What's your all-time worst Marvel run
Amir Khanlou
I believe the "Crossing" Storyline in particular the the emergence of
Tony Stark as a mass murderer and the birth of Teen Tony was one of the
weakest story lines..
Any views!!!
A.K.
Chuck Hensey
Hmmm....
I thought that the first 20-30 issues of Web of Spider-Man were
particularly poor especially in comparision to the other Spider-Man
books at that time... of course this barely can hold a candle to Maximum
Carnage and Clonage.
One or two of the recent runs on Avengers have been depressing (the
Collection Obsession comes to mind as well as the Teen-Tony bit) as has
the post AOA X-books, especially X-Factor.
Gerber's run on Defenders wasn't my cup of tea, though looking back on
it, it wasn't really that bad. Hmmm.... bad runs... Kickers anyone? :)
West Coast Avengers also had a particularly low time from post Imortus
to the Pacific Overlords and then with the last 10 issues or so. The
Human Fly was also a bad idea, but I digress.
Of course there was always the Rouge mini series, but I believe we had
to actually have a storyline to qualify for this category so this mini
is not applicable.
Chuck Hensey
Tom Thayil
Torn between Maximum Carnage and X-ecutioners Song.
Anyone want a complete set with cards of the latter? :)
Cheers,
Tom
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Thayil tth...@utmb.edu
University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston
"I am made from the dust of the stars, and the oceans
flow in my veins."
-N.P.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joll
Chuck Hensey <sha...@ntwrks.com> wrote in article
<335D7A...@ntwrks.com>...
>
> Amir Khanlou wrote:
> >
> > I believe the "Crossing" Storyline in particular the the emergence of
> > Tony Stark as a mass murderer and the birth of Teen Tony was one of the
> > weakest story lines..
> >
> > Any views!!!
> >
> > A.K.
>
> Hmmm....
>
> I thought that the first 20-30 issues of Web of Spider-Man were
> particularly poor especially in comparision to the other Spider-Man
> books at that time... of course this barely can hold a candle to Maximum
> Carnage and Clonage.
>
> One or two of the recent runs on Avengers have been depressing (the
> Collection Obsession comes to mind as well as the Teen-Tony bit) as has
> the post AOA X-books, especially X-Factor.
>
> Gerber's run on Defenders wasn't my cup of tea, though looking back on
> it, it wasn't really that bad. Hmmm.... bad runs... Kickers anyone? :)
> West Coast Avengers also had a particularly low time from post Imortus
> to the Pacific Overlords and then with the last 10 issues or so. T
Hmmm... my two cents worth
Worst artwork: Damage Control III
Runner-up: Excalibur, late thirties, Doctor Doom in Limbo
Worst writing: Starlin and Marz' run on Thor
Runner-up: Early issues of X-Force
And here's a new category: Worst Creative Decisions.
Worst: Killing Thunderstrike.
Runner-up: Sabretooth joining X-Factor
Regards
Dave Joll
>
NYSteve111
Al Milgrom's year on the Hulk - The longest year EVER
NYSteve
DERVISH M
In article <335D8C...@sympatico.ca>, Amir Khanlou
<amir.k...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>I believe the "Crossing" Storyline in particular the the emergence of
>Tony Stark as a mass murderer and the birth of Teen Tony was one of the
>weakest story lines..
>
>Any views!!!
>
>
I have mixed feelings about teen Tony. He was a breath
of fresh air after the whole Crossing fiasco. The Avengers
and Iron Man had seemed to be floundering up until the
Crossing so some change was needed, the major problem
was that the Crossing was so gawd awful. It also dealt a
blow to Marvel's continuity credibility. I feel like going Anthony
Stark meet Hal Jordan.
I was also disappointed that the Crossing took some-teen
number of issues to tell and it was retold in Iron Man : Age of
Innocence completly in one issue. Talk about your filling space
for an idea. Also Age of Innocence was a much better and
coherent telling of the story.
M J Moran "I'm sure there are other bad runs in Marvel but I
try not to think of them too often"
Hosun S. Lee
Tom Thayil (tth...@marlin.utmb.edu) wrote:
: Torn between Maximum Carnage and X-ecutioners Song.
: Anyone want a complete set with cards of the latter? :)
Is that a threat?
--
\\ \\ Hosun Lee / Vorpal Bunny(TM)
\\_\\ WWW: http://web.syr.edu/~holee/
( X-X) [Flan, by the way, does use meat, eggs and potatoes, dammit!!]
{_^_} [See http://www.lspace.org/fandom/recipes/ . Oh yeah, "Quip."]
Jeanne Burch
Hands down, Byrne's stint on West Coast Avengers, where
he took his "favorite" character, the Scarlet Witch, and ruined
her.
Jeanne
--
_______________________________________________________________
The Women of Marvel Comics! <http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2855>
The Villains of Marvel Comics! <http://www.sigma.net/burch/index.html>
Mike Feeney
NYSteve111 (nyste...@aol.com) wrote:
: Al Milgrom's year on the Hulk - The longest year EVER
: NYSteve
This is quite interesting! I began the other post entitled
"What's your all-time favorite Marvel run?", and quite a
few of the responses I got listed one of my all-time
"worst" runs (IMHO :)) -- John Byrne's run on Fantastic
Four back in the low #200's! The year must have been
1979 or 1980 I think because this was way back when
I had my first subscription to Marvel ($4.00 for a
year of any title! - I guess this really dates me, huh?)
Anyway, I had been loving the Fantastic Four comics in the
late 100's (170 -200): I really loved this style of artwork.
Issue #200 with Reed defeating Dr. Doom remains one of my
all-time favorites, especially in the art department. The
cover art alone is terrific! But then along comes John Byrne,
whose art I absolutley *loved* on Marvel Team-Up 57-70, and
he used a completely different stlye for the FF -- much more
gritty and dark. They didn't even look like the FF anymore!
And I hated the dark blue uniforms!!
Of course, I was about 14 at the time and I seriously thought
about canceling my subscription to FF. Perhaps now that I
am much older, I should go back and re-read this issues.
Maybe now I can appreciate the stories a little more. But
I still like the traditional FF art style (pre Byrne), and
I'll always prefer the original light blue uniforms.
Surprisingly, Byrne's art in Marvel Two-in-one #50
was *perfect* -- great portrayal of Reed and Ben!!
Why did he have to change everything in his later FF work?
--Mike
DMK
Three guesses.
Bill Mantlo's Alpha Flight: #29-#66, minus one or two fill-in issues by
other writers.
DMK - Keeper of the Alpha Flight flame.
--
"Sic 'em, Rover." - Madison Jeffries, Alpha Flight #28
Dwayne MacKinnon My opinions are my own, they
dway...@nortel.ca aren't my employer's.
Jacob W Michaels
Jeanne Burch (jbu...@sunstroke.sdsu.edu) wrote:
>Hands down, Byrne's stint on West Coast Avengers, where
>he took his "favorite" character, the Scarlet Witch, and ruined
>her.
I tihnk this is an interesting one. It's one of my favorite runs because
it got me into comics. At the same time, I can see why people who read
earlier continuity hate it so much. I think it's interesting that many
of the stories we're listing have to do with continuity problems instead
of poor writing.
I know for me, the worst story was the Cursing. On the other hand, many
of the recent xbooks and limited series have had some of the worst writing.
Jacob
Alleycat
Drotharios wrote:
>
> DeFalco's Fantastic Four was unredeemably awful.
It's about TIME somebody mentioned that in this thread... (shudder)
Alicia's really a Skrull and Johnny burned down a building and Ben's got
his face all slashed and Sue's wearing... (choke) and Reed's dead, but he
really isn't 'cause he's been imprisoned by his grandson/plot device
and...
Alleycat
I'm not gonna rant. I'm not gonna rant...
Mark
The worst run on a Marvel book IMO was Chichester and McDaniels run
on Daredevil (around issues 298-340).This quickly went from my favorite
to least favorite in abou 3 issues. I did stick with it for a couple
years hoping that the Re-introduction of Elektra may bring something to
the book. It didn't. Chichesters writing was incomprehensible, and
looking at McDaniel's art made my head ache. It was impossible to see
what was going on.Also the dark coloring on the book made McDaniels
scribblings even more abstract.
My least favorite short storyline however was Tony Isabella's issues
on Web of Spiderman (around issue 55 or so). It was the story of SM
fighting 2 villans who could do a painting of something and have it come
to life. Horrible! This garbage made me give up Web on the spot. And
normally I like Tony's writing. I loved His Black Lightning especially.
I don't know what he was thinking here though.
-----------Mark
Drotharios
DeFalco's Fantastic Four was unredeemably awful.
Secret Wars II
The Spiderman books as a whole from the Peter's parents storyline to the
wrapping up of the clone mess were pretty horrible, though it's hard to
pick out one particular bit. Also throw in Maximum Carnage, though I don't
think it was nearly as bad, just a two-issue story that was dragged out
forever.
X-Force for it's first little bit (ie, before Rob left) and the
Advantageous Spiderman through the McFarlane and Larsen runs, which showed
us why most artists stay only artists.
Secret Wars II
Fantastic Four Unlimited with Trimpe's "look ma not talent!" Rob-copying
style was unreadable.
Ravage 2099 after Stan left was a mess - while Ravage wasn't Stan's best
work, it was miles beyond the crap that replaced it.
And, I guess, Secret Wars II.
***********************************************************************************
Drotharios Necrophilos Omnisciens
God-Emperor of Marsupia, King of the Wombat people
Trickster god of the Marsupian Pantheon
*******************************************
Bacarty
It would have to be a tie between the Bret Blevins art debacle on New Mutants
and the current X-books storylines. Bleeeccchh!!!
==============================
Michael Carty
Library Information Technology Specialist
Loyola Marymount University ____
mca...@lmumail.lmu.edu /| /|
/ |/ |
/ |
____________________________/ |____
Any opinions, rants, or raves above do not
in any way reflect or represent those of
Loyola Marymount University.
Steven Horton
I think the worst Marvel run next to Defalco's on the FF would have
to be the run on Web of Spider_Man, featuring the attack of the Neo-Nazi
Blob, and Power Pack's run after Jon Bogdanove left, but before the
Holiday Special. I've never seen such bad art in my life. It's
as if these issues cried out "Cancel Me!"
Zodiac8736
the worst run would have to be the currnet artwork and stories in X FORCE.
Zodiac8736
Thomas Boij
Ian Joll wrote:
> Worst artwork: Damage Control III
> Runner-up: Excalibur, late thirties, Doctor Doom in Limbo
I'd say X.S.E. #1.
> Worst writing: Starlin and Marz' run on Thor
> Runner-up: Early issues of X-Force
Magneto LS. Quote from Wizard: "What the hell is grandma Ben doin' in
the X-Men?"
> And here's a new category: Worst Creative Decisions.
> Worst: Killing Thunderstrike.
> Runner-up: Sabretooth joining X-Factor
Hmm... Magneto LS again. How could that awful piece of shit get
published? I am a great fan of the X-Men, but that LS was awful!
Thomas
Jim Cannon
The worst one...hmmm...
*Crystar*.
Yeah, I bought it. Wanna start something?
ShutUpRob
In article <5jlai5$2...@crchh327.rich.bnr.ca>, fee...@bnr.ca (Mike Feeney)
writes:
>
>This is quite interesting! I began the other post entitled
>"What's your all-time favorite Marvel run?", and quite a
>few of the responses I got listed one of my all-time
>"worst" runs (IMHO :)) -- John Byrne's run on Fantastic
>Four back in the low #200's!
As a matter of fact, this is the run that made me a
FanFan. :) But, please, don't hold that against me. <vbg>
IIRC, that style difference in Byrne's first run of FF -- from
approximately #208 through #220 was due to Joe Sinnott
inking him. Sinnott has a very distinctive inking style --
take a look at FF #288, for a later example. Byrne's own
style, especially if you compare this early FF run to his
other work in the period, UXM, Doomsday +1, MTU, etc.,
has always been different from this run. Don't think of
it as Byrne art. Think of it as Byrne/Sinnott.
-- Rob E. Boy
==================================================
"Lisa, you don't spend ten years as a homicidal maniac without
learning a few things about dynamite." -- Sideshow Bob
Mariner2
Jeanne Burch <jbu...@sunstroke.sdsu.edu> wrote in article
<335E0D...@sunstroke.sdsu.edu>...
: Hands down, Byrne's stint on West Coast Avengers, where
: he took his "favorite" character, the Scarlet Witch, and ruined
: her.
This was one of the reasons I stopped buying comics - it was the last
straw of many. Horrible, horrible crap.
ShutUpRob
To be perfectly honest, I thought that DeFalco's run on FF
had great plots, but he undercut himself with the most
absolutely stilted, melodramatic, unbelievable, cliched,
clumsy and lifeless dialogue ever published at the House of
Stan and Jack's Ideas. And that's no mean feat, given the
sheer awfulness of Lee's own scripting in the late 60's and
early 70's.
As a Micronauts fan, I'd also say that Micronauts (first
series) #38 through 48, featuring the introduction of Nanotron
was Bill Mantlo at his most blocked.
And then, there's all that shit -- and I could find no more
appropiate word for it -- that came out of Marvel UK in the
early 90's.
Unfortunately, I find Rob Liefeld's Captain America too
unintentionally funny to rank it as an all-time worst.
Chad Haynes
MCA...@popmail.lmu.edu (Bacarty) wrote:
>It would have to be a tie between the Bret Blevins art debacle on New Mutants
>and the current X-books storylines. Bleeeccchh!!!
I have to agree with you Blevins almost made me quit New Mutants, also
Tom Grindberg's run on Silver Surfer was really bad.
Akane
Charlie Ball
In article <335E0B...@nortel.ca>,
DMK <dway...@nortel.ca> writes:
>Three guesses.
> Bill Mantlo's Alpha Flight: #29-#66, minus one or two fill-in issues by
>other writers.
Contest over.
Charlie
DMK
Charlie Ball wrote:
> Contest over.
>
> Charlie
Charlie!
Good to see you back! How're things in Merry Olde? ObMU: I'm also not very
fond of the Liefeld Captain America #1-6.
TymTnnl
Anything Chichester has written (or overwritten, as the case may be).
PWD
I'd beg for some forgiveness, but beggin's not my business - Squeeze, Up the Junction
ALBERT B. CHING
I've never _had_ a Marvel run. Oh, you mean my least favorite...
Terry Kavanaugh, on anything. Didn't he concive the ill-gotten
clone "saga"?
Albert
--
Kathy Denaple
"Beauty and the Beast" four-issue limited series featuring Dazzler
and Beast. Yuch!
Also Herb Trimpe's (blessedly) brief run on MTU in the early 80's.
Jim Kenney
Joseph A Santoro Jr
Well, I'm not sure if it counts as a run (more of a
crossover/event) but I'd say the worst would be "The Crossing/Timslide",
when ruined my favorite character (Tony Stark) and killed to of my
favorite books (War Machine & Force Works).
A close second is the Kavanaugh/Raab 2099 "run" that brought us
the destruction of a perfectly good future universe...
-- Joe, yup, I'm still bitter, but Busiek on Iron Man might make me feel
better when it arrives :)
Thomas Dehn
v_s...@pacbell.net
DMK wrote:
>
> Three guesses.
> Bill Mantlo's Alpha Flight: #29-#66, minus one or two fill-in issues by
> other writers.
>
>
> --
> "Sic 'em, Rover." - Madison Jeffries, Alpha Flight #28
>
> Dwayne MacKinnon My opinions are my own, they
> dway...@nortel.ca aren't my employer's.
You are one sick bastich!!! (you sure you don't help Peter David
write.)
ra...@aros.net
Anything by DeFalco and Gruenwald and everything Marvel published in the 90's.
Richard
Heckboy
Peter David's Hulk. I do like his column in the CBG, though.
Heckboy
"Shop smart, shop 'S' Mart."
Rob Merritt
Rob Liefeld's run on the New Mutants.
I have to dig them out, who ever did Justice after issue 6.
Rob Merritt
http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm
Mariner2
ra...@aros.net wrote in article
<ram2-24049...@pm7-19.slc.aros.net>...
: Anything by DeFalco and Gruenwald and everything Marvel published in the
90's.
:
Well, when DeFalco is bad he's just plain horrible, but as much as I
loathe his FF and Thor runs, he's consistently done some good Spider-Man
stories, even if the last few issues of Amazing have been getting worse and
worse. Hell, I thought he did a real fine job of scripting this week's
Untold Tales.
And why are you ripping on Gruenwald? Yes, he stayed on Cap too long, but
back at the beginning of his run he did some very fine stories. His
Hawkeye mini-series was quite good. His Squadron Supreme - what I've read
of it - is exceptional.
Personally, I thik Gru is a lot better writer than people ever gave him
credit for.
Matt Slater
>>
Anything by DeFalco and Gruenwald and everything Marvel published in
the 90's.<<
Now, I can see why you dont like DeFalco, but Gru did some GREAT
stuff on Cap. Granted, about his last year was subpar, but check some
the stuff in the early 300's!
--
Matthew Slater
Northwestern University
m-sl...@nwu.edu
Terry Riopka
In article <01bc4fbf$6a66c880$cc5f24ca@gis-engin-53>,
Ian Joll <jol...@es.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>Worst artwork: Damage Control III
>Runner-up: Excalibur, late thirties, Doctor Doom in Limbo
>
For worst artwork, I wonder if any old-timers will remember
Captain America after about #180 to over #260 or something...I don'
t know how long the run continued
because the artwork actually made me give up the title. I
remember being quite upset about it...
>Worst writing: Starlin and Marz' run on Thor
>Runner-up: Early issues of X-Force
>
Worst writing (without a doubt in my mind)
DeFalco's three year run on the FF circa #380 - #416
I wonder how many FF fans were lost during this time?
Terry
Benjamin J Butler
This is a hell of a thread. I can't believe people are still moaning
about Gru on Cap. You don't write one book for 10 years without putting
out some quality stuff, and the "Cap No More" story, was one of my
favorites, as were all the Serpent Society stories (what a great bunch of
villans).
As for my least favorite run, it was mentioned earlier. John Byrne took
my favorite comic, West Coast Avengers, and ruined it. And Dan Abnett
and Andy Lanning, who took over for him, weren't any better.
-Ben
Paul O'Brien
>Ian Joll <jol...@es.co.nz> wrote:
>>Runner-up: Excalibur, late thirties, Doctor Doom in Limbo
The Doom in Limbo story wasn't too bad by the standards of
that period of Excalibur. For real crud, you have to look
at the issue where the team fought animated office furniture,
the issue with a villain who turned into a humanoid poodle,
and the issue where Lockheed explained the team's origin in
atrocious rhyming couplets.
Paul O'Brien
The Onslaught Index - http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~prob/index/
T minus 5.
Denny C.
What about the Speedball Series????
Zodiac8736 <zodia...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970423201...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Daniel Preece
ORAC wrote:
>
> In article <5jquc4$f...@felix.seas.gwu.edu>, rio...@seas.gwu.edu (Terry
> Riopka) wrote:
>
> >Worst writing (without a doubt in my mind)
> >DeFalco's three year run on the FF circa #380 - #416
> >I wonder how many FF fans were lost during this time?
>
> away, because I've been following the FF more or less continuously since
> 1974 or 75. DeFalco did it. I stopped following the FF from the time Reed
> and Doom "died" to the time they made their reappearance, so disgusted was
> I by what DeFalco did to the FF.
>
I have to agree about DeFalco's run on FF. I've read nearly every issue
of FF up to 300. When the much ballyhooed Steve Englehart took over the
first thing he did was get rid of Reed Richards. The FF has worked when
the other three characters were replaced, but not Reed. He IS the FF
pure and simple (though Ben is my fave). It takes a very crafty and
intelligent writer to make Reed come alive. Lee and Byrne did it
exceptionally well. Others not so well. When Englehart got rid of
Reed, the book lost its soul and I lost interest. I read the book
sporadically until I heard DeFalco was taking over. DeFalco wrote some
great Spidey tales so I was excited. Boy was I fooled! It wasn't long
before he ditched Reed and the book wandered into lameness. DeFalco did
try, but his dialogue was almost unreadable.
Nothing would make me excited about comics again like a resurgence in
the FF. Byrne is the ideal choice. Then Perez, Ordway, or perhaps Roy
Thomas. The Heroes Reborn accomplished nothing but an exaggerated case
of doing the wrong thing. These books need WRITERS to make them popular
again.
Kevin Maroney
In article <5jr7hk$o...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
Benjamin J Butler <butl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>This is a hell of a thread. I can't believe people are still moaning
>about Gru on Cap. You don't write one book for 10 years without putting
>out some quality stuff
Sure you do. Robert Kanigher wrote _Wonder Woman_ really badly for over 20
years.
I'm not sure how I'd vote on this question, incidentally. Byrne's West
Coast Avengers really does have a lot going against it, but there are *so*
many bad comics from Marvel over the last 36 years--Roy Thomas's _Dr
Strange_ in the early 90's, the Defalco FF, the early Larry Lieber
_Journey into Mystery_ Thor stories, every issue of _Captain Marvel_
before Starlin's run, Todd McFarlane's _Spider-Man_ (and some of the
issues which followed were *even worse*_)--who can choose?
--
Kevin J. Maroney|k...@panix.com|Proud to be a Maroney|Proud to be a Yonker
At night, the ice weasels come. --F. Nietzche
Alan Sepinwall
In article <5k12r4$6...@panix2.panix.com>, Kevin Maroney <k...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>In article <5jr7hk$o...@epx.cis.umn.edu>,
>Benjamin J Butler <butl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>This is a hell of a thread. I can't believe people are still moaning
>>about Gru on Cap. You don't write one book for 10 years without putting
>>out some quality stuff
>
>Sure you do. Robert Kanigher wrote _Wonder Woman_ really badly for over 20
>years.
But at least in this case, it did happen. Gru's arc where Steve quits and
John Walker takes over as Cap, while it drove me crazy at the time (I
thought it was going to be a permanent thing and was pissed), is a
pretty great read now, for instance.
>I'm not sure how I'd vote on this question, incidentally. Byrne's West
>Coast Avengers really does have a lot going against it, but there are *so*
I understand the problems people have with Byrne's WCA, but his was by no
means the worst-ever Marvel run, much less the worst on that *book.*
Engleheart's three years were pretty exruciating. Bad art (especially
once Sinnott stopped inking/saving Milgrom's pencils), unbelievably lame
villains (aside from the Lethal Legion and Graviton, was there an
interesting one in the bunch?), and just about the worst dialogue
I have ever had the misfortune to read (if I heard one of the
characters describe their current life crisis while in the middle of a
fight scene, I likely would have had to torch the whole bunch). Steve
meant well, and had some good story ideas (the time-travel one was
actually a great one, but poorly executed because of the above reasons),
but re-reading it now, I have to ask myself, "Geez, did I love Wonder
Man *that* much to have subjected myself to this?"
At the time, Byrne's stuff felt like a breath of fresh air, even if he
did get retcon-happy very quickly and completely mischaracterize Wanda,
Hawkeye and Hank.
Alan Sepinwall * e-mail: sepi...@force.stwing.upenn.edu
Homepage: http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~sepinwal/
NYPD Blue page: http://www.stwing.upenn.edu/~sepinwal/nypd.html
RANDOM QUOTE:
"My Pappy always said, 'A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero
dies but one.' A thousand to one is pretty good odds."
-James Garner, "Maverick"
Kevin Maroney
In article <19970423175...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Drotharios <droth...@aol.com> wrote:
>Secret Wars II
Hmm. Perhaps, taken as a whole, it was. I don't think so, though, and here
are the two reasons why I think not:
First, Secret Wars II, bad as it was, had both a plot and a theme.
(Beyonder comes to Earth to learn about humanity; what does it mean to be
human--repectively.) Secret Wars I had neither.
Second, there was one good sequence in SWII: The parts of issue 5 dealing
with Boom Boom. There was genuine human emotion in those scenes,
including a real and memorable evocation of a sense of melancholy.
(Shooter later proved to be quite good at evoking melancholy--his
entertaining run on _Solar_ is suffused with it.)
Secret War I was unredeemed shit, however.
Matt Slater
>> Gru's arc where Steve quits and
John Walker takes over as Cap, while it drove me crazy at the time (I
thought it was going to be a permanent thing and was pissed), is a
pretty great read now, for instance.<<
I think it was supposed to drive you nuts. I always wanted to ask Gru
about this, unfortunately I cant now, but I always guessed that oneo
of the purposes of the JW Cap was to show readers what Cap was all
about by showing them what he was not, ie John Walker. I thought this
was done pretty well with Azreal and Batman also.
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
Kevin Maroney (k...@panix.com) wrote:
: Second, there was one good sequence in SWII: The parts of issue 5 dealing
: with Boom Boom. There was genuine human emotion in those scenes,
: including a real and memorable evocation of a sense of melancholy.
: (Shooter later proved to be quite good at evoking melancholy--his
: entertaining run on _Solar_ is suffused with it.)
SWII definitely had some good bits. IMO, the bad ones just outweighed
them far too much and made it utterly irredeemable to read. The art was
pretty bad, too.
The worst thing about it was that it had so many damn crossovers, and
(arguably) heralded in the era of the multi-crossover book. That alone is
enough to make it a pile of crap, IMO. ;)
: Secret War I was unredeemed shit, however.
I liked it. It was rather pointless, yes, but it had a lot of good bits-
Spider-man vs. the X-men. The Wrecking Crew. Ben's struggles with his
humanity. Hawk and Ben playing pattycake with the Lizard and Klaw. ;)
Best of all, it was a book that didn't require one to buy numerous side
issues in order to try and figure out the whole picture. :)
--
------------------------
Cthuludrew, the Great Old One
(aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered college student)
Church of Jimmy Buffett
"Actions have consequences."
Scott Eiler
In article <5k1pep$f...@news.asu.edu>, jsm...@imap1.asu.edu wrote and
quoted Kevin Maroney:
>: Secret War I was unredeemed shit, however.
>
>I liked it. It was rather pointless, yes, but it had a lot of good bits-
>Spider-man vs. the X-men. The Wrecking Crew. Ben's struggles with his
>humanity. Hawk and Ben playing pattycake with the Lizard and Klaw. ;)
I liked it too. Sure it was a mindless battle, but it was a GOOD mindless
battle, all the way up to where Doom got the Beyonder power. And
it advanced the plots of several of the contributing books, and everyone
was more or less in character throughout, which is a lot more than you get
from most crossovers. AND I especially liked the way the Wasp trounced the
X-Men PLUS Magneto.
Scott Eiler B{D> -------- http://www.ultranet.com/~seiler
"What's a supermodel? Am I supposed to fight evil models or something?"
- Debbi Walker, Supermodel, scripted by Tom Peyer.
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
Scott Eiler (sei...@ma.ultranet.com) wrote:
[On Secret Wars I, and why we liked it. :) ]
: I liked it too. Sure it was a mindless battle, but it was a GOOD mindless
: battle, all the way up to where Doom got the Beyonder power. And
: it advanced the plots of several of the contributing books, and everyone
: was more or less in character throughout, which is a lot more than you get
: from most crossovers. AND I especially liked the way the Wasp trounced the
: X-Men PLUS Magneto.
Agreed. It was one of Jim Shooter's best works, IMO. The storyline wasn't
ignored by other books, and incorporated well into continuity (many of
the Avengers stories around that time, with the heroes gone, were IMO
some of the best Avengers stories I've read. Especially the development
of the Vision, and how the heroes disappearance contributed to his later
attempt to take over the world).
Brian Hance
On 26 Apr 1997 14:48:32 GMT, pr...@tattoo.ed.ac.uk (Paul O'Brien)
wrote:
>>Ian Joll <jol...@es.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>>Runner-up: Excalibur, late thirties, Doctor Doom in Limbo
>
>The Doom in Limbo story wasn't too bad by the standards of
>that period of Excalibur. For real crud, you have to look
>at the issue where the team fought animated office furniture,
>the issue with a villain who turned into a humanoid poodle,
>and the issue where Lockheed explained the team's origin in
>atrocious rhyming couplets.
Please. Those issues were practically Shakespearian compared to the
Asford issues.
I mean for god sakes, "Britannic"?!?!?!
Blech.
Brian Hance * http://www.primenet.com/~bhance * bha...@primenet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Look, would you kindly inform him that it was Paul McCartney that
wrote 'Helter Skelter', not me."
John Lennon's message to Charles Manson
Michael R. Grabois
On 29 Apr 1997 01:01:11 GMT, jsm...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
>Agreed. It was one of Jim Shooter's best works, IMO. The storyline wasn't
>ignored by other books, and incorporated well into continuity (many of
>the Avengers stories around that time, with the heroes gone, were IMO
>some of the best Avengers stories I've read.
Thor disappeared and reappeared between panels (and one panel was even blank,
showing up later in a lettercol!). Iron Man's enhanced armor went away almost
immediately. Hulk's leg got better very shorty.
What other lasting effects have we seen, other than Spidey's black costume
(later to become Venom) and the introduction of the new Spider-Woman?
--
Michael R. Grabois | http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mgrabois
Houston, TX | or...@ix.netcom.com CI$: 74737,2600
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every person, without exception, who has criticized me fits into some
combination of lowlife and mentally ill." --Mark Hines, 12/5/95
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
Michael R. Grabois (or...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Thor disappeared and reappeared between panels (and one panel was even blank,
: showing up later in a lettercol!). Iron Man's enhanced armor went away almost
: immediately. Hulk's leg got better very shorty.
: What other lasting effects have we seen, other than Spidey's black costume
: (later to become Venom) and the introduction of the new Spider-Woman?
The Thor bit I don't know about. As for IM's armor: it was a good
development piece- the IM character (Rhodey) was very well written in the
WCA limited series (by Roger Stern), and his contributions in the
storyline were directly based on the events he went through in the Secret
Wars.
As for the Hulk, we later learned he has a superhealing ability. Not a
good excuse, but I don't think a broken leg was meant to be a lasting effect.
Titania and Absorbing Man have been together since SWII.
There were many effects- perhaps they don't come up that often- but that
had definite impacts on the characters' development- Kitty and Colossus
breaking up; the Thing's foray on Battleworld; the Vision's character
development during the heroes' absence; Molecule Man's growth as a
character (which, unfortunately, has been wiped clean... grrr).
Just because they aren't still talked about and dredged up, doesn't mean
they didn't impact the lives of the characters and the continuity of the MU.
VLADIMIR JOSEPH
The all-time worst marvel runs
Tom defalco's fantastic four
Thor after the defalco/frenz era
Iron boy
Captain america 401-until waid
THe spider-ben saga
The crossing
The 90's really aren't good for marvel.
When i look at their bad stories from the 70's.I'M not angry at them,they
look cute.
I'll take iron amn from 1972 over Terror inc anytime.
Anyone remembers terror inc ?
Until adam warlock becomes the magus
Vj,fashion mobster,moral mafia
Alan L. Stone
> What other lasting effects have we seen, other than Spidey's black costume
> (later to become Venom) and the introduction of the new Spider-Woman?
Introduced two new villianesses, but I can't remember their names,
only their associated boyfriends: Absorbing Man and Molecule Man.
The homeworld was the stage for many issues of The Thing. Ben's
relationship there led him to persue Sharon when he returned to
Earth. Good thing since Johnny was boffing Alicia!
Peter and Kitty's relationship ended because Peter fell in love
with an alien during the Secret Wars (to which Kitty did not
attend).
Molecule Man gained mastery of his powers so he was no longer
inhibited by organic chemicals.
cheers, alan
--------------------------------------------------------
| Alan L. Stone | email: ast...@hpl3sn03.cern.ch |
| CERN, PPE Division | st...@phunny.phys.lsu.edu |
| BAT 32, 2C-16 | phone: (41) 22 767 7917 |
| CH-1211 Geneve | (41) 22 344 9320 |
| Switzerland | fax: (41) 22 782 8923 |
--------------------------------------------------------
ALBERT B. CHING
>I mean for gods sake, Britanic!
It was that or Brian Braddock, Encyclopedia Britannica.
Albert
--
Scott Eiler
In article <5k46jh$s...@news.asu.edu>, jsm...@imap1.asu.edu wrote and quoted
Michael R. Grabois (or...@ix.netcom.com):
>
>: Thor disappeared and reappeared between panels (and one panel was even
blank,
>: showing up later in a lettercol!). Iron Man's enhanced armor went away
almost
>: immediately. Hulk's leg got better very shorty.
>
>: (later to become Venom) and the introduction of the new Spider-Woman?
>
>There were many effects- perhaps they don't come up that often- but that
>had definite impacts on the characters' development- Kitty and Colossus
>breaking up; the Thing's foray on Battleworld; the Vision's character
>development during the heroes' absence; Molecule Man's growth as a
>character (which, unfortunately, has been wiped clean... grrr).
>
>Just because they aren't still talked about and dredged up, doesn't mean
>they didn't impact the lives of the characters and the continuity of the
MU.
To that I add the development of Magneto as a hero. Secret Wars came
between X-Men 150 (where Magneto repented of villainy) and X-Men 200 (where
Magneto joined the X-Men). This may have been reversed in the comic books,
but that doesn't mean it never happened. And the TV show seems to use
Magneto as a hero more often than as a villain.
rcoa...@forest.drew.edu
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95a.97042...@hpl3sn02.cern.ch>, "Alan L. Stone" <ast...@mail.cern.ch> writes:
>> What other lasting effects have we seen, other than Spidey's black costume
>> (later to become Venom) and the introduction of the new Spider-Woman?
>
> only their associated boyfriends: Absorbing Man and Molecule Man.
Titania married the Absorbing Man, and they appeared together in the
Marvel Valentine Special. Volcana dated the Molecule Man for a while, but
when they broke up, MM carved her face in Mt. Rushmore to win her back.
> The homeworld was the stage for many issues of The Thing. Ben's
> relationship there led him to persue Sharon when he returned to
> Earth. Good thing since Johnny was boffing Alicia!
Actually, Johnny was boffing a Skrull that was impersonating Alicia. And
man did the fire fly when the truth came out! I'm still curious how the
whole thing will be resolved when the Fantastic Four return in "Heroes
Return" this fall.
> Peter and Kitty's relationship ended because Peter fell in love
> with an alien during the Secret Wars (to which Kitty did not
> attend).
Wolverine was so sore at Peter for breaking Kitty's heart (which was
odd, because she was only 14) they made him fight the Juggernaut all by
himself to teach him a lesson.
> Molecule Man gained mastery of his powers so he was no longer
> inhibited by organic chemicals.
Yep, made him one of the most powerful beings in the Marvel Universe.
Fortunately, he gave up super-villiany as a result of becoming God-like.
> cheers, alan
Bobby C.
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
Distribution:
Alan L. Stone (ast...@mail.cern.ch) wrote:
: Introduced two new villianesses, but I can't remember their names,
: only their associated boyfriends: Absorbing Man and Molecule Man.
Volcana is the latter's former girlfriend, and I also pointed out Titania.
: The homeworld was the stage for many issues of The Thing. Ben's
: relationship there led him to persue Sharon when he returned to
: Earth. Good thing since Johnny was boffing Alicia!
Which really shouldn't have been retconned (a SKRULL?!?!?!), but that's a
whole 'nother issue...
: Peter and Kitty's relationship ended because Peter fell in love
: with an alien during the Secret Wars (to which Kitty did not
: attend).
Oh, Zasji! The little alien tramp...
: Molecule Man gained mastery of his powers so he was no longer
: inhibited by organic chemicals.
Which was unfortunately later removed following the horrid "Beyonder as
Cosmic Cube" storyline in FF. I don't remember, nor really want to know
who wrote that one...
But, yes, I agree. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, there were
definite ramifications of the Secret Wars LS, which isn't something one
can say so much about, say, the Infinity ?????'s. I liked them, for the
most part, mind you, but they were mindless.
DERVISH M
In article <5k54h0$kr2$1...@newsflash.concordia.ca>,
v_j...@alcor.concordia.ca ( VLADIMIR JOSEPH ) writes:
>Anyone remembers terror inc ?
>
>Until adam warlock becomes the mag
I'm kind of a sick puppy since I enjoyed Terrow Inc. I got the
feeling it was a continuation of one of the characters
introduced in the Shadowline Saga : Critical Mass. Talk
about a series that was not good but I enjoyed --- the
Shadow line stuff was all over the place but I enjoyed the
ideas if not always the execution.
M J Moran
Michael Patrick Lynch
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu wrote:
: But, yes, I agree. As I posted elsewhere in this thread, there were
: can say so much about, say, the Infinity ?????'s. I liked them, for the
: most part, mind you, but they were mindless.
I don't know if i agree with that. They might not have been as lasting
but they did provide some great insights into Warlock and Thanos.
As for lasting effects, thier resurrection, the Infinity Watch (though
short lived), all the Ultraverse crossover crap, spidey's doppelganger,
All in all the best stuff had to do with Warlock or Thanos (Seeing Thanos
as a hero was quite a shocker)
Michael
Alan L. Stone
> > The homeworld was the stage for many issues of The Thing. Ben's
> > relationship there led him to persue Sharon when he returned to
> > Earth. Good thing since Johnny was boffing Alicia!
>
> Actually, Johnny was boffing a Skrull that was impersonating Alicia. And
> man did the fire fly when the truth came out! I'm still curious how the
> whole thing will be resolved when the Fantastic Four return in "Heroes
> Return" this fall.
I think the Skrull/Alicia plot was a bit of a retcon.
For at least six years of issues, there was nothing to
indicate that Alicia was anything but human.
> > Peter and Kitty's relationship ended because Peter fell in love
> > with an alien during the Secret Wars (to which Kitty did not
> > attend).
>
> Wolverine was so sore at Peter for breaking Kitty's heart (which was
> odd, because she was only 14) they made him fight the Juggernaut all by
> himself to teach him a lesson.
But Peter was only 17 I believe...
KingMo69
-Walt Simonson's run on Avengers (Mr. Fantastic, Gilgamesh, Invisible
Woman, and some truly pathetic characters that belonged in the old
Defenders team)
-Secret Wars 2 (Al Milgrom's work at this time was truly pathetic)
-Steve Englehart's run on Fantastic Four (She-Thing???)
-KingMo69
Andrew S Goldstein
"Denny C." <den...@ccse.net> writes:
>What about the Speedball Series????
Yes!!! I remember buying issue #1 and being all excited because Stan the
Hypster had billed it as being a Silver-Agey throwback similar to the
early days of Spider-Man (a concept executed much better a few years later
;)). Instead, all I got was a load of dated schlock. Yuck!!
Andrew
(I mean, 'The Sticker'? That's a villain?? Oooh, I'm shaking!)
Brian Alan Smith
On 27 Apr 1997, Kevin Maroney wrote that Secret Wars II wasn't all bad,
because it had a plot, theme, and genuine human emotion in its dealings
with Boom Boom.
You know, I've defended Secret Wars I over Secret Wars II numerous times
in this forum, but, darn it, I can't argue with this. In fact, there's a
whole other thread now devoted to the virtues of the first Secret Wars,
and I may yet contribute to it.
However, between these observations, and the fact that similar views are
shared by my most trusted comics-reading pal (who's only about five months
removed from having first read both series, on loan from me)...I'm going
to have to rethink this whole "One over Two" notion I've got.
> Secret War I was unredeemed shit, however.
Well, my cousin and that series were the two things which turned me on to
comics all those years ago. I'd like to think, in some cosmic sense, that
THAT'S redeeming. (Those of you whom I've annoyed in this forum at some
point, feel free to disagree.)
More ObThread: My vote goes to DeFalco's Fantastic Four run, which forced
me to bail out on a title I'd followed for roughly a decade. Even without
Reed's "death", I just couldn't take the quickly-became-the-standard plot
device of, "Villain fights the Four, berates the Thing as the weak link,
Thing pummels Villain, Thing proves self to Villain."
Brian Smith
I think the "annoyed" amounts to exactly three people, but, hey, I could
be wrong
Brian Alan Smith
On 29 Apr 1997 jsm...@imap1.asu.edu responded to Michael R. Grabois's
statement, "Iron Man's enhanced armor went away almost immediately" after
the Secret Wars:
> it was a good development piece- the IM character (Rhodey) was very well
> written in the WCA limited series (by Roger Stern), and his
> contributions in the storyline were directly based on the events he went
> through in the Secret Wars.
I think Mr. Grabois refers to when Iron Man was trapped with the rest of
the heroes under that mean ol' mountain, and Reed Richards modified the
armor to allow for the input of a lot of extra energy. When Rhodey blew
the mountain clean apart, he observed something to the effect of "With
enough power...I can do anything!"
Sure, that contributed to Rhodey's "I *am* Iron Man!" delusions, but I
think the point is, we never saw Rhodey hook up to Quasar's quantum bands
and blow up France, hook up to the Silver Surfer and carve "Iron Man
Rulz!" on the moon, or hook up to that dimension Hyperstorm gets his
energy from and make sense of the X-Men once and for all.
Brian Smith
because, you know, I would've bought those books
Matt Slater
>>
I think Mr. Grabois refers to when Iron Man was trapped with the rest
of
the heroes under that mean ol' mountain, and Reed Richards modified
the
armor to allow for the input of a lot of extra energy.<<
No, what he was reffering to was the new "tracking & dogding" computer
systems Reed Richards installed
Peter Likidis
NYSteve111 wrote:
>
> Al Milgrom's year on the Hulk - The longest year EVER
>
You mean there was an artist who did a run on the hulk for more than
five issues in a row? I don't believe it.....
--
Peter Likidis
cen...@wr.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5223/
"Once you start down the path of the dark side forever will it dominiate
your destiny" - Yoda
Hosun S. Lee
Iron Man's "new" armor was followed up in an issue of QUASAR where it was
revealed, of all things, that the armor was sentient. That was the reason
it didn't work on earth, it was was trying to take over the rest of the
armor.
It later grew into a gigant metallic insect-like creature that was
eventually melted to slag.
--
\\ \\ Hosun Lee
\\_\\ WWW: http://web.syr.edu/~holee/
( X-X) [Flan, by the way, does use meat, eggs and potatoes, dammit!!]
{_^_} [See http://www.lspace.org/fandom/recipes/ . Oh yeah, "Quip."]
Robert A. Jung
In article <5kbuhc$4...@newstand.syr.edu> ho...@syr.edu writes:
>Iron Man's "new" armor was followed up in an issue of QUASAR where it was
>revealed, of all things, that the armor was sentient. That was the reason
>it didn't work on earth, it was was trying to take over the rest of the
>armor.
>
>It later grew into a gigant metallic insect-like creature that was
>eventually melted to slag.
Unlike Spider-Man's SECRET WARS costume, which grew an ugly jaw, developed a
drooling problem, and got its own fanboy-supported title? B-)
--R.J.
B-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and if other people are
amused by it, then it's fine. If they're not, then that's also fine."
Send mail to rj...@netcom.com --Frank Zappa
------- Visit Rob on the web! ------ http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/ -------
Michael R. Grabois
On Thu, 01 May 1997 04:02:49 -0500, Matt Slater <m-sl...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>
>>>
>I think Mr. Grabois refers to when Iron Man was trapped with the rest
>of
>the heroes under that mean ol' mountain, and Reed Richards modified
>the
>armor to allow for the input of a lot of extra energy.<<
>
>No, what he was reffering to was the new "tracking & dogding" computer
>systems Reed Richards installed
I'm not sure exactly what I was referring to. It's been ages since I read it.
Anyway, someone souped up Iron Man's armor on the SW planet, which worked fine
when he was there. Then when he got back, it lasted maybe two issues until IM
discovered it didn't work the same way, so he ditched the upgrades. I think it
looked like some really kewl shoulder pad guns or something.
Adam Cadre
Hosun S. Lee wrote:
>
> Iron Man's "new" armor was followed up in an issue of QUASAR where it
> was revealed, of all things, that the armor was sentient. That was the
> reason it didn't work on earth, it was was trying to take over the
> rest of the armor.
I suspect the real reason it didn't work on Earth was that the gee-whiz
cosmic power it provided didn't mesh with the down-to-earth stories
Denny O'Neil was trying to tell. In SECRET WARS, Iron Man was up
against Doctor Doom, Ultron, Galactus. In his own title he was taking
on Vibro and the Termite and nearly got taken out by a guy with a hose.
-----
Adam Cadre, Durham, NC
obscure Captain America villain
http://www.duke.edu/~adamc
er...@mxn.com
In article <336967...@wr.com.au>,
Peter Likidis <cen...@wr.com.au> wrote:
>
> NYSteve111 wrote:
> >
> > Al Milgrom's year on the Hulk - The longest year EVER
> >
>
Bill Mantlo's stint on Hulk. Even Sal Buscema couldn't
overcome those scripts.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Eric Kniffin
Alan L. Stone wrote:
>
>>> The homeworld was the stage for many issues of The Thing. Ben's
>>> relationship there led him to persue Sharon when he returned to
>>> Earth. Good thing since Johnny was boffing Alicia!
>>
>> Actually, Johnny was boffing a Skrull that was impersonating Alicia. And
>> man did the fire fly when the truth came out! I'm still curious how the
>> whole thing will be resolved when the Fantastic Four return in "Heroes
>> Return" this fall.
>
> I think the Skrull/Alicia plot was a bit of a retcon.
> For at least six years of issues, there was nothing to
> indicate that Alicia was anything but human.
I agree.
I forget, which came first, Alicia turning out to be a Skrull, or Shrinking
Violet turning out to be a Durlan?
PhilMateer
Two comments on this thread:
(1): The issues of Power Pack after Simonson and Bogdanove left get my
vote here -- any time someone takes over from the original creative team,
there's a potential problem -- and with this, it was as though pod people
had taken over the characters.
(2) Not to bring the wrath of FF fans down on my head, but I don't
think the Defalco issues were *that* bad (notice I didn't say "good.")
Many plot threads that looked really stupid at first played out better
than anticipated. In balance, I think of it as more mediocre than
terrible.
If you want to talk crappy FF runs, the end of the Englehart issues
gets my vote -- all those "dream" issues when he was just treading water,
waiting to hand the book over to Simonson. When I was weeding the turkeys
out of my FF collection, they were the first overboard...
Phil Mateer
Ed Love
before the Alicia that Johnny Storm married became a Skrull. I remember
reading about the FF story and thinking, "gee, that sounds a little
familiar." Personally, I enjoyed the Legion story quite a bit more but
maybe because the same writer wrote the romancing of Violet and
Colossal Boy as well as the Durlan spy story and dropped hints before it
was revealed as opposed to one FF writer trying to undo a storyline and
its ramifications that another had created.