did just touching the chain confuse the Ringwraith in Woody End?

[Chris Hoelscher]

in Three's Company - when Frodo touches the ring's chain (but not the ring
itself), the Rider, who had been sniffing/searching, sits up and leaves

was this coincidence?
did the mere fact of Frodo touching the chain frighten the ringwraith?
confuse him, alert him enough to get backup? or merely to confirm that Frodo
was on the move?

i never knew what to make of this passage ...

thanks for any insight

Chris Hoelscher

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:03:13 -0400, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> in Three's Company - when Frodo touches the ring's chain (but not the ring
> itself), the Rider, who had been sniffing/searching, sits up and leaves
>
> was this coincidence?
> did the mere fact of Frodo touching the chain frighten the ringwraith?
> confuse him, alert him enough to get backup? or merely to confirm that Frodo
> was on the move?
>
> i never knew what to make of this passage ...

I always thought it was the approach of Gildor's company of Elves
that frightened him off, but re-reading the passage now I see that
they must have been a long way off at the time of this incident.

Perhaps the Rider was summoned by another Rider? "The Hunt for the
Ring" might tell us, but I don't have /Unfinished Tales/ handy just
now.

(Your Shift key seems to be broken.)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
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Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

[Morgoth's Curse]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 06:01:26 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:03:13 -0400, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>>
>> in Three's Company - when Frodo touches the ring's chain (but not the ring
>> itself), the Rider, who had been sniffing/searching, sits up and leaves
>>
>> was this coincidence?
>> did the mere fact of Frodo touching the chain frighten the ringwraith?
>> confuse him, alert him enough to get backup? or merely to confirm that Frodo
>> was on the move?
>>
>> i never knew what to make of this passage ...
>
>I always thought it was the approach of Gildor's company of Elves
>that frightened him off, but re-reading the passage now I see that
>they must have been a long way off at the time of this incident.
>
>Perhaps the Rider was summoned by another Rider? "The Hunt for the
>Ring" might tell us, but I don't have /Unfinished Tales/ handy just
>now.

It was still late afternoon when the first Black Rider
encountered Frodo and his companions. In Unfinished Tales and
elsewhere, Tolkien notes that the powers of the Black Riders were
greatest at night and diminished during the day. It is probable,
therefore, that the Black Rider was aware of the presence of Frodo and
his companions, but did not sense the proximity of the Ring itself.
Frodo observed that the Rider seemed to ride off into the woods ahead;
possibly he had decided to wait until full darkness to investigate
further. It is true that Frodo, Pippin and Sam were in an isolated
area of the Shire, but the Black Rider could not know that. If the
hobbits raised the alarm, it would compromise his mission. Secrecy
was still one his most potent weapons.

It is unlikely that the chain itself possessed any special
virtue. It was almost certainly forged in The Shire or by a dwarf and
therefore would not possess any qualities that Elves might be able to
imbue it with. Remember that Bilbo never knew that his ring was, in
fact, the Ruling Ring until the Council of Elrond. Up to that point,
it was simply a useful magical artifact which was precious to him.

Morgoth's Curse

[derek]

On Apr 19, 7:01 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:03:13 -0400, Chris Hoelscher wrote:
>
> > in Three's Company - when Frodo touches the ring's chain (but not the ring
> > itself), the Rider, who had been sniffing/searching, sits up and leaves
>
> > was this coincidence?
> > did the mere fact of Frodo touching the chain frighten the ringwraith?
> > confuse him, alert him enough to get backup? or merely to confirm that Frodo
> > was on the move?
>
> > i never knew what to make of this passage ...
>
> I always thought it was the approach of Gildor's company of Elves
> that frightened him off, but re-reading the passage now I see that
> they must have been a long way off at the time of this incident.
>
> Perhaps the Rider was summoned by another Rider? "The Hunt for the
> Ring" might tell us, but I don't have /Unfinished Tales/ handy just
> now.

I've always had some trouble with this section. Like Stan, I always
thought it was the Elves' approach - but if he could sense them,
surely he should have been able to sense the Ring. It really seems
more as if he's called away, but by whom and to what I can't imagine.

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2012-04-19, derek <de...@pointerstop.ca> wrote:
> I've always had some trouble with this section. Like Stan, I always

To generalize a bit, I've always had trouble with the entire
Ringwraiths-in-the-Shire story. It seems really hard to find any
convincing internal explanation of why they didn't just grab Frodo
on one of the many opportunities they had. Then on Weathertop, the
idea than Aragorn was enough to fend off five wraiths is pretty far
fetched - why mess around with morgul knives, instead of just having
four of them hold down/kill Aragorn while the Witch-King takes Frodo?

[John W Kennedy]

Gandalf tells Frodo that putting on the Ring made him visible to the
wraiths. That being the case, someone who is /not/ wearing the Ring can
be assumed to be invisible to them, wholly or partially. That makes a
seasoned warrior who knows what they are nothing to toy with.

--
John W Kennedy
Read the remains of Shakespeare's lost play, now annotated!
http://www.SKenSoftware.com/Double%20Falshood

[Julian Bradfield]

On 2012-04-19, John W Kennedy <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2012-04-19 14:07:37 +0000, Julian Bradfield said:
>> on one of the many opportunities they had. Then on Weathertop, the
>> idea than Aragorn was enough to fend off five wraiths is pretty far
>> fetched - why mess around with morgul knives, instead of just having
>> four of them hold down/kill Aragorn while the Witch-King takes Frodo?

> Gandalf tells Frodo that putting on the Ring made him visible to the
> wraiths. That being the case, someone who is /not/ wearing the Ring can
> be assumed to be invisible to them, wholly or partially. That makes a
> seasoned warrior who knows what they are nothing to toy with.

That could work I suppose, but then I wonder how they captured and
interrogated various humans on their way to the Shire, if they only
had vague senses of human?

[derek]

On Apr 19, 1:00 pm, Julian Bradfield <j...@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

Well, I think you have to assume they're going to have at least as
much difficulty seeing us as we have seeing them - so I guess a naked
Aragorn would be pretty intimidating! But I think you're really
suggesting that more than just sight would be involved, that we would
be insubstantial to them - yet there's enough substance to the wraiths
in our world to at least hang a robe on. Between even a tenuous
grasp, utter terror, and outright sorcery, I doubt it's that difficult
to capture and interrogate ordinary humans. My problem with the
encounters in the Shire, Bree, or even on Weathertop, is that in no
case does either a single wraith, or many, show even a tiny portion
of the power they appear to have later in Gondor.

[Sandman]

In article <2710p716n50fo31dd...@4ax.com>,

Huh? Gandalf confirmed it to him in The Shadow of the Past, just after
Gandalf has read out the ring verse:

He paused, and then said slowly in a deep voice: ‘This is the
Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One Ring
that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power.
He greatly desires it – but he must not get it.’

While the full complication of this might not have been readily
obvious to Frodo at that time, I think it's safe to say that he didn't
consider it just a useful magical artifact in the following chapter.

--
Sandman[.net]

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 10:54:01 -0400, John W Kennedy wrote:
> Gandalf tells Frodo that putting on the Ring made him visible to the
> wraiths. That being the case, someone who is /not/ wearing the Ring can
> be assumed to be invisible to them, wholly or partially.
>

Yet the Nazgūl had no trouble seeing and conversing with Hamfast
Gamgee and Farmer Maggot. (IIRC, "The Hunt for the Ring" also has
them seeing and conversing with Wormtongue.)

I've always thought that our world is shadowy but visible to the
wraiths, just as it appears to Sam when he is wearing the Ring in
Cirith Ungol.

[Stan Brown]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 09:46:54 +0200, Sandman wrote:
> In article <2710p716n50fo31dd...@4ax.com>,
> Morgoth's Curse <morgoths...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Remember that Bilbo never knew that his ring was, in
> > fact, the Ruling Ring until the Council of Elrond. Up to that point,
> > it was simply a useful magical artifact which was precious to him.
>
> Huh? Gandalf confirmed it to him in The Shadow of the Past, just after
> Gandalf has read out the ring verse:
>

> He paused, and then said slowly in a deep voice: ?This is the

> Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One Ring
> that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power.

> He greatly desires it ? but he must not get it.?

I believe Gandalf was talking with Frodo, not Bilbo. In that
Chapter, Bilbo is already long gone.

[Sandman]

In article <MPG.29fb0d3e7...@news.individual.net>,

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> > > Remember that Bilbo never knew that his ring was, in
> > > fact, the Ruling Ring until the Council of Elrond. Up to that point,
> > > it was simply a useful magical artifact which was precious to him.
> >
> > Huh? Gandalf confirmed it to him in The Shadow of the Past, just after
> > Gandalf has read out the ring verse:
> >
> > He paused, and then said slowly in a deep voice: ?This is the
> > Master-ring, the One Ring to rule them all. This is the One Ring
> > that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power.
> > He greatly desires it ? but he must not get it.?
>
> I believe Gandalf was talking with Frodo, not Bilbo. In that
> Chapter, Bilbo is already long gone.

My apologies, I read Frodo in the above paragraph. :)


--
Sandman[.net]

[Morgoth's Curse]

And since Frodo inherited the Ring from Bilbo, he also received
the chain that Bilbo had kept it on. To the best of our knowledge,
Bilbo never told anyone about the ring during his visit at Rivendell
while he was returning to the Shire in 2942 so he either obtained the
chain from the treasure of the Lonely Mountain or else in The Shire.

Morgoth's Curse

[Julian Bradfield]

Another point brought up by this is that we are told Sauron's power
was growing, particularly in the last year of the War of the Ring.
I've always understood this to include his mental power, as well just
brute military and economic power.
One has to ask, why? Is it just the Power of Positive Thinking?

[Steve Morrison]

On Thu, 19 Apr 2012 22:55:38 +0200, Raven wrote:

> In one account of the Hunt for the Ring in UT it is stated that one
> Khamûl was the one that overtook Frodo twice, and that while he was the
> most ready after the Black Captain himself to perceive the presence of
> the Ring, he was also the one whose power was most confused and
> diminished by daylight. This would then explain why he was baffled the
> first time, during the afternoon, but was thwarted only by the timely
> appearance of Gildor's company the second time, in the early night
> under the stars. Perhaps Tolkien wrote that bit to reconcile the
> supposed great powers of perception displayed by the Ringwraiths with
> the wraith's failure to notice the Ring almost under its nose.

The /Reader's Companion/ helps here. It quotes a version of "The
Hunt for the Ring" from a text designated "Marquette MSS 4/2/36",
according to which Khamûl, on September 24,

picks up the Stock Road, and overtakes Frodo at approaches to
Woody End -- probably by accident; he becomes uneasily aware
of the Ring, but is hesitant and uncertain because of the
bright sun. He turns into the woods and waits for night.

BTW this same manuscript says that "The Hunt for the Ring" was
"drawn up by Gandalf, Elrond, and told to Frodo in Rivendell".

[Paul S. Person]

My memory of the book is fading (time to schedule another reading!),
but I believe most of this is from the book (some is definitely
dramatized, at least, in the film):
1) The Nazgul hate water.
2) Therefore, their robes were impregnated with hydrocarbons, to keep
them dry.
3) Therefore, their robes were flammable (hydrocarbons burn; well,
some do, anyway).
4) So attacking them with a torch was quite enough to both distract
them from their goal and convince them to run away: they had no
interest in going up in flames.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."