why Dol Guldur?

[chrishoelscher]

just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose southern Miorkwood as a secondary base of operations? was Dol Guldur (at the time) a staging ground for Angmar? was it chosen because of its proximity to Lorien, due to his jealosy/fear of Galhadriel?(but was she there yet?) or .... was it the subconscious pull of the nearby Ring that attracted Sauron to the location?

Other than Gondor - where was the major threat? Arnor? would Carn Dum or Mt Gundabad been a better choice as a permanent outpost? from which sorties could be executed against the north? (i was invisioning a larger host than was was in Angmar)

sure - this is meaningless - but i enjoy other perspectives .....

chris hoelscher

[Bill O'Meally]

Perhaps he sought out the secrecy provided by Greenwood the Great due
to his still weakened state after taking shape again following his
defeat by the Last Alliance. Though they were aware of the evil that
dwelt there, even the White Council did not know the Necromancer was
indeed Sauron until Gandalf infiltrated Dol Guldur.
--
Bill
"Wise Fool" -- Gandalf, _The Two Towers_
(The Wise will remove 'se' to reach me. The Foolish will not)

[Matthew Woodcraft]

chrishoelscher <chrisho...@insightbb.com> writes:

> just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose southern
> Miorkwood as a secondary base of operations? was Dol Guldur (at the
> time) a staging ground for Angmar? was it chosen because of its
> proximity to Lorien, due to his jealosy/fear of Galhadriel?(but was
> she there yet?) or .... was it the subconscious pull of the nearby
> Ring that attracted Sauron to the location?

It could also be a conscious plan to search for the ring.

-M-

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:12:03 -0500, chrishoelscher wrote:
>
> just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose southern Miorkwood as a secondary base of operations? was Dol Guldur (at the time) a staging ground for Angmar? was it chosen because of its proximity to Lorien, due to his jealosy/fear of Galhadriel?(but was she there yet?) or .... was it the subconscious pull of the nearby Ring that attracted Sauron to the location?
>
> Other than Gondor - where was the major threat? Arnor? would Carn Dum or Mt Gundabad been a better choice as a permanent outpost? from which sorties could be executed against the north? (i was invisioning a larger host than was was in Angmar)

It could have been any or all of those. I suspect also he didn't
want to get too far from Mordor, because he was planning to reoccupy
it eventually.


--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
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Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm

[Rast]

Matthew Woodcraft wrote...

The Silmarilion says,

"[Saruman] set a watch upon the Gladden Fields; but soon he discovered
that the servants of Dol Guldur were searching all the ways of the
River in that region. Then he perceived that Sauron also had learned of
the manner of Isildur's end..."

[fred]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>
> It could have been any or all of those. I suspect also he didn't
> want to get too far from Mordor, because he was planning to reoccupy
> it eventually.

Was Dol Guldur anything special to Sauron during the Second Age?

--

[Stan Brown]

I believe not. It didn't enter history until around T.A. 1100,
according to the Tale of Years.

[Paul S. Person]

On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:12:03 -0500, chrishoelscher

It's been awhile, but /The History of The Hobbit/ suggests that,
initially, the map drawn for /TH/ was basically the map we know as
being that of Beleriand. Perhaps Dol Goldur was originally intended to
be a location associated with Sauron in Beleriand.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."

[Bill O'Meally]

On 2012-09-03 10:49:59 -0500, Stan Brown said:

> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 18:55:08 +1000, fred wrote:
>>
>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It could have been any or all of those. I suspect also he didn't
>>> want to get too far from Mordor, because he was planning to reoccupy
>>> it eventually.
>>
>> Was Dol Guldur anything special to Sauron during the Second Age?
>
> I believe not. It didn't enter history until around T.A. 1100,
> according to the Tale of Years.

Is there any mention as to who actually built the fortress? It seems to
have already been standing when Sauron occupied it in the Third Age.
Greenwood the Great, and presumptively Dol Guldur as well, was a
wholesome place until it fell under Sauron's corruption and became
Mirkwood, so I suspect it was built by Men and fell to evil use akin to
Minas Morgul.

[Odysseus]

In article <MPG.2aad4694c...@news.individual.net>,

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:12:03 -0500, chrishoelscher wrote:
> >
> > just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose southern Miorkwood
> > as a secondary base of operations? was Dol Guldur (at the time) a staging
> > ground for Angmar? was it chosen because of its proximity to Lorien, due to
> > his jealosy/fear of Galhadriel?(but was she there yet?) or ....

(piggybacking)

I believe Galadriel had indeed been based there for a very long time.

> > was it the subconscious pull of the nearby Ring that attracted
> > Sauron to the location?
> >
> > Other than Gondor - where was the major threat? Arnor? would Carn Dum or Mt
> > Gundabad been a better choice as a permanent outpost? from which sorties
> > could be executed against the north? (i was invisioning a larger host than
> > was was in Angmar)

I don't have the impression he ever intended it to be the centre of a
large-scale expansionary military operation, rather a temporary base
while Mordor was (or might be) still guarded. There weren't any major
military powers left in the North, and Dol Guldur wasn't within easy
striking distance of any important settlements, except maybe those of
the Wood-elves.

> It could have been any or all of those. I suspect also he didn't
> want to get too far from Mordor, because he was planning to reoccupy
> it eventually.

Agreed, and IIRC Dol Guldur isn't far from the Anduin, which might have
been especially important as suggested by the quotation Rast posted
elsewhere in this thread. Nor is it far from the Misty Mountains, whose
Orc population presumably provided the broodstock for his later armies.

--
Odysseus

[Michael Cole]

Odysseus was thinking very hard :

> In article <MPG.2aad4694c...@news.individual.net>,
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:12:03 -0500, chrishoelscher wrote:
>>>
>>> just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose southern Miorkwood
>>> as a secondary base of operations? was Dol Guldur (at the time) a staging
>>> ground for Angmar? was it chosen because of its proximity to Lorien, due to
>>> his jealosy/fear of Galhadriel?(but was she there yet?) or ....
>
> (piggybacking)
>
> I believe Galadriel had indeed been based there for a very long time.

Only since the Balrog was revealed. Prior to that, Lorien was ruled by
Amroth. Galadriel was only asked back after Amroth left, which I
believe means that Dol Guldur was occupied by Sauron before Galadriel
mored to Lorien.

--
Michael Cole

[Stan Brown]

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:47:04 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote:
> Is there any mention as to who actually built the fortress? It seems to
> have already been standing when Sauron occupied it in the Third Age.

Do you know where it is mentioned before Sauron occupied it? I
haven't found any earlier mention.

[Bill O'Meally]

On 2012-09-06 05:50:12 -0500, Stan Brown said:

> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:47:04 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote:
>> Is there any mention as to who actually built the fortress? It seems to
>> have already been standing when Sauron occupied it in the Third Age.
>
> Do you know where it is mentioned before Sauron occupied it? I
> haven't found any earlier mention.

Nor have I. Could it be that Sauron built it? He needed the power of
the Ring to build Barad Dur. He no longer had that. Add that he would
have still been in a very weakened state. And you'd think such activity
would have drawn the attention of both Thranduil and Galadriel.

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 20:14:20 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
> On 2012-09-06 05:50:12 -0500, Stan Brown said:
>
> > On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 20:47:04 -0500, Bill O'Meally wrote:
> >> Is there any mention as to who actually built the fortress? It seems to
> >> have already been standing when Sauron occupied it in the Third Age.
> >
> > Do you know where it is mentioned before Sauron occupied it? I
> > haven't found any earlier mention.
>
> Nor have I. Could it be that Sauron built it? He needed the power of
> the Ring to build Barad Dur.

One of the neatest tricks in the whole LotR is that Barad-dur's
"foundations ... were made with the power of the Ring". I call this
a neat trick because the foundations were apparently the last part of
the building!

He started building Barad-d�r around SA 1000, and then around SA 1600
"Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-
d�r." That was one magic dingus!

> He no longer had that. Add that he would
> have still been in a very weakened state. And you'd think such activity
> would have drawn the attention of both Thranduil and Galadriel.



--

[O. Sharp]

Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> writes, in part:

> One of the neatest tricks in the whole LotR is that Barad-dur's
> "foundations ... were made with the power of the Ring". I call this
> a neat trick because the foundations were apparently the last part of
> the building!
>

> He started building Barad-d?r around SA 1000, and then around SA 1600

> "Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-

> d?r." That was one magic dingus!

And like so many other topics, we've covered this one before
(http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/baraddur.htm):

Pre-fabricated modular housing.

Sauron developed the black and heinous art of building mobile homes.

It's worth observing that, once Sauron had the foundations set up, he
could also rebuild the Barad-dur with incredible speed. The Tower was
"levelled to the ground" at the end of the Second Age (_Silmarillion_
p. 294 hardback); yet, according to the Tale of Years, Sauron began
rebuilding the Barad-dur in TA 2951 - and it was evidently finished by
the time of the War of the Ring (TA 3018), only some 67 years later!
More evidence in favor of the Barad-dur being a prefab, don't you think?

Perhaps the most convincing evidence, however, comes from none other than
the Mouth of Sauron (_Return of the King_ p. 166 hardback) when he implies
that just having to _live_ in the Barad-dur constitutes an unimaginable
torture. It's also worth noting that, on the same page, he notes that he
himself has plans to move to Isengard at the first available
opportunity. :)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@panix.com Yep. I run my own Joke Recycling Service [tm].

[Stan Brown]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:21:06 +0200, Raven wrote:
> Another explanation is that Sauron began to build a stronghold around SA
> 1000 at that spur of Ered Lithui.
>

You have to get around the fact that the Tale of Years specifically
says it was the Barad-d�r.

[Troels Forchhammer]

In message
<news:MPG.2aad5c565...@news.eternal-september.org> Rast
<ra...@yahoo.com> spoke these staves:

>
> Matthew Woodcraft wrote...
>>
>> chrishoelscher <chrisho...@insightbb.com> writes:
>>>
>>> just curious - did Tolkien ever explain why Sauron chose
>>> southern Miorkwood as a secondary base of operations?

[...]

>>
>> It could also be a conscious plan to search for the ring.
>
> The Silmarilion says,
>
> "[Saruman] set a watch upon the Gladden Fields; but soon he
> discovered that the servants of Dol Guldur were searching all the
> ways of the River in that region. Then he perceived that Sauron
> also had learned of the manner of Isildur's end..."

I think that this is the most likely story-internal explanation. I do
not doubt, however, that this is post-rationalization on Tolkien's
part, having in /The Hobbit/ placed Sauron in Mirkwood, or Taur-nu-
Fuin, he needed an explanation, and things worked out nicely to
explain both Gollum having the Master Ring and Sauron establishing
himself in Dol Guldur.

In message <news:r0m948pf4u7okamcp...@4ax.com>
Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> spoke these staves:

|
| It's been awhile, but /The History of The Hobbit/ suggests that,
| initially, the map drawn for /TH/ was basically the map we know as
| being that of Beleriand. Perhaps Dol Goldur was originally
| intended to be a location associated with Sauron in Beleriand.

Precisely. In the early drafts for /The Hobbit/, it is quite clear
that the Necromance is Th� who had been driven away by L�thien and
Beren -- /after/ Gandalf had been in his dungeons and received the
map: though there is little doubt that Gandalf (at that point called
Bladorthin) initially was truly a human wizard, he also seems to have
at least more than a mere conjurer of cheap tricks.

The thing is that the forest south of Angband was called Mirkwood in
English, /Taur-nu-Fuin/ in Elvish, and in /The Hobbit/ this was
imported with little concern for the overall geography and history,
only to present a continuity-problem when Tolkien started writing
/The Lord of the Ring/ (but one which he solved expertly by creating
a couple of new ages and an extra six thousand years of history . .
.)

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

People are self-centered
to a nauseous degree.
They will keep on about themselves
while I'm explaining me.
- Piet Hein, /The Egocentrics/

[Paul S. Person]

On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:27:44 +0200, Troels Forchhammer
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

>In message <news:r0m948pf4u7okamcp...@4ax.com>
>Paul S. Person <pspe...@ix.netscom.com.invalid> spoke these staves:
>|
>| It's been awhile, but /The History of The Hobbit/ suggests that,
>| initially, the map drawn for /TH/ was basically the map we know as
>| being that of Beleriand. Perhaps Dol Goldur was originally
>| intended to be a location associated with Sauron in Beleriand.
>
>Precisely. In the early drafts for /The Hobbit/, it is quite clear

>that the Necromance is Thû who had been driven away by Lúthien and

>Beren -- /after/ Gandalf had been in his dungeons and received the
>map: though there is little doubt that Gandalf (at that point called
>Bladorthin) initially was truly a human wizard, he also seems to have
>at least more than a mere conjurer of cheap tricks.

I think that my point (as you may have picked up) is that this may be
the answer to the question "why dol Guldur?" which is the subject of
this thread: Sauron is in Dol Guldur in /TH/ because, in its earliest
form, the Necromancer was Thû who was in a location associated with
Thû in the earlier legends and because Thû became Sauron as the
legendarium developed.

This is, of course, a story-external explanation.

>The thing is that the forest south of Angband was called Mirkwood in
>English, /Taur-nu-Fuin/ in Elvish, and in /The Hobbit/ this was
>imported with little concern for the overall geography and history,
>only to present a continuity-problem when Tolkien started writing
>/The Lord of the Ring/ (but one which he solved expertly by creating
>a couple of new ages and an extra six thousand years of history . .
>.)

IIRC, the illustration JRRT created for Beren and an Elf whose name I
certainly /should/ remember but don't off-hand in the Mirkwood in
Beleriand was used in /TH/ for the Mirkwood in /TH/ (without the Beren
and the Elf).

In other words, JRRT clearly felt that, if not the same place, then
they at least /looked/ an awful lot alike, even after /TH/ was done
and the time for illustrating it was at hand.

And then, of course, he greatly expanded the time-line and so moved
/TH/ to the east of Beleriand-that-was, as you noted.

[Odysseus]

In article <k28qt3$qia$1...@dont-email.me>,

Michael Cole <inv...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Odysseus was thinking very hard :

<snip>

> > I believe Galadriel had indeed been based [in Lórien] for a very

> > long time.
>
> Only since the Balrog was revealed. Prior to that, Lorien was ruled by
> Amroth. Galadriel was only asked back after Amroth left, which I
> believe means that Dol Guldur was occupied by Sauron before Galadriel
> mored to Lorien.

Sorry, I didn't remember any of that. Is the story of Amroth in one of
the Appendices? Where was Galadriel living previously?

--
Odysseus

[Michael Cole]

Odysseus laid this down on his screen :

> In article <k28qt3$qia$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael Cole <inv...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Odysseus was thinking very hard :
>
> <snip>
>

>>> I believe Galadriel had indeed been based [in Lï¿œrien] for a very

>>> long time.
>>
>> Only since the Balrog was revealed. Prior to that, Lorien was ruled by
>> Amroth. Galadriel was only asked back after Amroth left, which I
>> believe means that Dol Guldur was occupied by Sauron before Galadriel
>> mored to Lorien.
>
> Sorry, I didn't remember any of that. Is the story of Amroth in one of
> the Appendices? Where was Galadriel living previously?

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - "Lothlï¿œrien", pgs.
329-32

Unfinished Tales - "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth
King of Lorien," pgs. 310-13

As for Galadriel, its uncertain, but probably either in Belfalas or
Imladris

--
Michael Cole