as racist because it doesn't
address racism. I.e., because it wasn't part of the solution, it has
been deemed part of the problem. [Insert cleverly-worded yet profound
and insightful moral here.]
calvin
> I think SONG OF THE SOUTH is perceived as racist because it doesn't
> address racism. I.e., because it wasn't part of the solution, it has
> been deemed part of the problem. [Insert cleverly-worded yet profound
> and insightful moral here.]
But it was part of the solution, for reasons that I've
already given.
calvin
> address racism. I.e., because it wasn't part of the solution, it has
> been deemed part of the problem. [Insert cleverly-worded yet profound
> and insightful moral here.]
It should be mentioned that Song of the South was
not suppressed for a long time. A 1946 movie, I
last saw it in a theater in 1971 or 1972. So it had
at least a quarter century run. That was when things
were normal, and people could make up their own minds.
Suppression has done nothing constructive, though it
gave me considerable (liberal) satisfaction in violating it.
william
> My husband has always done his own laundry and often offers to do
> mine... it's one of the reasons I married him. Unfortunately, he is
> allergic to cats... damn, he came *that* close to being perfect :)
>
I hear Calvin's available. He does laundry and loves cats.
William
www.williamahearn.com
william
wrote:
>
> Women have always worked; they have worked at home and
> away from home for millenia. Anyone who thinks differently
> hasn't studied the history of our culture in any meaningful way.
>
that tease women out of the workforce and back into the home. It's
part of the "traditional" values that this country never had.
William
www.williamahearn.com
william
First off, Disney knew he would have problems with the film as he was
making it. One hint of how the film could go wrong is that at the
premiere in Atlanta, James Baskett couldn't attend because what Disney
had planned wouldn't be allowed under segregation. And the problem
wasn't limited to how the "left" would view it. According to the wiki,
Disney publicist Perce Pearce wrote that "The negro situation is a
dangerous one. Between the negro haters and the negro lovers there are
many chances to run afoul of situations that could run the gamut all
the way from the nasty to the controversial."
I haven't seen the film in years and don't have much else to add
except it has always been Disney's decision not to release the film to
video or DVD.
William
www.williamahearn.com
calvin
> On Apr 12, 4:50 pm, calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> > On Apr 12, 4:33 pm, moviePig <pwall...@moviepig.com> wrote:
>
> > > I think SONG OF THE SOUTH is perceived as racist because it doesn't
> > > address racism. I.e., because it wasn't part of the solution, it has
> > > been deemed part of the problem. [Insert cleverly-worded yet profound
> > > and insightful moral here.]
>
> > But it was part of the solution, for reasons that I've
> > already given.
>
> First off, Disney knew he would have problems with the film as he was
> making it. One hint of how the film could go wrong is that at the
> premiere in Atlanta, James Baskett couldn't attend because what Disney
> had planned wouldn't be allowed under segregation. And the problem
> wasn't limited to how the "left" would view it. According to the wiki,
> Disney publicist Perce Pearce wrote that "The negro situation is a
> dangerous one. Between the negro haters and the negro lovers there are
> many chances to run afoul of situations that could run the gamut all
> the way from the nasty to the controversial."
Likewise Hattie McDaniel could not attend the GWTW premiere.
> I haven't seen the film in years and don't have much else to add
> except it has always been Disney's decision not to release the film to
> video or DVD.
In the United States, that is, and theater showings were
stopped. But Disney released a laserdisc in Japan,
which is what I have. It clearly is an official release,
as is plain from the packaging, from the pre-feature
Disney 'presentation', and also from the inclusion
of trailers, for 'Dumbo' and 'Mary Poppins' and maybe one other.
It was done in cooperation with the Japanee, containing
a Japanese-dubbed soundtrack, as well as the original
soundtrack. They did not attempt to dub the songs, however,
so Japanese subtitles were included for them. Obviously
Disney didn't feel that the Japanese needed to be shielded
from this movie.
There also was a PAL tape in Europe, but I don't know if
it was an official release or a bootleg, never having seen it.
One would think, from all the fuss, that the movie is some
sort of heavy-handed Jim Crow kind of thing, but it isn't.
It's as mild as can be. The only heavies in the movie
are two white cracker boys, but not even they are racist.
Their mischief is directed elsewhere.
Cindy Hamilton
That last was beautifully phrased. Thanks.
Cindy Hamilton
nick
In current times, people who embrace these traditional values also
despise Hollywood as a hotbed of elitism and liberalism. Go figure.
Didn't Neil Gabler write a book about this?
Invid Fan
<635c4737-7288-4cdc...@g11g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
calvin <cri...@windstream.net> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 5:52�pm, nick <nickmacpherso...@AOL.com> wrote:
> > Hollywood invented traditional values as a cinematic myth of America.
>
> I don't think that is true. We have many sayings of the founders,
> for example, that came long before Hollywood, eg. "early to bed,
> early to rise, etc". I have a book of quotations of the founders,
> that
> well represent traditional values in the sense that I understand them.
And I have a collection of quotes from Ben Franklin about the joys of
farthing in public and how great sex with older women is if you cover
their faces, as they're so grateful. You can cherry pick your quotes to
fill whatever values you want in other words :)
--
Chris Mack "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan' - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
calvin
I don't think that is true. We have many sayings of the founders,
for example, that came long before Hollywood, eg. "early to bed,
early to rise, etc". I have a book of quotations of the founders,
that
well represent traditional values in the sense that I understand them.
At the moment I can't think of any so-called traditional value that
Hollywood invented.
> In current times, people who embrace these traditional values also
> despise Hollywood as a hotbed of elitism and liberalism. Go figure.
> Didn't Neil Gabler write a book about this?
I don't despise everything that comes out of Hollywood by
any means, but for any sensitive political issue you can be
pretty sure Hollywood is going to give us the view from
the left.
william
> > But they sure have gone to the movies. Check out many post-war films
> > that tease women out of the workforce and back into the home. It's
> > part of the "traditional" values that this country never had.
>
> Hollywood invented traditional values as a cinematic myth of America.
> In current times, people who embrace these traditional values also
> despise Hollywood as a hotbed of elitism and liberalism. Go figure.
>
> Didn't Neil Gabler write a book about this?
Molly Haskell also deals with it in "From Reverence To Rape."
William
www.williamahearn.com
calvin
Okay, how about a few examples of Hollywood movies that
invented traditional values? I expect that the best anyone
will be able to do is name some movies that appealed to
traditional values, not invented them.
william
> I don't despise everything that comes out of Hollywood by
> any means, but for any sensitive political issue you can be
> pretty sure Hollywood is going to give us the view from
> the left.
That depends on what timeframe you use. Most of the so-called "film
noirs" made in the post-WWII era in Hollywood are thinly veiled pro-
goverment, anti-left and pro-family and placing women in the center of
that family as redeemer and nurturer. It wasn't until the mid-1960s
that the Hays Office lost its grip because the studios were losing too
much money making dumb and stupid films that treated the audience as
adolescents. That it may have swung too far the other way is a valid
interpretation. To think that Hollywood (or what's left of it) has a
political agenda is absurd. Their agenda is selling tickets (or DVD or
cable rights, etc). As it's been said many times before, "the only ism
Hollywood believes in is plagiarism." So maybe if other "right-
thinking" people supported their kind of films, more would get made.
William
www.williamahearn.com
william
> Okay, how about a few examples of Hollywood movies that
> invented traditional values? I expect that the best anyone
> will be able to do is name some movies that appealed to
> traditional values, not invented them.
How about every aggressively white cowboy movie? The point that you're
missing, Calvin, is that whether the idea existed previously or not,
the exploitation of family values -- especially in the baby boom age
-- as a sales tool and as a political button is what makes many people
see those values as false. The post-war years were about the family
because --as Willie Sutton would say -- that's where the money was.
Now that the time has passed, the rightwing is kind of stuck with the
white elephant that they got a deal on in Levittown. Families are
blended, multi-racial, homosexual and varied in ways that the great
white fathers never nightmared about. In the post-war family rhetoric
if you weren't "family" you were "other." These days, "other" is the
norm.
William
www.williamahearn.com
calvin
Your posts are interesting but I don't get a coherent point
except the cynical one that movies are only products to
sell, with no other considerations. I don't believe that even
you think that. Stanley Kramer was interested only in money?
I like Kramer, by the way. He was an old fashioned liberal
like me.
"Aggressively white cowboy movies"? This is the first time
I've heard that. Maybe that was an invented traditional value,
but a trivial one. Very little about cowboy movies was
historically accurate. Yes, I suppose you can give examples
of invented genres, and of sentiments like 'crime doesn't pay'.
I thought nick's claim that Hollywood invented our traditional
values was meant to have more substance than that.
At any rate, the 'Hollywood' I complain about is the aggregate
of filmmakers in modern times. And there always are
exceptions. 'The Hurt Locker' was not anti-American, but it might
be hard to name another movie about that region of the world that
was not anti-American.
william
>
> Your posts are interesting but I don't get a coherent point
> except the cynical one that movies are only products to
> sell, with no other considerations. I don't believe that even
> you think that. Stanley Kramer was interested only in money?
> I like Kramer, by the way. He was an old fashioned liberal
> like me.
It isn't about Stanley Kramer, per se. It's about his ability to sell
tickets over the course of a career and the studios backing him --
even if they fought most of the time. I don't see that as cynical but
as a realistic assessment. Why so many remakes these days? Because
they're cheap and they make money.
>
> "Aggressively white cowboy movies"? This is the first time
> I've heard that.
The first time I heard the term "aggressively white" it was used to
describe a Woody Allen movie.
>
> At any rate, the 'Hollywood' I complain about is the aggregate
> of filmmakers in modern times. And there always are
> exceptions. 'The Hurt Locker' was not anti-American, but it might
> be hard to name another movie about that region of the world that
> was not anti-American.
And again, these are reflections from a box office of our times. Keep
in mind that "The Hurt Locker" is about the only Iraqi war movie that
made any money and it didn't exactly set the weekend grosses on fire.
There's also a difference between anti-American and anti-US policy.
"Missing" is an example of that.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Anthony Buckland
"calvin" <cri...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:8efb1266-e177-4ec8...@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>Okay, how about a few examples of Hollywood movies that
>invented traditional values? I expect that the best anyone
>will be able to do is name some movies that appealed to
>traditional values, not invented them.
Star Wars, Episode IV: A new Hope
AZ Nomad
Traditional values? Like 'don't think for yourself', if you believe shit you're
told to then it'll be true for you, have a healthy fear of outsiders,
beat your children if they misbehave, stuff like that?
nick
Well, there's this. Not a movie but a TV show--
'Movies and TV shows with gay characters could be ineligible for a
"family-friendly" tax credit in Florida under a little-noticed
provision tucked into a $75 million incentive package that Republican
House leaders hope will attract film and entertainment jobs to the
state.
The bill would prohibit productions with "nontraditional family
values" from receiving a so-called family-friendly tax credit. But it
doesn't define what "nontraditional family values" are, something the
bill's sponsor had a hard time doing, too.
"Think of it as like Mayberry," state Rep. Stephen Precourt, R-
Orlando, said, referring to The Andy Griffith Show. "That's when I
grew up — the '60s. That's what life was like."'
Tom
Thanks for the link. That's an interesting article.
The last sentence of the paragraph is quite telling... "Like it used to
be, you know?"
Just what we need; another backward looking politician.
This guy from Florida sounds like a couple of the posters here... they
cling to their idealized vision of the past. We all remember our
childhoods more warmly than they actually were.
Our memories betray us.
Any decade that gave us McCarthyism, blacklisting and the
military-industrial complex may be interesting, but it's not remembered
fondly.
Tom