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CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER (no spoilers)

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moviePig

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Sep 10, 2014, 8:27:44 AM9/10/14
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CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
not a fan, I gave the DVD a shot anyway. Bottom line: it's big,
energetic, and often funny ...but not enough to convert me. (In
contrast, I'm looking forward to another well-reviewed GUARDIANS.)
Somewhat recommended.

--

- - - - - - - -
YOUR taste at work...
http://www.moviepig.com

trotsky

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Sep 11, 2014, 7:00:34 AM9/11/14
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On 9/10/14 7:27 AM, moviePig wrote:
>
> CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
> GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
> not a fan,


What is it that you're not a fan of--Marvel, movies made from comics, or
Capt. America?

moviePig

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Sep 11, 2014, 8:23:33 AM9/11/14
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Yes (...the whole schmear). What's more interesting, as I see it, is
how GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY managed to run my blockade. I'm guessing
that its wryness somehow let me not *feel* like a fan...

Obveeus

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Sep 11, 2014, 8:33:19 AM9/11/14
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On 9/11/2014 8:23 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 9/11/2014 7:00 AM, trotsky wrote:
>> On 9/10/14 7:27 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>
>>> CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
>>> GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
>>> not a fan,
>>
>>
>> What is it that you're not a fan of--Marvel, movies made from comics, or
>> Capt. America?
>
> Yes (...the whole schmear). What's more interesting, as I see it, is
> how GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY managed to run my blockade. I'm guessing
> that its wryness somehow let me not *feel* like a fan...

It also helped that they weren't wearing spandex.

moviePig

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Sep 11, 2014, 8:46:23 AM9/11/14
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Moreover, the raccoon and the tree would seem unlikely to.

trotsky

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Sep 11, 2014, 8:46:49 AM9/11/14
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On 9/11/14 7:23 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 9/11/2014 7:00 AM, trotsky wrote:
>> On 9/10/14 7:27 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>
>>> CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
>>> GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
>>> not a fan,
>>
>>
>> What is it that you're not a fan of--Marvel, movies made from comics, or
>> Capt. America?
>
> Yes (...the whole schmear).


And does this include graphic novels such as "Sin City" and "The Crow".
I find this hard to believe.

moviePig

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Sep 11, 2014, 9:26:45 AM9/11/14
to
On 9/11/2014 8:46 AM, trotsky wrote:
> On 9/11/14 7:23 AM, moviePig wrote:
>> On 9/11/2014 7:00 AM, trotsky wrote:
>>> On 9/10/14 7:27 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>>
>>>> CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
>>>> GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
>>>> not a fan,
>>>
>>>
>>> What is it that you're not a fan of--Marvel, movies made from comics, or
>>> Capt. America?
>>
>> Yes (...the whole schmear).
>
>
> And does this include graphic novels such as "Sin City" and "The Crow".
> I find this hard to believe.
> ...

I've yet to read a graphic-novel that even momentarily breaks free of
its form and immerses me fully. Other media -- books, movies, even
radio -- manage at least occasionally to do that. Admittedly, I don't
read them regularly, so maybe there's acclimatization to be achieved.
Still, I'd argue that the medium's pretty resistant, at least to me.

Scott

unread,
Sep 11, 2014, 8:19:00 PM9/11/14
to
You're not the only one, champ. While I appreciate the art form,
as a storytelling medium it just doesn't grab me.

As for GUARDIANS, I was rather disappointed. It felt too much like
AVENGERS. I expected more humour (I'll admit the raccoon-not-a-raccoon
certainly lent entertainment value, it wasn't enough to shake the
aforementioned feeling).

Russell Watson

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Sep 11, 2014, 9:12:50 PM9/11/14
to
I have absolutely loved comics since I was 5 or 6 years old and my
Granny used to save the Sunday paper comic sections for me from her
paper and give them to me when we would go to visit. Few years later I
got into comic books proper an read them until I finished high school.
However, even coming from that perspective I can get where you're coming
from because as much as I have loved them over the years, they don't
grab me like well-written prose or movies/TV. I read comics with sort of
the same semi-detached mindset with which I watch subtitled movies: one
part of my brain handles reading the dialogue while another processes
the visuals, and there is a disconnect in the switching back and forth
that keeps from getting completely (just experienced this last night
watching "Let the Right One In" on Starz) that also occurs between
reading the dialogue/thought balloons/exposition bits and looking at the
art in a comic book.
What I really like about comics is the content: the heroic struggle
(even though in most of the traditional ones you know the hero will
prevail, as it is only in odd ensembles like "The Walking Dead" where a
primary character sometimes does not survive), etc., especially from the
'70s on when the heroes have been presented as somewhat flawed
characters and sometimes downright reluctant heroes instead of stand-ins
for Jesus Christ in tights and a cape. Was a time that was only
available in comics or paperback reprints of pulp heroes from the '30s
who were the closest thing to comics characters in prose form. These
days novels dealing with the same characters/concepts are pretty common,
while as we all know, the movies are damn near ubiquitous.
Given a choice between reading the many issues of "Batman" that make up
the "Knightfall" story arc, watching Nolan's treatment of same (sort of:
general idea, anyway) in "The Dark Knight Rises" or reading Denny
O'Neil's novelization of the story, I would take them in reverse order,
with the novel being first pick, the film second and the original format
dead last.

trotsky

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Sep 12, 2014, 6:26:44 AM9/12/14
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I'm confused--I thought we were talking about your disdain for movies
made from comics--graphic novels are a type of comic book.

TeeJay1952

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Sep 12, 2014, 6:32:57 AM9/12/14
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On 9/11/2014 9:26 AM, moviePig wrote:

>>
>> And does this include graphic novels such as "Sin City" and "The Crow".
>> I find this hard to believe.
> > ...
>
> I've yet to read a graphic-novel that even momentarily breaks free of
> its form and immerses me fully. Other media -- books, movies, even
> radio -- manage at least occasionally to do that. Admittedly, I don't
> read them regularly, so maybe there's acclimatization to be achieved.
> Still, I'd argue that the medium's pretty resistant, at least to me.
>
I hope you have tried Watchmen or V is for Vengeance bu Alan Moore. Both
are adult in execution and storyline.

Tee Jay
ps I think comic book movies are like salt. A little bit adds some spice
but it is easy to overload until health crisis.

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:06:31 AM9/12/14
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I suppose it certainly *should* have felt like AVENGERS (which I also
mostly enjoyed). What I found hard to assess is how well those flicks
-- even the few I like -- would've work on the small screen, as I find
big-screen 3D a significant plus (and strongly suspect CAPT. AMERICA
would've thus benefited).

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:17:18 AM9/12/14
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I grew up on comic books, too. (E.g., I always resented Superman, who
seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.) So, it's not as though I was raised
by wolves. Still haven't found that gateway reopened for "grownup"
material, though. I'd bet that the Batman novelization you cite and
prefer was effectively 'R' rated.

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:26:14 AM9/12/14
to
Yes, I see, I took a wrong fork. Re comic-book movies, I hope 'disdain'
is too negative a word. They simply don't connect with me. Sure,
there's an accompanying tendency to see their grownup fans as fixated
pre-adolescents ...but then I need only remind myself how *I* can seldom
walk past a horror movie, even a shitty one made for mouth-breathers.

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:34:49 AM9/12/14
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Tried 'Watchmen' -- tried hard, even -- but eventually put it down.
Maybe the most solidly "adult" effort I've seen is Bendis's 'Torso',
whose content and form are straightforwardly grownup. Yet it still
couldn't shake my sense that I'd plucked it from the Young Person's
Shelf of my local library. Of course, the careful scientist might warn
of a chicken-and-egg bind here, and, who knows, he might be right...

Bill Anderson

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:37:56 AM9/12/14
to
On 9/12/2014 8:17 AM, moviePig wrote:

>
> I always resented Superman, who
> seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.

Ah. This explains so much!

--
Bill Anderson

I am the Mighty Favog

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 9:53:56 AM9/12/14
to
On 9/12/2014 9:37 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
> On 9/12/2014 8:17 AM, moviePig wrote:
>
>>
>> I always resented Superman, who
>> seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.
>
> Ah. This explains so much!

Kltpzyxm...

Bill Anderson

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Sep 12, 2014, 11:39:40 AM9/12/14
to
On 9/12/2014 8:53 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 9/12/2014 9:37 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
>> On 9/12/2014 8:17 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I always resented Superman, who
>>> seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.
>>
>> Ah. This explains so much!
>
> Kltpzyxm...
>

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

Yay! I've out-obscure referenced the Pig! Or have I?

Russell Watson

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Sep 12, 2014, 12:25:46 PM9/12/14
to
Actually it wasn't. I was just citing it because it worked through the
comics-film-prose analogy I was working for. Only material that came
immediately to mind that worked across the spectrum. However, "The
Walking Dead" is a more "adult" (and modern) case in point, wherein
there are the original comics, the TV series and a trio of novels that
provide some exposition for the comics by providing the back story of a
character whose past is a little vague in the comics. There again, I
like the novels better than comics or TV series.

Russell Watson

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Sep 12, 2014, 12:28:17 PM9/12/14
to
As for "adult" comics/graphic novels that have had film adaptations I
would think that "A History of Violence" and "The Road to Perdition"
would suffice?

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 12:55:19 PM9/12/14
to
On 9/12/2014 11:39 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
> On 9/12/2014 8:53 AM, moviePig wrote:
>> On 9/12/2014 9:37 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
>>> On 9/12/2014 8:17 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I always resented Superman, who
>>>> seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.
>>>
>>> Ah. This explains so much!
>>
>> Kltpzyxm...
>>
>
> This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
>
> Yay! I've out-obscure referenced the Pig! Or have I?

Out-obscuring me won't get you on 'The Chase'. (Good game show, btw.)
But, indeed, I don't even see your reference... or how to Google it...

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 1:15:16 PM9/12/14
to
I scoped the first 'Walking Dead' graphic-novel when the TV show was
announced. I expected that the show (eventually a favorite) wouldn't be
worth watching, and the GN did little to enthuse me. Although years of
Romero et al. had steeped me in the visual and emotional repertoire of
the zombie menace, the cartoon images were unable to tap into it.
(Fwiw, I'm guessing that color stills -- i.e., "perfect" art-work --
would've fared no better.) Re novelized Batman, I checked Amazon for a
sneak-peek at the prose, but they weren't giving any out...

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 1:22:00 PM9/12/14
to
Yeah, aHOV made the grade -- as a movie, anyway. But, although RTP had a
lot of top-notch virtuosity, its ending felt soft -- like overcooked
noir from a graphic novel trying too hard. (I didn't know either movie
was a GN when I watched it, and have never read them.)

Russell Watson

unread,
Sep 12, 2014, 4:33:29 PM9/12/14
to
Don't me wrong: I was not trying to imply that it's a "great" book full
of riveting word-imagery by any stretch. Just that of the 3 formats in
which some version of the story is available that is the one I prefer.
Both the comics and novel offer something that was missing from Nolan's
take: once Bruce Wayne returns from his crippling injury he not only has
to defeat Bane, but then also has to take down the person who assumed
the mantle of Caped Crusader in his absence, but who doesn't share his
personal code of ethics and is more of a vigilante in the judge, jury
and executioner sense of the word. Would have liked to have seen that
worked into the movie but Nolan had other ideas.

Bill Anderson

unread,
Sep 12, 2014, 5:48:36 PM9/12/14
to
On 9/12/2014 11:55 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 9/12/2014 11:39 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
>> On 9/12/2014 8:53 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>> On 9/12/2014 9:37 AM, Bill Anderson wrote:
>>>> On 9/12/2014 8:17 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I always resented Superman, who
>>>>> seemed a cut-rate Captain Marvel.
>>>>
>>>> Ah. This explains so much!
>>>
>>> Kltpzyxm...
>>>
>>
>> This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
>>
>> Yay! I've out-obscure referenced the Pig! Or have I?
>
> Out-obscuring me won't get you on 'The Chase'. (Good game show, btw.)
> But, indeed, I don't even see your reference... or how to Google it...
>

When Mr. Mxyzptlk says his name as you did, he is whisked home to the
Fifth Dimension where they're always singing their greatest hits. Never
mind. Carry on.

moviePig

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Sep 12, 2014, 6:22:07 PM9/12/14
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Well, I *thought* you were saying you'd obscure-referenced me in your
*first* message (and celebrating with a hippie chorus). Now, if I'd
understood that the 'Aquarius' line was your obscure reference.... why
then.... I'd still have had no freakin' idea.

moviePig

unread,
Sep 12, 2014, 6:28:38 PM9/12/14
to
Can't go too far with the judge/jury/executioner thing and stay 'PG'
(...which is what I was expecting the novelization to be freed of).

Mr. Hole the Magnificent

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Sep 13, 2014, 1:12:00 AM9/13/14
to
On Wednesday, September 10, 2014 8:27:44 AM UTC-4, moviePig wrote:
> CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER is a Marvel movie that, like
>
> GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY, got unusually warm reception. So, though I'm
>
> not a fan, I gave the DVD a shot anyway. Bottom line: it's big,
>
> energetic, and often funny ...but not enough to convert me. (In
>
> contrast, I'm looking forward to another well-reviewed GUARDIANS.)
>
> Somewhat recommended.

What did you think of Redford?

trotsky

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Sep 13, 2014, 7:30:48 AM9/13/14
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Everybody's got their thing. I like a great many of the comic book
movies, however, one thing I find infuriating is their penchant telling
and retelling and telling a third time the origin stories. I remember
as a ute I would always hate when they'd have a "special edition" where
they reprint the origin story because they weren't a go for the next new
installment of the story. For example, I don't think Spiderman's origin
needed to be told twice, it really didn't even need to be shown once.
They could've just picked up in the middle and most of the target
audience wouldn't have a problem.

moviePig

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Sep 13, 2014, 9:14:35 AM9/13/14
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By (and for some time) now, Redford is a presence. And he was present.
I don't mean that disparagingly -- but it's also in the nature of
comic-book movies that he had his character's destiny stamped all over him.

Bill Steele

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Sep 15, 2014, 1:16:57 PM9/15/14
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Well, for *really* obscure reference on a cut-rate Captain Marvel:

Stquostas.

Bill Steele

unread,
Sep 15, 2014, 1:32:07 PM9/15/14
to
On 9/12/14, 9:26 AM, moviePig wrote:
> Re comic-book movies, I hope 'disdain' is too negative a word. They
> simply don't connect with me. Sure, there's an accompanying tendency to
> see their grownup fans as fixated pre-adolescents ...but then I need
> only remind myself how *I* can seldom walk past a horror movie, even a
> shitty one made for mouth-breathers.


I like entertainments that have a sense of wonder -- where things happen
that don't happen in the everyday world (I get enough everyday world
every day...) People fly. Zombies walk. Saying things backward makes
magic. Sharks fall out of the sky.

Comic books can do this better than anything else: It takes the same
amount of work to make people fly as it does to have people standing
around talking.

moviePig

unread,
Sep 15, 2014, 2:29:20 PM9/15/14
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What's that ...some kind of evil 'shazam'-opposition acronym? The best
Google could suggest for it was 'coquille st. jacques'...

moviePig

unread,
Sep 15, 2014, 2:31:03 PM9/15/14
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But, in a world where anything goes, nothing goes very far...

Russell Watson

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Sep 15, 2014, 4:55:44 PM9/15/14
to
On 9/15/2014 1:32 PM, Bill Steele wrote:
Yep. After 20 years the Miracleman (what the original Captain Marvel
eventually morphed into) graphic novel _A Dream of Flying_ is back in
print. It's only in hardback and is $30 but every time I go into B&N and
see it the temptation to buy is strong.

Invid Fan

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Sep 15, 2014, 7:31:53 PM9/15/14
to
In article <lv7joe$35f$1...@dont-email.me>, Russell Watson
I haven't found out yet if it has the original introduction. The first
issue had an old "Marvelman" comic with, I think, new dialog. The
classic story ended with a zoom into his eye, and the now overused
quote about the Superman. Then we got the first new page. The old trade
paperback version skipped right to the new stuff, perhaps due to rights
reasons.

--
Chris Mack "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan' - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'

Russell Watson

unread,
Sep 15, 2014, 9:00:01 PM9/15/14
to
Interesting. I'll have to see if there's a sample. Most of the stuff
available through the Comix app on my Kindle has the first 3 pages for
you to check out so I'll have to see if that one is on there.

Bill Steele

unread,
Sep 16, 2014, 2:19:15 PM9/16/14
to
In a Golden Age story, Billy Batson is somehow transported to the
future, where one of his descendants still becomes Captain Marvel. But
this is a cut-rate Cap, can't fly and wimpy. turns out that in the
future, language uses a lot of abbreviated words -- kind of like the
Japanese do a lot: "heli" for helicopter. So the magic word is "Shaz."
No Achilles, no Mercury, no courage or invulnerability, no flying.
(You'd think Zeus could fly if he wanted to.)

Figuring in the story were the stquostas, which translates as both
teenager and sand-swimmer -- the kids could swim under the desert. I
figured that was more obscure than Shaz, and people would just think
that was a typo.

moviePig

unread,
Sep 16, 2014, 2:33:33 PM9/16/14
to
'Sand-swimmers'? As though being sued by Superman wasn't enough, the
Captain's got to take on Muad'Dib...

Bill Steele

unread,
Sep 17, 2014, 1:32:03 PM9/17/14
to
On 9/16/14, 2:33 PM, moviePig wrote:
>> In a Golden Age story, Billy Batson is somehow transported to the
>> future, where one of his descendants still becomes Captain Marvel. But
>> this is a cut-rate Cap, can't fly and wimpy. turns out that in the
>> future, language uses a lot of abbreviated words -- kind of like the
>> Japanese do a lot: "heli" for helicopter. So the magic word is "Shaz."
>> No Achilles, no Mercury, no courage or invulnerability, no flying.
>> (You'd think Zeus could fly if he wanted to.)
>>
>> Figuring in the story were the stquostas, which translates as both
>> teenager and sand-swimmer -- the kids could swim under the desert. I
>> figured that was more obscure than Shaz, and people would just think
>> that was a typo.
>
> 'Sand-swimmers'? As though being sued by Superman wasn't enough, the
> Captain's got to take on Muad'Dib...

Actually the other way around. Dune was 1966. This was somewhere in the
50s. And they were people, not worms.

moviePig

unread,
Sep 17, 2014, 2:34:46 PM9/17/14
to
Didn't you read 'Dune'? Worms are gods; people are the larval stage...

trotsky

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Sep 18, 2014, 8:43:52 AM9/18/14
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Maybe the real problem was Frank Herbert not reading Darwin.

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