Fantastic Four "Doom's Master" storyline
Peter Cushing's Ghost
Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. The whole throw-away epic (mental?
astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." It's almost
always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
reader.
And now we have "Super-Doom?" More Doom than Doom has ever been? This Doom
goes to 11? Ugh.
The one thing Millar got right even if the outcome was totally predictable
was the handling of The Things non-wedding. Of course, the fact that
Grimm's enemies now know that he even had feelings for his ex-fianc�e
wouldn't let her off the hook for any sort of sordid "revenge" plot in the
future, but that's just another example of lazy plotting - or ingenious
foreshadowing, I suppose.
I will say Immonen's art admirably kept a look of consistency with former
artist Brian Hitch's style (really, who thought Hitch could keep making a
monthly deadline?).
Hopefully, the next team will bring some solid storytelling.
T.B.
Anim8rFSK
"Peter Cushing's Ghost" <unk...@unknownmailingaddress.com> wrote:
> Finished reading FF #569 for the 3rd time. There's a lot I liked about
> Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
> of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. The whole throw-away epic (mental?
> astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
> if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." It's almost
> always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
> they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
> put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
> reader.
>
> And now we have "Super-Doom?" More Doom than Doom has ever been? This Doom
> goes to 11? Ugh.
>
> The one thing Millar got right even if the outcome was totally predictable
> was the handling of The Things non-wedding. Of course, the fact that
> Grimm's enemies now know that he even had feelings for his ex-fianc�e
> wouldn't let her off the hook for any sort of sordid "revenge" plot in the
> future, but that's just another example of lazy plotting - or ingenious
> foreshadowing, I suppose.
Pretty much "what you said" across the board, with one addition.
At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
bemoaning the women they lost. Spidey is thinking of Gwen, and says
that there isn't a day that he doesn't wish for her sake that he'd never
met her.
Um - say WHAT?
Thanks to JMS and his perverted sexual fantasies he inflicted on us,
Gwen is now just a slut who got knocked up by Osborn and he killed her
to keep her magic babies a secret. Spidey had nothing to do with it (I
don't even know why he was there), and how could he have in any event,
since nobody ever knew his real identity (although I suppose it's
possible that as badly messed up as OMD/BND is, that Osborn USED to know
his ID, and forgot, and Peter remembers he knew, but that still doesn't
undo the Gwen retcon, it would just explain why Peter got invited to the
event).
I'd say FF is in another continuity than BND, except we've seen the
magic memory erasing bit at work in FF (although now it looks like he
might not even know that ultimately Mephisto is behind it)
Gah
Would have worked better if he was pining for MJ. Maybe.
--
Uncle Jack: "Will, you're invisible!"
Will: "Invisible? I can't be! I can touch myself!"
--actual dialog from third season LAND OF THE LOST
Daibhid Ceanaideach
I think you mean "Thanks to Joey Q and his obsession that Spider-Man
Mustn't Look Middle Aged, so JMS had to completely rewrite his story
about Gwen secretly having *Pete's* kids..."
> Gwen is now just a slut who got knocked up by Osborn and he killed her
> to keep her magic babies a secret. Spidey had nothing to do with it
> (I don't even know why he was there), and how could he have in any
> event, since nobody ever knew his real identity (although I suppose
> it's possible that as badly messed up as OMD/BND is, that Osborn USED
> to know his ID, and forgot, and Peter remembers he knew, but that
> still doesn't undo the Gwen retcon, it would just explain why Peter
> got invited to the event).
That does appear to be how it works. It makes all kinds of no sense, but
then, it's OMD.
> I'd say FF is in another continuity than BND, except we've seen the
> magic memory erasing bit at work in FF (although now it looks like he
> might not even know that ultimately Mephisto is behind it)
>
> Gah
>
> Would have worked better if he was pining for MJ. Maybe.
Peter ... isn't all that bright these days. I mean, OMD proved that. It's
entirely possible that he's *forgotten* about Sins Past.
--
Dave
"All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
Billy Bissette
news:ANIM8Rfsk-084BE...@news.dc1.easynews.com:
> Spidey is thinking of Gwen, and says
> that there isn't a day that he doesn't wish for her sake that he'd
> never met her.
>
> Um - say WHAT?
>
> Thanks to JMS and his perverted sexual fantasies he inflicted on us,
> Gwen is now just a slut who got knocked up by Osborn and he killed her
> to keep her magic babies a secret.
As has been said many times before, blame Quesada, not JMS.
JMS's original idea was that Peter was the father of Gwen's kids.
Quesada ordered it changed so that Osborn was the father.
Anim8rFSK
Billy Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
JMS went along. JMS put his name on it. JMS wrote Gwen as a slut, a
willing participant, not a victim of rape, or Goblin mesmerism. JMS is
the perv that got his rocks off.
Billy Bissette
> In article <Xns9C5ECCCA63A5...@216.168.3.70>,
> Billy Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net> wrote in
>> news:ANIM8Rfsk-084BE...@news.dc1.easynews.com:
>>
>> > Spidey is thinking of Gwen, and says
>> > that there isn't a day that he doesn't wish for her sake that he'd
>> > never met her.
>> >
>> > Um - say WHAT?
>> >
>> > Thanks to JMS and his perverted sexual fantasies he inflicted on
>> > us, Gwen is now just a slut who got knocked up by Osborn and he
>> > killed her to keep her magic babies a secret.
>>
>> As has been said many times before, blame Quesada, not JMS.
>>
>> JMS's original idea was that Peter was the father of Gwen's kids.
>> Quesada ordered it changed so that Osborn was the father.
>
> JMS went along. JMS put his name on it. JMS wrote Gwen as a slut, a
> willing participant, not a victim of rape, or Goblin mesmerism. JMS
> is the perv that got his rocks off.
JMS took a job to write comics. His boss told him to change
something. What else is he supposed to do? Should he take a stand
and quit or something? Its just a job writing a comic book.
Editors have certainly done worse to storylines, characters, books,
and probably even careers over the years.
If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
out of it.
Anim8rFSK
Billy Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
JMS is willing to take the credit, he gets the blame. Besides, Quesada
told him the kids couldn't be Peter's -- he didn't tell him to make Gwen
a slut. The really sick aspects of it came from JMS's perverted
fantasies.
>
> If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
> personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
> Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
> Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
> wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
> out of it.
So he weaseled out AGAIN.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Actually, I believe Quesada came up with the bit about Norman being
the father so I don't see why all your hatred is directed at JMS...you
can clearly see from his writing on the book following Sins Past that
he wasn't having fun anymore...and, as much as I hate to defend
anything about Sins Past, I'd say Gwen having sex once in her whole
lifetime (as far as we know) isn't enough to make her a slut...no
matter who she had sex with...if anything, I'd argue it makes her look
more weak willed and pathetic than slutty...not that it's an
improvement of any kind.
If those ideas came from Quesada, then odds are the story was going to
happen whether JMS wrote it or not.
>>
>> If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
>> personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
>> Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
>> Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
>> wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
>> out of it.
>
>So he weaseled out AGAIN.
Would One More Day have been an even slightly better story if JMS HAD
taken his name off it? It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
keep it in continuity.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
But not Gwen being a slut or the whole continuity bit JMS blew
so I don't see why all your hatred is directed at JMS...you
> can clearly see from his writing on the book following Sins Past that
> he wasn't having fun anymore...and, as much as I hate to defend
> anything about Sins Past, I'd say Gwen having sex once in her whole
> lifetime (as far as we know) isn't enough to make her a slut...no
> matter who she had sex with...if anything, I'd argue it makes her look
> more weak willed and pathetic than slutty...not that it's an
> improvement of any kind.
Nope
>
> If those ideas came from Quesada, then odds are the story was going to
> happen whether JMS wrote it or not.
There's blame to go around, no question.
>
> >>
> >> If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
> >> personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
> >> Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
> >> Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
> >> wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
> >> out of it.
> >
> >So he weaseled out AGAIN.
>
> Would One More Day have been an even slightly better story if JMS HAD
> taken his name off it?
Yes
It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
> make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
> JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
> Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
> keep it in continuity.
Except, back to the point, in FF, it may NOT be in continuity; certainly
Peter seems to remember it the old way.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Again, I don't think it makes her a slut...just pathetic...and, as for
blowing continuity, it's hardly the worst continuity flub Marvel has
pulled...particularly given the way they basically tossed out 20 years
of Spidey stories at the end of that run...and those things were going
to happen with or without JMS...it was a terrible story no
question...but it wasn't the story he wanted to tell.
>
> so I don't see why all your hatred is directed at JMS...you
>> can clearly see from his writing on the book following Sins Past that
>> he wasn't having fun anymore...and, as much as I hate to defend
>> anything about Sins Past, I'd say Gwen having sex once in her whole
>> lifetime (as far as we know) isn't enough to make her a slut...no
>> matter who she had sex with...if anything, I'd argue it makes her look
>> more weak willed and pathetic than slutty...not that it's an
>> improvement of any kind.
>
>Nope
>>
>> If those ideas came from Quesada, then odds are the story was going to
>> happen whether JMS wrote it or not.
>
>There's blame to go around, no question.
>>
>> >>
>> >> If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
>> >> personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
>> >> Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
>> >> Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
>> >> wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
>> >> out of it.
>> >
>> >So he weaseled out AGAIN.
>>
>> Would One More Day have been an even slightly better story if JMS HAD
>> taken his name off it?
>
>Yes
How do you figure?
>
> It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
>> make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
>> JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
>> Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
>> keep it in continuity.
>
>Except, back to the point, in FF, it may NOT be in continuity; certainly
>Peter seems to remember it the old way.
Not necessarily...Gwen was killed by his archnemesis during one of
their fights...regardless of the reasons behind it, it's entirely
possible that Peter could believe she would have been better off never
having met him.
On the other hand, Spiderman's continuity is fucked up all over and
Brand New Day often does seem to be off in its own world...for
instance, we know Sins Past is still in continuity since One More Day
because it was referenced in Thunderbolts no long ago...but then a
recent issue of Amazing has Norman disowning Harry and saying his new
kid with Menace will be his only son (totally ignoring the twins)...I
suspect Sins Past is more like the Clone Saga...still technically in
continuity but mostly ignored...although the Clone Saga is apparently
making a come back so it's probably only a matter of time before the
twins pop up again.
Hand-of-Omega
<unkn...@unknownmailingaddress.com> wrote:
> Finished reading FF #569 for the 3rd time. There's a lot I liked about
> Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
> of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. The whole throw-away epic (mental?
> astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
> if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." It's almost
> always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
> they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
> put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
> reader.
>
> And now we have "Super-Doom?" More Doom than Doom has ever been? This Doom
> goes to 11? Ugh.
>
Apprentice, asthe Master would have seen thru that. He really WAS torn
apart by megasharks, but *somehow* survived, and spent millenia
mastering arcane secrets to rebuild his body, from the molecules up?
All so that he could re apprentice himself to the Marquis, learn all
he could and eventually betray him?
So now, Dr. Doom is ancient, effectively immortal, and a master of
magic (I suppose, those powers are never really explained; the Marquis
powers were apparently mutant psionics, like Franklin...)? Ok, first
we need to see why this "deadlier than ever" Doom isn't just throwing
people in death traps, but doesn't just take over the world
immediately, or this all falls apart. And somehow, I doubt that Doom
will show any signs of any of this the next time the Dark Illuminati
get together...
BTW, the man the Marquis was based on, did he really appear in an
earlier story? Was it consistent with this one? For that matter, was
there any hint that the Apprentice was really Doom?
Dex
Hand-of-Omega
> In article <I4idnUgftaAMIeTXnZ2dnUVZ_rmdn...@giganews.com>,
> "Peter Cushing's Ghost" <unkn...@unknownmailingaddress.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Finished reading FF #569 for the 3rd time. There's a lot I liked about
> > Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
> > of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. The whole throw-away epic (mental?
> > astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
> > if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." It's almost
> > always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
> > they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
> > put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
> > reader.
>
> > And now we have "Super-Doom?" More Doom than Doom has ever been? This Doom
> > goes to 11? Ugh.
>
> > The one thing Millar got right even if the outcome was totally predictable
> > was the handling of The Things non-wedding. Of course, the fact that
> > wouldn't let her off the hook for any sort of sordid "revenge" plot in the
> > future, but that's just another example of lazy plotting - or ingenious
> > foreshadowing, I suppose.
>
> Pretty much "what you said" across the board, with one addition.
>
> At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
> they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
> bemoaning the women they lost. Spidey is thinking of Gwen, and says
> that there isn't a day that he doesn't wish for her sake that he'd never
> met her.
>
> Um - say WHAT?
I'm a little more concerned with how Ben even *knew* about her...or
about some of the other girls shown. Has he been shown to even know
who Daredevil really is?
Dex
grinningdemon
<hando...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Aug 5, 3:50�pm, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
>> In article <I4idnUgftaAMIeTXnZ2dnUVZ_rmdn...@giganews.com>,
>> �"Peter Cushing's Ghost" <unkn...@unknownmailingaddress.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Finished reading FF #569 for the 3rd time. �There's a lot I liked about
>> > Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
>> > of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. �The whole throw-away epic (mental?
>> > astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
>> > if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." � It's almost
>> > always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
>> > they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
>> > put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
>> > reader.
>>
>> > And now we have "Super-Doom?" �More Doom than Doom has ever been? �This Doom
>> > goes to 11? �Ugh.
>>
>> > The one thing Millar got right even if the outcome was totally predictable
>> > was the handling of The Things non-wedding. �Of course, the fact that
>> > Grimm's enemies now know that he even had feelings for his ex-fianc�e
>> > wouldn't let her off the hook for any sort of sordid "revenge" plot in the
>> > future, but that's just another example of lazy plotting - or ingenious
>> > foreshadowing, I suppose.
>>
>> Pretty much "what you said" across the board, with one addition.
>>
>> At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
>> they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
>> bemoaning the women they lost. �Spidey is thinking of Gwen, and says
>> that there isn't a day that he doesn't wish for her sake that he'd never
>> met her.
>>
>> Um - say WHAT?
>
>I'm a little more concerned with how Ben even *knew* about her...or
>about some of the other girls shown. Has he been shown to even know
>who Daredevil really is?
>
>Dex
Everyone knows who Daredevil is now...it's public knowledge...but I
don't recall them being friends to the point where he should be at the
wedding...and it doesn't really seem in character for him to be there
from DD's side either.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Remember THE STARLOST? We were all excited that Harlan Ellison was
creating a TV show. But the producers mucked it up so much, that HE had
his name taken off of it. And so it was credited "Created by Cordwainer
Bird" and we knew we were getting a hack job and watched out of
curiousity. This made it palatable, like watching an MST3K version of
something. But JMS doesn't have the moral fiber HE does, and put Sins
Past out with his name on it. HE gave the audience fair warning of what
was about to be inflicted on them.
>
> >
> > It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
> >> make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
> >> JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
> >> Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
> >> keep it in continuity.
> >
> >Except, back to the point, in FF, it may NOT be in continuity; certainly
> >Peter seems to remember it the old way.
>
> Not necessarily...Gwen was killed by his archnemesis during one of
> their fights...regardless of the reasons behind it, it's entirely
> possible that Peter could believe she would have been better off never
> having met him.
Well, as I read it, the Goblin captured her to kill her, and Spidey
tried to save her and failed. She wasn't killed as a byproduct of one
of their fights any more.
>
> On the other hand, Spiderman's continuity is fucked up all over and
> Brand New Day often does seem to be off in its own world...for
> instance, we know Sins Past is still in continuity since One More Day
> because it was referenced in Thunderbolts no long ago...but then a
Was it? I remember Norman having them bring in hookers to dress as Gwen
so he could kill them for fun, but that could harken back to the
original. What Sins Past specific ref was in TBolts?
> recent issue of Amazing has Norman disowning Harry and saying his new
> kid with Menace will be his only son (totally ignoring the twins)...I
yeah, that was interesting
> suspect Sins Past is more like the Clone Saga...still technically in
> continuity but mostly ignored...although the Clone Saga is apparently
> making a come back so it's probably only a matter of time before the
> twins pop up again.
ick
Anim8rFSK
<ebc8a375-ded2-4502...@d34g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Hand-of-Omega <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 1:08�pm, "Peter Cushing's Ghost"
> <unkn...@unknownmailingaddress.com> wrote:
> > Finished reading FF #569 for the 3rd time. �There's a lot I liked about
> > Millar's run on this book but the last chapter in the current story reeked
> > of lazy, rushed storytelling, imo. �The whole throw-away epic (mental?
> > astrophysical?) battle between "Clyde" and The Marquis was poorly handled as
> > if a big two page spread would somehow make it seem "epic." � It's almost
> > always a given that when you make your super villains so all-powerful that
> > they decimate whole planets and snuff out the sun that when it comes time to
> > put 'em away, the resolution is going to be lame and hard to swallow for the
> > reader.
> >
> > And now we have "Super-Doom?" �More Doom than Doom has ever been? �This Doom
> > goes to 11? �Ugh.
> >
> So, let me get this straight--Doom didn't switch bodies with the
> Apprentice, asthe Master would have seen thru that. He really WAS torn
> apart by megasharks, but *somehow* survived, and spent millenia
> mastering arcane secrets to rebuild his body, from the molecules up?
> All so that he could re apprentice himself to the Marquis, learn all
> he could and eventually betray him?
And Doom has been coexisting with his real self the last 40 years and it
never occured to him to just kill the master and come to Earth and whack
Richards back in college.
>
> So now, Dr. Doom is ancient, effectively immortal, and a master of
> magic (I suppose, those powers are never really explained; the Marquis
> powers were apparently mutant psionics, like Franklin...)? Ok, first
> we need to see why this "deadlier than ever" Doom isn't just throwing
> people in death traps, but doesn't just take over the world
> immediately, or this all falls apart. And somehow, I doubt that Doom
> will show any signs of any of this the next time the Dark Illuminati
> get together...
>
> BTW, the man the Marquis was based on, did he really appear in an
> earlier story? Was it consistent with this one? For that matter, was
> there any hint that the Apprentice was really Doom?
No, but I figured he was, just because A) he was gonna turn out to be
somebody and 2) Doom was gonna turn out to be somebody.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Yeah, that all seemed like a throwback to Lee/Kirby days when the whole
superhero community were buds and all invited, in costume.
Brian Henderson
> JMS took a job to write comics. His boss told him to change
> something. What else is he supposed to do? Should he take a stand
> and quit or something? Its just a job writing a comic book.
> Editors have certainly done worse to storylines, characters, books,
> and probably even careers over the years.
Considering that JMS was very vocal at the time that he was doing
everything his way... hell yes. Or he could prove himself to be the
hypocrite that eventually was proven anyhow. JMS has made a career of
acting like he makes all his own decisions and doesn't take crap from
anyone, but the fact is, he backs down as soon as anyone says boo.
> If JMS didn't go along, Quesada would either do the rewrite
> personally or get someone else to do it. Indeed, that is what
> Quesada would do later for the end of One More Day. JMS found
> Quesada's rewrite there to be extensive enough that he(JMS)
> wanted his own name taken off the issue, until he was talked
> out of it.
Well, he says he did. I've learned not to trust JMS farther than I can
throw him.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>> How do you figure?
>
>Remember THE STARLOST? We were all excited that Harlan Ellison was
>creating a TV show. But the producers mucked it up so much, that HE had
>his name taken off of it. And so it was credited "Created by Cordwainer
>Bird" and we knew we were getting a hack job and watched out of
>curiousity. This made it palatable, like watching an MST3K version of
>something. But JMS doesn't have the moral fiber HE does, and put Sins
>Past out with his name on it. HE gave the audience fair warning of what
>was about to be inflicted on them.
Except NO ONE was excited about One More Day...we all knew it was
going to be crap from day one...the only question was exactly how
crappy it was going to be...and, whether or not it had JMS' name on
it, it still would have been every bit as crappy.
Let me ask you this? If, say, JMS had quit writing Spiderman over
Quesada changing his plans for Sins Past but the story still came out
more or less as is by some other writer, would you blame THAT writer
or would you finally be willing to place the blame where it belongs?
Because, even if he hadn't come up with Norman as the father...even if
he hadn't been the one who spearheaded One More Day and all the
bullshit thereafter...he would still be the guy in the best position
to stop it...and, if he cared even a tiny bit as much about Spiderman
as he claims, he would have...Quesada killed Spiderman...and,
apparently, Gwen's memory.
>>
>> >
>> > It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
>> >> make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
>> >> JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
>> >> Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
>> >> keep it in continuity.
>> >
>> >Except, back to the point, in FF, it may NOT be in continuity; certainly
>> >Peter seems to remember it the old way.
>>
>> Not necessarily...Gwen was killed by his archnemesis during one of
>> their fights...regardless of the reasons behind it, it's entirely
>> possible that Peter could believe she would have been better off never
>> having met him.
>
>Well, as I read it, the Goblin captured her to kill her, and Spidey
>tried to save her and failed. She wasn't killed as a byproduct of one
>of their fights any more.
Well, I think interpretations vary (from story to story...and reader
to reader) but, regardless, this is Spiderman we're talking about...if
Gwen so much as got a hangnail he would have found a way to blame
himself for it...don't you know that everything bad that happens in
the world is Spidey's fault...never mind anything bad that happens to
someone close to him...and there's also the very real possibilty that,
had Gwen never been a part of Peter's life, she never would have come
into contact with Norman at all.
>>
>> On the other hand, Spiderman's continuity is fucked up all over and
>> Brand New Day often does seem to be off in its own world...for
>> instance, we know Sins Past is still in continuity since One More Day
>> because it was referenced in Thunderbolts no long ago...but then a
>
>Was it? I remember Norman having them bring in hookers to dress as Gwen
>so he could kill them for fun, but that could harken back to the
>original. What Sins Past specific ref was in TBolts?
When Norman was whacked out in TBolt Mountain and changing into his
goblin gear, we was going on and on about his responsibilities and one
of his many ramblings was something to the effect of "make the girl
pregnant...and then kill her"...it didn't mention Gwen by name but it
was obviously a reference to Sins Past.
Lilith
But hasn't Matt been the attorney for the FF on several occasions? Or
at least the attorney for someone whom the FF were backing? They may
not have hung with DD that much, mostly, IMO, because DD is more a
street level hero while the FF are more epic. But maybe as the FF's
most prominent lawyer he was invited as an associate.
--
Lilith
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 13:18:20 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> How do you figure?
> >
> >Remember THE STARLOST? We were all excited that Harlan Ellison was
> >creating a TV show. But the producers mucked it up so much, that HE had
> >his name taken off of it. And so it was credited "Created by Cordwainer
> >Bird" and we knew we were getting a hack job and watched out of
> >curiousity. This made it palatable, like watching an MST3K version of
> >something. But JMS doesn't have the moral fiber HE does, and put Sins
> >Past out with his name on it. HE gave the audience fair warning of what
> >was about to be inflicted on them.
>
> Except NO ONE was excited about One More Day...we all knew it was
> going to be crap from day one...the only question was exactly how
> crappy it was going to be...and, whether or not it had JMS' name on
> it, it still would have been every bit as crappy.
We were talking about Sins Past, not OMD, or at least I was. :)
>
> Let me ask you this? If, say, JMS had quit writing Spiderman over
> Quesada changing his plans for Sins Past but the story still came out
> more or less as is by some other writer, would you blame THAT writer
> or would you finally be willing to place the blame where it belongs?
>
> Because, even if he hadn't come up with Norman as the father...even if
> he hadn't been the one who spearheaded One More Day and all the
> bullshit thereafter...he would still be the guy in the best position
> to stop it...and, if he cared even a tiny bit as much about Spiderman
> as he claims, he would have...Quesada killed Spiderman...and,
> apparently, Gwen's memory.
I'm not disagreeing there's blame to share.
>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > It's crap either way and Quesada was going to
> >> >> make all the bullshit happen regardless...so get over it...in fact, as
> >> >> JMS originally intended One More Day, it was going to wipe out Sins
> >> >> Past too so Gwen would have no longer been a "slut"...Quesada chose to
> >> >> keep it in continuity.
> >> >
> >> >Except, back to the point, in FF, it may NOT be in continuity; certainly
> >> >Peter seems to remember it the old way.
> >>
> >> Not necessarily...Gwen was killed by his archnemesis during one of
> >> their fights...regardless of the reasons behind it, it's entirely
> >> possible that Peter could believe she would have been better off never
> >> having met him.
> >
> >Well, as I read it, the Goblin captured her to kill her, and Spidey
> >tried to save her and failed. She wasn't killed as a byproduct of one
> >of their fights any more.
>
> Well, I think interpretations vary (from story to story...and reader
> to reader) but, regardless, this is Spiderman we're talking about...if
> Gwen so much as got a hangnail he would have found a way to blame
fair point
> himself for it...don't you know that everything bad that happens in
> the world is Spidey's fault...never mind anything bad that happens to
> someone close to him...and there's also the very real possibilty that,
> had Gwen never been a part of Peter's life, she never would have come
> into contact with Norman at all.
Nah. She knew Harry before she met Peter.
>
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Spiderman's continuity is fucked up all over and
> >> Brand New Day often does seem to be off in its own world...for
> >> instance, we know Sins Past is still in continuity since One More Day
> >> because it was referenced in Thunderbolts no long ago...but then a
> >
> >Was it? I remember Norman having them bring in hookers to dress as Gwen
> >so he could kill them for fun, but that could harken back to the
> >original. What Sins Past specific ref was in TBolts?
>
> When Norman was whacked out in TBolt Mountain and changing into his
> goblin gear, we was going on and on about his responsibilities and one
> of his many ramblings was something to the effect of "make the girl
> pregnant...and then kill her"...it didn't mention Gwen by name but it
> was obviously a reference to Sins Past.
Ah, thanks.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Then I would think he would attend as Matt Murdock instead of DD
(since he's still denying that his IS DD).
grinningdemon
wrote:
>In article <3psm75p1tj2odg87l...@4ax.com>,
> grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 13:18:20 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> How do you figure?
>> >
>> >Remember THE STARLOST? We were all excited that Harlan Ellison was
>> >creating a TV show. But the producers mucked it up so much, that HE had
>> >his name taken off of it. And so it was credited "Created by Cordwainer
>> >Bird" and we knew we were getting a hack job and watched out of
>> >curiousity. This made it palatable, like watching an MST3K version of
>> >something. But JMS doesn't have the moral fiber HE does, and put Sins
>> >Past out with his name on it. HE gave the audience fair warning of what
>> >was about to be inflicted on them.
>>
>> Except NO ONE was excited about One More Day...we all knew it was
>> going to be crap from day one...the only question was exactly how
>> crappy it was going to be...and, whether or not it had JMS' name on
>> it, it still would have been every bit as crappy.
>
>We were talking about Sins Past, not OMD, or at least I was. :)
You were talking about JMS threatening to take his name off a
story...that was OMD...not Sins Past...but I tend to lump the whole
later part of that run in together as, from Sins Past on, it became
increasingly obvious that JMS wasn't calling the shots anymore.
Doesn't mean she knew Norman or ever would have...or that she would
have continued to be friends with Harry...I'm just saying it's a
possibility.
Raymond Speer
DOOM
The storyline sucked.
By a method undisclosed to us, Doom survived certain death and retreated
into the past, acting for decades as his greatest enemy's most servile
assitant.
Come on with the jokes! Victor von Doom would find it impossible to
pretend to be Uriah Heep or Arnim Zola for the course of a lifetime.
Anyhow Doom is back and bad, and we are to assume that Doom's powers
have been augmented. Wuzza, wuzza, wuzza: this is a moment in comics
history that rivals the day when Lex Luthor left his gray prison
jumpsuit in favor of the green and purple leotard he later traded for
green and purple armor.
GRIMM
Once again, Grimm bugs out of a relationship with a female.
Minimal big surprise.
We all know the reality behind the lie: Richards and Grimm have been
homosexual lovers ever since they "roomed" together at Empire U. Deep
down, Richards wants to be water to Grimm's rock but they both have
problems with self loathing === after all, they were both fags when
their daily activities were considered vile crimes.
Sue Storm knows she is a "beard," just as Ava Gabor was Merv Griffen's
"girlfriend" for decades. I think she might have fondness for Richards
and Grimm through so many years of association.
What happens to the Fantastic Four when gay marriages are legit in New
York State? Will the masquerade between Richards and Storm be dissolved?
Will polls prove that the majority of Americans get sickened by the
thought of Mr. Fantastic and the Thing having sex?
Wouter Valentijn
One of the reasons why I called JQ satan in another group. :-)
--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net
Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's wrong with the world. Ever think about that?
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'
liam=mail
Billy Bissette
@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net:
>
> DOOM
>
> The storyline sucked.
>
> By a method undisclosed to us, Doom survived certain death and
> retreated into the past, acting for decades as his greatest enemy's
> most servile assitant.
>
> Come on with the jokes! Victor von Doom would find it impossible to
> pretend to be Uriah Heep or Arnim Zola for the course of a lifetime.
> Anyhow Doom is back and bad, and we are to assume that Doom's powers
> have been augmented. Wuzza, wuzza, wuzza: this is a moment in comics
> history that rivals the day when Lex Luthor left his gray prison
> jumpsuit in favor of the green and purple leotard he later traded for
> green and purple armor.
Doom's power augmented? That will be remembered for probably all
of zero stories. Writers hardly ever seemed to care to write him
at even his previous power level.
Doom is a guy who once came in second to Doc Strange at a big
sorcerers battle royale, and even took advantage of the situation
to copy and successfully use Strange's battle spells. (And yes,
the Triumph and Torment graphic novel was considered canon, at
least back then.) But how often do writers just flat out ignore
Doom's mystical side? (Then again, writers pretty much ignore his
established character and history at will as well.)
> What happens to the Fantastic Four when gay marriages are legit in New
> York State? Will the masquerade between Richards and Storm be
> dissolved?
> Will polls prove that the majority of Americans get sickened by the
> thought of Mr. Fantastic and the Thing having sex?
Though it was a joke, at least Mr. Fantastic's elasticity means
he should be able to safely have sex with the Thing.
A.Gerard
question seems to be why Peter would think of Gwen in the first place
post-SP. You guys have forgotten the fact that that Peter forgave
Gwen. When Peter first learned the news, he went into a brief freak-
out, but then got over it. He was actually more worried about how Gwen
must have felt and wished he knew so he could help her out.
YOU probably won't forgive Gwen, seeing her as a slut (like she isn't
the only Spider-girl to do that; anyone remember Betty Brant Leeds and
her extramarital affairs with Peter and the spoken-for Flash?), but
Peter is the type of person who, if he really loved a person that
much, would forgive that person anything. Thus, there is no problem
why he would pine for Gwen at this wedding.
Anim8rFSK
<53a4dbfd-dd77-445b...@g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
"A.Gerard" <ang...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hopefully this is the last word on the subject in this thread, but one
> question seems to be why Peter would think of Gwen in the first place
> post-SP.
Because, despite JMS's perversion of her character, she's still Spidey's
big love. Remember House of M? He didnt' rearrange reality to be with
MJ.
grinningdemon
Yeah, that was yet another problem I had with Sins Past...Peter's
reaction to the whole thing...I don't care how good a guy he is...if a
guy finds out the love of his life had sex with his worst enemy (never
even having had sex with him, no less) and went off to secretly give
birth to his kids, then HE"S GONNA BE PISSED AT HER...I don't care if
she IS dead...that is pretty much the ultimate betrayal...he may get
over it eventually but he's not going to just immediately shrug it off
and not think any less of her for it...furthermore, upon finding out
that his wife has known about it all along and never said a word, he
should have been pissed at HER...at least initially...and HOW does he
find something like that out and NOT seek out Norman Osborn and
confront him on the subject? It's a totally unbelievable reaction.
grinningdemon
wrote:
>In article
><53a4dbfd-dd77-445b...@g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
> "A.Gerard" <ang...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully this is the last word on the subject in this thread, but one
>> question seems to be why Peter would think of Gwen in the first place
>> post-SP.
>
>Because, despite JMS's perversion of her character, she's still Spidey's
>big love. Remember House of M? He didnt' rearrange reality to be with
>MJ.
House of M isn't exactly a true example of the characters' deepest
desires...if nothing else, I'm reasonably certain the FF didn't wish
to be DEAD.
A.Gerard
> Yeah, that was yet another problem I had with Sins Past...Peter's
> reaction to the whole thing...I don't care how good a guy he is...if a
> guy finds out the love of his life had sex with his worst enemy (never
> even having had sex with him, no less) and went off to secretly give
> birth to his kids, then HE"S GONNA BE PISSED AT HER...I don't care if
> she IS dead...that is pretty much the ultimate betrayal...he may get
> over it eventually but he's not going to just immediately shrug it off
> and not think any less of her for it...furthermore, upon finding out
> that his wife has known about it all along and never said a word, he
> should have been pissed at HER...at least initially...and HOW does he
> find something like that out and NOT seek out Norman Osborn and
> confront him on the subject? It's a totally unbelievable reaction.
If Peter learned it back in the college years...YES. But you have to
remember Peter's previous reactions to shocking truths, and the
outcomes...
-Going after Osborn shortly after Gwen's death.
-Finding out Harry made those robots of his parents, which led to a
period of madness: 'Parker is dead...I am the Spider."
-Discovering tests that point out that he is actually a clone. Peter
lashes out, knocks his pregnant MJ against a wall, and joins forces
with the Jackal.
-On Osborn's public return to society, he wrecks Peter and MJ's
apartment. Peter goes after Osborn and beats the teeth out of him
before surviellance cameras, resulting in him becoming public enemy no.
1 for a while (interesting that J.M. DeMatties had a hand in most of
these stories).
With all that in consideration, Peter's reaction to Gwen must be a
step up in character development and strength. Also, considering those
events, it's probable why MJ kept her mouth shut.
One thing that has to be remembered: This is Peter Parker learning
about Gwen, NOT '(comic book reader) with spider powers learning the
truth about his girlfriend'. You might not forgive Gwen. I myself
might be unforgiving. But if I or you actually was Peter and lived his
life, then it's 'I forgive you, Gwen.'
Scott Eiler
> Once again, Grimm bugs out of a relationship with a female.
>
> Minimal big surprise.
>
> We all know the reality behind the lie: Richards and Grimm have been
> homosexual lovers ever since they "roomed" together at Empire U.
And the Human Torch got flame powers because he's a flamer. He hasn't
make a hetero relationship work either. The Invisible Girl got her
powers because she knew just how irrelevant she was to her closest
friends' sexual practices...
I've actually heard this theory before. Raymond, are you secretly the
"Regular Guy" from Chicago radio?
Scott Eiler
> At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
> they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
> bemoaning the women they lost.
"I guess" looked like Ben Urich to me.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Add to which, why would you possibly care about the kids? Inhuman demon
spawn of the Goblin and the slut that betrayed you? You supposed to be
HAPPY one of them looks like her mother, and takes after her, and not in
a good way?
I still don't understand that big reveal when we finally saw the son's
face. Were we supposed to recognize him as Norman, or think he was
Peter, or just be awestruck at the terrible artwork, or what? 'cause if
we were supposed to recognize him, one way or the other, it sort of
changes the story.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Would you BLAME Reed at this point? :)
A.Gerard
> Add to which, why would you possibly care about the kids? Inhuman demon
> spawn of the Goblin and the slut that betrayed you? You supposed to be
> HAPPY one of them looks like her mother, and takes after her, and not in
> a good way?
>
spawn of the Goblin.
2. Norman's children, yes, but they are also Gwen's children. The only
legacy that Gwen left to this world. For someone who loved her that
much, Peter would do anything to care for them. He would also do
everything in his power to protect them from their father's legacy.
What happened to Pre-BND Harry can never happen again.
3. So, what's wrong with Peter caring about children not his own? He
wasn't raised by his biological parents either. He would become Ben
Parker.
Anim8rFSK
<578f6eff-814a-4be6...@m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
Scott Eiler <sei...@eilertech.com> wrote:
Oh. Who was 'girl he lost' that I assumed was Janet Van Dyne?
YKW (ad hoc)
news:ANIM8Rfsk-A0AE7...@news.dc1.easynews.com:
>In article <8i6r759qkonoqns7i...@4ax.com>,
> grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 07:12:20 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> ><53a4dbfd-dd77-445b...@g6g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>,
>> > "A.Gerard" <ang...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hopefully this is the last word on the subject in this thread, but
>> >> one question seems to be why Peter would think of Gwen in the
>> >> first place post-SP.
>> >
>> >Because, despite JMS's perversion of her character, she's still
>> >Spidey's big love. Remember House of M? He didnt' rearrange
>> >reality to be with MJ.
>>
>> House of M isn't exactly a true example of the characters' deepest
>> desires...if nothing else, I'm reasonably certain the FF didn't wish
>> to be DEAD.
>
> Would you BLAME Reed at this point? :)
>
Actually, the odd part about that is that the one FFer who conceivably
=might= have wished to be dead actually wound up with an even worse fate
than what had been dealt in the mainline 616 (and arguably worse than the
other three).
Truth to tell, it looks like the only one who got his wish in the FF
corner of things was Victor...
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"It's not that I want to punish your success. [...]I think
when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."
-- The One, 14 Oct 08
Scott Eiler
> Scott Eiler <sei...@eilertech.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 5, 2:50 pm, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
> > > they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
> > > bemoaning the women they lost.
>
> > "I guess" looked like Ben Urich to me.
>
> Oh. Who was 'girl he lost' that I assumed was Janet Van Dyne?
I assume his wife died. Yes, he had one way back when. I don't
follow all of Ben Urich's grim gritty adventures, though. When was
the last time anyone's seen Mrs. Urich in a comic book?
grinningdemon
<sei...@eilertech.com> wrote:
>On Aug 8, 6:59 pm, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
>> In article
>> <578f6eff-814a-4be6-b70d-f585b1c9c...@m20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>> Scott Eiler <sei...@eilertech.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Aug 5, 2:50 pm, Anim8rFSK <ANIM8R...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > At the end, when the women are trying to convince Ben to marry anyway,
>> > > they have 4 wedding guests, Spidey, Namor, DD, and (I guess) Hank Pym,
>> > > bemoaning the women they lost.
>>
>> > "I guess" looked like Ben Urich to me.
>>
>> Oh. Who was 'girl he lost' that I assumed was Janet Van Dyne?
>
>I assume his wife died. Yes, he had one way back when. I don't
>follow all of Ben Urich's grim gritty adventures, though. When was
>the last time anyone's seen Mrs. Urich in a comic book?
I do seem to recall Ben's wife died at some point...but I'm reasonably
certain the guy in question was actually Bruce Banner...not that it
makes any sense for the Hulk to be invited but, as someone else
mentioned, it's kind of a throwback to the old days when the whole
Marvel Universe showed up to these things.
grinningdemon
I know the character quite well and I still don't buy it...hell, even
your examples above show that his first reaction to life-altering bad
news is to lash out (even at his pregnant wife)...I'm not saying he
wouldn't have gotten over it but he would have been pissed off...it's
only natural given the situation...and he certainly would have sought
out Norman and confronted him on it...that shitty story is still in
continuity and they have NEVER even brought it up to each other.
grinningdemon
wrote:
While I think he should have been pissed off, I have no trouble
believing he would try to help the kids (even under these
circumstances)...and, yes, the fact that the girl looks like her mom
would understandably have a huge impact on Peter (although probably
not so much HAPPY)...he may be angry and hurt but all those feelings
and that history wouldn't just instantly go away...and, this is
Spiderman, he would have tried to help them no matter what.
>
>I still don't understand that big reveal when we finally saw the son's
>face. Were we supposed to recognize him as Norman, or think he was
>Peter, or just be awestruck at the terrible artwork, or what? 'cause if
>we were supposed to recognize him, one way or the other, it sort of
>changes the story.
I'm with you on this one...either the artist dropped the ball or they
made a big deal out of nothing.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
If that's Banner, who is the girl he's picturing? Betty? She died but
got better, right?
grinningdemon
True...the premise that everyone got their fondest wish in House of M
kind of falls apart when you start looking at things like this...or
Xavier being dead...or Cap being a lonely old man...or all the humans
treated as second class citizens.
And, back to Spidey, I find it hard to believe he would have wished to
have Norman Osborn remain such a huge part of his life.
grinningdemon
wrote:
She did come back during Bruce Jones' Hulk run but that whole run
seems to be have been tossed out of continuity as soon as it
ended...so, as far as I know, she's dead again...which is fine by me
because, while I thought the run started off pretty well, it quickly
turned to crap...if they ever do bring back Betty to stay, I would
hope they would come up with a better story.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
What does it tell us about this story that we aren't sure if a character
is Hank Pym or Ben Urich or Bruce Banner thinking about Janet Van Dyne
or Mrs. Urich or Betty Ross (the latter of which may or may not be dead)?
Billy Bissette
news:vfuu7595qu7u2ce60...@4ax.com:
[cut lots of talk about Gwen's kids in Spider-Man's Sins Past storyline]
>>I still don't understand that big reveal when we finally saw the son's
>>face. Were we supposed to recognize him as Norman, or think he was
>>Peter, or just be awestruck at the terrible artwork, or what? 'cause
>>if we were supposed to recognize him, one way or the other, it sort
>>of changes the story.
>
> I'm with you on this one...either the artist dropped the ball or they
> made a big deal out of nothing.
I remember feeling at the time, before I'd even know about JMS's
original plans or Quesada's ordered change, that the reveal would
have worked much better if Peter was the father.
The daughter looking so identical to Gwen combined with the
hidden identities just seems to go hand in hand with the idea that
the father would be immediately evident upon seeing the son's face.
With Peter as the father, the reveal would likely have been a darn
near mirror image of Pete. The whole set-up just seemed so
intentional. It doesn't work as well with Norman as the father as
the son at best would only look like a young Norman. The
recognition wouldn't be as easy or have the same impact. Making
Norman the father just didn't seem to fit the structures of the
story.
Of course I'd later find out that JMS had planned for Peter to
be the father, and that Quesada had mandated the parentage change.
I don't know if the artist failed to make the son reconizable as
a young Norman, or if the mandated change forced a scramble to
change the reveal, or if JMS just didn't care who the son looked
like at that point anymore.
Tim Turnip
wrote:
I don't know what it tells you about the story, but it tells me that
you missed Hank Pym's appearance in costume several pages earlier (and
are perhaps unaware that Hank has always been blond).
Nor would he be Ben Urich, as that would make absolutely no sense in
the given context -- Urich is not a peer of Ben's whose lost love
would be used as a point of reference. The nebbish with the glasses
is pretty clearly Bruce Banner, and his lost love is Betty Ross, whose
death has been recently confirmed in the Hulk titles (with her
resurrection and super-powered upgrade being wisely retconned away).
Anim8rFSK
Billy Bissette <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote:
> grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote in
> news:vfuu7595qu7u2ce60...@4ax.com:
> > On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 13:35:39 -0700, Anim8rFSK <ANIM...@cox.net>
> > wrote:
> >
>
> [cut lots of talk about Gwen's kids in Spider-Man's Sins Past storyline]
> >>I still don't understand that big reveal when we finally saw the son's
> >>face. Were we supposed to recognize him as Norman, or think he was
> >>Peter, or just be awestruck at the terrible artwork, or what? 'cause
> >>if we were supposed to recognize him, one way or the other, it sort
> >>of changes the story.
> >
> > I'm with you on this one...either the artist dropped the ball or they
> > made a big deal out of nothing.
Look! It's ... someone we've never seen before!
>
> I remember feeling at the time, before I'd even know about JMS's
> original plans or Quesada's ordered change, that the reveal would
> have worked much better if Peter was the father.
>
> The daughter looking so identical to Gwen combined with the
> hidden identities just seems to go hand in hand with the idea that
> the father would be immediately evident upon seeing the son's face.
> With Peter as the father, the reveal would likely have been a darn
> near mirror image of Pete. The whole set-up just seemed so
Plus it would explain why the son sometimes set off Peter's spider-sense
and sometimes didn't.
> intentional. It doesn't work as well with Norman as the father as
> the son at best would only look like a young Norman. The
> recognition wouldn't be as easy or have the same impact. Making
> Norman the father just didn't seem to fit the structures of the
> story.
>
> Of course I'd later find out that JMS had planned for Peter to
> be the father, and that Quesada had mandated the parentage change.
>
> I don't know if the artist failed to make the son reconizable as
> a young Norman, or if the mandated change forced a scramble to
> change the reveal, or if JMS just didn't care who the son looked
> like at that point anymore.
I think we can pretty much assume the latter in any event.
I continue to wonder if there was a scramble. I mean, without Norman,
Sins Past doesn't even have a storyline. It's hard to imagine there was
much in place before the change.
Billy Bissette
news:ANIM8Rfsk-2EFE1...@news.dc1.easynews.com:
Norman could still get the kids even if Pete were the father.
I could see that as being the idea, as well. We already knew how
Norman screwed up his own kid, and Harry's own resulting stint as
a supervillain. And now we would find that Norman got his hooks
into Pete's kids? I could see a writer coming up with that idea,
and thinking it would have a pretty good impact to readers.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Well, it tells me that the art is crap and the writing isn't much
better...but I've felt that way about most of this run.
grinningdemon
To be fair, Bruce being at the wedding makes just about as much sense
as Ben Urich, which is probably why many people couldn't figure that
one out...and the Hulk titles have been kind of a mess lately so I'd
say Betty's status is pretty easy to overlook.
grinningdemon
wrote:
It may not have been a huge scramble to change things...as I've said,
I get the general impression that JMS really just lost interest in
writing Spiderman from Sins Past on...possibly from being put off at
being forced to change his story...it's possible he just didn't care
enough to change it.
Raymond Speer
In justice to JMS, who would not have been discouraged by the orders
spewing from Joe Quesada? Like good work for hire slave, JMS has Gwen
impregnated by the Green Goblin, and his next assignment is to eliminate
MJ.
I mean, can anybody look forwards when you trudge such a deplorable
road.
FSogol
> ...and the Hulk titles have been kind of a mess lately so I'd
> say Betty's status is pretty easy to overlook.
It is not a mess, it is pretty simple: Betty is dead again, until some
writer/editor brings her back via some hackneyed contrivance only to
kill her off again. Simple!
--
FSogol
grinningdemon
wrote:
Yes, so simple that they already brought her back once and then tried
to pretend that never happened without bothering to let the readers
know...I just can't fathom how that could leave anyone confused at
all.
That said, at the rate Hulk's been popping out kids lately, it's only
a matter of time before Betty gets in on the action...after all, being
dead doesn't seem to matter in this department.
iarwain
One of the annoying parts of this story was the explanation that
Doom's hate kept him alive after he was chewed up into pieces by the
sharkadon thing or whatever it was. But I think you pretty much have
to go with the idea that Doom's skill with black magic was what really
saved him, maybe there was some sort of spell he knew that allowed his
hate to keep him alive. I don't much care for such magic in comics,
but the other explanation as given was just lame.
Hand-of-Omega
And yet, when people DO pay attention to such things, folks are just
as angry. Waid did an entire storyline focusing on Doom's magic, and
all I heard from here was how much everyone hated it!
Dex
Billy Bissette
9008-7e8...@k6g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
I had to google to see what story you were talking about. From
some of the links I saw, it seemed some rejected it because they
saw Waid's Doom as rejecting science in favor of magic. If so,
that approach has the same problem as writers who ignore his magic
in favor of science.
The Wikipedia description of Waid's interpretation of Doom's
character sounds like that could also annoy people.
iarwain
I don't know, if you think of the classic Doom character the black
magic is rarely emphasized (sometimes it has been, but usually has
not). The focus has usually been on his intelligence, armor/weapons,
and his incredible arrogance. And sometimes his sense of honor - but
the magic hasn't come up that often. Even in the story Hand-of-Omega
mentioned, Doom admitted he had been relying mostly on science, so he
then decided to try relying mostly on magic.
Billy Bissette
news:8fcaf3d8-69c3-4643...@o6g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
That's the thing, if you are going to acknowledge both, then he
shouldn't be dropping one for the other. He should probably be
mixing them together.
I mentioned the old Triumph & Torment graphic novel earlier.
There, when he is one of the participants in the sorcerer challenge,
he doesn't rely solely on magic. Only when another sorcerer objects
to his technology does he say that he will not use his armor's
forcefield and offensive capabilities. Even then, he does use his
tech to record the spells that the others cast so that he can
copy the castings himself. And when he faces Mephisto, he uses a
mixture of magic and technology as well.
iarwain
That makes sense, but the practical effect this has is changing the
character as we basically know him. Because he's mostly been
presented as using science. If he starts casting spells a lot in his
attacks he comes off differently. This may be a good or a bad thing.
But I tend to think that emphasizing the black magic in the first
place was a mistake because Doom is maybe the best villain in all of
comics, and he got to that place mostly by being a super smart
megalomaniac that uses science, not by being a sorcerer.
Kenneth M. Lin
"Billy Bissette" <bai...@coastalnet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9C60915299E8...@216.168.3.70...
> ray...@webtv.net (Raymond Speer) wrote in news:15681-4A7C24D2-2358
> @storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net:
>
>>
>> DOOM
>>
>> The storyline sucked.
>>
>> By a method undisclosed to us, Doom survived certain death and
>> retreated into the past, acting for decades as his greatest enemy's
>> most servile assitant.
>>
>> Come on with the jokes! Victor von Doom would find it impossible to
>> pretend to be Uriah Heep or Arnim Zola for the course of a lifetime.
>> Anyhow Doom is back and bad, and we are to assume that Doom's powers
>> have been augmented. Wuzza, wuzza, wuzza: this is a moment in comics
>> history that rivals the day when Lex Luthor left his gray prison
>> jumpsuit in favor of the green and purple leotard he later traded for
>> green and purple armor.
>
> Doom's power augmented? That will be remembered for probably all
> of zero stories. Writers hardly ever seemed to care to write him
> at even his previous power level.
>
> Doom is a guy who once came in second to Doc Strange at a big
> sorcerers battle royale, and even took advantage of the situation
> to copy and successfully use Strange's battle spells. (And yes,
> the Triumph and Torment graphic novel was considered canon, at
> least back then.) But how often do writers just flat out ignore
> Doom's mystical side? (Then again, writers pretty much ignore his
> established character and history at will as well.)
>
>> What happens to the Fantastic Four when gay marriages are legit in New
>> York State? Will the masquerade between Richards and Storm be
>> dissolved?
>> Will polls prove that the majority of Americans get sickened by the
>> thought of Mr. Fantastic and the Thing having sex?
>
> Though it was a joke, at least Mr. Fantastic's elasticity means
> he should be able to safely have sex with the Thing.
I always assume that Thing and Torch were an item. They fight all the time
like a married couple.
Kenneth M. Lin
"Hand-of-Omega" <hando...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8658bd3-8092-43d4...@k6g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...