Thor question
Ohioguy
mortal, and trying to become immortal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
immortal? Even if that is ignored, doesn't he have the ability to
transfer his consciousness to another individual, thus cheating death?
I thought that was the definition of immortal - being able to
continuously cheat death. Just going by how many times Dr. Doom has
done this in the comics already, I think he is probably considered de
facto immortal.
Regarding William - the guy who is in love with one of the immortals
- it looks like they just killed him off. Why?
FSogol
> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
> immortal? Even if that is ignored, doesn't he have the ability to
> transfer his consciousness to another individual, thus cheating death? I
> thought that was the definition of immortal - being able to continuously
> cheat death. Just going by how many times Dr. Doom has done this in the
> comics already, I think he is probably considered de facto immortal.
Piss poor editor-in-chief = no consistency
> Regarding William - the guy who is in love with one of the immortals -
> it looks like they just killed him off. Why?
>
For the same reason Marvel kills anyone off - So they can bring him back
to life and then kill him again.
--
FSogol
RVG
> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
> immortal?
Wasn't Kang the Conqueror a future version of Dr Doom too ?
--
Jazz up your life!
Jazzez-vous la vie!
http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://rvgjazznstuff.jamendo.net/
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BigRiggBlues
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
> immortal?
was in reference to his survival of an attack by his former master, the
Marquis of Death. Assuming that powerful, potentially reality-changing
energies were at work in the attack, this can easily be written off as
an unnatural survival.
Anim8rFSK
wrote:
> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
> immortal? Even if that is ignored, doesn't he have the ability to
> transfer his consciousness to another individual, thus cheating death?
> I thought that was the definition of immortal - being able to
> continuously cheat death. Just going by how many times Dr. Doom has
> done this in the comics already, I think he is probably considered de
> facto immortal.
Sigh, yes, Thor doesn't seem to be in continuity with FF; in fact, I'd
say FF isn't in continuity with anything else, because there's no way
the new super duper Doom would put up with Norman Osborn for a second.
--
Stargate Universe SGU: It puts the "U" in "SUCKS"!
It's the show 'Defiling Gravity' would be if DG had more regulars,
fewer abortions, worse writers, and no budget for lighting.
Remember, you can't spell "disgust" without SGU!
Wouter Valentijn
> Ohioguy a �crit :
>> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
>> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
>> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an
>> entire time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and
>> purposes immortal?
>
> Wasn't Kang the Conqueror a future version of Dr Doom too ?
Nope.
But a future version of Kang was Immortus.
I do remember an early Avenger story (the second showing of Kang I think) in
which he compared himself to Doom as a robot builder. Kang created a robot
version of Spiderman to defeat the Avengers. Something the real Spiderman
wasn't really all that fond of.
--
Wouter Valentijn www.j3v.net
http://www.nksf.scifics.com/startrek.html
Buffy: This is the Initiative Xander. Military guys and scientists do not
make out with each other.
Xander: Well maybe that's what's wrong with the world. Ever think about
that?
'Buffy the Vampire Slayer 4x14: Goodbye Iowa'
liam=mail
grinningdemon
wrote:
>In article <t6FGm.269$SY4...@newsfe22.iad>, Ohioguy <no...@none.net>
>wrote:
>
>> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
>> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
>> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
>> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
>> immortal? Even if that is ignored, doesn't he have the ability to
>> transfer his consciousness to another individual, thus cheating death?
>> I thought that was the definition of immortal - being able to
>> continuously cheat death. Just going by how many times Dr. Doom has
>> done this in the comics already, I think he is probably considered de
>> facto immortal.
>
>Sigh, yes, Thor doesn't seem to be in continuity with FF; in fact, I'd
>say FF isn't in continuity with anything else, because there's no way
>the new super duper Doom would put up with Norman Osborn for a second.
I would say it's more like Millar's FF isn't in continuity (for the
most part)...everyone seems to have latched on to Valeria Richards as
a super genius, but, as soon as I saw that story with Doom getting
"upgraded," I fully expected it would be ignored or quickly done away
with by the next writers...and that works for me...genius Val is the
only part of that run worth holding on to.
BigRiggBlues
I wouldn't say that it's been ignored. Neither would I say that Doom
wouldn't put up with Osborn.
What you have to remember is that Doom is a very egotistical man. No,
before Secret Invasion, Doom wouldn't have given Osborn the time of day.
However, we know that Doom is already banking on Osborn's eventual
failure and plans to reap the benefits of it. That alone is his sole
purpose for involvement in the Cabal.
Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
be the more knowledgeable of the two.
William George Ferguson
wrote:
>Ohioguy a �crit :
>> In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
>> mortal, and trying to become immortal.
>>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
>> essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
>> time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
>> immortal?
The Doom of the present day in Marvel 616 is mortal. He has had a
mind-switch thing going, but that doesn't seem to be dependable. He has
apparently been killed various times, but the stock way around that is 'it
was a Doombot'.
>Wasn't Kang the Conqueror a future version of Dr Doom too ?
Originally, they established that Doom/Kang/Rama-Tut/Immortus were all the
same person at different stages of his life, but they backed off on that a
long time ago. Now they leave themselves wiggle room so an individual
story can go any way it wants on the issue.
--
"Oh Buffy, you really do need to have
every square inch of your ass kicked."
- Willow Rosenberg
grinningdemon
But Millar elevated him to such a level that he would have absolutely
no reason to get involved with Osborn...whatever he wanted from him,
he could simply take...no one would be able to stop him.
>Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
>non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
>rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
>the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
>coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
>better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
>be the more knowledgeable of the two.
Riiiight...the single most consistent character trait for Doom and you
honestly think it will ever truly be resolved?
Michael Wood
"Ohioguy" <no...@none.net> wrote in message
news:t6FGm.269$SY4...@newsfe22.iad...
Actually, didn't Doom resurrect himself by sheer force of will after being
eaten by a plesiosaur and then surviving 25 million years to defeat the
Marquis of Death?
Seems like a working definition to me. It also sets him up as the ultimate
Vandal Savage character, manipulating history since the evolution of humans.
Immortal? He predates the gods!
Michael Wood
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Right. Plus, he was playing apprentice while he was Doom in the cabal.
Which makes the cabal Doom a Doombot anyway.
>
> >Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
> >non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
> >rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
> >the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
> >coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
> >better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
> >be the more knowledgeable of the two.
>
> Riiiight...the single most consistent character trait for Doom and you
> honestly think it will ever truly be resolved?
--
Anim8rFSK
"Michael Wood" <no-...@home.comj> wrote:
>
> "Ohioguy" <no...@none.net> wrote in message
> news:t6FGm.269$SY4...@newsfe22.iad...
> > In the latest issue of Thor, they have Dr. Doom saying that he is
> > mortal, and trying to become immortal.
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a recent issue of Fantastic Four
> > essentially have Doom saying that he somehow survived through an entire
> > time epoch? Wouldn't that mean he is for all intents and purposes
> > immortal? Even if that is ignored, doesn't he have the ability to
> > transfer his consciousness to another individual, thus cheating death? I
> > thought that was the definition of immortal - being able to continuously
> > cheat death. Just going by how many times Dr. Doom has done this in the
> > comics already, I think he is probably considered de facto immortal.
> >
> > Regarding William - the guy who is in love with one of the immortals -
> > it looks like they just killed him off. Why?
> >
> >
>
> Actually, didn't Doom resurrect himself by sheer force of will after being
> eaten by a plesiosaur and then surviving 25 million years to defeat the
> Marquis of Death?
If he got eaten by a plesiosaur, he better have survived at least 65
million years. :)
grinningdemon
wrote:
I think it would be hard to say that the Doom who was apprentice to
Morgan Le Fey and helped fight her off in Dark Avengers was a Doombot.
Anim8rFSK
grinningdemon <grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
Which puts us back to FF and Thor not being in the same continuity, or
multiple Dooms that aren't Doombots coexisting for his entire lifetime.
Or both.
grinningdemon
wrote:
Which is precisely why I suggested Millar's FF is being ignored.
BigRiggBlues
Ok, I have to question this line of thinking. Now, perhaps my memory
fails me on this, but I think we have conflicting plot points. And
correct me if I'm wrong on this.
1) In the Cabal/Dark Avengers story, Doctor Doom is released by Osborn.
Osborn states that his detainment was never legal and he is free to go.
2) In the FF story, Doom breaks out of his prison so that he can prepare
to attack the Marquis of Death.
So either one of these are wrong or they are combined into another option:
3) Doom breaks out of prison to prepare his attack. In between this and
the next time we see him in FF, Osborn approaches him with the Cabal
business and "releases" him. He battles the Marquis of Death, who
destroys most of Latveria. He then returns to Latveria as a more
powerful Doom. Upon his return, he battles Moran Le Fey.
I realize that the first argument is going to be that this more powerful
Doom should have been able to easily destroy Le Fey. However, I submit
this possibility: Marvel has often drawn lines between the laws of
science/physics and the laws of magic in the 616. If we assume that the
Marquis of Death's abilities were based on science/physics and that it
was this type of ability that Doom was super-imbued with, then they
might not be as effective on Le Fey as her abilities are purely magic in
nature. Hence, while he may have bested his science/physics master in
the Marquis, he was still a subordinate to Morgan Le Fey.
Secondly, if the first meeting of the Cabal occurs before his battle
with the Marquis, it would explain his willingness to put up with
Osborn, as he had ulterior plans for the fallout of Osborn's rule.
>>>> Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
>>>> non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
>>>> rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
>>>> the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
>>>> coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
>>>> better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
>>>> be the more knowledgeable of the two.
>>> Riiiight...the single most consistent character trait for Doom and you
>>> honestly think it will ever truly be resolved?
Settle, fanboy. Settle. I'm simply stating a current state of affairs.
Doom's hatred of Reed will no doubt resurface in the future, but for the
time being Doom doesn't care.
grinningdemon
<bigriggblu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think it would be hard to say that the Doom who was apprentice to
>> Morgan Le Fey and helped fight her off in Dark Avengers was a Doombot.
>
>Ok, I have to question this line of thinking. Now, perhaps my memory
>fails me on this, but I think we have conflicting plot points. And
>correct me if I'm wrong on this.
>
>1) In the Cabal/Dark Avengers story, Doctor Doom is released by Osborn.
>Osborn states that his detainment was never legal and he is free to go.
>
>2) In the FF story, Doom breaks out of his prison so that he can prepare
>to attack the Marquis of Death.
Actually, these were the resolutions of two different times that Doom
was jailed...when Osborn released him, it was from when Iron Man and
the Mighty Avengers had captured him...when he breaks out in the FF
story, it is after he has been jailed for killing the 500 year old Sue
Storm from the future...so they are conflicting plot points, just not
in the way you think.
>So either one of these are wrong or they are combined into another option:
>
>3) Doom breaks out of prison to prepare his attack. In between this and
>the next time we see him in FF, Osborn approaches him with the Cabal
>business and "releases" him. He battles the Marquis of Death, who
>destroys most of Latveria. He then returns to Latveria as a more
>powerful Doom. Upon his return, he battles Moran Le Fey.
>
>I realize that the first argument is going to be that this more powerful
>Doom should have been able to easily destroy Le Fey. However, I submit
>this possibility: Marvel has often drawn lines between the laws of
>science/physics and the laws of magic in the 616. If we assume that the
>Marquis of Death's abilities were based on science/physics and that it
>was this type of ability that Doom was super-imbued with, then they
>might not be as effective on Le Fey as her abilities are purely magic in
>nature. Hence, while he may have bested his science/physics master in
>the Marquis, he was still a subordinate to Morgan Le Fey.
>
>Secondly, if the first meeting of the Cabal occurs before his battle
>with the Marquis, it would explain his willingness to put up with
>Osborn, as he had ulterior plans for the fallout of Osborn's rule.
I still tend to think that Doom's new powers would have come up at
some point during the Morgan Le Fey storyline...there is just no
believable way that it would be totally ignored...or that Doom
wouldn't have broken ranks with Osborn immediately following this...I
just don't see any way to reconcile the two.
>>>>> Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
>>>>> non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
>>>>> rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
>>>>> the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
>>>>> coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
>>>>> better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
>>>>> be the more knowledgeable of the two.
>>>> Riiiight...the single most consistent character trait for Doom and you
>>>> honestly think it will ever truly be resolved?
>
>Settle, fanboy. Settle.
You know, it really annoys me when use that term in a condescending
fashion...particularly when they themselves are fanboys.
I'm simply stating a current state of affairs.
>Doom's hatred of Reed will no doubt resurface in the future, but for the
>time being Doom doesn't care.
That is just the current state of affairs in the FF book (or at least
in Millar's run of FF)...we have seen no indication that any of that
has any impact on what is going on anywhere else in the Marvel
Universe...I suppose the true test will be the upcoming Doomwar mini
which supposedly follows from what Doom has been up to in Black
Panther and is basically supposed to be Doom vs. the Marvel
Universe...if any story were going to incorporate his new powers (the
source of his supposed superiority), that would be it, I would think.
Furthermore, I think we can all agree that, even if his new powers are
canon, they can't possibly last...first and foremost, Doom will always
be the FF's archvillain and there is no change in the status quo that
makes him vastly superior to them can possibly stand for long.
BigRiggBlues
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:36:35 -0500, BigRiggBlues
> <bigriggblu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think it would be hard to say that the Doom who was apprentice to
>>> Morgan Le Fey and helped fight her off in Dark Avengers was a Doombot.
>> Ok, I have to question this line of thinking. Now, perhaps my memory
>> fails me on this, but I think we have conflicting plot points. And
>> correct me if I'm wrong on this.
>>
>> 1) In the Cabal/Dark Avengers story, Doctor Doom is released by Osborn.
>> Osborn states that his detainment was never legal and he is free to go.
>>
>> 2) In the FF story, Doom breaks out of his prison so that he can prepare
>> to attack the Marquis of Death.
>
> Actually, these were the resolutions of two different times that Doom
> was jailed...when Osborn released him, it was from when Iron Man and
> the Mighty Avengers had captured him...when he breaks out in the FF
> story, it is after he has been jailed for killing the 500 year old Sue
> Storm from the future...so they are conflicting plot points, just not
> in the way you think.
Right! I knew I was forgetting something. I'd forgotten that he was
jailed for future Sue's murder as well. So yeah, that completely changes
my interpretation of the course of events.
>> So either one of these are wrong or they are combined into another option:
>>
>> 3) Doom breaks out of prison to prepare his attack. In between this and
>> the next time we see him in FF, Osborn approaches him with the Cabal
>> business and "releases" him. He battles the Marquis of Death, who
>> destroys most of Latveria. He then returns to Latveria as a more
>> powerful Doom. Upon his return, he battles Moran Le Fey.
>>
>> I realize that the first argument is going to be that this more powerful
>> Doom should have been able to easily destroy Le Fey. However, I submit
>> this possibility: Marvel has often drawn lines between the laws of
>> science/physics and the laws of magic in the 616. If we assume that the
>> Marquis of Death's abilities were based on science/physics and that it
>> was this type of ability that Doom was super-imbued with, then they
>> might not be as effective on Le Fey as her abilities are purely magic in
>> nature. Hence, while he may have bested his science/physics master in
>> the Marquis, he was still a subordinate to Morgan Le Fey.
>>
>> Secondly, if the first meeting of the Cabal occurs before his battle
>> with the Marquis, it would explain his willingness to put up with
>> Osborn, as he had ulterior plans for the fallout of Osborn's rule.
>
> I still tend to think that Doom's new powers would have come up at
> some point during the Morgan Le Fey storyline...there is just no
> believable way that it would be totally ignored...or that Doom
> wouldn't have broken ranks with Osborn immediately following this...I
> just don't see any way to reconcile the two.
Yeah, the only way I could see it now, after being reminded of the old
Sue thing, is if the entirety of the Millar run occur between the Cabal
and Morgan Le Fey. But Doom's second jailing would be against his
agreement with Osborn, so it wouldn't make sense.
>>>>>> Doom's ego can also be used (and often is) to explain his virtual
>>>>>> non-mention/non-utilization of his status, post Millar's run. Doom
>>>>>> rarely sees the need to lower himself to the affairs of the majority of
>>>>>> the world outside of his own rule. However, on the flip side of that
>>>>>> coin, it seems that he also no longer cares to prove himself Richards'
>>>>>> better. After the events of Millar's final FF arc, Doom knows himself to
>>>>>> be the more knowledgeable of the two.
>>>>> Riiiight...the single most consistent character trait for Doom and you
>>>>> honestly think it will ever truly be resolved?
>> Settle, fanboy. Settle.
>
> You know, it really annoys me when use that term in a condescending
> fashion...particularly when they themselves are fanboys.
Who said I was being condescending? Did you assume I was being
condescending because you, yourself, were being condescending in your
previous statement?
>> I'm simply stating a current state of affairs.
>> Doom's hatred of Reed will no doubt resurface in the future, but for the
>> time being Doom doesn't care.
>
> That is just the current state of affairs in the FF book (or at least
> in Millar's run of FF)...we have seen no indication that any of that
> has any impact on what is going on anywhere else in the Marvel
> Universe...I suppose the true test will be the upcoming Doomwar mini
> which supposedly follows from what Doom has been up to in Black
> Panther and is basically supposed to be Doom vs. the Marvel
> Universe...if any story were going to incorporate his new powers (the
> source of his supposed superiority), that would be it, I would think.
>
> Furthermore, I think we can all agree that, even if his new powers are
> canon, they can't possibly last...first and foremost, Doom will always
> be the FF's archvillain and there is no change in the status quo that
> makes him vastly superior to them can possibly stand for long.
This is true. He's too good a villain to lose for too long. While I
personally wish they'd stick to Millar's story, as long as the greater
story is enhanced, I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over it.
Ohioguy
> million years.
Nah - we had plesiosaur for supper last night - it's overrated. (and
tastes sort of like frog legs) There are still a few around, if you
know where to fish.
>and then surviving 25 million years to defeat the
>Marquis of Death?
And that's exactly what I was referring to in my original question.
I mean - really - expecting us to even for a second believe that he
somehow survived that long, without simply using the time to set himself
up as a god, worshipped by all of humanity? Did the writers miss that
as a possibility?
grinningdemon
<bigriggblu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You know, it really annoys me when use that term in a condescending
>> fashion...particularly when they themselves are fanboys.
>
>Who said I was being condescending? Did you assume I was being
>condescending because you, yourself, were being condescending in your
>previous statement?
I assumed it because of the context of your statement...if I was
wrong, I apologize...I am a fanboy...and I don't think there's
anything wrong with it.
Billy Bissette
news:16lne55sglb20lc5d...@4ax.com:
> I suppose the true test will be the upcoming Doomwar mini
> which supposedly follows from what Doom has been up to in Black
> Panther and is basically supposed to be Doom vs. the Marvel
> Universe...if any story were going to incorporate his new powers (the
> source of his supposed superiority), that would be it, I would think.
>
> Furthermore, I think we can all agree that, even if his new powers are
> canon, they can't possibly last...first and foremost, Doom will always
> be the FF's archvillain and there is no change in the status quo that
> makes him vastly superior to them can possibly stand for long.
A war with the Marvel Universe sounds like a possible plan to strip
him of any such powers.
Lilith
<grinni...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>supposed to be Doom vs. the Marvel
>Universe...if any story were going to incorporate his new powers (the
>source of his supposed superiority), that would be it, I would think.
And an appropriate time to bring out the Infinity Gems to combat him.
--
Lilith
iarwain
Yes, an incredibly weak bit of writing, IMO. The only way it works at
all is because of his expertise in black magic, although that was not
part of the official explanation.
I took it that the events in Thor preceded the recent events in FF.
Scott Eiler
If Doom is experimenting on Asgardians to discover the secret of
immortality, that probably *would* help him survive those millions of
years.
FSogol
I took it as Doom had his fingers crossed when the plesiosaur ate him,
so it didn't count.
--
FSogol
grinningdemon
wrote:
As good an explanation as any.
iarwain
Good point, I hadn't even considered that. Perhaps I had the
continuity backwards, and the current events in Thor preceded the
prior events in FF.