List of Marvel / DC Characters and Events that are Highly Similar
Jason Todd
the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
parody.
Doom Patrol / X-Men
Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
Batman / Moon Knight
Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
his armor to Black Guy
Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
Red Tornado / Vision
Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
a teenage boy
Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
Justice League / Squadron Supreme
Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
Defense
Kamandi / Ka-Zar
Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
Galactus & The Silver Surfer / Mr Nebula & The Scarlet Skier
Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
breakup of the Avengers
Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
by his former sidekick / Captain
America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
by his former sidekick
Any others?
grinningdemon
<janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
>the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
>parody.
>
>
>Doom Patrol / X-Men
>
>Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
>
>Batman / Moon Knight
>
>Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
>his armor to Black Guy
>
>Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
>
>Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
>
>Red Tornado / Vision
>
>Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
>a teenage boy
>
>Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
>
>Justice League / Squadron Supreme
This one was actually intentional and kind of the point so I'm not
sure it if it should count.
>Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
>
>Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
>Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
>Defense
>
>Kamandi / Ka-Zar
Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
>Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
Not until Warren Ellis twisted the T-Bolts concept.
>Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
More Eternals than Inhumans.
>Galactus & The Silver Surfer / Mr Nebula & The Scarlet Skier
>
>Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
>breakup of the Avengers
This one's a stretch...Zatanna didn't directly cause the break up...it
was a split faction in the group and dark secrets that broke them
up...Zatanna was merely the instrument whereas Scarlet Witch just went
nuts one day and wreaked havoc (in one, if not THE, worst Avengers
stories ever that continues to crap all over the franchise and the
character...not that I'm bitter).
>Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
>by his former sidekick / Captain
>America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
>by his former sidekick
Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
>Any others?
Millennium + Invasion = Secret Invasion
Darkseid/Thanos
Hal Jordan goes crazy, gains ultimate power, fucks shit up, and kills
himself to save the world/Jean Grey goes crazy, gains ultimate power
(in reverse order but still...), fucks shit up, and kills herself to
save the world...two guesses which publisher pulled that one off
better.
Didio/Quesada
The list goes on and on.
Bill Steele
<0ca2607b-b411-4814...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Jason Todd <janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Red Tornado / Vision
I don't see the connection. Anyway, the Vision has been around since
the 40s.
>
> Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> a teenage boy
That was very deliberate, and a commentary/homage/reimagining of the
original. Really an exploration of what happens to the other guy in a
switch like that. Traditionally, Captain Marvel IS Billy Batson, with
enhancements. But suppose they really were two different people...
plausible prose man
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd
>
>
>
>
>
> <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> >the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> >parody.
>
> >Doom Patrol / X-Men
>
> >Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
>
> >Batman / Moon Knight
>
> >Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
> >his armor to Black Guy
>
> >Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
>
> >Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
>
> >Red Tornado / Vision
>
> >Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> >a teenage boy
>
> >Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
>
> >Justice League / Squadron Supreme
>
> This one was actually intentional and kind of the point so I'm not
> sure it if it should count.
Pretty much anything counts; homage, parody, a given creator or the
industry as a whole only having so many stories and only so many ways
to tell them, and the good ol' fashioned ripoff.
It's important to mention that the Squadron Supreme have their own DC
counterparts, the Justifiers of Angor. Also, in that vein, the
Invaders and Freedom Fighters fought teams that were expy's of each
other, both called "The Crusaders."
Also, Kingdom Come, Civil War, and Identity Crisis are strongly
reminiscent of Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme mini series.
> >Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
>
> >Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
These are really only superficially similar; they're very different
stories. I mean, if you call them 12 issue tales of cosmic upheaval
starring everyone, well...sure, they're the same, but that's only a
little less broad than "a guy falls in a hole" and if you're going to
reduce every story to "a guy falls into a hole," well, every story is
an expy of every other story."
> >Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
> >Defense
>
> >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
>
> Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
>
> >Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
>
> Not until Warren Ellis twisted the T-Bolts concept.
>
> >Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
>
> More Eternals than Inhumans.
And even that's more of a reach than most of the other examples. I
mean, obviously they're both teams Jack Kirby's cosmic characters, but
the Eternals aren't nearly so iconic in their world as the New Gods
are at DC, the Deviants seem like random mooks compared to the guys
from Apokolips, etc.
>
> >Galactus & The Silver Surfer / Mr Nebula & The Scarlet Skier
>
> >Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
> >breakup of the Avengers
>
> This one's a stretch...Zatanna didn't directly cause the break up...it
> was a split faction in the group and dark secrets that broke them
> up...Zatanna was merely the instrument whereas Scarlet Witch just went
> nuts one day and wreaked havoc (in one, if not THE, worst Avengers
> stories ever that continues to crap all over the franchise and the
> character...not that I'm bitter).
>
> >Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> >by his former sidekick / Captain
> >America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> >by his former sidekick
>
> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
> argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
>
> >Any others?
>
> Millennium + Invasion = Secret Invasion
>
> Darkseid/Thanos
> Hal Jordan goes crazy, gains ultimate power, fucks shit up, and kills
> himself to save the world/Jean Grey goes crazy, gains ultimate power
> (in reverse order but still...), fucks shit up, and kills herself to
> save the world...two guesses which publisher pulled that one off
> better.
>
> Didio/Quesada
>
> The list goes on and on.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
plausible prose man
> In article
> <0ca2607b-b411-4814-8a6e-3952cee77...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
They're the robot members of the superteam.
> Anyway, the Vision has been around since
> the 40s.
So has the Red Tornado.
> > Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> > a teenage boy
>
> That was very deliberate,and a commentary/homage/reimagining of the
> original.
No kidding?
> Really an exploration of what happens to the other guy in a
> switch like that. Traditionally, Captain Marvel IS Billy Batson, with
> enhancements.
Huh, is he?
> But suppose they really were two different people...
I don't think this was fully explored until Marvelman.
YKW
8a6e-395...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:
> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> parody.
>
>
> Doom Patrol / X-Men
Published so closely to one another that there simply wasn't enough lead
time for plagiarism.
> Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
Rip-offs of The Heap, published a quarter-century earlier.
> Batman / Moon Knight
Intentional homage. (The Shroud is another, albeit with a heavier Shadow
influence than Moon Knight's.)
> Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
> his armor to Black Guy
That's quite a stretch, considering John Stewart had acted as GL a decade
before Jim Rhodes started wearing the armor, and under very different
circumstances.
> Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
One pairing is the result of a deep and requited romantic love; the other
was a matter of lust and convenience. The only links between the two are
the cat-themes and surface motivations of the female halves.
> Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
Other than arrows/mouthiness and bird themes, there's not much here. I
mean, when was the last time Dinah spent a couple decades "dead"? Or ran
a spy agency? How many teams has Ollie ever lead? When has Clint's
fidelity ever been an issue?
> Red Tornado / Vision
Interesting. Came from very similar places and started down very similar
paths (though their human paramours could not have been less alike).
They've taken very different turns in the ensuing decades, though.
> Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> a teenage boy
>
> Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
>
> Justice League / Squadron Supreme
All three intentional homage.
> Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
Obvious homage.
> Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
CoIE changed =everything=; SW gave us Venom (eventually), She Hulk in the
FF (for a while), and Hulk with a crutch (when artists remembered to
render it). Other than that they were both "events", what's the
connection?
> Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
> Defense
Osborne was never SecDef. The Red Skull was, though.
> Kamandi / Ka-Zar
Kamandi was a young boy in a post-apocalyptic future with talking animals
where mankind as such has, essentially, died out. Ka-Zar is a grown man
commuting between a prehistoric culture (with both dinos and warring
tribesmen) and contemporary New York City. What's the connection?
> Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
That's the case =now=; there wasn't really a DC parallel to the old
TBolts, though, unless you count the played-for-laughs Justice League
Antarctica.
> Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
One creator recycling himself. Phone-it-in Jack at his nadir.
> Galactus & The Silver Surfer / Mr Nebula & The Scarlet Skier
>
> Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
> breakup of the Avengers
Zatanna did no such thing. The drifting-away of the majority of the
Satellite League (Bruce, Hal and Ray were already officially gone, Ollie
and Dinah were only nominally around, Barry was occupied with the trial,
Clark and Diana were hard to get hold of) followed by an alien invasion
destroying the Satellite caused the first League to disband. Her only
role in that debacle was being on the Satellite when the invasion
arrived.
The Watchtower League fell apart because of the exposure of the IdC
cabal, a group which coerced Zee's participation. Had she not been
available, her role would have fallen to Hal and his ring (which might
actually have been more effective, in hindsight). In any case, she was
hardly the instrument of this League's demise.
Wanda simply went nucking futs and killed a bunch of friends. The most
obvious DC parallel to this is the much-derided Emerald Twilight GL arc,
not anything JL-related.
> Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> by his former sidekick / Captain
> America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> by his former sidekick
Once the "trapped in time" bit is parsed out (Bruce is actually bouncing
between and taking an active role in several different eras; Steve is
simply reliving random bits of his own life from his own perspective, but
only as a passive observer) and their post-return trajectories are
counted, the only real similarity here is that both were thought dead for
a time and replaced by the obvious choices, which isn't exactly unusual.
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YKW
@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu:
> I don't see the connection. Anyway, the Vision has been around since
> the 40s.
That was a different Vision, either an alien or an other-dimensional
demon, depending on which stories and definitions you accept as canon.
The android Vision was created by an Avengers arch-foe in order to
destroy the team from within. Instead, the robot defected to his intended
target and took down his creator. He would later engage in a long-term
romantic relationship with a human and become a father.
The android Red Tornado was created by a JLA arch-foe in order to destroy
the team from within. Instead, the robot defected to his intended target
and took down his creator. He would later engage in a long-term romantic
relationship with a human and act as a father to an adopted daughter.
Since the mid-1980s, though, the two have diverged wildly, with Reddy
first acting as an Elemental, then turning away from that and becoming
much more human -- even becoming =actually= human for a time -- while The
Vision deliberately turned away from his human aspects before being
destroyed by Nucking-Futs-Wanda.
(The current android Vision shares some physical aspects and a very few
deeply-buried memory subroutines with the previous model, but is largely
built around future-tech armor and has the active memories and neural
pathways of an alternate-timeline benevolent teenaged Kang. Honest. And
he's dating the second Ant-Man's daughter.)
Jason Todd
> Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:0ca2607b-b411-4814-
> 8a6e-3952cee77...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> > the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> > parody.
>
> > Doom Patrol / X-Men
>
> Published so closely to one another that there simply wasn't enough lead
> time for plagiarism.
>
> > Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
>
> Rip-offs of The Heap, published a quarter-century earlier.
>
> > Batman / Moon Knight
>
> Intentional homage. (The Shroud is another, albeit with a heavier Shadow
> influence than Moon Knight's.)
>
> > Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
> > his armor to Black Guy
>
> That's quite a stretch, considering John Stewart had acted as GL a decade
> before Jim Rhodes started wearing the armor, and under very different
> circumstances.
True. But then Tony Stark did his thing, and 18 months later Hal
Jordan quits...
>
> > Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
>
> One pairing is the result of a deep and requited romantic love; the other
> was a matter of lust and convenience. The only links between the two are
> the cat-themes and surface motivations of the female halves.
good enough for me!
> > Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
>
> Other than arrows/mouthiness and bird themes, there's not much here.
Nobody said anything about being exactly alike. In fact, one of the
strengths is that the two companies do do these little homages and
then take off in whole new directions. There are times that one
company is doing an "alternate universe" of another company's
character.
>
> > Red Tornado / Vision
>
> Interesting. Came from very similar places and started down very similar
> paths (though their human paramours could not have been less alike).
> They've taken very different turns in the ensuing decades, though.
>
> > Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> > a teenage boy
>
> > Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
>
> > Justice League / Squadron Supreme
>
> All three intentional homage.
>
> > Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
>
> Obvious homage.
Of course!
>
> > Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
> CoIE changed =everything=; SW gave us Venom (eventually), She Hulk in the
> FF (for a while), and Hulk with a crutch (when artists remembered to
> render it). Other than that they were both "events", what's the
> connection?
They were both the first 12-issue limited series for either company
and involved every single major character.
And there was more: Kitty breaks up with Colossus, The X-Men made
peace with Magneto, Thing stayed behind, there came a new Spider-woman
as well as Volcana and Titania...and best of all we got the
masterpiece that was Secret Wars II!!
> > Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
> > Defense
>
> Osborne was never SecDef. The Red Skull was, though.
In the Marvel U, when you get control of SHIELD, or whatever's left of
it, you might as well be...
>
> > Kamandi / Ka-Zar
>
> Kamandi was a young boy in a post-apocalyptic future with talking animals
> where mankind as such has, essentially, died out. Ka-Zar is a grown man
> commuting between a prehistoric culture (with both dinos and warring
> tribesmen) and contemporary New York City. What's the connection?
Two blonde long-haired bare-chested guys running around -- both of
course, offshoots of Tarzan.
Similarities, I didn't say anything was exactly the same.
> > Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> > by his former sidekick / Captain
> > America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> > by his former sidekick
>
> Once the "trapped in time" bit is parsed out (Bruce is actually bouncing
> between and taking an active role in several different eras; Steve is
> simply reliving random bits of his own life from his own perspective, but
> only as a passive observer) and their post-return trajectories are
> counted, the only real similarity here is that both were thought dead for
> a time and replaced by the obvious choices, which isn't exactly unusual.
Again, similarities, I didn't say anything was exactly the same.
Jason
Jason Todd
I forgot about The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe / Who's
Who
Jason
grinningdemon
>> Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
>
>One pairing is the result of a deep and requited romantic love; the other
>was a matter of lust and convenience. The only links between the two are
>the cat-themes and surface motivations of the female halves.
A better comparison would have been simly Catwoman/Black Cat...both
femme fatal cat-themed thieves with hearts of gold and a long-standing
romantic connection to major heroic icons.
>> Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
>
>Other than arrows/mouthiness and bird themes, there's not much here. I
>mean, when was the last time Dinah spent a couple decades "dead"? Or ran
>a spy agency? How many teams has Ollie ever lead? When has Clint's
>fidelity ever been an issue?
There is definitely a similarity here...aside from the bow/arrow,
Hawkeye/Green Arrow have very similar personalities (even though they
didn't start out that way) and, while Clint has never cheated like
Ollie, he is quite the womanizer when Mockingbird is out of the
picture...and, even though the similarity is chiefly between the men,
the females, aside from the bird theme, are similiar in appearance
(particularly between certain costumes on each side) and they are both
stabilizing influences for their men...and, furthermore, both couples
have recently co-starred in their own series respectively and reunited
after a long time apart...during which time, one of each couple was
dead (or at least thought to be).
YKW
b087-070...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:
> They were both the first 12-issue limited series for either company
CAMELOT 3000 and DC CHALLENGE beg to differ.
> and involved every single major character.
Most of the FF, the Hulk, Spidey, a handful of X-Men (not even the full
active roster, let alone all the reservists and alums!) and seven
Avengers hardly constitute "every single major character". Consider that,
f'r'instance, of all the dozens of folks who had moved through the
Defenders non-roster over the years up to that point, a grand total of
=one= =member= appeared in SW.
CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS better represented the MU.
> And there was more: Kitty breaks up with Colossus,
Actually, the other way 'round. Still, not a universe-shattering
consequence (unless you happen to be Kitty).
> The X-Men made peace with Magneto,
More of an "uneasy alliance". Only Xavier and Erik have ever made peace,
and then only on a personal level -- and even =that= peace has rarely
been much more than a mutual cease-fire, really.
> Thing stayed behind,
Only for a time. He came back after about a year, hung out with the WCA
and road-tripped his way around the country.
> there came a new Spider-woman
Whose solo career lasted for one whole mini. Other than a few years spent
deep in the background of WCA and FORCE WORKS, she faded almost
immediately into irrelevance.
> as well as Volcana and Titania
Has Volcana been seen since the first Bush Administration? Titania, I'll
grant, has had longevity. In the sense of being the female equivalent of
the Wrecking Crew. And not in a good way.
> ...and best of all we got the
> masterpiece that was Secret Wars II!!
And that makes SW the MU equivalent of CoIE how?
Tim Turnip
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
Also Nova the Human Rocket / Firestorm the Nuclear Man -- both late
'70s attempts to recapture the teen-tastic flavor of Spider-Man
>> >Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
> These are really only superficially similar; they're very different
>stories. I mean, if you call them 12 issue tales of cosmic upheaval
>starring everyone, well...sure, they're the same, but that's only a
>little less broad than "a guy falls in a hole" and if you're going to
>reduce every story to "a guy falls into a hole," well, every story is
>an expy of every other story."
Agreed, but at the time, one couldn't help but compare Secret Wars to
Crisis, because before them, there simply were no 12-issue tales of
cosmic upheaval, hard as that is to believe. DC was even widely (and
perhaps correctly) accused at the time of cashing in on Marvel's
Secret Wars hype with Crisis (even if the justification was DC's 50th
anniversary).
(Similarly, I also remember the 1980s Green Lantern letter columns
where whoever answered the mailbag defended the book's John Stewart
switcheroo against charges of copying Marvel, who had indeed done the
same with Tony and Rhodey just months earlier. But more egregious to
me was DC deciding somewhere, at some point after that, that John
Stewart was some kind of Rhodey-like military man even though in his
original appearance he was both an ordinary architect and decidedly
anti-establishment.)
Also, from the wonderful '90s, we have... teen Ray Palmer / teen Tony
Stark.
Has anyone mentioned Legion of Super-Heroes / Shi'ar Imperial Guard?
Duggy
> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> parody.
> Doom Patrol / X-Men
> Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
> Batman / Moon Knight
> Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
> his armor to Black Guy
There are probably a lot more minority replacements... Mr Miracle
comes to mind.
> Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
Female villain also pretty common.
> Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
> Red Tornado / Vision
> Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> a teenage boy
> Legion of Superheroes / The Imperial Guard
> Justice League / Squadron Supreme
> Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
> Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
I don't know Secret Wars... is it similar to CoIE?
> Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
> Defense
Pushing it mayne.
> Kamandi / Ka-Zar
Post-apocalyptic boy vs Jungle man... not buying it.
> Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
Concept, yeah, but not to the degree of some of the above groups.
> Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
> Galactus & The Silver Surfer / Mr Nebula & The Scarlet Skier
> Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
> breakup of the Avengers
> Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> by his former sidekick / Captain
> America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> by his former sidekick
> Any others?
The Hulk/Rampage
Iron Man/Steel
Captain American/General Glory
Bucky/Ernie the Battling Boy
Hank Henshaw & crew/The Fantastic Four
XS met a future The Avengers rip-off in a L* or LSH annual.
I've heard Spider-man/Blue Beetle referred to but it's a little
forced.
Aquaman/Namor
The Flash/Quicksilver
I'm sure there was a Ghostrider rip-off in Sentinels of Magic or one
of those...
I notice a lack of villains on the list... I'm sure there are plenty.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd
> <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> >the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> >parody.
> >Justice League / Squadron Supreme
> This one was actually intentional and kind of the point so I'm not
> sure it if it should count.
Not sure you got the point of the thread.
> >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
> Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?0
> >Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> >by his former sidekick / Captain
> >America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> >by his former sidekick
> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
> argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
Once again you misrepresent what I said. I said some of it has
obvious reasons to exist as a coincidence.
Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
> >Any others?
> Millennium + Invasion = Secret Invasion
> Darkseid/Thanos
> Hal Jordan goes crazy, gains ultimate power, fucks shit up, and kills
> himself to save the world/Jean Grey goes crazy, gains ultimate power
> (in reverse order but still...), fucks shit up, and kills herself to
> save the world...two guesses which publisher pulled that one off
> better.
Simon & Shuster.
> The list goes on and on.
===
= DUG.
===
plausible prose man
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT), plausible prose man
>
> >> >Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
>
> Also Nova the Human Rocket / Firestorm the Nuclear Man -- both late
> '70s attempts to recapture the teen-tastic flavor of Spider-Man
>
> >> >Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
> > These are really only superficially similar; they're very different
> >stories. I mean, if you call them 12 issue tales of cosmic upheaval
> >starring everyone, well...sure, they're the same, but that's only a
> >little less broad than "a guy falls in a hole" and if you're going to
> >reduce every story to "a guy falls into a hole," well, every story is
> >an expy of every other story."
>
> Agreed, but at the time, one couldn't help but compare Secret Wars to
> Crisis, because before them, there simply were no 12-issue tales of
> cosmic upheaval, hard as that is to believe.
I definitely see what you're saying, and I think secret wars was
developed as a competeing product to crisis, which explains why it was
such a terrible rush job.
> DC was even widely (and
> perhaps correctly) accused at the time of cashing in on Marvel's
> Secret Wars hype with Crisis (even if the justification was DC's 50th
> anniversary).
>
> (Similarly, I also remember the 1980s Green Lantern letter columns
> where whoever answered the mailbag defended the book's John Stewart
> switcheroo against charges of copying Marvel, who had indeed done the
> same with Tony and Rhodey just months earlier. But more egregious to
> me was DC deciding somewhere, at some point after that, that John
> Stewart was some kind of Rhodey-like military man even though in his
> original appearance he was both an ordinary architect and decidedly
> anti-establishment.)
>
> Also, from the wonderful '90s, we have... teen Ray Palmer / teen Tony
> Stark.
>
> Has anyone mentioned Legion of Super-Heroes / Shi'ar Imperial Guard?
That's on the original list, yeah.
Scott Eiler
>
> Any others?
Nobody's mentioned DC Universe Amazons / Marvel Universe Amazons yet.
Both are ruled by Hippolyta (whenever she's alive); both have a crown
princess named Artume/Artemis or Diana; both have history with
Hercules.
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 23, 3:13 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd
>> <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
>> >the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
>> >parody.
>
>> >Justice League / Squadron Supreme
>> This one was actually intentional and kind of the point so I'm not
>> sure it if it should count.
>
>Not sure you got the point of the thread.
I got the point...but, unlike the others mentioned here, this was
openly toted as a JLA knock-off...that makes it stand out from the
crowd.
>> >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
>> Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
>
>Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?0
>
>> >Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
>> >by his former sidekick / Captain
>> >America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
>> >by his former sidekick
>> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
>> argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
>
>Once again you misrepresent what I said. I said some of it has
>obvious reasons to exist as a coincidence.
I didn't misrepresent anything...did we or did we not have a long
argument about all of this being coincidence? And don't just say
"some" of it is coincidence, because that is NOT what you were saying
before...you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence and that you
were unsure about what was left over.
>Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
Never said it didn't...I just warned him to avoid this argument with
you.
Duggy
wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
Duggy
wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
> >> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
> >> argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
> >Once again you misrepresent what I said. I said some of it has
> >obvious reasons to exist as a coincidence.
> I didn't misrepresent anything...did we or did we not have a long
> argument about all of this being coincidence?
You said it was all copy. I said that some of it can be explained.
"unless you want to get into a long argument with Duggy about how it's
a complete coincidence."
*Complete* coincidence.
> And don't just say
> "some" of it is coincidence, because that is NOT what you were saying
> before...you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence and that you
> were unsure about what was left over.
Ah. "you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence"
So you admit you misrepresented what I said.
> >Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
> Never said it didn't...I just warned him to avoid this argument with
> you.
How is he going to start an argument with me by listing something I
think is coincidence and can reasonably explained... and some possible
copies... on a list of things that are similar either by coincidence
or some other reason.
===
= DUG.
===
Will Dockery
> On Sep 22, 1:13 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
<snip for focus>
> > >Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
>
> > More Eternals than Inhumans.
>
> And even that's more of a reach than most of the other examples. I
> mean, obviously they're both teams Jack Kirby's cosmic characters, but
> the Eternals aren't nearly so iconic in their world as the New Gods
> are at DC, the Deviants seem like random mooks compared to the guys
> from Apokolips, etc.
Now, I remember reading in one or more of the fanzines of the day that
The Eternals were exactly intended to be the disgruntled and
disappointed Jack Kirby actualy bringing his New Gods over to Marvel.
I know it didn't quite develop that way, but that was the way the news
broke in, what 1976 or something.
I don't have the zine with me any more, but it seems like it was
Graphic Story Magazine, or possibly The Comic Reader that put the news
out just like that. Maybe there's a fragment of this moment in time
out there somewhere, or maybe it was a fleeting thing... but Kirby
coming back to Marvel was a pretty Big Thing to many of us that year.
--
Music & poetry of Will Dockery (no charge!):
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Will Dockery
> On Sep 23, 3:13 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
<snip for focus, again>
> > >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
> > Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
Kamandi was pretty much Jack Kirby's take on Planet Of The Apes...
> Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?0
Didn't DC have Bomba The Jungle Boy for a while in the late 1960s? I
had almost completely forgotten about that.
Duggy
> On Sep 22, 8:21 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 3:13 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd wrote:
> <snip for focus, again>
> > > >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
> > > Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
> Kamandi was pretty much Jack Kirby's take on Planet Of The Apes...
Yeah... Although he also drew on his own older material.
Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
> > Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?0
> Didn't DC have Bomba The Jungle Boy for a while in the late 1960s? I
> had almost completely forgotten about that.
Possibly... I'd say he's more Ka-zar on general concept.
On the pulpy side, I'd like to suggest...
Warlock/Savage Land.
===
= DUG.
===
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
"lock" or "lord"?
Warlord was plainly Grell's take on Burrough's Pellucidar books, so there's
*some* Tarzan connection there.
Ted
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Duggy
> >Warlock/Savage Land.
> "lock" or "lord"?
> Warlord was plainly Grell's take on Burrough's Pellucidar books, so there's
> *some* Tarzan connection there.
Lord, sorry, good catch.
Tarzan did visit Pellucider (much to some Tarzan purests annoyance),
sure, but still I wouldn't call Warlord Tarzan.
===
= DUG.
===
YKW
01e147...@b14g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
Marvel's 31st Century is generally depicted as such, even if the details
kinda fluctuate from appearance to appearance. There are also several
alternate-timeline or alternate-reality lines, like the Marvel-Zombies
Earth or the Days-of-Future-Past Earth or the various Deathlok Earths.
YKW
93ce-f32...@z25g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:
>> Agreed. ˙Does DC have a Tarzan?0
At the time when everyone else was doing Tarzan knock-offs, DC was
actually publishing the real thing. They really never got around to doing
knock-offs of the pure stuff. (Warlord was John-Carter-meets-Conan.)
Rima is as close as DC comes to a non-licensed jungle hero, unless you're
willing to count B'wana Beast (who usually lived in villages rather than
the jungle) or Congo Bill/Congorilla (who was more Frank Buck at first,
then more not-exactly-human later on). And even Rima wasn't original,
having been stolen from a PD novel (with the ending pretty much ignored).
> Didn't DC have Bomba The Jungle Boy for a while in the late 1960s? I
> had almost completely forgotten about that.
Bomba was essentially a "Boy" knock-off, not so much Tarzan. (In film,
this was literally the case; Bomba was portrayed by the Weissmuller-era
film "Boy".)
M1keB
> Bomba was essentially a "Boy" knock-off, not so much Tarzan. (In
> film, this was literally the case; Bomba was portrayed by the
> Weissmuller-era film "Boy".)
Yes, in the movies. But just as Rima came from Hudson's very old
novel GREEN MANSIONS (where, as you implied, she dies at
the end), a similar thing happened here.
Bomba was indeed a copy of Tarzan, in novels churned out by the
Stratemeyer Syndicate (creators of the Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew, etc.).
Aimed directly at kids, so they featured a kid version of the Lord of the
Jungle. These books ran from the mid-1920s to the late 1930s. There
were twenty of them.
But "Boy" actor Johnny Sheffield was certainly in the right place
at the right time and with the right screen credits when bottom-of-
the-barrel Monogram Studios decided to make them into cheap
movies in the post-war years. There were a dozen of these.
Mike B.
Duggy
> Yes, in the movies. But just as Rima came from Hudson's very old
> novel GREEN MANSIONS (where, as you implied, she dies at
> the end), a similar thing happened here.
Hey! I was in the middle of reading that. Spoiler space, please.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote in news:f2ec6e45-53cd-4d25-b58c-
> 01e1470b6...@b14g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
>
> Marvel's 31st Century is generally depicted as such, even if the details
> kinda fluctuate from appearance to appearance. There are also several
> alternate-timeline or alternate-reality lines, like the Marvel-Zombies
> Earth or the Days-of-Future-Past Earth or the various Deathlok Earths.
Nothing sounds like a pulp Komandi type thing.
===
= DUG.
===
Will Dockery
> On Sep 23, 4:25 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 8:21 pm, Duggy <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > > On Sep 23, 3:13 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd wrote:
>
> <snip for focus, again>
>
> > > >Kamandi / Ka-Zar
>
> > > Ka-Zar is more Tarzan than Kamandi.
> > Kamandi was pretty much Jack Kirby's take on Planet Of The Apes...
>
> Yeah... Although he also drew on his own older material.
I remember the name was often said to have come from Kirby's Army unit
or whatever, "Command E" but as far as his older material I don't
really remember many talking animals of any of that in previous Kirby.
> Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
Offhand, there's that War Of The Worlds / Killraven stuff which didn't
last long but was around during the Kamandi days.
> > > Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?0
> > Didn't DC have Bomba The Jungle Boy for a while in the late 1960s? I
> > had almost completely forgotten about that.
>
> Possibly... I'd say he's more Ka-zar on general concept.
Who is? Kamandi or Bomba?
You know Kazar is one of the earliest Marvel-Timely characters, going
back to (maybe) the first Marvel Comic, Marvel Comics, when he really
was a total Tarzan knockoff. Different actual Kazar, but like The
Human Torch, same concept retooled for the 1960s.
--
Music & poetry of Will Dockery (no charge!):
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
Will Dockery
> On Sep 23, 5:01 pm, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
> > >Warlock/Savage Land.
> > "lock" or "lord"?
> > Warlord was plainly Grell's take on Burrough's Pellucidar books, so there's
> > *some* Tarzan connection there.
>
> Lord, sorry, good catch.
I had been thinking of Jack Kirby's orange blonde guy "Him" there for
a minute... still no coffee in these quarters this morning...
> Tarzan did visit Pellucider (much to some Tarzan purests annoyance),
Ah, yes, a bit more of a Kazar relationship, kinda-sorta.
> sure, but still I wouldn't call Warlord Tarzan.
No, not at all...
--
Music & poetry of Will Dockery (no charge!):
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
>
> ===
> = DUG.
> ===
FSogol
> Duggy<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote in news:f2ec6e45-53cd-4d25-b58c-
> 01e147...@b14g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
>
> Marvel's 31st Century is generally depicted as such, even if the details
> kinda fluctuate from appearance to appearance. There are also several
> alternate-timeline or alternate-reality lines, like the Marvel-Zombies
> Earth or the Days-of-Future-Past Earth or the various Deathlok Earths.
>
Also, Killraven (1973)took place in post-apocalyptic New York in 2020
and the Badoon killed every earthling except Vance Astro (who was frozen
at the time) in the original Guardians of the Galaxy (1969). There was
also an issue of Marvel Two-in-One were the Thing travelled to NYC after
Galactus decimated it.
--
FSogol
Will Dockery
DC's Bomba was later by about 10 years from the films, though, I think
(haven't checked) and at the time I seemed to associate the title with
Bat Lash, Angel & The Ape and a couple more sort of "oddball" DC
titles for some reason.
Same artist, or editor? I forget.
Will Dockery
> > 01e1470b6...@b14g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> Does Marvel have a post-apocalpytic world?
>
> > Marvel's 31st Century is generally depicted as such, even if the details
> > kinda fluctuate from appearance to appearance. There are also several
> > alternate-timeline or alternate-reality lines, like the Marvel-Zombies
> > Earth or the Days-of-Future-Past Earth or the various Deathlok Earths.
>
> Also, Killraven (1973)took place in post-apocalyptic New York in 2020
Killraven began as a sort of War Of The Worlds sequel, so I suppose
the Martians wiped us out 10 years from now...
Jason Todd
> Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:3ee46c70-bfd7-4323-
> b087-0702fca52...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > They were both the first 12-issue limited series for either company
>
> CAMELOT 3000 and DC CHALLENGE beg to differ.
OK you got me there.
Jason
Will Dockery
> In article
> <0ca2607b-b411-4814-8a6e-3952cee77...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Red Tornado / Vision
>
> I don't see the connection. Anyway, the Vision has been around since
> the 40s.
At the time the connection seemed really too much for coincidence.
Both were sort of androids, both were sort of based on 1940s
characters. The Vision was a favorite, back then... hate the way he
was trashed in later years.
> > Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> > a teenage boy
>
> That was very deliberate, and a commentary/homage/reimagining of the
> original. Really an exploration of what happens to the other guy in a
> switch like that. Traditionally, Captain Marvel IS Billy Batson, with
> enhancements. But suppose they really were two different people...
That early run of Gil Kane & Roy Thomas was a blast, still remember
those moments reading the first 3-4 issues on a long ride to Virgina &
Tennessee, in the back seat with the stack.1969 was one Hell of a
summer for a Marvel fan.
Will Dockery
>
> >> Agreed. Does DC have a Tarzan?
>
> actually publishing the real thing. They really never got around to doing
> knock-offs of the pure stuff. (Warlord was John-Carter-meets-Conan.)
>
> Rima is as close as DC comes to a non-licensed jungle hero, unless you're
> willing to count B'wana Beast (who usually lived in villages rather than
> the jungle) or Congo Bill/Congorilla (who was more Frank Buck at first,
> then more not-exactly-human later on). And even Rima wasn't original,
> having been stolen from a PD novel (with the ending pretty much ignored).
>
> > Didn't DC have Bomba The Jungle Boy for a while in the late 1960s? I
> > had almost completely forgotten about that.
>
> Bomba was essentially a "Boy" knock-off, not so much Tarzan. (In film,
> this was literally the case; Bomba was portrayed by the Weissmuller-era
> film "Boy".)
Looking into the DC version of Bomba, I was led to... Simba the Jungle
Boy:
http://kellersaid.blogspot.com/2007/07/40-years-ago-today-from-dc-comics-bomba.html
"...Some of the stories from these comics were later reprinted with
minor art and lettering changes as Simba stories in DC's Tarzan
comics."
Anyway, all that seems long over now. Does Marvel even still try to
keep Kazar around anymore?
--
Music & poetry of Will Dockery (no charge!):
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
> --
Mishap
"Jason Todd" <janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0ca2607b-b411-4814...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> a teenage boy
Wild. Somehow, I never, ever saw that. Maybe because of that subtle
difference with the Marvel hero
> Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
Aside from both being crossovers, I'm not seeing it. The structure of
the crossovers themselves are vastly different. Marvel "funneled" their
characters into one book, which only started as the characters returned to
their regular books. DC's was the protype Mega-Crossover Event, where
caracters went back-and-forth between their own books and the event title.
Secret Wars had a finite cast while Crisis literally involved the entire
universe.
Now, if you were to compare Secret Wars II to COIE for format, I'd
agree.
> Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
Obviously, the post-Civil-War Thunderbolts. But did the original Bolts
have a DC equivalent?
> Any others?
Invaders / All-Star Squadron. Modern-era retcon tales of WWII where even
the existence of that particular team was a retcon, and both created by Roy
Thomas.
FSogol
> "Jason Todd"<janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>> Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
> Aside from both being crossovers, I'm not seeing it. The structure of
> the crossovers themselves are vastly different. Marvel "funneled" their
> characters into one book, which only started as the characters returned to
> their regular books. DC's was the protype Mega-Crossover Event, where
> caracters went back-and-forth between their own books and the event title.
> Secret Wars had a finite cast while Crisis literally involved the entire
> universe.
>
> Now, if you were to compare Secret Wars II to COIE for format, I'd
> agree.
>
They agree on levels of quality too.
--
FSogol
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 23, 11:54 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
>> >> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
>> >> argument with Duggy about how it's a complete coincidence.
>> >Once again you misrepresent what I said. I said some of it has
>> >obvious reasons to exist as a coincidence.
>> I didn't misrepresent anything...did we or did we not have a long
>> argument about all of this being coincidence?
>
>You said it was all copy. I said that some of it can be explained.
>
>"unless you want to get into a long argument with Duggy about how it's
>a complete coincidence."
>
>*Complete* coincidence.
>
>
>> And don't just say
>> "some" of it is coincidence, because that is NOT what you were saying
>> before...you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence and that you
>> were unsure about what was left over.
>
>Ah. "you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence"
>
>So you admit you misrepresented what I said.
Fine...I overstated it...are you happy?
>> >Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
>> Never said it didn't...I just warned him to avoid this argument with
>> you.
>
>How is he going to start an argument with me by listing something I
>think is coincidence and can reasonably explained... and some possible
>copies... on a list of things that are similar either by coincidence
>or some other reason.
Who knows how arguments get started with you? We've had many long
discussions and I still can't begin to guess what will or will not set
you off on any given day.
Unknown
"Tim Turnip" <timt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f5l96ttne0h2lnrf...@4ax.com...
>>> >Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>>
> Crisis, because before them, there simply were no 12-issue tales of
> cosmic upheaval, hard as that is to believe. DC was even widely (and
> perhaps correctly) accused at the time of cashing in on Marvel's
> Secret Wars hype with Crisis (even if the justification was DC's 50th
> anniversary).
Hmm, I heard DC was working on Crisis before I heard of Secret Wars so I
thought Marvel was trying to beat DC to the punch.
William George Ferguson
<will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Anyway, all that seems long over now. Does Marvel even still try to
>keep Kazar around anymore?
Certainly, as a background character (most recently, when Cyclops took a
vacation in Antarticta to physically work off some of his copious angst,
before the Dracula arc started). His wife, Shanna O'Hara (Shanna the
She-Devil) tends to show up more because, well, there are more boy comic
book readers than girl comic book readers.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
M1keB
>> Yes, in the movies. But just as Rima came from Hudson's very old
>> the end), a similar thing happened here.
>
> Hey! I was in the middle of reading that. Spoiler space, please.
With all due respect, GREEN MANSIONS was published in 1904!
Isn't there a statute of limitations on spoilers for novels over a
hundred years old?
Will Dockery
wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:59:58 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery wrote:
>
>>Anyway, all that seems long over now. Does Marvel even still try to
> >keep Kazar around anymore?
>
> Certainly, as a background character (most recently, when Cyclops took a
> vacation in Antarticta to physically work off some of his copious angst,
> before the Dracula arc started). His wife, Shanna O'Hara (Shanna the
> She-Devil) tends to show up more because, well, there are more boy comic
> book readers than girl comic book readers
Ah, okay... I'm so out of touch with current comix I didn't even know
Kazar had married. But I should know Marvel will keep him around at
least enough to hold the trademark, or whatever.
grinningdemon
To be fair, his wife Shana doesn't really show up any more often than
Ka-zar himself...the two Shana minis of recent years weren't really
the same character...it was a re-imagining set outside the regular
Marvel Universe...I believe there is also an Ultimate Ka-zar and Shana
running around in the Ultimates but the entire Ultimate line has
become so awful I don't really keep up with it any more so I may be
wrong.
Will Dockery
> "Jason Todd" <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ca2607b-b411-4814...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> > a teenage boy
>
> Wild. Somehow, I never, ever saw that. Maybe because of that subtle
> difference with the Marvel hero
>
> > Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
> Aside from both being crossovers, I'm not seeing it. The structure of
> the crossovers themselves are vastly different. Marvel "funneled" their
> characters into one book, which only started as the characters returned to
> their regular books. DC's was the protype Mega-Crossover Event, where
> caracters went back-and-forth between their own books and the event title.
> Secret Wars had a finite cast while Crisis literally involved the entire
> universe.
>
> Now, if you were to compare Secret Wars II to COIE for format, I'd
> agree.
This thread sent me out poking around for info on this, and I just
happened on a lengthy piece on Secret Wars II, a good read:
plausible prose man
Plus, really...if giving away the ending means you don't want to read
the story any more, well...I'm doing you a favor by "spoiling" it.
plausible prose man
Plus, even if you can't do a whole book about him month after month,
you know, hes kind of cool.
YKW
september.org:
> Also, Killraven (1973)took place in post-apocalyptic New York in 2020
That's the one I couldn't think of, that the Exiles revisited a couple of
times (and, I think, was part of AVENGERS FOREVER).
> and the Badoon killed every earthling except Vance Astro (who was
> frozen at the time) in the original Guardians of the Galaxy (1969).
The "31st Century" reference. The exact details have tended to be tough
to pin down (in at least one version, Wonder Man manages to survive the
attack, not to mention several centuries 'twixt then and now), but "Earth
gets f%cked" is the basic gist of it.
> There was also an issue of Marvel Two-in-One were the Thing travelled
> to NYC after Galactus decimated it.
Final issue, revisiting a timeline where he managed to get a younger
Thing cured to very little general benefit.
YKW
Marv Wolfman already had the idea for a linewide Big Event several years
in advance of the actual Crisis that we now know, and was seeding the
event as early as 1982. (From what I understand, Marv's idea was more a
sort of good-guys-versus-bad-guys CONTEST OF CHAMPION type of thing than
what CoIE wound up being; since he'd played so coy with the Monitor's
intentions early on, though, he was easily repurposed into being the
prime mover in defense against the Crisis.)
It's tough to tell, though, whether or not word of that reached Shooter's
ear (the air is thin up there!), let alone whether or not that would have
had any meaningful impact on the SW project (which was mostly undertaken
in support of a toy deal, anyway).
Will Dockery
> On Sep 23, 4:25 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:59:58 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > >>Anyway, all that seems long over now. Does Marvel even still try to
> > > >keep Kazar around anymore?
>
> > > Certainly, as a background character (most recently, when Cyclops took a
> > > vacation in Antarticta to physically work off some of his copious angst,
> > > before the Dracula arc started). His wife, Shanna O'Hara (Shanna the
> > > She-Devil) tends to show up more because, well, there are more boy comic
> > > book readers than girl comic book readers
>
> > Ah, okay... I'm so out of touch with current comix I didn't even know
> > Kazar had married. But I should know Marvel will keep him around at
> > least enough to hold the trademark, or whatever.
>
> Plus, even if you can't do a whole book about him month after month,
> you know, hes kind of cool.
All of which got me rummaging around for info on DC's Bomba, who was
renamed Simba The Jungle Boy
http://www.cosmicteams.com/obscure/b.htm
"...They reprinted two of the tales in 1974, but changed the
character's name to Simba to avoid copyright infringement..."
Tarzan #230 (Apr-May 1974) — Reprints BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY #4. Bomba
is renamed Simba the Jungle Boy.
Tarzan #231 (Jun-Jul 1974) — Reprints BOMBA THE JUNGLE BOY #3. Bomba
is renamed Simba the Jungle Boy.
Looks like the door was open for a DC "jungle guy", but, as someone
pointed out, at the time DC had Tarzan himself, so why would they
bother, I guess?
--
Music & poetry of Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
plausible prose man
> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> parody.
> Any others?
Did we mention Amazon/Super-Adaptoid? How about Deathstroke the
Terminator/ Taskmaster? And that recent run in JSA was very much the
same plot as Days of Future Past.
grinningdemon
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Sep 22, 12:27 pm, Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
>> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
>> parody.
>
>> Any others?
>
> Did we mention Amazon/Super-Adaptoid? How about Deathstroke the
>Terminator/ Taskmaster?
I'd say Deadpool is closer to Deathstroke than Taskmaster...at least
as he was originally.
grinningdemon
I still say a Ka-zar book could work with the right approach...I loved
that Waid/Kubert series from the 90s (until they left and the book
immediately turned to crap) and the Savage Land is always fun...and
doesn't get a lot of use anymore.
plausible prose man
> On Sep 22, 2:20 pm, plausible prose man <Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 22, 1:13 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT), Jason Todd wrote:
>
> <snip for focus>
>
>
> > > More Eternals than Inhumans.
>
> > And even that's more of a reach than most of the other examples. I
> > mean, obviously they're both teams Jack Kirby's cosmic characters, but
> > the Eternals aren't nearly so iconic in their world as the New Gods
> > are at DC, the Deviants seem like random mooks compared to the guys
> > from Apokolips, etc.
>
> Now, I remember reading in one or more of the fanzines of the day that
> The Eternals were exactly intended to be the disgruntled and
> disappointed Jack Kirby actualy bringing his New Gods over to Marvel.
> I know it didn't quite develop that way, but that was the way the news
> broke in, what 1976 or something.
That's not an unreasonable take on the story, sure. You can see
where a news story might paint things a little...broadly, though, and
if we're going to put much weight into what was originally going on,
well...then Thanos isn't Darkseid at all, despite Roy Thomas
explicitly telling Jim Starlin to make his guy more like Darkseid.
> I don't have the zine with me any more, but it seems like it was
> Graphic Story Magazine, or possibly The Comic Reader that put the news
> out just like that. Maybe there's a fragment of this moment in time
> out there somewhere, or maybe it was a fleeting thing... but Kirby
> coming back to Marvel was a pretty Big Thing to many of us that year.
Here's something interesting:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2007/12/06/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-132/
YKW
news:pnrn969r0d8rrakak...@4ax.com:
> I'd say Deadpool is closer to Deathstroke than Taskmaster...at least
> as he was originally.
Slade was pretty much 1940s Captain America as a mercenary... until he
became obsessed with Dick Grayson, anyway.
Taskmaster is probably most closely approximated by the second and third
Prometheus, though the mechanics are very different.
YKW
news:pprn96tuilhtpl7f4...@4ax.com:
> I still say a Ka-zar book could work with the right approach...
The character really hasn't worked for me as anything but a supporting
player since the Bruce Jones series from the early 1980s. The jaded-
hipster twist on the hoary jungle-lord concept never failed to make me
smile.
> I loved that Waid/Kubert series from the 90s (until they left and the
> book immediately turned to crap) and the Savage Land is always
> fun...and doesn't get a lot of use anymore.
The Savage Land was a major component of the lead-in to Secret Invasion,
and was recently the backdrop for a Scott Summers/Steve Rogers "bonding"
expedition. Given the events of DOOMWAR, the Savage Land is almost
certainly going to be the setting for major international intrigue very
soon.
plausible prose man
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:15:36 -0700 (PDT), plausible prose man
>
> >On Sep 22, 12:27 pm, Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> >> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> >> parody.
>
> >> Any others?
>
> > Did we mention Amazon/Super-Adaptoid? How about Deathstroke the
> >Terminator/ Taskmaster?
>
> I'd say Deadpool is closer to Deathstroke than Taskmaster.
You can make a case there, I guess, but the case for the Taskmaster
is stronger:
"A similarity between Deathstroke and the Marvel Comics mercenary
Taskmaster was also noted in Wizard Magazine #177: "Both Tasky and
Slade are amoral profiteers, and thanks to mutual designer George
Pérez, even their original costumes are similar." They share an orange/
blue colour scheme and many design elements (such as buccaneer boots,
flared gloves, and a near-identical collection of weapon belts). The
largest differences were their masks, Taskmaster's cloak, and the
white in Taskmaster's costume. Both characters were designed by George
Pérez in 1980, within a few months of each other."
plausible prose man
> grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote innews:pnrn969r0d8rrakak...@4ax.com:
>
> > I'd say Deadpool is closer to Deathstroke than Taskmaster...at least
> > as he was originally.
>
> Slade was pretty much 1940s Captain America as a mercenary..
And Taskmaster is pretty much evil Captain America.
>. until he
> became obsessed with Dick Grayson, anyway.
>
> Taskmaster is probably most closely approximated by the second and third
> Prometheus,
Does Prometheus have a blue and orange uniform, various gun-belts,
buccaner boots, and a sword? Was Prometheus designed by George Perez?
Will Dockery
"The Return Of The Gods"... yeah, that was part of it, thanks for
finding that.
Duggy
Does Marvel have their own pulp SF hero (ala DC's Adam Strange)?
===
= DUG.
===
Will Dockery
The old green and white Captain Mar-Vell, sort of?
M1keB
> Does Marvel have their own pulp SF hero (ala DC's Adam Strange)?
The closest I can think of off the top of my head would be the original
Star-Lord, Peter Quill, and his intelligent "Ship."
Mike B.
Jason Todd
> On Sep 23, 2:27 am, Jason Todd <janklowic...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> > the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> > parody.
> > Swamp Thing/ Man Thing
> > Batman / Moon Knight
> > Green Lantern turns over his ring to Black guy / Iron Man turns over
> > his armor to Black Guy
>
> There are probably a lot more minority replacements... Mr Miracle
> comes to mind.
>
> > Batman & Catwoman / Spider-Man & Black Cat
>
> Female villain also pretty common.
>
> > Green Arrow & Black Canary / Hawkeye and Mockingbird
> > Red Tornado / Vision
> > Captain Marvel is a teenage boy / Captain Marvel switches places with
> > a teenage boy
> > Justice League / Squadron Supreme
> > Green Lantern Corps / The Nova Corps
> > Secret Wars / Crisis on Infinite Earths
>
>
> > Lex Luthor elected President / Norman Osborn appointed Sec'y of
> > Defense
>
> Pushing it mayne.
>
> > Kamandi / Ka-Zar
>
> Post-apocalyptic boy vs Jungle man... not buying it.
>
> > Suicide Squad / Thunderbolts
>
> Concept, yeah, but not to the degree of some of the above groups.
>
> > Inhumans, Eternals / New Gods
> > Zatanna causes the breakup of the JLA / Scarlet Witch causes the
> > breakup of the Avengers
> > Batman gets "killed" but is really trapped in time and gets replaced
> > by his former sidekick / Captain
> > America gets "killed" but is really trapped in time ang gets replaced
> > by his former sidekick
> > Any others?
>
> The Hulk/Rampage
> Iron Man/Steel
Fair enough.
> Captain American/General Glory
Bucky/Ernie the Battling Boy
Forgot about that
> Hank Henshaw & crew/The Fantastic Four
That's very much a legit one I missed
> XS met a future The Avengers rip-off in a L* or LSH annual.
> I've heard Spider-man/Blue Beetle referred to but it's a little
> forced.
He was originally by Charlton right? That may have been a
> Aquaman/Namor
I'm neither here nor there with guys who have similar powers...but
they are both kings of Atlantis, so yeah
> The Flash/Quicksilver
They are not really alike that much. Quicksilver can run as fast as a
car, while Flash can circle the planet in 10 seconds.
There are lots of guys with similar powers, but who have nothing else
in common; Elongated Man and Reed Richards are both stretchy guys, but
Reed actually has more in common with Mr. Terrific of the JSA.
Punisher and Deathstroke have a lot in common, you could say they're
different sides of the same coin.
> I'm sure there was a Ghostrider rip-off in Sentinels of Magic or one
> of those...
>
> I notice a lack of villains on the list... I'm sure there are plenty.
Magneto/Dr Polaris
Thanos / Darkseid
Kingpin / Penguin (post-Crisis Penguin)
Kingpin/ Lex Luthor (Post Crisis Lex)
Dr Doom / Lex Luthor (Pre-Crisis Lex)
Ultron / Braniac or Galactus / Braniac?
I generally find the sets of villains in DC and Marvel to be a breed
apart. For example there's no equivalent to Flash's Rogue Gallery in
Marvel. You could say the Wrecking Crew or the Serpent Squad but
that's pushing it. (or when Spidey's foes form the Sinister Six)
You could say the Joker and Bullseye, as both have managed to hit
their respective foes where it hurts, more than once.
You could also say Red Skull / Sinestro for examples of villains that
are the mirror opposite of their opponents. (Pre-Blackest Night
Sinestro anyway..)
Jason
YKW
440e-bc7a-5...@j19g2000vbh.googlegroups.com:
> Does Prometheus have a blue and orange uniform, various gun-belts,
> buccaner boots, and a sword? Was Prometheus designed by George Perez?
His schtick is/was copying other people's moves and fighting styles. The
rest is window dressing.
Will Dockery
> Whether they be homages/tributes, coincidences, had a creator who did
> the same thing at one company he did at another, or just outright
> parody.
>
> Doom Patrol / X-Men
While it seems pretty well accepted that these two being so similar is
just a coincidence, it sure makes for some interesting reading... I
see Arnold Drake was convinced Stan and Jack had ripped him off,
though.
http://www.asitecalledfred.com/comics101/72.html
"...Drake later claimed that he was 'more convinced that [Stan Lee]
knowingly stole the X-Men from the Doom Patrol'... there are some
commentators who claim that Drake himself was ripping off the
Fantastic Four!"
plausible prose man
> plausible prose man <Georgefha...@aol.com> wrote in news:07f4e46d-1b91-
> 440e-bc7a-544353fe9...@j19g2000vbh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Does Prometheus have a blue and orange uniform, various gun-belts,
> > buccaner boots, and a sword? Was Prometheus designed by George Perez?
>
> His schtick is/was copying other people's moves and fighting styles. The
> rest is window dressing.
Again, I disagree; you don't want to focus too much on shticks.
That's part of it, sure, but there's also costume, motivations, the
kind of stories you tell about them, what the creator was thinking and
how subsequent creators have utlizied them, etc. Taskmaster and
Terminator are villains for hire, who only get emotionally involved as
far as fufilling a given contract to the best of their abilities, and
generally assuring themselves they're the masters of their domains.
Prometheus rather actively hates the justice league and all that they
represent and does things for the evilulz. Mandy Waller might hire
Slade to teach government sponsored superheroes, or their own version
of Batman or something, you can't imagine Prometheus in that role. (or
if you did write that story, it would start with the base in flaming
ruins and everyone dead and ol' fats having to explain why she could
possibly think any of that was a good idea)
I would also add
The Watcher/ Phantom Stranger. Not so much in terms of backstory, but
if I wanted someone to show up and warn the justice league and give
them vague clues and hints where to find the villain-defeater box
without being helpful due to some dodgy "code of non-interference,"
well...
And there's Deadpool/ Ambush Bug. You know, both lunatic fourth wall
snarkers.
M1keB
> You could say the Joker and Bullseye, as both have managed
> to hit their respective foes where it hurts, more than once.
More generally, I always thought Bullseye and Deadshot two of a kind.
Mike B
Will Dockery
Looked like Starhawk was perhaps to be something like that... we saw
the ad in the (as it turns out) last issue of Marvel Super Heroes #20
and then... nothing:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/starhawkmsh.htm
Starhawk did turn up later, I dimly recall (and see from the data on
the page above), but as a different character, apparently.
I was really big on the fairly oddball MSH at the time (actually,
there was also a groovy Ka-Zar feature in one of the issues!), and
really did wait... and wait... for a look-see at Starhawk. From the
blurb in Marvelmania Magazine #3 about SH, he may very well have been
(and sort of looks like) the Marvel spin on the Adam Strange kind of
guy:
"...From what we hear, Starhawk embodies many of the traditional
elements of science Fiction in comics, as well as a number of new
innovations."
Ah, the story was written by Roy Thomas, so maybe he can be contacted
at Alter Ego and will fill in some details there... or here.
Duggy
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:27:58 -0700 (PDT),Duggy
> <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> >On Sep 23, 11:54 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:21:06 -0700 (PDT),Duggy
> >> >> Better watch out with this one unless you want to get into a long
> >> >> argument withDuggyabout how it's a complete coincidence.
> >> >Once again you misrepresent what I said. I said some of it has
> >> >obvious reasons to exist as a coincidence.
> >> I didn't misrepresent anything...did we or did we not have a long
> >> argument about all of this being coincidence?
> >You said it was all copy. I said that some of it can be explained.
> >"unless you want to get into a long argument withDuggyabout how it's
> >a complete coincidence."
> >*Complete* coincidence.
> >> And don't just say
> >> "some" of it is coincidence, because that is NOT what you were saying
> >> before...you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence and that you
> >> were unsure about what was left over.
> >Ah. "you claimed nearly all of it was coincidence"
> >So you admit you misrepresented what I said.
> Fine...I overstated it...are you happy?
Yes. Overstating is misrepresenting.
> >> >Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
> >> Never said it didn't...I just warned him to avoid this argument with
> >> you.
> >How is he going to start an argument with me by listing something I
> >think is coincidence and can reasonably explained... and some possible
> >copies... on a list of things that are similar either by coincidence
> >or some other reason.
> Who knows how arguments get started with you? We've had many long
> discussions and I still can't begin to guess what will or will not set
> you off on any given day.
And yet you decided to poke the tiger...
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> Duggyquoted me and wrote:
>
> >> Yes, in the movies. But just as Rima came from Hudson's very old
> >> novel GREEN MANSIONS (where, as you implied, she XXXX at
> >> the end), a similar thing happened here.
> > Hey! I was in the middle of reading that. Spoiler space, please.
> With all due respect, GREEN MANSIONS was published in 1904!
> Isn't there a statute of limitations on spoilers for novels over a
> hundred years old?
Ah, once again, someone completely misses the joke.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
I forgot how literal you are...sue me.
>> >> >Plus... the question clearly includes pure coincidences.
>> >> Never said it didn't...I just warned him to avoid this argument with
>> >> you.
>> >How is he going to start an argument with me by listing something I
>> >think is coincidence and can reasonably explained... and some possible
>> >copies... on a list of things that are similar either by coincidence
>> >or some other reason.
>> Who knows how arguments get started with you? We've had many long
>> discussions and I still can't begin to guess what will or will not set
>> you off on any given day.
>
>And yet you decided to poke the tiger...
That's what I'm here for.
Duggy
wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:20:39 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
> >> Fine...I overstated it...are you happy?
> >Yes. Overstating is misrepresenting.
> I forgot how literal you are...sue me.
I am literal. Especially when comments are being made about me...
> >And yet you decided to poke the tiger...
> That's what I'm here for.
Fair enough.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 25, 12:41 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 18:20:39 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>> >> >So you admit you misrepresented what I said.
>> >> Fine...I overstated it...are you happy?
>> >Yes. Overstating is misrepresenting.
>> I forgot how literal you are...sue me.
>
>I am literal. Especially when comments are being made about me...
Yes...you like to jump on every little detail of a statement whereas
most people, when having casual discussions, make more general
statements...which you know full well and yet still feel the need to
knitpick.
Duggy
> Yes...you like to jump on every little detail of a statement whereas
> most people, when having casual discussions, make more general
> statements...which you know full well and yet still feel the need to
> knitpick.
Nitpick.
The statements were misrepresenting what I said. Most people don't
let that go.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
What I said wasn't much of a stretch and you know it...as would anyone
else paying attention to the thread where we had that arguement.
Scott Eiler
> I am literal. Especially when comments are being made about me...
>
> > >And yet you decided to poke the tiger...
I hope "poke the tiger" is more a euphemism than a literalism.
William George Ferguson
<janklo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I generally find the sets of villains in DC and Marvel to be a breed
>apart. For example there's no equivalent to Flash's Rogue Gallery in
>Marvel. You could say the Wrecking Crew or the Serpent Squad but
>that's pushing it. (or when Spidey's foes form the Sinister Six)
The best match to the Rogues as a team-up would be the Sinister Six, but
the best match for the Rogues Gallery as a set of villains of a specific
hero would be the Human Torch's foes from his run in Strange Tales. That
gave us Paste-Pot Pete, Plantman, the Beetle, the Wizard, and other
wacky-themed villains. The amazing thing is how many of them survived the
Strange Tales run to become regular villains of company-wide availability.
Of course, that's probably the biggest single difference between DC bad
guys and Marvel bad guys. DC bad guys tend to be exclusive while Marvel
bad guys go from good guy to good guy.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
Rockstar Collectibles
sei...@eilertech.com (Scott Eiler) said:
Something makes me think literalism....I also think both the little
queens should get a room and stop boring everyone with their inane
flirting with one another.....
T
grinningdemon
Ahhh, I think someone's jealous...if you want the opportunity to
"poke" anything, you'll probably have to move out of your parents'
basement first.
grinningdemon
It's quite literal...my favorite passtime is to poke sleeping tigers
with a stick and then run away...so far, I've only lost 3
fingers...I'd say I'm ahead of the curve...I'm thinking of trying it
with sharks next time.
Duggy
> What I said wasn't much of a stretch and you know it...as would anyone
> else paying attention to the thread where we had that arguement.
I disagree completely.
As always you're in your own little world where anyone who disagrees
with you is saying completely the opposite and nothing they say will
change that.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> On Sep 24, 8:43 pm,Duggy<Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> > I am literal. Especially when comments are being made about me...
> > > >And yet you decided to poke the tiger...
> I hope "poke the tiger" is more a euphemism than a literalism.
Well, "poke" is a euphemism for "have sex with"
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
disagreement.
Duggy
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
> >with you is saying completely the opposite and nothing they say will
> >change that.
> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
> disagreement.
My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
opponent says that may disprove that.
At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of agreement and
ask "why are we arguing."
It's a recurring problem.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 26, 2:24 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>> >As always you're in your own little world where anyone who disagrees
>> >with you is saying completely the opposite and nothing they say will
>> >change that.
>> Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
>> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
>> disagreement.
>
>My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
>opponent says that may disprove that.
I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
explains a lot.
>At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of agreement and
>ask "why are we arguing."
No...at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
somewhat while refusing to admit it...then I ask "why are we arguing"
because you keep on going even after we agree...THAT is the recurring
problem.
Duggy
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
> >> Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
> >> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
> >> disagreement.
> >My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
> >opponent says that may disprove that.
> I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
> explains a lot.
"Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine..."
> >At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of agreement and
> >ask "why are we arguing."
> No...at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
> somewhat while refusing to admit it...then I ask "why are we arguing"
> because you keep on going even after we agree...THAT is the recurring
> problem.
Translation: At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of
agreement and ask "why are we arguing."
===
= DUG.
===
Will Dockery
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT), Duggy wrote:
> >On Sep 26, 2:24 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 20:35:23 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
>> >As always you're in your own little world where anyone who disagrees
> >> >with you is saying completely the opposite and nothing they say will
> >> >change that.
> >> Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
> >> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
> >> disagreement.
>
> >opponent says that may disprove that.
>
> I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
> explains a lot.
>
> >At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of agreement and
> >ask "why are we arguing."
>
> No...at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
> somewhat while refusing to admit it...then I ask "why are we arguing"
> because you keep on going even after we agree...THAT is the recurring
> problem.>It's a recurring problem.
I don't think Duggy intentionally intends to derail and ruin threads,
but that's the result... subconcious trolling, someone on another
newsgroup called it.
Not that I want to get involved in this back and forth stuff... the
topic is much to interesting, and hate to see it wasted on this.
--
"Shadowville Speedway" CD on Artemis Records:
http://www.artemisrecords.net/dockeryconley.html
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 26, 4:03 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
>> >> Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
>> >> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
>> >> disagreement.
>> >My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
>> >opponent says that may disprove that.
>> I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
>> explains a lot.
>
>"Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine..."
Wrong choice of words...I meant to say "adversarial."
>> >At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of agreement and
>> >ask "why are we arguing."
>> No...at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
>> somewhat while refusing to admit it...then I ask "why are we arguing"
>> because you keep on going even after we agree...THAT is the recurring
>> problem.
>
>Translation: At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of
>agreement and ask "why are we arguing."
Only in your own warped mind.
grinningdemon
I know I feed into it...I just hate letting him get the last word...by
all means, feel free to get us back on topic.
Duggy
> I don't think Duggy intentionally intends to derail and ruin threads,
> but that's the result... subconcious trolling, someone on another
> newsgroup called it.
I'm responsible a lot of the time, sure, but this time was all
grinningdemon's fault.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 05:10:02 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>
Duggy
> >> >> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
> >> >> disagreement.
> >> >My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
> >> >opponent says that may disprove that.
> >> I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
> >> explains a lot.
> >"Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine..."
> Wrong choice of words...I meant to say "adversarial."
This is, what, the second time in this thread that you've had to back
down and admit what you wrote isn't what you meant.
"at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
somewhat while refusing to admit it..."
So, you meant adversarial rather than oppositional. OK.
The fact that you see it as adversarial explains a lot.
As I said during a previous disagreement, when you brought up past
arguments.... I don't recall, I don't hold a grudge over these
things. We've been agreeing a heck of a lot on the ng recently.
And so, in the middle of a thread which is about listing similarities
coincidental or not you decide to bring up the fact (as you saw it)
that I think one of those things is a coincidence and may attack him
for listing it as a possible coincidence.
Why? Because you hold a grudge? Because you just wanted a reason to
argue?
Honestly, I suspect, as is often the case, that you misread a post.
There is evidence in you initial posts to the thread that you thought
were were only listing deliberate rips or parodies, not coincidences.
As such, you thought "Oh, no, Duggy's going be upset by this..."
In fact, no, once again, you were replying to something that you
assumed was saying one things. And rather than admit your mistake,
you've kept up this argument.
> >Translation: At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of
> >agreement and ask "why are we arguing."
> Only in your own warped mind.
Because you never make mistakes.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
> I know I feed into it...I just hate letting him get the last word...by
> all means, feel free to get us back on topic.
Thus prolonging the argument.
This is a problem I have and it's bad for the ngs.
I'm glad to see you admit it is a prob you have also.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 27, 4:23 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Sep 2010 05:10:02 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
>> >> >> Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine...and you are
>> >> >> the one who never concedes a point and is generally intolerant of
>> >> >> disagreement.
>> >> >My point exactly. You make that assumption and ignore anything you
>> >> >opponent says that may disprove that.
>> >> I don't ignore anything...and the fact that you see it as oppositional
>> >> explains a lot.
>
>> >"Your opinions usually ARE the complete opposite of mine..."
>
>> Wrong choice of words...I meant to say "adversarial."
>
>This is, what, the second time in this thread that you've had to back
>down and admit what you wrote isn't what you meant.
Yes, occasionally I make a poor choice of words...I freely admit
that...I have never claimed to be perfect.
>"at some point, you change your story and start agreeing with me
>somewhat while refusing to admit it..."
>
>So, you meant adversarial rather than oppositional. OK.
>
>The fact that you see it as adversarial explains a lot.
>
>As I said during a previous disagreement, when you brought up past
>arguments.... I don't recall, I don't hold a grudge over these
>things. We've been agreeing a heck of a lot on the ng recently.
>And so, in the middle of a thread which is about listing similarities
>coincidental or not you decide to bring up the fact (as you saw it)
>that I think one of those things is a coincidence and may attack him
>for listing it as a possible coincidence.
>
>Why? Because you hold a grudge? Because you just wanted a reason to
>argue?
I don't hold a grudge...at least not on something as trivial as a
comic book arguement...I don't have any particular animosity towards
you at all...but, when the subject came up, it reminded me of our
argument and I made an off-hand comment trying to be funny...given
your own propensity for "funny" jokes, I would think you could
understand that...I was NOT intentionally trying to provoke another
arguement.
>Honestly, I suspect, as is often the case, that you misread a post.
>There is evidence in you initial posts to the thread that you thought
>were were only listing deliberate rips or parodies, not coincidences.
>As such, you thought "Oh, no, Duggy's going be upset by this..."
I'll admit that occasionally I might chime in on a thread I haven't
been following and misunderstand something...I doubt anyone who has
been following these newsgroups can honestly say they've never done
so...but, in this case, I didn't misread or misunderstand anything...I
simply felt it was worth noting a difference between the openly
deliberate and pointed parodies/knock-offs, the less obvious ones,
and, yes, even the coincidences...something you should appreciate
given your own wish to make such distinctions under other
circumstances.
>In fact, no, once again, you were replying to something that you
>assumed was saying one things. And rather than admit your mistake,
>you've kept up this argument.
When I actually make a mistake, I'm perfectly willing to admit
it...can you say the same? Because I have never once seen you admit
that you were wrong even in cases when you argue on subjects you admit
you know little or nothing about (such as Marvel events).
>> >Translation: At some point you begin to listen, notice some points of
>> >agreement and ask "why are we arguing."
>> Only in your own warped mind.
>
>Because you never make mistakes.
I've already admitted that I make mistakes (though I didn't this
time)...which is more than you seem willing to do.
grinningdemon
Ah, something else we can agree on then.
Duggy
> I don't hold a grudge...at least not on something as trivial as a
> comic book arguement...I don't have any particular animosity towards
> you at all...but, when the subject came up, it reminded me of our
> argument and I made an off-hand comment trying to be funny...given
> your own propensity for "funny" jokes, I would think you could
> understand that...I was NOT intentionally trying to provoke another
> arguement.
That's the point. I make those sort of joke and you take them
seriously and complain that they aren't funny, so it's natural to
assume that you don't make those jokes.
From now on I hope you won't take my jokes too seriously, or expose
yourself as a hypocrit.
> I'll admit that occasionally I might chime in on a thread I haven't
> been following and misunderstand something...I doubt anyone who has
> been following these newsgroups can honestly say they've never done
> so...but, in this case, I didn't misread or misunderstand anything...I
> simply felt it was worth noting a difference between the openly
> deliberate and pointed parodies/knock-offs, the less obvious ones,
> and, yes, even the coincidences...something you should appreciate
> given your own wish to make such distinctions under other
> circumstances.
That can me a interesting discussion, yes, but as we discovered futile
as neither side can be proven unless someone admits something. This
was a different discussion and that sort of argument will just bog it
down.
> When I actually make a mistake, I'm perfectly willing to admit
> it...can you say the same?
Yes. In a very early argument you, me and another had hinged on me
admitting I'd made a mistake (and that being used to beat me with
everytime I made another point.)
I recall admitting mistakes a couple of other times in arguments with
yourself. The fact that you claim that I never do is once again proof
that you live in your own little world where you read what you want,
not what is actually written.
Of course, if I was to find a couple of examples, I'm sure you weren't
misrepresenting the truth, just overstating again.
> Because I have never once seen you admit
> that you were wrong
Overstating or are you pretending that's the truth?
> even in cases when you argue on subjects you admit
> you know little or nothing about (such as Marvel events).
I admitted upfront that I knew little about the subject and argued
from that position. I asked for more information when needed (which
you answered with vague handwaves). That doesn't mean I was mistaken.
> >Because you never make mistakes.
> I've already admitted that I make mistakes (though I didn't this
> time)...which is more than you seem willing to do.
That is a lie. Admit you are "misrepresenting" the truth again.
Or I will find proof.
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
And the sun came up today.
Neither is rare and hardly worth commenting on.
Unless you're trying to create an adversial relationship that doesn't
really exist.
===
= DUG.
===
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 27, 9:32 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> I don't hold a grudge...at least not on something as trivial as a
>> comic book arguement...I don't have any particular animosity towards
>> you at all...but, when the subject came up, it reminded me of our
>> argument and I made an off-hand comment trying to be funny...given
>> your own propensity for "funny" jokes, I would think you could
>> understand that...I was NOT intentionally trying to provoke another
>> arguement.
>
>That's the point. I make those sort of joke and you take them
>seriously and complain that they aren't funny, so it's natural to
>assume that you don't make those jokes.
>
>From now on I hope you won't take my jokes too seriously, or expose
>yourself as a hypocrit.
How am I a hypocrite for pointing out your jokes aren't funny? If I
make a joke you don't find funny, feel free to point it out...it won't
bother me at all...I'll still find it funny and that's all that
matters.
>> I'll admit that occasionally I might chime in on a thread I haven't
>> been following and misunderstand something...I doubt anyone who has
>> been following these newsgroups can honestly say they've never done
>> so...but, in this case, I didn't misread or misunderstand anything...I
>> simply felt it was worth noting a difference between the openly
>> deliberate and pointed parodies/knock-offs, the less obvious ones,
>> and, yes, even the coincidences...something you should appreciate
>> given your own wish to make such distinctions under other
>> circumstances.
>
>That can me a interesting discussion, yes, but as we discovered futile
>as neither side can be proven unless someone admits something. This
>was a different discussion and that sort of argument will just bog it
>down.
Who cares if it gets bogged down when it's related to the topic? In
case you haven't noticed, there isn't exactly a flood of posts in
these groups these days...anything that keeps the discussion going is
worth bringing up...also, in case you haven't noticed, it's our little
exchange here that has all but killed this thread...not my offering
additional info.
>> When I actually make a mistake, I'm perfectly willing to admit
>> it...can you say the same?
>
>Yes. In a very early argument you, me and another had hinged on me
>admitting I'd made a mistake (and that being used to beat me with
>everytime I made another point.)
>
>I recall admitting mistakes a couple of other times in arguments with
>yourself. The fact that you claim that I never do is once again proof
>that you live in your own little world where you read what you want,
>not what is actually written.
Now who is giving the "vague handwaves?" You recall admitting you
were wrong and being reminded of it repeatedly and yet you don't make
even the slightest reference as to what the discussion was about or
how you were wrong.
>Of course, if I was to find a couple of examples, I'm sure you weren't
>misrepresenting the truth, just overstating again.
Go find your examples and I'll admit I was wrong...I'm not lying but I
don't have the greatest memory either...we've had many long arguments
and its possible that I've forgotten something...but, if so, I'll
guarantee those examples are few and far between.
>> Because I have never once seen you admit
>> that you were wrong
>
>Overstating or are you pretending that's the truth?
To the best of my recollection, it is the truth...feel free to prove
me wrong at any time.
>> even in cases when you argue on subjects you admit
>> you know little or nothing about (such as Marvel events).
>
>I admitted upfront that I knew little about the subject and argued
>from that position. I asked for more information when needed (which
>you answered with vague handwaves). That doesn't mean I was mistaken.
You did admit you knew little about the subject but still proceded to
argue about it as though you were an expert...something I myself would
never do...and I was not being purposely vague...what you are
referring to is a general mood or theme from the stories that is hard
to describe...if you actually read it, you would have known what I was
talking about.
>> >Because you never make mistakes.
>> I've already admitted that I make mistakes (though I didn't this
>> time)...which is more than you seem willing to do.
>
>That is a lie. Admit you are "misrepresenting" the truth again.
>
>Or I will find proof.
Go find your proof...I am genuinely interested in seeing it...if it
exists, I imagine I'm not the only one around here who would like to
see examples of you admitting you were wrong.
grinningdemon
<Paul....@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
>On Sep 27, 9:32 am, grinningdemon <grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> Ah, something else we can agree on then.
>
>And the sun came up today.
Actually, it rained here today and I never saw the sun.
>Neither is rare and hardly worth commenting on.
I would say our agreements are somewhat less common than the
sunrise...but that's just me.
We often agree on minor points...but those are typically overshadowed
by major disagreements on broader subjects...which is fine by me...I
wouldn't bother with these groups if everyone agreed with me all the
time...that would get old in a hurry.
>Unless you're trying to create an adversial relationship that doesn't
>really exist.
Get over yourself.