Thor vs. Hulk - who actually wins?
R Meiler
(Marty Busse) writes:
> I believe every Thor/Hulk fight to date has been inconclusive: however,
>in the original conception, Stan Lee did think that Thor was stronger than
>the Hulk. However, the Hulk's strength at the time was comparable to that of
>the thing, and the whole "madder he gets" bit hadn't been fully worked out
>either.
>
> The Marvel Superheroes stats can be used to stage fights between
>Blondie and ole Jade Jaws, but there is a great deal of argument about them.
>According to the stats, the Hulk can reach Class 1000 strength when he gets
>really ticked: even with his magic belt, Thor doesn't compare. And,
>there is no practical limit to the Hulk's strength, so I'd give him an edge
>against Thor. Maybe there should be a THor vs. Hulk one shot, with the
>winner determined by vote? :-)
AAAARRGGH! (an interjection generaly set apart from a sentence by an
exclaimation point, or by comma when the feeling's not as strong).
Please don't start that whole vote thing again. Have we learned nothing?
Also in retrospect, much of the OHOTMU seems to be in conflict with some
issues of Marvel books. Especially in the department of relative power
levels. I think the whole idea of a handbook arose from role-playing games.
And this was (IMHO) unfortunate.
I do believe that Marvel needs some kind of grand chart of who is who
and who can do what to avoid having currently popular characters beat up
established heroes as a way of establishing cheap credibility. For a while
Wolverine was beating up everyone and it got a little tiresome (much as I
liked the original character).
As to the specific case of the Hulk and Thor; don't sell Thor short. He
has spent several thousand years fighting the giants of Jotenheim who are
much larger and stronger than he. What he lacks is pure strength (not much)
he more than has in skill. As Hela said, neither would tire soon. Their
battle could concievably go until one dies of old age!
I wonder how the Superman fans would respond to this?
Grinning with evil
Bobcat
Benton L Taylor
: : But I would still put MY money on Thor...
: So would I, though it would be close. These are two of Marvel's
: most powerful heroes in action.
: >> Mark <<
Of course, the Hulk and Thor have tussled several times, usually to an
inconclusive finish or they ar interupted. The only time I can recall
when there was a clear victor was Thor #384 (I think that issue number is
correct). In that issue, the Hulk thoroughly trounced Thor's butt, and
that was when the Hulk was a mindless brute. Howewver, I'm not saying that
the Hulk beat beat Thor anytime he wants; I believe Thor would have the
advantage. However, Thor was having a particularly bad day that day.
RayKerby
OK, OK, I'm sick of hearing how the Hulk is the most powerful hero
in the Marvel Universe. As a big Thor fan, I happen to know that
Thor can hold his own with anyone, especially the Hulk.
Since there will be a Hulk vs. Thor battle in the upcoming Hulk issue,
I thought that this was a fitting time to check the Marvel archives
(i.e. back-issues) as to which hero has bettered the other in previous
battles. No "What-ifs"; no "future" storylines; but actual Marvel
history!
I found 3 relevant Thor issues, but no Hulk. I know they battled in
Defenders #10, but I don't have that issue handy. If someone would
please recap that battle and any others I left out, I would appreciate
it.
Battle #1
---------
Journey into Mystery (Thor) #112 - this was when the savage Hulk had
some intelligence and before he had degenerated into "Hulk Smash!".
This battle details their Avengers #3 battle - Thor saw this as a test
of strength and had Odin remove the enchantment from his hammer.
Result: the two fought to an absolute draw, but Thor fought without
his hammer. As a result, this Thor fan gives the edge to Thor.
Battle #2
---------
Thor #385 - Thor vs "Hulk Smash" Hulk. This was interesting because
Hulk REFUSED to fight Thor with his hammer. So Thor threw Mjolnir far
enough away to give them time to fight. I believe Hulk used a hostage
woman to get Thor to throw away his hammer (how noble!). He then
proceeded to batter Thor while Thor bent over backwards (at first) to
avoid injuring civilians. Finally, Thor got mad enough that he started
returning blow for blow. Then his hammer returned and Hulk split.
Result: once again, a draw when Thor was without Mjolnir. I was surprised
to see Hulk refuse to fight Thor with his hammer. As a result, my biased
vote goes to Thor again.
Battle #3
---------
Thor #489 - Thor vs "Banner" Hulk. Hulk went to Hel basically to force
Thor to return to Earth. With the hammer, Thor and Hulk fought to a
standstill. This story was interesting because Hulk kept worrying
that he was about to revert back to Banner (not good). Thor also made
a comment later about pulling his punches to avoiding injuring the Hulk.
Right when they about to let it all hang out, the bout ended on a
technicality when Kurse volunteered to take Thor's place in Hel. This
freed Thor and ended any further need for fighting.
Result: A draw, but if the fight had gone on much longer Thor probably
would have had a technical win against Banner...
Final tally: Savage Hulk vs. Thor w/o Hammer - 2 draws
Banner Hulk vs. Thor w/ Hammer - 1 draw
INCONCLUSIVE! (as expected)
Alex 'Al' Michels
> Final tally: Savage Hulk vs. Thor w/o Hammer - 2 draws
> Banner Hulk vs. Thor w/ Hammer - 1 draw
>
> INCONCLUSIVE! (as expected)
>
> But I would still put MY money on Thor...
I'm a Hulk fan, and I would still but my money on Thor. But I guess
they're going to fight soon, (i.e. next issue of the Hulk) and we're
going to find out just who is going to win.
Alex
RayKerby
>Mark Rathwell (mrat...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
>
>: : But I would still put MY money on Thor...
>
>
>Of course, the Hulk and Thor have tussled several times, usually to an
>inconclusive finish or they ar interupted. The only time I can recall
>when there was a clear victor was Thor #384 (I think that issue number is
>correct). In that issue, the Hulk thoroughly trounced Thor's butt, and
>that was when the Hulk was a mindless brute. Howewver, I'm not saying that
>the Hulk beat beat Thor anytime he wants; I believe Thor would have the
>advantage. However, Thor was having a particularly bad day that day.
Excuse me??? Were we reading the same book and just interpreting things
differently? That was the issue where Hulk refused to fight Thor without
the hammer and used a woman hostage for leverage.
Yes, Thor definitely got tossed around; but if you'll reread the issue
you'll see that Thor's main concern was for the safety of the surrounding
civilians. Finally Thor got mad enough and started returning blow for
blow. Then his hammer returned and Hulk left rather the fight Thor with
his hammer! This was a victory for Hulk?
Here are some quotes from Hulk during his "trouncing" of Thor in #385.
p.8 "Put hammer down -- Hulk show you!"
p.10 "Throw hammer away and Hulk will free girl!"
p.19 "Even without hammer, you keep fighting back! Why can't Hulk
defeat you!?"
p.21 "Hulk not afraid of any man! But Thor not man!"
I personally would not call this is conclusive victory for the Hulk...
Of course, I am more of a Thor fan, so I might be misinterpreting those
quotes.
If anyone else knows of any Hulk/Thor battles, I would appreciate you
posting the issue and a quick summary of the battle.
Thanks,
Ray
Lawrance W Lee
Thor and Hulk also fought in Hulk #300 and an issue of Thor drawn by
Erik Larsen.
RayKerby
>
>I know of one comic you haven't mentioned, which contains a Hulk vs. Thor
>fight. Hulk #300 contains a fight between a completely bannerless Hulk
>and virtually every hero in the marvel universe. He basically trashes
>everybody, before Dr. Strange sends him to another dimension.
>
<snip>
>Thor and the Hulk were essentially at a stalemate, I felt that the Hulk
>had the upper hand. I would give this one to the Hulk.
>
Thanks for the reference, Eric. I have a copy of Hulk #300 and re-read
it. Although Thor did make a reference about the adamantium statue being
able to potentially kill him, Thor made sure the Hulk didn't get a chance
to use it. But up until that point, the Hulk had been on the receiving
end of Thor's hammer (& fists).
I would call the Hulk #300 battle a stalemate as well, since neither
the Hulk nor Thor seriously injured each other. Once again, another
character (Dr. Strange, in this case) intervened to prevent the battle
from reaching a definite conclusion.
Another issue I found was Sub-Mariner #35. This was when the pre-Defenders
team of Namor, Hulk, and the Surfer took on the Avengers. This time the
Hulk and Thor basically each trade a single punch before the battle is
ended prematurely. Not really a true battle, IMHO.
So here's the Hulk/Thor summary:
Thor #112 - draw (Savage Hulk vs. Thor w/o hammer)
Thor #385 - draw (Savage Hulk vs. Thor w/o hammer)
Thor #489 - draw (Banner Hulk vs. Thor w/ hammer)
Hulk #300 - draw (Bannerless Hulk vs. Thor w/ hammer)
Sub-Mariner #35 - draw (Savage Hulk vs. Thor w/ hammer)
Defenders #10 - don't have --- somebody let me know!
Of course, I personally give a slight edge to Thor in some of these
battles, but some others have seen a slight edge for Hulk.
BTW, I doubt that we will find any decisive advantage for either hero.
Just don't quote those stupid OHOTMU strength stats! Remember, the
Hulk is one of the few characters that relies almost exclusively on
strength. He needs to be stronger just to have a fair chance!
Regards,
Ray
Marty Busse
Don't forget Hulk #255: "Thunder Under The East River," where the Hulk
and Blondie duke it out in the Lincoln Tunnel. Fight is a draw, but a moral
victory for the Hulk. Thor was really being a jerk: the Hulk was trying to
leave New York, but after Thor attacked him, the Hulk fought back. Thor
tries to get the HUlk to calm down by telling him that the Hulk is terrifying
the people of New York: the Hulk responds that they're scared of both him and
THor. Blondie realizes that the Hulk is right and that their fight has damaged
the tunnel: he drops his hammer and tries to buttress the tunnel. Hulk tries
to lift hammer, it turns into a stick, THor turns into DOn Blake, who tries
to explain his dual existence to the HUlk. The Hulk decides that Thor
must hate Blake the way he hates Banner, so he just tosses Blake aside and
leaves, stowing aboard a ship bound for Israel. Blake turns back into Thor
and prevents the tunnel from collapsing, then admits to the cops that there
wouldn't have been a fight if he'd realized the Hulk just wanted to get away.
--
"Those who would have good government without its correlative
misrule, and right without its correlative wrong, do not understand the
principles of the universe." Chang-Tzu
Kevin J. Maroney
>In general, I feel that of the Hulk, Thor and the Juggernaut, none of them
>are ever going to have a clear advantage over the others. Under the right
>circumstances, any one of them can beat any other, but on a different day
>the opposite could happen.
My impression for a large number of years has been that Juggernaut's
power is fuelled by Cyttorak, who is some sort of war diety; his
power, as a consequence, is that he _cannot_ be defeated in physical
combat.
Thor (before the Ellis issues) was also a war god, so he might have
stood a chance against Juggernaut, but I don't think that the Hulk
could defeat him in combat if the writer were paying attention to
continuity. He might be able to trick him into dropping a building on
himself, or make life unpleasant enough that Marko would wander off,
but he couldn't beat him in anything like a toe-to-toe battle.
--
Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies | ke...@crossover.com
If they keep you asking the wrong questions, they don't have
to worry about the answers. --Thomas Pynchon
Soulliere Jonathan David
Thomas Suhling
There has been a lot of responce to this subject and I though I could
help out a little. Below is a listing of some of the books where either
the Hulk, Thor, the Defenders or Avengers have guest stared. Now just
because the Defenders or Avengers were in the book, does not mean the
Hulk or Thor were there, let alone fighting against each other. These
groups were real good about changing the team roster quite a bit and it
just depends on the team at the time of the guest appearance in that
paticular book! This is by no means a complete list, because I'm sure I
missed some. The comments listed below are from MEMORY! I did not pull
the books and look at them, and some of them I haven't read since I first
picked them up. So give a guy a break if I'm off a little. Hope this
helps the discussion along.....
AVENGERS #1, 2, 3, 88 (crossover with HULK #140), 118 (with the
Defenders) & 267.
AVENGERS ANNUAL #4 & 13.
DEFENDERS #9, 10 & 112 (Avengers in all -- Big HULK/THOR fight in issue
10. The fight did not last long, with no clear winner. Both
members of each team had to fight against each other to "win" a piece
of a puzzle. The puzzle when put together was someones ultimate
weapon or something like that. So each member of the Defenders and
Avengers had to fight each other. Something like the first to
touch the piece won and was returned to the villains place. Both
teams ended up teaming up against the villain.)
FANTASTIC FOUR #26 (CLASSIC!!! It was the HULK vs. the FF and Avengers.
HULK finally defeated by RICK JONES with a sleeping pill! So much for
strength!)
INCREDIBLE HULK # 128, 140, 283, 284, 300, 321, 322, & 323 (All with the
Avengers vs. the HULK! Some with Thor, some without!)
INCREDIBLE HULK # 255 (with the Thor we all know and love), 421, 422, &
423 (with ERIC the RED as THOR!)
INCREDIBLE HULK ANNUAL #11 (Hulk & Avengers vs. Leader!)
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #112 (CLASSIC !!! HULK vs. THOR. First full
length comic battle!)
MARVEL PREMIERE #1 (With CAPTAIN MARVEL. I believe the HULK and
THOR are both in this issue, but are flashbacks with Captain Marvel. I
don't think they meet!)
RAMPAGING HULK #8 & 9 (Black & White magazine - HULK vs. Original
Avengers. Eventually they team up and quell an alien threat to earth.
There is a good HULK/THOR fight in this one!)
SPIDER-MAN ANNUAL #3 (Avengers try to get Spider-man to join. Has run in
with HULK. Don't think Avengers ever get involved with HULK, just
Spider-man!)
SUB-MARINER #34 & 35 (Pre-Defenders, Defenders! Avengers show up to
make it interesting! Good Namor/HULK vs. Avengers fight again!)
THOR #385 & 489 (THOR Vs. HULK!!!)
As I said, there are probably more meetings between Goldielocks and Jade
Jaws. I'm just going off the top of my head here. But the question
still remains, Who Would WIN??? Tough call. HULK is the strongest. Why?
Because he says so... HULK IS THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS!!! I'm sure
you heard of that before and besides... I'm not going to argue with him!
THOR is a GOD! True and noble and proven he can go up against a foe who
is stronger then he is and still win! So, who would win....
I have been reading these two characters for over 20 years and even
though the list above looks long, these two characters have not really
met all that much! I know I sure would not mind seeing more! And thanks
to Marvel, there are a few books coming out in the next few months which
may just add fuel to this fire! (See the HULK comic this week!!!)
Like I said, I did this with a little help from my computer and my memory.
Hope this helps some of you out with this subject.
Later...............................
-
THOMAS SUHLING ZTR...@prodigy.com
P.S. I posted this under THOR vs HULK the other day. When I tried to
post it to this subject, my modem line went screwy. So here it is
again!
Later.................................
Douglas Limmer
Kevin J. Maroney <ke...@crossover.com> wrote:
>kei...@hp-171.cae.wisc.edu (Eric Richard Keiter) wrote:
>
>>In general, I feel that of the Hulk, Thor and the Juggernaut, none of them
>>are ever going to have a clear advantage over the others. Under the right
>>circumstances, any one of them can beat any other, but on a different day
>>the opposite could happen.
>
>My impression for a large number of years has been that Juggernaut's
>power is fuelled by Cyttorak, who is some sort of war diety; his
>power, as a consequence, is that he _cannot_ be defeated in physical
>combat.
It isn't that Cyttorak is a war god. Cyttorak is one of those cosmic
"magic" entities, like Ikonn or Raggaddor or Agamotto. He is famous for
"the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak" which _can't_ be broken. [They can probably
be dispelled.] The idea behind Juggernaut is that (a) he _can't_ be stopped
and (b) he _can't_ be hurt physically. He can get his balance upset, be
buried in concrete, blasted mentally, and so forth, but not hurt physically
and not stopped from going somewhere.
Then a certain Rob Liefield had to event Shatterstar who was so cool that his
blades could cut Juggernaut, and things went rapidly downhill, as new
characters played "I'm so cool, I can beat Juggernaut, too."
Doug L.
--
Douglas Limmer -- mailto: lim...@math.orst.edu
Lawrance W Lee
Thor and Juggernaut has already fought in the Acts of Vengeance
issues of Thor (#412-413?) with the first appearance of the New
Warriors.
Eric Richard Keiter
: kei...@hp-171.cae.wisc.edu (Eric Richard Keiter) wrote:
:
: >In general, I feel that of the Hulk, Thor and the Juggernaut, none of them
: >are ever going to have a clear advantage over the others. Under the right
: >circumstances, any one of them can beat any other, but on a different day
: >the opposite could happen.
:
: My impression for a large number of years has been that Juggernaut's
: power is fuelled by Cyttorak, who is some sort of war diety; his
: power, as a consequence, is that he _cannot_ be defeated in physical
: combat.
: Thor (before the Ellis issues) was also a war god, so he might have
: stood a chance against Juggernaut, but I don't think that the Hulk
: could defeat him in combat if the writer were paying attention to
: continuity. He might be able to trick him into dropping a building on
: himself, or make life unpleasant enough that Marko would wander off,
: but he couldn't beat him in anything like a toe-to-toe battle.
You're probably right, although it bugs me. I don't like Juggernaut's
character very much -- he's just a dumb strong guy.
As far as Juggy fighting Thor goes, they have fought at least twice.
Probably more. I don't have the comics here, but I believe that
one time was around 412, and the other around 429. The one in 429
was billed as a rematch. I would definately give the first one to
Juggy and the second to Thor. In the first one, Thor is ill, or
something like that, and he gets beaten pretty badly. In the second
one, Thor wins using the magic of his hammer. He throws his hammer
so that it flies around the Juggernaut really quickly, nullifying his
invulnerability field. While this is happening, he beats the stuffing
out of Juggy. Unfortunately, he only has a minute before he has to take
back the hammer (or else he'll change to his human counterpart). He
hasn't quite beaten Juggy when he gets back his hammer, so he tricks
the Juggernaut by attatching the hammer to him, and throwing it into
deep space, taking J. with him. The hammer returns after depositing
the Juggernaut on an asteroid.
Eric Keiter
kei...@percy.engr.wisc.edu
Alex 'Al' Michels
Of course, in Hulk 440, we see that even with both of them running on
full battle mode, they can't defeat each other. Hulk/Maestro was only
able to throw Thor away from the battle, not actually do him much harm
(as Peter David narrated, as it were). I think no matter what, this
classic battle is going to turn out as a stalemate.
Alex
Michael Patrick Lynch
: Of course, in Hulk 440, we see that even with both of them running on
: Alex
This is only because Thor has a sense of honor.
Every time Thor fights Hulk, Thor wants to beat him physically
(with or without mjolner, at most tossing a lbolt)
All Thor has to do is use the hammer to its fullest effect.
Imagine this: Thor manages to get behind hulk for asplit second,
then twirls that hammer taking them both to deep space, he then releases
Hulk pushing him away (Nothing to stop momentum in space, hulk keeps
tumbling away into sun, even assuming Hulk has a breath held)
Or Hulk is charging thor and at last second, Thor twirls hammer,
making a spacewarp that hulk runs through. Bye bye Hulk.
Even assuming Hulk is slightly stronger (i don't agree, but for sake of
arguement), Thor stalemates him, because he is a fighting expert, and has
hundred of years of more exp. fighting high powered opponents than hulk does.
Or what about Thor, combineing his godly essence with mjolner for that
super blast. (I foget what it is called) That blast drove the seeming
unstopable juggy back, has given pause to a celestial.
Can you see a celestial even blinking an eye at hulk?
This whole thread is sorta silly, becuase regardless of who is stronger,
Thor is 100% definately more powerful.