Why Martial Arts Superheroes Fail
badth...@yahoo.com
was pessimistic because 1) it's a female character, 2) it's a revamp of
a C-list character to begin with and most of all, 3) it's a martial
arts character and they haven't had a place in comics since the 70's.
I know some say, "Well, what about Daredevil or Elektra or even Snake
Eyes?" Daredevil is a superhero who happens to use martial arts.
Well, so do Captain America and Batman. Would you call them martial
arts characters? Of course not. And Snake Eyes isn't carrying his own
book. Daredevil became a bit of a martial arts character during the
Miller years with all the ninja madness, but that's about it.
Basically Daredevil would be Daredevil even if he had super strength or
speed with his radar ability rather than martial arts skill. It's not
his raison d etre the way it is for Shang Chi or Richard Dragon.
Given that they are, perhaps, the most accessible type of hero, why do
their books fail? It's not just bad writing because lots of lousy
books succeed. Lame characters? Ditto. I think it's because they are
*too* accessible, but in the wrong way. Spider-man is perhaps the most
popular character ever, because he's accessible in the *right* way: put
upon everyman. But martial arts characters are accessible in the wrong
way because if you really wanted, you could be them. You could have
their *super power*.
You can't be the sole survivor of an alien world with godlike powers
under the yellow sun. You can't get a ring of limitless power. You
can't be a billionaire orphan. You can't have a healing ability or
unbreakable steel skeleton. Even boxer Wildcat has become a magical
creature. But the only thing standing between you and a nice
roundhouse kick is your own laziness and that's the problem. There has
to be a *reason* why you can't be your favorite hero and you could be a
semblence of Shang Chi or Richard Dragon if you really wanted it, which
ironically makes it harder for your average comics fan to relate to
them. In fact, I believe the only reason Shang Chi lasted as long as
it did is because he was essentially a secret agent and you can't be
James Bond either. Iron Fist keeps getting chances because he's got
the magial Iron Fist and the rich orphan thing (someone's got to
examine why exchanging living parents for money is so popular). And
Way of the Rat lasted because he got his skill through magical rings.
The closest thing to a successful martial arts character now is Green
Arrow, because technically, archery is a martial art, especially with
the revamps to his origin over the years and most recently his formal
martial arts training. But he's got two saving graces 1) most people
don't think archery is a martial art and 2) he same saving grace of
Batman: rich orphan, which you cannot do.
Thoughts anyone?
Matt Deres
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> Recently someone posted inquiring the future of the new White Tiger. I
> was pessimistic because 1) it's a female character, 2) it's a revamp of
> a C-list character to begin with and most of all, 3) it's a martial
> arts character and they haven't had a place in comics since the 70's.
> Thoughts anyone?
I think you raise some good points, but I think we could examine the
situation more objectively. First, we'd need to figure out a reasonable
definition of successful, then we'd need to see what characters met the
criteria, then we'd need to see whether the percentage of martial artists in
the successful group is more or less than the percentage in the
non-successful group. Get back to us when you have that done, 'kay? ;-)
Matt
plausible prose man
> Recently someone posted inquiring the future of the new White Tiger. I
> was pessimistic because 1) it's a female character, 2) it's a revamp of
> a C-list character to begin with and most of all, 3) it's a martial
> arts character and they haven't had a place in comics since the 70's.
>
> I know some say, "Well, what about Daredevil or Elektra or even Snake
> Eyes?" Daredevil is a superhero who happens to use martial arts.
> Well, so do Captain America and Batman. Would you call them martial
> arts characters? Of course not. And Snake Eyes isn't carrying his own
> book. Daredevil became a bit of a martial arts character during the
> Miller years with all the ninja madness, but that's about it.
> Basically Daredevil would be Daredevil even if he had super strength or
> speed with his radar ability rather than martial arts skill. It's not
> his raison d etre the way it is for Shang Chi or Richard Dragon.
I don't especially want to argue about who is or isn't a martial arts
character. except perhaps to note the Batman strip has often contained
martial arts overtones; Ras al Ghul and Nanda Parbat wouldn't be out of
place in a Bruce Lee movie, to say nothing of Lady Shiva and Katana.
Huh, there's a question, did E-1 Batman's extensive martial arts
training include Klukor, the Kryptonian fighting style? I seem to
recall he and Robin traveled to Kandor at least a few times, fighting
crime alongside NW and FB, and it seems likely Bruce would have seen it
used and have an interest in learning it, but did anyone ever say so?
.
> Given that they are, perhaps, the most accessible type of hero, why do
> their books fail?
I think it's mostly, again, for the same reason Superhero comics have
dominated the market since TV really caught on. Because of budgetary
and just the absolute limits of SF, especially on TV, superheroes just
worked better in comics than in movies or TV until recently. Comic book
Hulk can leap seven leagues and crumple tanks with a single punch, and
fight the Leader and the Thing, while on TV he was limited to dead
lifting the back end of a car and tended to fight the corrupt sheriff
and his gang of bullies.
There were some popular superhero cartoons, like the richly imagined
if formulaic Space Ghost, but they were squelched and watered down into
the contemptuously dull Superfriends and the like as nervous networks
instituted Standards and Practices precluded the violence and menace so
essential to Superheroes in response to complaints from parents groups
and cultural critics about "weirdo superheroes."
Westerns and teen hijinks and funny animals, on the other hand, work
just fine on TV. Veronica night remind you of a real girl, but Tuesday
Weld was a real girl.
It's not just bad writing because lots of lousy
> books succeed. Lame characters? Ditto.
Also, I think Karate Kid and Judomaster were a lot more slapped
together in a way that was shmucky even by the standards of comics than
you give them credit, and all in all its not surprising most people
would rather watch Chuck Norris, say, or Jean Claude Van damme move and
talk, to the extent the GP wants to see martial artistry at all past
the initial chop-socky fad, to say nothing of video games which deliver
the experience of fighting in a way even movies can only sort of match.
It sure is a blast to fall screaming from the sky, deliver a triple
round house- fierce punch combination and pull out your friends spine.
I think it's because they are
> *too* accessible, but in the wrong way. Spider-man is perhaps the most
> popular character ever, because he's accessible in the *right* way: put
> upon everyman. But martial arts characters are accessible in the wrong
> way because if you really wanted, you could be them. You could have
> their *super power*.
>
> You can't be the sole survivor of an alien world with godlike powers
> under the yellow sun. You can't get a ring of limitless power. You
> can't be a billionaire orphan. You can't have a healing ability or
> unbreakable steel skeleton. Even boxer Wildcat has become a magical
> creature. But the only thing standing between you and a nice
> roundhouse kick is your own laziness and that's the problem.
I don't,t think that's the problem at all; none of that inhibits
anyone from enjoying martial arts movies or playing mortal combat or
something.
There has
> to be a *reason* why you can't be your favorite hero and you could be a
> semblence of Shang Chi or Richard Dragon if you really wanted it, which
> ironically makes it harder for your average comics fan to relate to
> them. In fact, I believe the only reason Shang Chi lasted as long as
> it did is because he was essentially a secret agent and you can't be
> James Bond either. Iron Fist keeps getting chances because he's got
> the magial Iron Fist and the rich orphan thing (someone's got to
> examine why exchanging living parents for money is so popular).
Dead parents is a good reason to go fight crime, and most superhero
stuff requires money.
And
> Way of the Rat lasted because he got his skill through magical rings.
>
> The closest thing to a successful martial arts character now is Green
> Arrow, because technically, archery is a martial art, especially with
> the revamps to his origin over the years and most recently his formal
> martial arts training. But he's got two saving graces 1) most people
> don't think archery is a martial art and 2) he same saving grace of
> Batman: rich orphan, which you cannot do.
Also Wolverine; his strip often has an Eastern setting and has him
fighting ninjas and samurai and warlords who command vast armies of
one-at-a-time fighters and going on missions of vengence; there's even
a real martial arts weapon that appears in Lone Wolf and Cub and some
of the chopsocky movies along the lines of his claws, etc.
Fallen
>Recently someone posted inquiring the future of the new White Tiger.
>
<snip>
Maybe it's as simple as 'We read comics for escapism and we want to read
about things we can't see in real life'.
Fallen.
badth...@yahoo.com
Your earth logic has no effect on me....
Nathan P. Mahney
The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the appeal
of the martial arts themselves are lost.
- Nathan P. Mahney -
http://www.thecomicnerd.com
Andrew Ryan Chang
><badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Thoughts anyone?
>
>The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
>scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
>something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
>static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the appeal
>of the martial arts themselves are lost.
What about the fight scenes in, say, "Crying Freeman", "Blade of
the Immortal", "Usagi Yojimbo", or "Shaolin Cowboy"?
--
Weird scene from the 2004 State of the Union - GOP leaders applaud terrorism:
"Key provisions of the PATRIOT act are set to expire next year."
[Democratic applause] "The terrorist threat will not expire on that
schedule." [Republican applause; Tom Delay et al stand up to clap.]
tphile
> Nathan P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>><badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>Thoughts anyone?
>>
>>The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
>>scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
>>something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
>>static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the appeal
>>of the martial arts themselves are lost.
>
>
> What about the fight scenes in, say, "Crying Freeman", "Blade of
> the Immortal", "Usagi Yojimbo", or "Shaolin Cowboy"?
>
they work because they depend on a LOT of other factors besides the
martial arts.
Martial arts has the same problem, that a musical comic or dance comic
would have.
but then would a Superman comic succeed if all it had was flying? I
doubt it.
Success also includes his other powers, used for diverse reasons
besideds crime fighting and heroic tasks, like characterization, rich
background history, good art and writing, etc
Shang Chi has been very successfull with the added elements of
adventuring and secret agents.
Modesty Blaise is another successfull martial artist
and there are plenty of Manga examples such as Lone Wolf and Cub or
Ranma 1/2
Frank Millers Elektra (when he is doing it)
I like a good fight scene too, but for it to be good it needs more than
stunts, it includes good and interesting characters and storyline.
tphile
Nathan P. Mahney
"Andrew Ryan Chang" <arc...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
news:elj41t$ou2$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> Nathan P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ><badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> Thoughts anyone?
> >
> >The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
> >scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
> >something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
> >static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the
appeal
> >of the martial arts themselves are lost.
>
> What about the fight scenes in, say, "Crying Freeman", "Blade of
> the Immortal", "Usagi Yojimbo", or "Shaolin Cowboy"?
I suppose I should have specified American comics. Yes, the Japanese are on
the whole far better at dynamics in sequential art than folks in the US, and
their fight scenes are much more kinetic and exciting. And funnily enough -
more successful.
Vic Vega
Except for a very few artists like Denis Cowan (Power Man/Iron Fist)
and Jeff Johns (Way Of The Rat), the average American artist can't draw
a credible martial arts fight scene.
In most martial arts movies each of the characters has a very
distintive and visual fighting style. One guy fights Crane Style,
another uses Monkey and so on. Jean Claude Van Damme's fight scenes
look different from Steven Segal's and neither of those guys fight
anything like Chuck Norris or Jeff Speakman (remember him?).
In comics its all undistinguished punching and kicking. It takes
something away from the uniqueness of the Martial Arts Hero when he
pretty much fights the same way every other super hero does.
Lilith
<nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Andrew Ryan Chang" <arc...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
>news:elj41t$ou2$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
>> Nathan P. Mahney <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> ><badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts anyone?
>> >
>> >The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
>> >scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
>> >something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
>> >static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the
>appeal
>> >of the martial arts themselves are lost.
>>
>> What about the fight scenes in, say, "Crying Freeman", "Blade of
>> the Immortal", "Usagi Yojimbo", or "Shaolin Cowboy"?
>
>I suppose I should have specified American comics. Yes, the Japanese are on
>the whole far better at dynamics in sequential art than folks in the US, and
>their fight scenes are much more kinetic and exciting. And funnily enough -
>more successful.
They probably take up more space for the fight scenes in order to get
that kinetic effect. To me that becomes repetitive after one issue.
The kewl stuff is the fake stuff they have on the movie screen. :-)
--
Lilith
badth...@yahoo.com
I looked forward to whenever Badger would show up in Nexus to finally
see him done right. Frank Miller goes without saying and Neal Adams
also got it right. I couldn't tell you if Scott McDaniel does it right
because you can barely tell what's going on.
> In most martial arts movies each of the characters has a very
> distintive and visual fighting style. One guy fights Crane Style,
> another uses Monkey and so on. Jean Claude Van Damme's fight scenes
> look different from Steven Segal's and neither of those guys fight
> anything like Chuck Norris or Jeff Speakman (remember him?).
>
Who could forget The Perfect Weapon!?!
> In comics its all undistinguished punching and kicking. It takes
> something away from the uniqueness of the Martial Arts Hero when he
> pretty much fights the same way every other super hero does.
This only matters to people who can actually tell what a sidekick looks
like and yes what is served up to pass as martial arts is indeed sad,
but that's hardly the problem. I mean, the majority of Shang-Chi's run
was absolute crap as far as accuracy goes, but he ran longer than
literally all the others combined. Paul Gulacy couldn't draw sidekick
if his life depended on it. Same for Mike Zeck, but they were behind
some of the best runs on the character. On the other hand, at the very
end of Master of Kung Fu, literally for its last three issues, it got
William Johnson who draws very accurate martial arts. He also did
Daredevil #197-200 which was the tail end of DD's serious martial arts
phase. That man can draw a roundhouse kick.
Vic Vega
I forgot all about that guy! I was a fan of Johnson's. I wonder what
ever happened to him.
I think with Shang-Chi, he had a great supporting cast as well a
villians that played up to the characters strengths.
Also don't forget about gimmicks. Cool characters have to have
gimmicks.
Batman has a cave, a car, a plane, batarangs and a motorcycle.
Moonknight has a chopper and those moon shriuken(sp) things.
Daredevil has his billy club.
Shang Chi and Richard Dragon just have round house kicks, however that
might also be an issue.
If you're heroic gimmick is the same pair of nunchuks that you could
buy at the local head shop, you're losing some of the romance of the
thing, IMHO.
arnold kim
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thoughts anyone?
I think one thing that people haven't brought up that should be addressed is
the popularity in the US of manga like Dragon Ball Z and Naruto. I suppose
you could say that it comes as an offshoot of the popularity of the anime,
which is probably a better medium for the kineticism of the fight scenes.
But I do think that there's a better sense of energy of fight scenes even in
manga than in most comics and is something that could be applied to martial
arts comics in the US.
You also say that martial arts characters don't work because they're too
accessible. Well, that doesn't have to be the case without abandoning the
"martial arts" aspect of the character. Not every martial artist has to be
like Bruce Lee. I mean, this is comics- an arena where people can phase
through walls, run past the speed of light, or shoot beams out of their
eyes. Why not tap into the fertile ground of martial arts fantasy? Whose
to say that we can't have characters who have such mastery of metaphysical
skills that they can run across treetops, glide through the air, or hurl Ki
blasts at their opponents? The only difference between these and other
superpowers is that they are acquired by training (in the comics) as opposed
to being born with them or coming by them through a freak accident.
In worlds already populated by magic and Norse Gods, including the eastern
equivalent won't be a stretch.
Arnold Kim
Slickpuppy
> > Maybe it's as simple as 'We read comics for escapism and we want to read
> > about things we can't see in real life'.
> >
> > Fallen.
>
> Your earth logic has no effect on me....
Next issue: The mind-numbing menace of...THE OVERTHINKER! :>
--
Kevin J. Mulder
Slick...@xecu.net
"Pull for da horizon boys, it's better dan nuttin' !"
- Jimmy Durrante
plausible prose man
No, because you can't see Jackie Chan stuff in real life, either. On
the other hand, imagine a mid-70's Marvel Comic featuring Jackie Chan ,
with maybe Roy Thomas writing and Herb Trimpe's pencils, and ask
yourself if you'd likely bother with more than two issues, or just as
likely skip it all together.
Now imagine the even worse version DC would give you, or the one-off
that doesn't even have Jackie Chan going for it.
Wouldn't you rather watch the movie after all?
Again, it comes back to Superheroes work better in comics than they do
in movies or TV, while for most other things the reverse is true.
Mikel Midnight
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Except for a very few artists like Denis Cowan (Power Man/Iron Fist)
> > and Jeff Johns (Way Of The Rat), the average American artist can't draw
> > a credible martial arts fight scene.
> >
> Steve Rude also knows how to draw martial arts, having studied himself.
> I looked forward to whenever Badger would show up in Nexus to finally
> see him done right. Frank Miller goes without saying and Neal Adams
> also got it right. I couldn't tell you if Scott McDaniel does it right
> because you can barely tell what's going on.
Frank Miller's art always looked more balletic than martial arts to me.
I would add 80's John Byrne to the list, even though he's there because
he copied poses from 70's martial arts magazines. ;)
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mikel Midnight
"You will die, sir, either on the gallows or from the
pox." (John Montagu, fourth Earl of Sandwich)
"That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles
or your mistress." (John Wilkes, sometime friend of his
and rakish member of the aristocracy)
blak...@blaklion.best.vwh.net
_______________________________________http://blaklion.best.vwh.net/comics.html
Andrew Ryan Chang
> No, because you can't see Jackie Chan stuff in real life, either. On
>the other hand, imagine a mid-70's Marvel Comic featuring Jackie Chan ,
>with maybe Roy Thomas writing and Herb Trimpe's pencils, and ask
>yourself if you'd likely bother with more than two issues, or just as
>likely skip it all together.
>
> Now imagine the even worse version DC would give you, or the one-off
>that doesn't even have Jackie Chan going for it.
>
>Wouldn't you rather watch the movie after all?
The "Mister Blank" miniseries had a terrific Jackie
Chan-style action sequence in the first issue.
--
"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to
explain to us what the exit strategy is,"
-- George Bush, April 9/1999
Ken from Chicago
People equate "martial arts" with Asian martial arts?
All non-powered superheroes use some form of martial art, even if its the
ever popular fisticuffs or "ecclectic" (ala Daredevil). Batman, Robin,
Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Huntress, Mister Miracle, Wildcat, Arsenal, Human
Target, Vigilante, The Question, Punisher, Night Thrasher, Lone Ranger,
Tonto, Green Hornet, Kato, and possible the great grandfather of nonpowered
superheroes
Zorro.
Moreover most, if not all superheroes tend to use some form of martial art,
even if it's the basic punch, slap, claw, kick or the ever popular grab
someTHING and hit someONE with it and the counterpart, grab someONE and hit
someTHING with them.
However if you are talking about all the tropes going along with the Asian
martial arts style, ask yourself this: How many superhero comics are about
Asians in general? who are not martial artists, monks and / or mystics? or
techno geeks?
-- Ken from Chicago
badth...@yahoo.com
martial arts comic and I mentioned Wildcat who was a professional
boxer.
> All non-powered superheroes use some form of martial art, even if its the
> ever popular fisticuffs or "ecclectic" (ala Daredevil). Batman, Robin,
> Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Huntress, Mister Miracle, Wildcat, Arsenal, Human
> Target, Vigilante, The Question, Punisher, Night Thrasher, Lone Ranger,
> Tonto, Green Hornet, Kato, and possible the great grandfather of nonpowered
> superheroes
>
They use them, but it's not the primary focus of their character.
> Zorro.
>
Good call. Swordplay is a martial art. But he's not really a comic
book character though. You might as well bring up the Three Musketeers
or King Arthur and his Knights.
> Moreover most, if not all superheroes tend to use some form of martial art,
> even if it's the basic punch, slap, claw, kick or the ever popular grab
> someTHING and hit someONE with it and the counterpart, grab someONE and hit
> someTHING with them.
>
No, a martial art is a studied discipline, not just random punches or
kicks. It's a way of self-betterment through combat that improves
oneself even without the combat. It's often accompanied by a
philosophy.
> However if you are talking about all the tropes going along with the Asian
> martial arts style, ask yourself this: How many superhero comics are about
> Asians in general? who are not martial artists, monks and / or mystics? or
> techno geeks?
>
Feel free to do that thread. In light of the new Atom, and the new
emphasis place on multi-culturalism in comics, it has a place.
Ken from Chicago
<badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1165988533....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>> <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
>> People equate "martial arts" with Asian martial arts?
>>
> Usually, which is why I pointed out that Green Arrow is technically a
> martial arts comic and I mentioned Wildcat who was a professional
> boxer.
>
>> All non-powered superheroes use some form of martial art, even if its the
>> ever popular fisticuffs or "ecclectic" (ala Daredevil). Batman, Robin,
>> Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Huntress, Mister Miracle, Wildcat, Arsenal,
>> Human
>> Target, Vigilante, The Question, Punisher, Night Thrasher, Lone Ranger,
>> Tonto, Green Hornet, Kato, and possible the great grandfather of
>> nonpowered
>> superheroes
>>
> They use them, but it's not the primary focus of their character.
Ah, a superhero comic that's less about superheroics and more about the
study, training and practice of martial arts? Maybe that's the problem, like
a comic more about technological inventions rather than superheroism.
>> Zorro.
>>
> Good call. Swordplay is a martial art. But he's not really a comic
> book character though. You might as well bring up the Three Musketeers
> or King Arthur and his Knights.
Ah, but Zorro originated a lot of tropes of superheroes, masks,
mild-mannered public identity, vigilantism, etc.
>> Moreover most, if not all superheroes tend to use some form of martial
>> art,
>> even if it's the basic punch, slap, claw, kick or the ever popular grab
>> someTHING and hit someONE with it and the counterpart, grab someONE and
>> hit
>> someTHING with them.
>>
> No, a martial art is a studied discipline, not just random punches or
> kicks. It's a way of self-betterment through combat that improves
> oneself even without the combat. It's often accompanied by a
> philosophy.
If I want to read about philosophy over action I'd re-read the DUNE
hexology. Sure, there are some comic book readers interested in philosophy,
but how many?
>> However if you are talking about all the tropes going along with the
>> Asian
>> martial arts style, ask yourself this: How many superhero comics are
>> about
>> Asians in general? who are not martial artists, monks and / or mystics?
>> or
>> techno geeks?
>>
> Feel free to do that thread. In light of the new Atom, and the new
> emphasis place on multi-culturalism in comics, it has a place.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Vic Vega" <Mikejo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1165849796.8...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
He's THE PERFECT WEAPON
http://videodetective.com/default.asp?frame=http://videodetective.com/home.asp?PublishedID=3363
> In comics its all undistinguished punching and kicking. It takes
> something away from the uniqueness of the Martial Arts Hero when he
> pretty much fights the same way every other super hero does.
Kinda like pencillers on FLASH comic books who don't know how to draw
someone in mid stride. Running is NOT diving or ice-skating even tho so many
people draw Flash in a pose that looks like he's about to dive or is skating
as opposed to a freeze frame of someone in mid stride--arms are NEVER
EXTENDED when in the *middle* of running. Try miming running and you never
ever get to the point where are arms are fully extended.
Also it would help if the character leaned forward while running to
emphasize the speed as opposed to having the runner's torso ramrod straight
vertically as if he's merely jogging.
Lastly stopping when running fast isn't you just stopping pumping your legs,
like if you were jogging, but looks different:
Behold the classic 2-dimensional rotoscoped PRINCE OF PERSIA:
(Note around 1.10 seconds in where the 2d Prince reverses course.)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tXzPC0v2us0
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
>
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
<snip>
>> some of the best runs on the character. On the other hand, at the very
>> end of Master of Kung Fu, literally for its last three issues, it got
>> William Johnson who draws very accurate martial arts. He also did
>> Daredevil #197-200 which was the tail end of DD's serious martial arts
>> phase. That man can draw a roundhouse kick.
>
> I forgot all about that guy! I was a fan of Johnson's. I wonder what
> ever happened to him.
>
> I think with Shang-Chi, he had a great supporting cast as well a
> villians that played up to the characters strengths.
>
> Also don't forget about gimmicks. Cool characters have to have
> gimmicks.
>
> Batman has a cave, a car, a plane, batarangs and a motorcycle.
>
> Moonknight has a chopper and those moon shriuken(sp) things.
>
> Daredevil has his billy club.
>
> Shang Chi and Richard Dragon just have round house kicks, however that
> might also be an issue.
>
> If you're heroic gimmick is the same pair of nunchuks that you could
> buy at the local head shop, you're losing some of the romance of the
> thing, IMHO.
While I always favored the quarterstaff in martial arts movies (because it's
so versatile and has great range), I think Bruce Lee proved nunchuks can be
pretty exciting on their own. Of course, that was live action not still
shots, and nunchuks have to be seen to be believed.
As far as gimmicks and "coolness", I think ninjas were the very definition
of ubercool martial artists in the 1980s.
Plus, what the frell happened to MOTION LINES?!! Those were great for
showing motion in still shots but everyone seems to draw only freeze frames
with no motion lines. Frank Miller drew motion lines OR showed "open
shutter" shots of Daredevil in a SERIES of faded freeze frames so you could
see the motion. Brilliant.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Nathan P. Mahney" <nma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:457d3f58$0$9774$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Manga uses motion lines to the max.
-- Ken from Chicago (who just flashback the 1980s)
Ken from Chicago
"Fallen" <fal...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1C3fh.14936$HV6...@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
You see martial artists fighting in real life?
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Slickpuppy" <Slick...@xecu.net> wrote in message
news:457ddf0e$0$27424$a146...@news.xecu.net...
And put some clothes on 'im. It's December!
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"plausible prose man" <George...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1165893392....@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Superheroes work best in animation, good animation ala JLU, anime or BTAS.
-- Ken from Chicago
badth...@yahoo.com
Ken from Chicago wrote:
> <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1165988533....@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Ken from Chicago wrote:
> >> <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> People equate "martial arts" with Asian martial arts?
> >>
> > Usually, which is why I pointed out that Green Arrow is technically a
> > martial arts comic and I mentioned Wildcat who was a professional
> > boxer.
> >
> >> All non-powered superheroes use some form of martial art, even if its the
> >> ever popular fisticuffs or "ecclectic" (ala Daredevil). Batman, Robin,
> >> Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Huntress, Mister Miracle, Wildcat, Arsenal,
> >> Human
> >> Target, Vigilante, The Question, Punisher, Night Thrasher, Lone Ranger,
> >> Tonto, Green Hornet, Kato, and possible the great grandfather of
> >> nonpowered
> >> superheroes
> >>
> > They use them, but it's not the primary focus of their character.
>
> Ah, a superhero comic that's less about superheroics and more about the
> study, training and practice of martial arts? Maybe that's the problem, like
> a comic more about technological inventions rather than superheroism.
>
something. It's not really martial arts without that spiritual
component and pretty much every martial arts character looses when his
spirit/ki/chi isn't in harmony (even the Wolverine mini-series had
that). Maybe that puts people off. I know if you showed me a hero who
would stumble when he didn't feel the power of Jesus/Allah/L Ron
Hubbard within him, I sure as hell wouldn't want to read it.
> >> Zorro.
> >>
> > Good call. Swordplay is a martial art. But he's not really a comic
> > book character though. You might as well bring up the Three Musketeers
> > or King Arthur and his Knights.
>
> Ah, but Zorro originated a lot of tropes of superheroes, masks,
> mild-mannered public identity, vigilantism, etc.
>
I thought the Scarlet Pimpernel did that.
> >> Moreover most, if not all superheroes tend to use some form of martial
> >> art,
> >> even if it's the basic punch, slap, claw, kick or the ever popular grab
> >> someTHING and hit someONE with it and the counterpart, grab someONE and
> >> hit
> >> someTHING with them.
> >>
> > No, a martial art is a studied discipline, not just random punches or
> > kicks. It's a way of self-betterment through combat that improves
> > oneself even without the combat. It's often accompanied by a
> > philosophy.
>
> If I want to read about philosophy over action I'd re-read the DUNE
> hexology. Sure, there are some comic book readers interested in philosophy,
> but how many?
>
Doubtful if any, but you equated any fighting with the martial arts and
that's just not so.
mimf
He could if he wanted. They do have martial arts exhibitions.
Fallen
Yes.
Fallen.
John
> badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
snip
> There has
>> to be a *reason* why you can't be your favorite hero and you could be a
>> semblence of Shang Chi or Richard Dragon if you really wanted it, which
>> ironically makes it harder for your average comics fan to relate to
>> them. In fact, I believe the only reason Shang Chi lasted as long as
>> it did is because he was essentially a secret agent and you can't be
>> James Bond either. Iron Fist keeps getting chances because he's got
>> the magial Iron Fist and the rich orphan thing (someone's got to
>> examine why exchanging living parents for money is so popular).
>
> stuff requires money.
>
It's a lot more straightforward than that. Dead parents + Inheritence = I
Can Do What I Want.
Childrens' fantasy time.
plausible prose man
I'm not at all sure the inheritence is that important a part of it;
there are a lot more orphans than rich orphans in children's fantasy.
Spiderman's missing both parents and an uncle, and his poverty is a big
part of his appeal. Neither Superman's biological parents or his
(usually dead) foster parents left him any money, I think Daredevil's
an orphan, to say nothing of, say, Pippi Longstocking or Huck Finn or
Tom Sawyer or Bambi or The Lion King. The Baudelaires have a fortune,
but no real access to it, and while Harry Potter's got a fortune at
Gringold's, he only sort of, and even then not reallý, lives like a
kid with a fortune and no one to tell him how to spend it.
plausible prose man
I'm not at all sure the inheritence is that important a part of it;
plausible prose man
While certainly the potential exists in that medium, I'd say its so
far mostly gone unrealized compared to comic books themselves, thanks
to artificial restraints imposed in response to groups like Action for
Children's Television, an undemanding audience mainly comprising
younger children, and the sheer costs involved. Imagine the huge piles
of cash you'd need to get an army of in-betweeners capable of doing
justice to Neal Adams or Alex Ross, or even Wally Wood or Jack Kirby or
Will Eisner.
> good animation ala JLU, anime or BTAS.
At 12 or fewer FPS, BTAS and its spinoffs aren't really good
animation, at least not qua animation. You might also consider
something like Sin City or Sky Captain, which are mostly animated.
Certainly you can imagine Miller and Rodreguiez just kiling Harry
Knowles with a nerd-gasm in the form of a fully realized DKR, with John
Cleese as Alfred and Nick Nolte as Ollie and maybe Mickey Rourke as
Bruce and Michael Madsen as Clark, but in both movies the human actors
had a lot of visible difficulty getting their lines out convincingly,
presumably as a result of often reading their dialogue by themselves on
empty green stages in situations their naturalistic training left them
unprepared for.
Eminence
<George...@aol.com> wrote:
>Gringold's, he only sort of, and even then not reallı, lives like a
>kid with a fortune and no one to tell him how to spend it.
True to an extent, except that Superman and Spider-Man have "great
power", which allows them to offset the money thing a bit in terms of
the power fantasy (plus, Supes can squeeze coal until it becomes
diamonds [instead of coal dust!]). There's also less inherited wealth
in the Silver Age MU than in the Golden Age DCU; consider the number
of millionaire playboys who became masked adventurers: Batman,
Sandman, Star-Spangled Kid, Green Arrow, Hourman (yes, Rex Tyler is
more akin to Tony Stark, but work with me here), probably some that
I'm leaving out -- point is, there's a *lot* of money in the Golden
Age DCU. It wasn't until the Silver Age that DC's heroes got more
mundane jobs like forensic scientists, test pilots, museum curators,
and physics professors (noble professions, but not at the top of the
list for funding superheroics).
Eminence
_______________
Usenet: Global Village of the Damned
Peter Bruells
I'm not at all sure the inheritence is that important a part of it;
> there are a lot more orphans than rich orphans in children's fantasy.
> Spiderman's missing both parents and an uncle, and his poverty is a big
> part of his appeal. Neither Superman's biological parents or his
> (usually dead) foster parents left him any money,
> I think Daredevil's an orphan, to say nothing of, say, Pippi
> Longstocking
Pippi Longstocking is not an orphan, her father Efraim is alive and
well, travelling the seas with his crew and ruling an island in the
South Seas. Besides that, she's fabulously richt, keeps a chest full
of gold coins at her house.
Scott Eiler
> There has
> to be a *reason* why you can't be your favorite hero and you could be a
> semblence of Shang Chi or Richard Dragon if you really wanted it, which
> ironically makes it harder for your average comics fan to relate to
> them.
I think it's just the comic book equivalent of inflation. Your hero can
*start out* as you with maximum human powers, but then there's always
something better and more extreme.
> In fact, I believe the only reason Shang Chi lasted as long as
> it did is because he was essentially a secret agent and you can't be
> James Bond either. Iron Fist keeps getting chances because he's got
> the magial Iron Fist and the rich orphan thing (someone's got to
> examine why exchanging living parents for money is so popular). And
> Way of the Rat lasted because he got his skill through magical rings.
Three cases in point.
--
(signed) Scott Eiler 8{D> -------- http://www.eilertech.com/ ----
Perhaps I shall learn to walk in the dust of their wheels,
But to be false to myself - how shall I expose myself?
"Let us drink and enjoy the wine you have brought,
"For my path is already laid out and cannot be altered."
- Tao Qian (Tao Yuan-Ming), AD 365-427.
Shawn H
: <badth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:1165735841.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...
: >
: > Thoughts anyone?
: The main attraction for martial arts based fiction is, for me, the fight
: scenes. I want to see a good fight scene, something I can marvel at,
: something fast and kinetic and exciting. Comics in general are much too
: static as a medium to portray that effectively, and thus much of the appeal
: of the martial arts themselves are lost.
And all you need to sell those is good art. Byrne used to do very complex
sequences of moves in the original Iron Fist solo. I don't know if many
others ever have, though.
Shawn H.
Bort
badth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The closest thing to a successful martial arts character now is Green
> Arrow, because technically, archery is a martial art, especially with
> the revamps to his origin over the years and most recently his formal
> martial arts training. But he's got two saving graces 1) most people
> don't think archery is a martial art and 2) he same saving grace of
> Batman: rich orphan, which you cannot do.
>
Plus no one could really create the trick arrows he uses...
On a serious note, good post, i agree.
:)