Sauron the Big eye
Louis Schiano
After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
Michael Richard Siminski
dus...@panix.com (Louis Schiano) writes:
>After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
>did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
Sure he did. Remember how he personally battled the forces of the Last
Alliance on the slopes of Oroduin? How Gil-galad and Elendil killed his body?
How Isildur cut the One from his *finger*?
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| MICHAEL SIMINSKI | "We may sail West, as far |
| mr...@uow.edu.au | as we will, yet come no |
| Dept of Mechanical Engineering | nearer to our dreams. |
| University of Wollongong | For these are far away, |
| New South Wales | and that is why they are |
| Australia | so beautiful." |
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
O. Sharp
Michael Richard Siminski (mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au) replies:
: dus...@panix.com (Louis Schiano) writes:
: >After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
: >did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
: Sure he did. Remember how he personally battled the forces of the Last
: Alliance on the slopes of Oroduin? How Gil-galad and Elendil killed his
: body? How Isildur cut the One from his *finger*?
Maybe it was just a big eyelash? :)
...But you're quite right; Sauron was indeed more than just a big
eyeball. _Letters_ #246 specifies that Sauron's form at the end of the
Third Age "was that of a man of more than human stature, but not
gigantic"; Gollum also noted that, after the unfortunate incident with
Isildur, Sauron only had nine fingers (though I can't seem to locate the
pesky reference at the moment). He was also physically a hot guy, as Isildur
noted in his transcribed message in _Fellowship_ p. 266 hardback: "The
Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet
burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed".
...Though it can hardly be considered a photograph of the Big Hot
Bastard, it's worth noting that _JRRT: Artist & Illustrator_ has a couple
of illustrations of Sauron's last big moment on Middle-earth: his huge
dark form leaning over the mountains just after the Ring's destruction
but just before being blown to the winds. Plates #181 and #182 show the
Big Nasty Hot Guy's Last Hurrah.
It's worth looking at. :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com Of course, all the references to Sauron refer to the
Eye in singular: _Sil._ p. 293, "...the _Eye_ of
Sauron few... could endure", for example. So it appears
he didn't have stereoptic vision. Could be a drawback,
I suppose... Hey! What if he were nearsighted? :)
Louis Schiano
From: dus...@panix.com (Louis Schiano)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 00:40:24 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
--
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.
cochran
O. Sharp wrote:
(Snip)
> ...Though it can hardly be considered a photograph of the Big Hot
> Bastard, it's worth noting that _JRRT: Artist & Illustrator_ has a couple
> of illustrations of Sauron's last big moment on Middle-earth: his huge
> dark form leaning over the mountains just after the Ring's destruction
> but just before being blown to the winds. Plates #181 and #182 show the
> Big Nasty Hot Guy's Last Hurrah.
>
> It's worth looking at. :)
OK, exactly where do we look for these pictures?
Tindomerel
Carlos Miguel Batista
Louis Schiano wrote:
>
> After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
> did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
No! The eye was his heraldic symbol.
Remember that Gollum says to Gandalf that Sauron "has only 4 fingers in his hand"
(since Isuldur "removed" one with the ring...) "but that's all he needssssss." ;)
---
"You've only three rights: hear, see and shut up" - In a prison in Chile
"Disloyal is the one that says goodbye when the road starts darkening", JRRT
===========================================================
Support the Blue Ribbon Campaign for free speech online ()
e-mail: cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt /\
Michael Richard Siminski
o...@netcom.com (O. Sharp) writes:
>Michael Richard Siminski (mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au) replies:
>: Sure he did. Remember how he personally battled the forces of the Last
>: Alliance on the slopes of Oroduin? How Gil-galad and Elendil killed his
>: body? How Isildur cut the One from his *finger*?
>Maybe it was just a big eyelash? :)
(SNIP)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>o...@netcom.com Of course, all the references to Sauron refer to the
> Eye in singular: _Sil._ p. 293, "...the _Eye_ of
> Sauron few... could endure", for example. So it appears
> he didn't have stereoptic vision. Could be a drawback,
> I suppose... Hey! What if he were nearsighted? :)
You mean he just used a telescope? Hahaha :)
O. Sharp
cochran (alex...@frontier.net) sees my post and asks:
: > [snipp] it's worth noting that _JRRT: Artist & Illustrator_ has a couple
: > of illustrations of Sauron's last big moment on Middle-earth: his huge
: > dark form leaning over the mountains just after the Ring's destruction
: > but just before being blown to the winds. Plates #181 and #182 show the
: > Big Nasty Hot Guy's Last Hurrah.
: OK, exactly where do we look for these pictures?
Uh... in the book. :) The full title is _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist &
Illustrator_, and it was written by our two good friends, Wayne G.
Hammond and Christina Scull. The ISBN number is 0-395-74816-X, and it
costs about $40.00, at least if you're using that pesky American
currency. :)
If you're asking for an _online_ source, where the photos can be
downloaded, I don't know of one... which is probably as well, because
it'd be one of those copyright-violation thingies. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com -soon to be known as "O..Sharp@0.idn.nl", if those
fools at IDN haven't fixed their news software
yet. :(
BThompson
o...@netcom.com (O. Sharp) tried his hand at sales:
>
>The full title is _J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist &
>Illustrator_, and it was written by our two good friends, Wayne G.
>Hammond and Christina Scull. The ISBN number is 0-395-74816-X, and it
>costs about $40.00, at least if you're using that pesky American
>currency. :)
>
For you smart shoppers out there in the US, this book can be purchased at
a number of the larger bookstore chains (e.g., Barnes and Noble, Borders)
for a 20% discount. Most should have this book in stock, although
exactly _where_ the individual bookstore decides to display it is
anyone's guess. It _may_ be in the Art section rather than the
SciFi-Fantasy section with the rest of the Tolkien-related titles. BTW,
I highly recommend the Hammond and Scull book (i.e., if the
recommendation from someone you've never met before/know anything about
means anything to you). :-)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>o...@netcom.com -soon to be known as "O..Sharp@0.idn.nl", if those
> fools at IDN haven't fixed their news software
> yet. :(
It's enough to make your nostrils flare, eh? :^)
Regards,
Bill
-
Standard disclaimer: The nose knows.
O. Sharp
BThompson (will...@lamar.colostate.edu) observes:
: I highly recommend the Hammond and Scull book (i.e., if the
: means anything to you). :-)
I, too, recommend _JRRT: Artist & Illustrator_ highly. Of course, I
_could_ just be Mr. Thompson posting under a different name. :)
: -
: Standard disclaimer: The nose knows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com "And suddenly he felt the Nose. There was a nose in
the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had
become aware of his scent. A fierce eager will was
there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he
felt it, searching for him..."
-_Fellowship_ p. 417 hardback
"'Sir,' Kovalev said with dignity, 'don't you realize
that you are my own nose?'
"The nose looked at the major and frowned slightly.
"'You're mistaken, sir. I'm all on my own.
Moreover, there couldn't possibly have been close
relations between us. Judging by your dress you must be
employed by the Senate, or possibly by the Ministry of
Justice, whereas my field is science.'
"And having said this, the nose turned away and
resumed his prayers."
-Nikolai Gogol, _The Nose_
Michael Schmeing
Louis Schiano wrote:
>
>
> After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
> did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
(One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
with.
If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
an elf (or hobitt or other).
Michael
--
Michael Schmeing Michael Schmeing
Richterskamp 41 oder bei Teschner
48527 Nordhorn Rauhehorst 49
Tel.: 05921-13928 26127 Oldenburg
e-mail:
Michael....@Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE
Julio Oron Casta~o
Michael Schmeing (mic...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE) wrote:
> Louis Schiano wrote:
> >
> >
> > After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
> > did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
> Surely he did: Gollum said, that he had only four fingers at one hand
> (One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
> If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
> with.
I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that the one
who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
> If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
> an elf (or hobitt or other).
See you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ @ @@ @ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@ @ Julio
@@ @ @ @@ @ @ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @ @ Oron
@@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @@@@@ Casta~o
@@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@ @@ !!! SCOOOOOBY!!
***********************i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es**********************
Jose M. Sanz
Julio Oron Casta~o (i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es) wrote:
: Michael Schmeing (mic...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE) wrote:
: > Louis Schiano wrote:
: > >
: > >
: > > After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
: > > did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
: > Surely he did: Gollum said, that he had only four fingers at one hand
: > (One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
: > If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
: > with.
: I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that the one
: who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
:
: > If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
: > an elf (or hobitt or other).
I am pretty sure that Isildur had to cut off Sauron's finger to get The One.
However, generally, when you (at least I) compare body parts, you do it with
respect to something familiar like your own. Now golum was originally some
kind of ancester to the hobbits, and hobbits have five fingers.
I'm not saying that Sauron didn't have body parts, but Tolkien was not
explicit on purpose. Who is to say what is the form of pure Evil. I might
have a picture of Sauron that many people doesn't like, so Tolkien didn't want
to spoil the effect.
--Jose.
: See you.
:
:
Robert Shirley
ba...@rohan.sdsu.edu (barry) wrote:
>Louis Schiano (Louis....@0.idn.nl) wrote:
>: After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
>: did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
>In Letters, #246, Tolkien discusses at length Frodo's `failure' at the
>Cracks of Doom, and possible alternative outcomes. He says:
>"Also the contest [with Aragorn & the palantir] took place at a distance,
>and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical
>and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually
>physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The
>form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not
>gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power
>(as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength
>of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance."
>I also noticed, and forgive me if someone has already pointed this out,
>that on the previous page he speculates that if Frodo with the Ring had to
>face the Eight Nazgul, that they would have been servile. A footnote explains
>that he mentions Eight and not Nine because "The Witch-king had been reduced
>to impotence." A very interesting letter.
>-Kate
AH, but does he not also qualify that they would not "truly" obeyed
him because it was Sauron who held their rings and thus held their
wills under his control. He also states that they would not be
deceived as to who the true owner of the Ring was - Sauron; they
would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of
Frodo - to buy time for Sauron to show up in person.
(back to lurk mode)
O. Sharp
Jose M. Sanz (js...@ccs.neu.edu) wrote:
: I am pretty sure that Isildur had to cut off Sauron's finger to get The One.
[snippp]
Yes. No question. _Fellowship_ p. 256 hardback quotes Elrond: "...Sauron
himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the
hilt-shard of his father's sword..." ("his father's sword" being Narsil
the sword of Elendil - soon to be reforged as Anduril, the sword of Aragorn).
: I'm not saying that Sauron didn't have body parts, but Tolkien was not
: explicit on purpose. Who is to say what is the form of pure Evil. I might
: have a picture of Sauron that many people doesn't like, so Tolkien
: didn't want to spoil the effect.
JRRT _did_ give out a certain amount of concrete information, though. An
earlier post on this thread seems to be expiring off of most servers,
so I'll take the liberty here of quoting myself for a moment [Message-ID
<ohhDr6...@netcom.com>]:
: ...But you're quite right; Sauron was indeed more than just a big
: eyeball. _Letters_ #246 specifies that Sauron's form at the end of the
: Third Age "was that of a man of more than human stature, but not
: gigantic"; Gollum also noted that, after the unfortunate incident with
: Isildur, Sauron only had nine fingers (though I can't seem to locate the
: pesky reference at the moment). He was also physically a hot guy, as
: Isildur noted in his transcribed message in _Fellowship_ p. 266
: hardback: "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was
: black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed".
:
: ...Though it can hardly be considered a photograph of the Big Hot
: Bastard, it's worth noting that _JRRT: Artist & Illustrator_ has a couple
: of illustrations of Sauron's last big moment on Middle-earth: his huge
: dark form leaning over the mountains just after the Ring's destruction
: but just before being blown to the winds. Plates #181 and #182 show the
: Big Nasty Hot Guy's Last Hurrah.
Hope this helps!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
o...@netcom.com Sorry for the repetition. Sorry for the
repetition. :)
Robert Shirley
From: shi...@cts.com (Robert Shirley)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 14:03:00 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services
ba...@rohan.sdsu.edu (barry) wrote:
>Louis Schiano (Louis....@0.idn.nl) wrote:
(back to lurk mode)
--
Julio Oron Casta~o
From: i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es (Julio Oron Casta~o)
Date: 15 May 1996 08:22:16 GMT
Organization: Universidad de Oviedo
Michael Schmeing (mic...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE) wrote:
> Louis Schiano wrote:
> >
> >
> > After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
> > did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
> Surely he did: Gollum said, that he had only four fingers at one hand
> (One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
> If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
> with.
I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that the one
who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
> If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
> an elf (or hobitt or other).
See you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ @ @@ @ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@ @ Julio
@@ @ @ @@ @ @ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @ @ Oron
@@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @@@@@ Casta~o
@@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@ @@ !!! SCOOOOOBY!!
***********************i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es**********************
@#$%!?!
: : I'm not saying that Sauron didn't have body parts, but Tolkien was not
: : explicit on purpose. Who is to say what is the form of pure Evil. I might
Come to California. See our governor.
: : have a picture of Sauron that many people doesn't like, so Tolkien
: : didn't want to spoil the effect.
--
The Queen who loves, the Queen of life, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
the Queen who straits, the Queen of strife;| Cupertino, California
with gasp of death or gift of breath | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
she brings the choice of birth or knife. | I don't use no smileys
Keith Barkley
In article <smryanDr...@netcom.com>
smr...@netcom.com (@#$%!?!) writes:
> Come to California. See our governor.
gee, you wouldn't happen to be a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT would
you?
Actually I think that Pete is more like Saruman than
Sauron. He got corrupted by the power. Of course, try
moving from CA to AZ like I did, then you know what
conservatives are like!
Keith Barkley
R23...@email.sps.mot.com
---
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you half as well as you
deserve.
Bilbo Baggins
@#$%!?!
From: smr...@netcom.com (@#$%!?!)
Organization: The Programmer formerly known as S M Ryan
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 04:45:21 GMT
: : I'm not saying that Sauron didn't have body parts, but Tolkien was not
: : explicit on purpose. Who is to say what is the form of pure Evil. I
might
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Come to California. See our governor.
: : have a picture of Sauron that many people doesn't like, so Tolkien
: : didn't want to spoil the effect.
--
The Queen who loves, the Queen of life, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
the Queen who straits, the Queen of strife;| Cupertino, California
with gasp of death or gift of breath | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
she brings the choice of birth or knife. | I don't use no smileys
Burrito
Apparently, he had a sort'of hand that is spoken of,
probably just a metaphor, it could be real, heh, oh well.
Turgon
Julio Oron Casta~o wrote:
> I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that the one
> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
I don't :-)
Sauon lost his middle finger int he end of the second age when Isildur cut it off
with the remains of Narsil.
--
"One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them" - Microsoft/JRRT ;)
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." - JRRT
cochran
Didn't he lose his ring finger and not his middle finger?
Tindomerel
scott
In article <31987F...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Michael
Schmeing <mic...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE> wrote:
> Louis Schiano wrote:
> >
> >
> > After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
> > did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
> Surely he did: Gollum said, that he had only four fingers at one hand
> (One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
> If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
> with.
>
> If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
> an elf (or hobitt or other).
Here's a question: what exactly was the Red Eye that constantly searched
o'er the land for the Ringbearer? Was it a magical manifestation? A
physical device? An extension of Sauron? I was wondering if this issue
had been addressed before. Since I don't check this newsgroup regularly,
e-mail would be more helpful.
Wond'ring Aloud,
Scott
Matthew L Weber
Keith Barkley (r23...@email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: In article <smryanDr...@netcom.com>
: smr...@netcom.com (@#$%!?!) writes:
: > Come to California. See our governor.
: gee, you wouldn't happen to be a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT would
: you?
Well, I'm not, and I think Pete Wilson is scum.
The words "liberal" and "Democrat" are not only not synonymous, they
can often be applied to the same people that their supposed antipodes
("conservative" and "Republican") are used to describe.
Gotta go, my paradigm's boiling over...
--
Matthew L. Weber
Library Assistant
University of Michigan Music Library
I put for a general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless
desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death. And the cause
of this is not always that a man hopes for a more intensive delight, that
he has already attained to; or that he cannot be content with a moderate
power; but because he cannot assure the power and means to live well,
which he has at present, without the acquisition of more.
Thomas Hobbes, _Leviathan_, 1651
Keith Barkley
In article <4nij4b$1...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>
mwe...@umich.edu (Matthew L Weber) writes:
> The words "liberal" and "Democrat" are not only not synonymous, they
> can often be applied to the same people that their supposed antipodes
> ("conservative" and "Republican") are used to describe.
I didn't mean to ruffle feathers, I was just trying to
sound like the curch lady. In any case this belongs to
alt.I.hate.pete.wilson; If it exists I think I might join
in!
Guillermo Alvarez
I remember reading in ROtK that Sauron's abode was in a hall at the very
top of Barad-Dur, and the hall had a large window, and there was a burst
of red light coming from that window when Sauron looked over the land.
So it seems that there was a physical component in the Red Eye.
Guillermo
Guillermo Alvarez
This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
Guillermo
In article <4ng15a$q...@gondor.sdsu.edu>, ba...@rohan.sdsu.edu (barry) writes:
|> Right you are. This letter, oft quoted in this newsgroup, covers
|> a nice range of interesting topics. [#246]
|> Discussed are the question of Frodo's `failure', heroically or morally,
|> Arwen's exchange of her E-ticket to Valinor, Bilbo's place on the boat,
|> the character of Sam, Gollum's repentance, Frodo with Ring vs. Sauron
|> and/or 8 Nazgul, Gandalf vs. Sauron, Galadriel, and other juicy tidbits.
|> -Kate
Turgon
From: Turgon <cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:21:26 +0200
Organization: Computer Science Department on Lisbon Science Faculty
Julio Oron Casta~o wrote:
> I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that the one
> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
I don't :-)
Sauon lost his middle finger int he end of the second age when Isildur cut
it off
with the remains of Narsil.
--
"One OS to rule them all, One OS to find them,
One OS to bring them all and in the darkness bind them" - Microsoft/JRRT ;)
"Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens." - JRRT
Support the Blue Ribbon Campaign for free speech online ()
e-mail: cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt /\
Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews
Guillermo Alvarez (galv...@cs.ucsd.edu) wrote:
&This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
&that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
&answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
&already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
&Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
&But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
&with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
&carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
Arwen was one of the Peredhil, or Half-Elven, and thus at some point in
her life had to decide whether to be counted among the elves or among
humans. Elrond's children did not have to make their decision until
their father departed. At that point, it was either go to Aman with
Elrond and be an elf, or remain in Middle-earth and be human.
Pat
--
Patrick G. Matthews or Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews?
I hope you can tell the difference :)
Phil Morris
> I don,t know if sauron has only for fingers or not but I think that
> the one
> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
>
Both lost fingers - Sauron lost his when Isildur cut the Ring from his
finger, and Frodo lost his when Gollum bit it off while Frodo was wearing
the ring.
Phil
davecolton on BIX
Could someone e-mail me a copy of this letter from Tolkein,
or direct me to where it exists on the Web (a book cite
is less helpful but would still be some help).
Turgon
cochran wrote:
>
> Turgon wrote:
> > I don't :-)
> > Sauon lost his middle finger int he end of the second age when Isildur cut it off
> > with the remains of Narsil.
Well... I really don't know in what finger did he use the ring... :-)
Bruce Alderman
On 17 May 1996 23:50:56 GMT,
galv...@cs.ucsd.edu (Guillermo Alvarez) wrote:
> This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he
> but she answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my
> people have already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the
> choice of Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
> But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking
> Gimli with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf,
> who never carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen
> do the same?
Here's the quote from Arwen:
"Nay, dear lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that
would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
will or I nil: the loss and the silence."
It's not so much that there were no ships (but see below), but rather
that no ship would take *her* to Valinor. She had made her choice and
renounced the Twilight; she could not unmake her choice.
OTOH, the last entry in the Tale of Years says:
"Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and
so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf."
So it seems that there really *were* no more ships; Legolas needed to
*build* one.
--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Bruce Alderman b...@southwind.net
.sig file under construction
--
Bruce Alderman
On Fri, 17 May 1996 06:46:20 -0700,
cochran <alex...@frontier.net> wrote:
> Turgon wrote:
> > Sauon lost his middle finger int he end of the second age when
> > Isildur cut it off with the remains of Narsil.
> Didn't he lose his ring finger and not his middle finger?
Does Tolkien ever say that Isildur cut off just one finger? The phrase
I remember is he "cut the Ring from Sauron's hand." But how much of the
hand did he have to cut off with it?
ArGimilzor
What a good question. If we are going to tote up Tolkien inconsistencies
we can be here for days. Please remember he wrote this stuff over a
period of 40 years and each chapter had (often) a dozen versions some
slightly different some completely different and to save money and paper
during the war years he erased portions already written and rewrote on the
same page. Even his boy Chris who compiled all the pieces after his dad
died took the easy way out and gives us all the different versions or at
least the major ones in his books. So if HE can't figure it out. . . If
JRRT had a computer word pross program some of this could be shortstopped.
But maybe not. JRRT couldn't type.
Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews
ArGimilzor (argim...@aol.com) wrote:
&What a good question. If we are going to tote up Tolkien inconsistencies
&we can be here for days. Please remember he wrote this stuff over a
&period of 40 years
LotR was written over a considerably shorter period than that. Much of
the Silmarillion material, though, was tinkered with for decades, often
with no definitive version resulting.
&and each chapter had (often) a dozen versions some slightly different
&some completely different and to save money and paper during the war
&years he erased portions already written and rewrote on the same page.
&Even his boy Chris who compiled all the pieces after his dad died took
&the easy way out and gives us all the different versions or at least the
&major ones in his books. So if HE can't figure it out. . .
CJRT did **not** take the easy way out. The HoME books have not included
every single extant draft of material. CJRT has made editorial decisions
on which pieces to include and which to exclude. Besides, HoME is meant
to elucidate the development of JRRT's writings; as such, it is
*appropriate* that the major alternatives are published and commented on.
The purpose of HoME is *not* to arrive at a standard text, after all.
&If JRRT had a computer word pross program some of this could be
&shortstopped. But maybe not. JRRT couldn't type.
JRRT may not have been a *good* typist, but he did type several essays
and parts of Sil and LotR himself, I suppose to save some money...
ArGimilzor
Appreciate your thought. But I own all the tolkien books including the
ones Chris edited and I stand by my opinion. That's what makes a horse
race, yes?
Guillermo Alvarez
Thanks for the quotes. Not having the books with me, I thought the
passage said that the lack of ships was the reason.
OTOH it seems that building a ship was not impossible for the average
elf, since Legolas built his without Cirdan...
Guillermo
In article <2YonxQcr...@southwind.net>, b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
|> Here's the quote from Arwen:
|> "Nay, dear lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that
|> would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
|> will or I nil: the loss and the silence."
|>
|> It's not so much that there were no ships (but see below), but rather
|> that no ship would take *her* to Valinor. She had made her choice and
|> renounced the Twilight; she could not unmake her choice.
|>
|> OTOH, the last entry in the Tale of Years says:
|> "Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and
|> so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf."
|>
|> So it seems that there really *were* no more ships; Legolas needed to
|> *build* one.
Gryffyd
I think that the passage is not inconsistent, if memory serves the line is
"There is no ship left that would *take* me", and that implies that while
ships remain that can cross the Sea, since Arwen has renounced her chance
for immortality, there would be no Elf willing or able to sail with her,
unless it had been Elrond himself. And I believe Gimli had to get a
special dispensation from the Valar to be able to travel with Legolas.
Please do not offer my god a peanut.
Michael Richard Siminski
rose...@futures.wharton.upenn.edu (Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews) writes:
>ArGimilzor (argim...@aol.com) wrote:
(SNIP)
>> If JRRT had a computer word pross program some of this could be
>> shortstopped. But maybe not. JRRT couldn't type.
Tolkien *could* type. He typed out the whole LoTR himself *twice* (something
that could teach you to type by itself) as well as many of his stories
relating to the First Age. Indeed in later life Tolkien typed out almost
everything he wrote. He even wrote letters to people on his typewriter. In
one or two of these letters he apologised for using the typewriter, saying
that he found it much easier than writing by hand. His comments make one think
that he would've loved working on a PC with a laser printer.
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| MICHAEL SIMINSKI | "We may sail West, as far |
| mr...@uow.edu.au | as we will, yet come no |
| Dept of Mechanical Engineering | nearer to our dreams. |
| University of Wollongong | For these are far away, |
| New South Wales | and that is why they are |
| Australia | so beautiful." |
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Chrysanne Poole
Guillermo Alvarez (galv...@cs.ucsd.edu) wrote:
}
} This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
} that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
} answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
} already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
} Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
}
} But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
} with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
} carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
I don't have my books here either, but I think she says something to the
effect that there were no ships left that *would bear her* to Valinor.
She gave up her place on the ships when she decided to become mortal. My
interpretation was that any ship that tried to bear her to Valinor would
never find it and that's why no ship would give her passage.
If I remember correctly, Gimli was allowed to go because of his unusually
strong friendship with the elves (esp Legolas and Galadrial) and because
he was part of the fellowship.
--
Chrysanne E. Poole - Dept. of Environmental Engineering
University of Central Florida
*******************************************************
http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~cep49594/home.html
cep4...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu cpo...@ao.net
"When species are lost, no change in price or
technology will bring them back." -Dennis Meadows
Richard
>> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
>
Frodo also lost a finger when Smeagol bit it of, dropping the ring into
the crack of doom.
atay...@uoguelph.ca
In article <4nq44a$e...@news.ao.net>,
cpo...@eola.ao.net (Chrysanne Poole) wrote:
>} This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
>} that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
>} answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
>} already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
>} Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
>}
>} But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
>} with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
>} carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
>
>I don't have my books here either, but I think she says something to the
>effect that there were no ships left that *would bear her* to Valinor.
>She gave up her place on the ships when she decided to become mortal. My
>interpretation was that any ship that tried to bear her to Valinor would
>never find it and that's why no ship would give her passage.
Agreed... What I think she means by "Mine is the choice of Luthien" is that
she's already *chosen* to be counted among humanity, in order to remain with
Aragorn forever (like Luthien for Beren). Even assuming she could find a ship
to take her to Valinor, she would be renouncing that choice and, in effect,
divorcing Aragorn forever. She made her choice when she agreed to marry him,
and she won't renege now. As I recall, Aragorn's suggestion to her was rather
facetious anyway: if you're really unhappy about dying now, you could always
renounce our union and return to Valinor...
--------------------
Alex Taylor
University of Guelph
az...@imap1.asu.edu
Michael Richard Siminski (mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au) wrote:
: Tolkien *could* type. He typed out the whole LoTR himself *twice*
: his stories relating to the First Age. Indeed in later life Tolkien
: typed out almost everything he wrote. He even wrote letters to people
: on his typewriter. In one or two of these letters he apologised for
: using the typewriter, saying that he found it much easier than writing
: by hand. His comments make one think that he would've loved working on
: a PC with a laser printer.
Especially with a bunch of cool fonts.
--
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
"The road goes ever on and on."
- Bilbo Baggins, as quoted in _The C++ Programming Language._
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
8^)
Bruce Alderman
On Mon, 20 May 96 19:00:37 GMT,
atay...@uoguelph.ca wrote:
> Agreed... What I think she means by "Mine is the choice of Luthien"
> is that she's already *chosen* to be counted among humanity, in order
> to remain with Aragorn forever (like Luthien for Beren). Even
> assuming she could find a ship to take her to Valinor, she would be
> renouncing that choice and, in effect, divorcing Aragorn forever.
My understanding is that even if she *tried* to renege and sail to
Valinor, her ship would be prevented from reaching it, just as are all
humans kept away.
Michael Richard Siminski
b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
>Does Tolkien ever say that Isildur cut off just one finger? The phrase
>I remember is he "cut the Ring from Sauron's hand." But how much of the
>hand did he have to cut off with it?
Gollum said that Sauron had nine fingers.
Michael Richard Siminski
az...@imap1.asu.edu writes:
>Michael Richard Siminski (mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au) wrote:
>: Tolkien *could* type. He typed out the whole LoTR himself *twice*
>: (something that could teach you to type by itself) as well as many of
>: his stories relating to the First Age. Indeed in later life Tolkien
>: typed out almost everything he wrote. He even wrote letters to people
>: on his typewriter. In one or two of these letters he apologised for
>: using the typewriter, saying that he found it much easier than writing
>: by hand. His comments make one think that he would've loved working on
>: a PC with a laser printer.
>Especially with a bunch of cool fonts.
Downloaded from the net...(perhaps)... :)
Julio Oron Casta~o
Richard (JAA9...@shef.ac.uk) wrote:
That was what I mean, I would like to ask something:
After Sauron loses the ring, was gollum his next owner??.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
@@ @ @@ @ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@ @ Julio
@@ @ @ @@ @ @ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @ @ Oron
@@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @ @@ @@ @@ @@@@@ Casta~o
@@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@ @@@@@ @@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@ @@ !!! SCOOOOOBY!!
***********************i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es**********************
Frederik Ole Heinz
>If I remember correctly, Gimli was allowed to go because of his unusually
>strong friendship with the elves (esp Legolas and Galadrial) and because
>he was part of the fellowship.
I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember the text,
Arven gave up here place on the ship so that Gimli could go with Legolas, wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to have her fate divided from that
of Aragorn/Elessar.
Frederik
Brian E. Clark
Guillermo Alvarez (galv...@cs.ucsd.edu) wrote:
> So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
> carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
Well, the craft built by Legolas wasn't so much a ship as a canoe. And
between Legolas and Gimli, their luggage and the obligatory keg, there
wasn't room for a regretful Arwen.
-brian
--
The palest ink is better than the most retentive memory.
- Chinese proverb
BThompson
br...@telerama.lm.com (Brian E. Clark) wrote:
>Well, the craft built by Legolas wasn't so much a ship as a canoe.
And an outrigger canoe at that.
>And
>between Legolas and Gimli, their luggage and the obligatory keg, there
>wasn't room for a regretful Arwen.
Arwen was so regretful because she missed out on a keg of the finest
batch of Khazad Stout that had ever been brewed (or will ever be brewed
again). BTW, Legolas and Gimli accomplished the herculean task of
finishing the keg off before reaching Aman. Coincidently, the phrase "3
sheets to the wind" was coined at this time...and it wasn't describing
the sailing proficiency of the outrigger. :-)
Regards,
Bill
BThompson
BThompson <will...@lamar.colostate.edu> wrote:
>the sailing proficiency of the outrigger.
Oops, I meant sailing _efficiency_...unless, of course, the outrigger
suddenly sprang to life. :^)
Regards,
Bill
Turgon
Julio Oron Casta~o wrote:
>
> Richard (JAA9...@shef.ac.uk) wrote:
>
> > >> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
> > >
> > Frodo also lost a finger when Smeagol bit it of, dropping the ring into
> > the crack of doom.
> That was what I mean, I would like to ask something:
> After Sauron loses the ring, was gollum his next owner??.
You must re-read LoTR! :)
When Sauron was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil(both of witch were killed also)
Isildur come forth and with the remains of his father sword(Narsil) cut
Sauron's ring finger and kept the ring(altough Elrond and Cirdan advised him to
throw the Ring at Mount Doom... but the ring already had gained power over Isildur)
Isildur then went to Gondor to instruct Menendil(Anarion's son) in the rule of
the Land(that was when he wrote the letter that Gandalf read on the third age). He
then marched with the remaing of his army to Anor(once his father land's) in the
way there he was attacked by Orc's and all his army was killed(including his three
elder son's - his newest son Valandil remained in Anor). Isildur himself escaped, with
the help of the ring(giving him invisibility) to be killed by an Orc arrow when
trying to cross the Anduin... The ring betrayed him(avenging his master) and
escaped during that cross, making him a visible target.
Years after Smeagol and one of his friend's were playing near the banks of Anduim
and Smeagol's friend finds the Ring. Gollum kills him to keep the ring for
himself(and fakes an excuse for doing so...).
That's the story of the ring has told by Gandalf in the Council of Elrond on
the end of the Third Age of the World.
Turgon
Frederik Ole Heinz wrote:
> I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember the text,
> Arven gave up here place on the ship so that Gimli could go with Legolas, wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to have her fate divided from that
> of Aragorn/Elessar.
No, no, no, no, no!
Arwen gives her place to Frodo!
Remeber the goodbyes in Gondor? When Arwen gives Frodo her necklace and something
else? Yes. The possibility of going to the West.
Steve
I'd be interested in a copy too.
Stephen O'Neil
son...@iinet.net au
st95...@echidna.cowan.edu.au
http://www.iinet.net.au/~soneil/index.html
J.Karame
galv...@cs.ucsd.edu (Guillermo Alvarez) wrote:
>
>This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
>that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
>answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
>already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
>Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
>
>But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
>carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
>
little boat and sailed across.
It was probably pea-green.
Ah, I'm just a romantic.
Joe Karame
Glenn Saunders
I thought Sauron was physically killed and only "reformed" as a ghostly eye.
Frank Reinart
In article <4njakd$j...@netnews.upenn.edu>, rose...@futures.wharton.upenn.edu (Jennie Rosenbaum Matthews) writes:
>&But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
>&with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
>&carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
As I recall, Legolas built his own ship....
But, aside from that, Arwen said that her choice was that of Luthien, to
perish with her beloved, rather then pass into the West as she could have.
It was not that she couldn't for any external reason. She just didn't
want to, and wanted to share the fate of her husband.
JSLion
In the Silmarillion, it says about Sauron "... in the midst of the Land of
Mordor he had fashions the ruling ring. There now he brooded in the dark,
unitlhe had wrought for himself a new shapre; and it was terrible, for his
fair semblance had departed for ever when the was cast into the abyss at
the drowning of Numenor.......and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even
of the great among the elves and men could endure."
I think the "Eye of Sauron" was more of a magical manefestatin of Sauron's
will rather than his whole form. When people felt the "Eye of Sauron"
they were feeling the malice of his thoughts bent towards them and perhaps
precieved it as a great eye looking for them.
J.Karame
Turgon <cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt> wrote:
>Frederik Ole Heinz wrote:
>> I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember the text,
>> Arven gave up here place on the ship so that Gimli could go with Legolas, wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to have her fate divided from that
>> of Aragorn/Elessar.
>
> No, no, no, no, no!
>
> Arwen gives her place to Frodo!
> Remeber the goodbyes in Gondor? When Arwen gives Frodo her necklace and something
> else? Yes. The possibility of going to the West.
>
>--
Is that right?
I thought that by the very fact of being the ring-bearer Frodo's place on
the boat was assured.
But I can't remember totally.
Joe Karame
eh...@hr.house.gov
fhe...@inf.ethz.ch (Frederik Ole Heinz) wrote:
>Arven gave up here place on the ship so that Gimli could go with Legolas, wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to have her fate divided from that
>of Aragorn/Elessar.
I thought Arwen gave up her place to Frodo, so he could escape the pain
of bearing the ring.
However this fails to explain how Bilbo was able to come along, maybe he
was just that cool?
(I guess JRR couldn't kill of the first hobbit :) )
Erik Herz
Edwin A. Scribner
In article <4ns34d$h...@pinon.ccu.uniovi.es>, i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es (Julio Oron Casta~o) says:
>
>Richard (JAA9...@shef.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>> >> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
>> >
>> Frodo also lost a finger when Smeagol bit it of, dropping the ring into
>> the crack of doom.
> That was what I mean, I would like to ask something:
> After Sauron loses the ring, was gollum his next owner??.
Sauron: (maker)
Isildur: (from when he cut it from Sauron's finger until it fell off his finger
while he was in the Anduin trying to escape a band of orcs)
Deagol: (briefly when he found it in the Anduin)
Smeagol: (from when he murdered Deagol to when Bilbo found it; also
briefly before he and the Ring fell into the crack of doom)
Bilbo: (from when he found it to when he handed it over to Frodo)
Frodo (from when Bilbo gave it to him until Smeagol bit his finger off;
except for the time Sam had it)
Sam: (from when he took it from the unconscious, apparently dead, Frodo
at Cirith Ungol until he rescued Frodo)
The Ring was offered (by Frodo) to Gandalf, Tom Bombadil and Galadriel.
All refused the offer. Elrond IIRC also rejected the opportunity for ownership.
Boromir tried unsuccessfully to wrest it from Frodo by force.
.........................................................................
.Ted Scribner
.NSW Fisheries
.PO Box 21 Cronulla NSW 2230 Australia
.scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au
.........................................................................
Edwin A. Scribner
In article <4nsl7g$e...@pink.lm.com>, br...@telerama.lm.com (Brian E. Clark) says:
>
>Guillermo Alvarez (galv...@cs.ucsd.edu) wrote:
>
>> So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
>
>wasn't room for a regretful Arwen.
What about that ship that was seen by Firiel in "The Last Ship"? When did that
leave? It had one more place which they offered to Firiel, but she couldn't take it
because she was a mortal woman. Where was Arwen then?
Anyway, I don't remember either Gimli or Legolas showing any interest in beer,
stout etc. Legolas once expressed an interest in wine (at Isengard) but Gimli was
at that time much more interested in pipeweed. IIRC it was the hobbits, especially Sam,
who were into beer.
Bruce Alderman
On 22 May 1996 17:59:29 GMT,
"J.Karame" <TA5...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
> I thought that by the very fact of being the ring-bearer Frodo's
> place on the boat was assured.
That sounds right to me. Bilbo and Sam were allowed to make the trip
because *they* were ring-bearers.
Bruce Alderman
On 21 May 1996 14:57:16 +1000,
mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (Michael Richard Siminski) wrote:
> b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
> > Does Tolkien ever say that Isildur cut off just one finger? The
> > phrase I remember is he "cut the Ring from Sauron's hand." But how
> > much of the hand did he have to cut off with it?
> Gollum said that Sauron had nine fingers.
I can't remember seeing that reference in LoTR. I guess that's as good
an excuse as any to re-read the entire trilogy again!
Guy Byars
scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) wrote:
>The Ring was offered (by Frodo) to Gandalf, Tom Bombadil and Galadriel.
>All refused the offer. Elrond IIRC also rejected the opportunity for ownership.
>Boromir tried unsuccessfully to wrest it from Frodo by force.
Are you sure it was offered to Bombadil? Tom asked to see the ring, Frodo
complied. But I don't recall Frodo every saying "Tom, please take the Ring, it
is too big a matter for me" as he did with Gandalf & Galadriel.
Michael Richard Siminski
b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
>On 21 May 1996 14:57:16 +1000,
>mr...@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (Michael Richard Siminski) wrote:
>> b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
>> > Does Tolkien ever say that Isildur cut off just one finger? The
>> > phrase I remember is he "cut the Ring from Sauron's hand." But how
>> > much of the hand did he have to cut off with it?
>> Gollum said that Sauron had nine fingers.
>I can't remember seeing that reference in LoTR. I guess that's as good
>an excuse as any to re-read the entire trilogy again!
Haha, well any excuse is a good excuse. But I actually bothered to look up
this quote of Gollum's, and it turns out that he says that "he has four
fingers on the Black Hand". So my recollection is accurate if you assume
that Sauron has two hands, with the other having the correct number of
fingers. :)
BThompson
scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) continued on a topic
that is near and dear to my heart:
>
>Anyway, I don't remember either Gimli or Legolas showing any interest in beer,
>stout etc.
I don't have my books with me, but weren't there some dwarves in the bar
at The Prancing Pony when the hobbits passed through on their way to
Rivendell? I don't think it's too much of a leap to think dwarves would
partake in the ambrosia of the hops. :-)
> Legolas once expressed an interest in wine (at Isengard)
Yes, elves seemed to be more into the grape, but I think they'd make an
exception for Khazad Stout. :-)
Regards,
Bill
Keith Barkley
In article <4o01ch$q...@kettle.magna.com.au>
scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) writes:
> Frodo (from when Bilbo gave it to him until Smeagol bit his finger off;
> except for the time Sam had it)
Maybe this is pedantic, but wasn't Gollum the owner for a
few happy seconds? I am sure that even though he was
falling to his doom he was content. Unless the ring knew
it was about to be destroyed and caused Gollum to fear in
order to try to protect itself...
Keith Barkley
R23...@email.sps.mot.com
---
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you half as well as you
deserve.
Bilbo Baggins
Margaret R. Dean
In article <ma+oxQcr...@southwind.net>,
Bruce Alderman <b...@southwind.net> wrote:
>On 22 May 1996 17:59:29 GMT,
>"J.Karame" <TA5...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>> I thought that by the very fact of being the ring-bearer Frodo's
>> place on the boat was assured.
>
>That sounds right to me. Bilbo and Sam were allowed to make the trip
>because *they* were ring-bearers.
What Tolkien thought about this matter (i.e. Frodo's sailing West and its
connection with Arwen) is in Letter #246:
[Frodo] appears at first to have had no sense of guilt [at his
failure to destroy the Ring himself] . . . he was restored to
=sanity= and peace. But then he thought that he had given his
life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not,
and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the
first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort,
and thought of a way of healing him.*
*It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could
not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that!
For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not
permitted, and any exception required 'authority," and she was not in
direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice
to become 'mortal.' What is meant is that it was Arwen who first
thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to
Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own
renunciation of the right to go into the West as an argument. Her
renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's:
both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men.
Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have
a certain equity of exchange."
--Margaret Dean
<marg...@access.digex.net>
Brian E. Clark
Bruce Alderman (b...@southwind.net) wrote:
> > Gollum said that Sauron had nine fingers.
> I can't remember seeing that reference in LoTR. I guess that's as good
> an excuse as any to re-read the entire trilogy again!
From TT, "The Black Gate is Closed":
"That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil
built," said Frodo. "It was Isildur who cut off the finger of
the enemy."
"Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are
enough," said Gollum shuddering. "And He hated Isildur's
city."
Assuming that Sauron had two hands, one of which was still intact, we get
nine fingers. ;-)
ajan...@uwyo.edu
I always read it a little differently. Arwen had made her choice when Elrond
left the havens. Arwen had to go with him then to remain immortal. Otherwise
she became human. The reason no boat would bear her was that the Valar had
broken the circles of the world and removed Aman from the reach of most
mortals. Just my thoughts though. I don't think Arwen would have been allowed
to pass from the circles of the world into Aman, her ship would just
circumnavigate the globe.....of course they'd have several thousand years on
Magellen, so some good would come of it.
Frank Reinart
In article <4ns34d$h...@pinon.ccu.uniovi.es>, i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es (Julio Oron Casta~o) writes:
> That was what I mean, I would like to ask something:
> After Sauron loses the ring, was gollum his next owner??.
No. Isildur held the One Ring for two years, from the time he cut it from
Sauron's hand to the time of his death. Technically speaking, the next
one to lay hands on the Ring was Deagol, but Smeagol/Gollum killed him for
it and then took possession of the Ring himself
Frank
Edwin A. Scribner
In article <31A216...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt>, Turgon <cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt> says:
>
>Frederik Ole Heinz wrote:
>> I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember the text,
>> of Aragorn/Elessar.
>
>
> Arwen gives her place to Frodo!
> Remeber the goodbyes in Gondor? When Arwen gives Frodo her necklace and something
> else? Yes. The possibility of going to the West.
She may have given him her ticket, but surely the passport and visa for entry into Valinor
would be in her name.:-)
Edwin A. Scribner
>I'd always liked the idea that Legolas and Gimli sort of built a nice
>little boat and sailed across.
>
>It was probably pea-green.
>
>Ah, I'm just a romantic.
>
>Joe Karame
You sure are. Too romantic. In one of the appendixes to LotR
it says that Legolas built a *grey* ship in Ithilien and sailed over
sea in it and with him, it was said, went Gimli the Dwarf.
Robert Shirley
cpo...@eola.ao.net (Chrysanne Poole) wrote:
>Guillermo Alvarez (galv...@cs.ucsd.edu) wrote:
>}
>} This reminds me of a question. When Aragorn decides to die, he suggests
>} that Arwen travel finally to Valinor to rejoin her family, but she
>} answers something to the effect that "it's too late, my people have
>} already departed and there are no more ships, mine is the choice of
>} Luthien". (sorry, I have no books here)
>}
>} But a few months *later* Legolas goes himself to Valinor, taking Gimli
>} with him! So there were more ships, and even Gimli (a Dwarf, who never
>} carried the Ring) could get into them. Why couldn't Arwen do the same?
>I don't have my books here either, but I think she says something to the
>effect that there were no ships left that *would bear her* to Valinor.
>She gave up her place on the ships when she decided to become mortal. My
>interpretation was that any ship that tried to bear her to Valinor would
>never find it and that's why no ship would give her passage.
>If I remember correctly, Gimli was allowed to go because of his unusually
>strong friendship with the elves (esp Legolas and Galadrial) and because
>he was part of the fellowship.
>--
>Chrysanne E. Poole - Dept. of Environmental Engineering
> University of Central Florida
>*******************************************************
> http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~cep49594/home.html
>cep4...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu cpo...@ao.net
> "When species are lost, no change in price or
> technology will bring them back." -Dennis Meadows
I t;hink you pretty much covered it. I'll just add the actual text to
back you up:
"Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children-
with a renewed Elvish strain, since theirr mother was
Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their
choices. Arwen is not a `re-incarnation' of Luthien
(that in the view of this mythical history would be
impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and
left the world of time) but a descendant very like
her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds
Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not
here central and only occasionally referred to) she
`makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her
parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond
passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and
Elrohir, is not told; they delay their choice, and
remain for a while." LETTER #153
And from another:
"But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves -
not to other varieties, they had long before made
their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to
paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with
the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that
they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if
they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by
the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea - but so
pass out of time and history, never to return. The
Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to
which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once
and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of
Elrond and Arwen." LETTER #154
I think that these letters plainly explain that Arwen's
choice was made the moment of her parting with Elrond:
one can only imagine the conversation subtley hinted at
in the Return of the King between Elrond and Arwen. But
its import can be gleaned from these letters. The
parting would not be as emotional or have the tone of
finality if Arwen could have simply changed her mind when
Aragorn finally died and hop on the next boat back to
daddy.
When Aragorn suggests she recant her choice and go to the
Havens, Arwen acknowledges that this is futile:
"Nay, dear lord, she said, that choice is long over.
There is now no ship that would bear me hence..."
RotK Appendix A
Together, these lines suggest that Arwen knows her choice
was made in the past, and that even if there was a ship
it would not carry her, not there were no ships at all,
IMHO.
Michael Martinez
In article <4nvkm1$3...@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk>,
"J.Karame" <TA5...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
:Turgon <cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt> wrote:
:>Frederik Ole Heinz wrote:
:>> I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember the text,
:>> Arven gave up here place on the ship so that Gimli could go with Legolas,
:>> wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to have her fate divided from that
:>> of Aragorn/Elessar.
:>
:> No, no, no, no, no!
:>
:> Arwen gives her place to Frodo!
:> Remeber the goodbyes in Gondor? When Arwen gives Frodo her necklace and
:> something
:> else? Yes. The possibility of going to the West.
:
:Is that right?
:I thought that by the very fact of being the ring-bearer Frodo's place on
:the boat was assured.
:
:But I can't remember totally.
Arwen explicitly gave up her place to Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam. From "Many
Partings" in THE RETURN OF THE KING:
"But the Queen Arwen said: 'A gift I will give you. For I am the
daughter of Elrond. I shall not go with him now when he departs
to the Havens; for mine is the choice of Luthien, and as she so
have I chosen, both the sweet and the bitter. But in my stead
you shall go, Ring-bearer, when the time comes, and if you then
desire it. If your hurts grieve you and the memory of your
burden is heavy, then you may pass into the West, until all your
wounds and weariness are healed....'"
From Appendix A, Section I, sub-section i, in THE RETURN OF THE KING:
"At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven
an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond
chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him
therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves
that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of
the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and
pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the
change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice
was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the
world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in
Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War
of the Ring were fraught with sorrow."
From "The Tale of Aragorn And Arwen" in section V:
"'"...But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards
you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is
laid on us."
"'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
"'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth
of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall
go with me, if she so chooses."'"
and:
"'Nay, dear lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that
would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
will or I nil: the loss and the silence.'"
Back in March (1996) there was a discussion about whether Elladan and Elrohir
had also chosen to become mortal. I had taken the position they had (agreeing
with Robert Foster's conclusion that they appear to have done so), but
Margaret Dean pointed out that in one of his letters J.R.R. Tolkien said their
choice was delayed (for some ungiven reason):
From LETTERS, Letter #153, p. 193:
"The end of [Elrond's] sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told:
they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
--
++ ++ "Well Samwise: What do you think of the elves now?"
||\ /|| --fbag...@mid.earth.com
|| v ||ichael Martinez (mma...@basis.com)
++ ++------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Alderman
On 23 May 1996 12:34:16 -0400,
marg...@access5.digex.net (Margaret R. Dean) wrote:
> What Tolkien thought about this matter (i.e. Frodo's sailing West and
> its connection with Arwen) is in Letter #246:
Just who does this Tolkien guy think he is, anyway, the *author* or
something? :-)
> [Frodo] appears at first to have had no sense of guilt [at his
> failure to destroy the Ring himself] . . . he was restored to
> =sanity= and peace. But then he thought that he had given his
> life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not,
> and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the
> first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort,
> and thought of a way of healing him.*
That's interesting. Frodo's disquiet is much more obvious later on,
after he returns to the Shire but finds that he no longer belongs there.
And he mentions it explicitly to Sam on the trip to the Grey Havens:
`But,' said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, `I thought you were
going to enjoy the Shire, too, for years and years, after all you
have done.'
`So I thought too, once. But I have been too deeply hurt, Sam. I
tried to save the Shire, and it has been saved, but not for me.'
But there don't appear to be any obvious signs as early as Arwen's
giving Frodo the jewel, at least as far as I can see. Perhaps Arwen was
able to recognize the effects of the sacrifice Frodo had made because of
the sacrifice she herself had made.
Bruce Alderman
On 23 May 1996 12:56:47 -0400,
br...@telerama.lm.com (Brian E. Clark) wrote:
> Bruce Alderman (b...@southwind.net) wrote:
> > I can't remember seeing that reference in LoTR. I guess that's as
> > good an excuse as any to re-read the entire trilogy again!
> From TT, "The Black Gate is Closed":
> "That would be Minas Ithil that Isildur the son of Elendil
> built," said Frodo. "It was Isildur who cut off the finger of
> the enemy."
> "Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are
> enough," said Gollum shuddering. "And He hated Isildur's
> city."
Oh, great. Now I'll have to re-read the LotR *without* an excuse. :-)
> Assuming that Sauron had two hands, one of which was still intact, we
> get nine fingers. ;-)
Assuming, also, that his hands originally had five fingers each. ;-)
Michael Richard Siminski
b...@southwind.net (Bruce Alderman) writes:
>On 23 May 1996 12:34:16 -0400,
>marg...@access5.digex.net (Margaret R. Dean) wrote:
(SNIP)
>> [Frodo] appears at first to have had no sense of guilt [at his
>> failure to destroy the Ring himself] . . . he was restored to
>> =sanity= and peace. But then he thought that he had given his
>> life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not,
>> and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the
>> first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort,
>> and thought of a way of healing him.*
(SNIP)
>But there don't appear to be any obvious signs as early as Arwen's
>giving Frodo the jewel, at least as far as I can see. Perhaps Arwen was
>able to recognize the effects of the sacrifice Frodo had made because of
>the sacrifice she herself had made.
Elves were very perceptive people. It's amazing just how deeply they were
able to feel things.
As for Arwen giving up her spot for the Hobbits, it's also interesting to look
at how she did it. Just how does one grant passage into the Uttermost West to
someone else? Tolkien felt that she approached Gandalf about this, possibly
through Galadriel. Then Gandalf (with his high wisdom) agreed to the deal.
Just how Gandalf made it possible is not clear, but Tolkien said that any ship
bearing Gandalf would have made in into the West. Thus maybe it was just that
Gandalf had "super-user" access and had a "licence" to bring people to the
West, which would have been OK because of his reliable wisdom. Then again Sam
was able to go on a ship without Gandalf on it, as was Gimli, so probably the
Valar themselves had to have been more directly involved in the process. But
then there must have been some kind of communication link between the Valar
and Gandalf. No probs between Ainur, but Gandalf's power had been restricted.
Could he *always* instantaneously communicate with the Valar while in ME, or
did a sudden change in his allowed power level occur after Sauron was
vanquished?
Apologies for the disorganised paragraph, but with the last part I was
thinking with my keyboard. :)
col...@gil.com.au
>>Anyway, I don't remember either Gimli or Legolas showing any interest in beer,
>>stout etc.
>I don't have my books with me, but weren't there some dwarves in the bar
>at The Prancing Pony when the hobbits passed through on their way to
>Rivendell? I don't think it's too much of a leap to think dwarves would
>partake in the ambrosia of the hops. :-)
Following on from above. Dwarves are generally considered to be very fond of
beer and ale and if you want to keep a dwarf sober, keep him out of the inns.
This is true in quite a lot of fantasy books and varying realms created by a
wide variety of different authors. I doubt that Tolkiens world would be
different in this regard to dwarves and drinking
Edwin A. Scribner
Edwin A. Scribner
Edwin A. Scribner
Edwin A. Scribner
Bruce Alderman
On 26 May 1996 02:50:38 +1000,
> interesting to look at how she did it. Just how does one grant
> passage into the Uttermost West to someone else? Tolkien felt that
> she approached Gandalf about this, possibly through Galadriel. Then
> Gandalf (with his high wisdom) agreed to the deal. Just how Gandalf
> made it possible is not clear, but Tolkien said that any ship bearing
> Gandalf would have made in into the West. Thus maybe it was just that
> Gandalf had "super-user" access and had a "licence" to bring people
> to the West, which would have been OK because of his reliable wisdom.
That sounds plausible.
> Then again Sam was able to go on a ship without Gandalf on it, as was
> Gimli, so probably the Valar themselves had to have been more
> directly involved in the process.
Well, technically, the language of the Tale of Years casts some doubt on
the stories of Gimli and Sam going to the West:
"[Sam] comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he
gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairborns. Among them the
tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and
went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-Bearers."
"Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so
over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf."
In both cases, it is considered only hearsay, at least in LotR -- I
don't know whether Tolkien elaborated on it in Letters or HoME.
> Apologies for the disorganised paragraph, but with the last part I
> was thinking with my keyboard. :)
Is there any other way to think? :-)
Michael Martinez
In article <colinm.11...@gil.com.au>, col...@gil.com.au wrote:
>Following on from above. Dwarves are generally considered to be very fond of
>beer and ale and if you want to keep a dwarf sober, keep him out of the inns.
>This is true in quite a lot of fantasy books and varying realms created by a
>wide variety of different authors. I doubt that Tolkiens world would be
>different in this regard to dwarves and drinking
Tolkien's dwarves would not be caught dead in such a disreputable state. They
were no more fond of drinking than any other "races" in Middle-earth.
BThompson
scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) wrote:
>In article <4o1ojl$3d...@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, BThompson <will...@lamar.colostate.edu> says:
>>
>>scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) continued on a topic
>>that is near and dear to my heart:
>
>>>Anyway, I don't remember either Gimli or Legolas showing any interest in beer,
>>>stout etc.
>
>>I don't have my books with me, but weren't there some dwarves in the bar
>>at The Prancing Pony when the hobbits passed through on their way to
>>Rivendell? I don't think it's too much of a leap to think dwarves would
>>partake in the ambrosia of the hops. :-)
I, of course, meant _nectar_ of the hops, although some may consider beer
as food. :^)
>
>How do you know they weren't drinking brandy and dry? Or for
>that matter lemon squash?
How about Flaming Balrogs with Bree Beer chasers? Hmmm, perhaps I should
write up a bartender's guide to M-e? :-) Once again I'm bookless, but
didn't at least some of the dwarves drink beer/ale in Bilbo's pad at the
beginning of _The Hobbit_?
>
>>> Legolas once expressed an interest in wine (at Isengard)
>
>>Yes, elves seemed to be more into the grape, but I think they'd make an
>>exception for Khazad Stout. :-)
>
>I could argue, but the name "Khazad Stout" is so good that it's worth
>thinking seriously about for my next home brew of that type. I've already
>laid down a few meads that I called "Miruvore".
Ah, but wasn't _miruvor_ a distilled drink (i.e., cordial or liqueur)
rather than a fermented one (i.e, mead)?
>Which makes me realise
>that mead was actually the preferred drink of the Noldor (see the words
>of Galadriel's song as the company departed from Lothlorien) and, come to
>that, of the Valar no less (mentioned, I think, in "The Road Goes Ever On")
And recall that Beorn seemed to have a fair quantity of it on hand, which
would make sense given all of the honey he had sitting around. Gandalf
seemed to like it, too. Didn't he down a quart of it at one sitting?
Regards,
Bill
Roscinante
scri...@fisheries.nsw.gov.au (Edwin A. Scribner) writes:
>>I don't have my books with me, but weren't there some dwarves in the bar
>>at The Prancing Pony when the hobbits passed through on their way to
>>Rivendell? I don't think it's too much of a leap to think dwarves would
>>partake in the ambrosia of the hops. :-)
>How do you know they weren't drinking brandy and dry? Or for
>that matter lemon squash?
>>> Legolas once expressed an interest in wine (at Isengard)
>>Yes, elves seemed to be more into the grape, but I think they'd make an
>>exception for Khazad Stout. :-)
I'm sure I missed an important part of this thread, but isn't mead a beer?
I recall mead being a popular beverage in Lorien, I think..
--
All that is gold does not glitter.. .
Not all those who wander are lost..J.R.R.T. . /\ .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ._____// \\_____.
And the knowledge that they fear . \\ Rush // .
is a weapon to be held against them.. N.P. . \\ 2112 // .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . // /\ \\ .
Ghost in the Machine (wra...@styx.ios.com) IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Roscinante (ro...@fbn.globalent.net)
--
All that is gold does not glitter.. .
Not all those who wander are lost..J.R.R.T. . /\ .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ._____// \\_____.
And the knowledge that they fear . \\ Rush // .
Roscinante
mma...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) writes:
>Tolkien's dwarves would not be caught dead in such a disreputable state. They
>were no more fond of drinking than any other "races" in Middle-earth.
::Laugh:: I take it you don't approve of 'pipe-weed' either ;p
--
All that is gold does not glitter.. .
Not all those who wander are lost..J.R.R.T. . /\ .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ._____// \\_____.
And the knowledge that they fear . \\ Rush // .
is a weapon to be held against them.. N.P. . \\ 2112 // .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ . // /\ \\ .
Ghost in the Machine (wra...@styx.ios.com) I[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]]I
Roscinante
mma...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) writes:
>Tolkien's dwarves would not be caught dead in such a disreputable state. They
>were no more fond of drinking than any other "races" in Middle-earth.
::Laugh:: I take it you do not approve of 'pipe-weed' either? ;p
DARK
In article <sjt3-17059...@132.236.178.12> sj...@cornell.edu (scott) writes:
>In article <31987F...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Michael
>Schmeing <mic...@diamant.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE> wrote:
>
>> Louis Schiano wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > After Sauron lost his 'fair' form in the destruction of Numenor,
>> > did he appear as a giant red eye? Did he have any other body parts?
>> Surely he did: Gollum said, that he had only four fingers at one hand
>> (One was cut off by Isildur together with the ring).
>> If he had four fingers on one hand, he must have another to comparel
>> with.
>>
>> If he had hands, he would have had also a body in shape like a human or
>> an elf (or hobitt or other).
>
>Here's a question: what exactly was the Red Eye that constantly searched
>o'er the land for the Ringbearer? Was it a magical manifestation? A
>physical device? An extension of Sauron? I was wondering if this issue
>had been addressed before. Since I don't check this newsgroup regularly,
>e-mail would be more helpful.
>
> Wond'ring Aloud,
> Scott
I think, because Sauron was a Maia and that race had the power to appear
in whatever shapes and forms that suited them, that the Red Eye was
Sauron. Remember in the Silmarillion how during the battle with Huan
Sauron shifted shapes from serpent to his accustomed man-form and then
into a Vampire? If Sauron had captured the Ring then undoubtedly he
would have chosen a new form so he could wield it.
Warren Chang
Michael Martinez (mma...@basis.com) wrote:
: "J.Karame" <TA5...@QMWCC7.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
: :Turgon <cbat...@caravela.di.fc.ul.pt> wrote:
: :>Frederik Ole Heinz wrote:
: :>> I haven't got my books here, either; but as far as I remember
: :>> could go with Legolas, wheras she wanted to stay, not wishing to
: :>> have her fate divided from that of Aragorn/Elessar.
: :>
: :> No, no, no, no, no!
: :>
: :> Arwen gives her place to Frodo!
: :>
: :> Remeber the goodbyes in Gondor? When Arwen gives Frodo her
: :> necklace and something else? Yes. The possibility of going to
: :> the West.
: :>
: :I thought that by the very fact of being the ring-bearer Frodo's
: :place on the boat was assured.
: Arwen explicitly gave up her place to Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam.
Yes, but where does her authority come from for such a one-for-three
exchange? And if only Iluvatar has such authority, how did she make
ask about it, and how was she apprised of the approval?
: From Appendix A, Section I, sub-section i, in THE RETURN OF THE KING:
: "At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven
: an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond
: chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him
: therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves
: that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of
: the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and
: pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the
: change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice
: was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the
: world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in
: Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War
: of the Ring were fraught with sorrow."
: From "The Tale of Aragorn And Arwen" in section V:
: "'"...But even if it were not so, and her heart turned towards
: you, I should still be grieved because of the doom that is
: laid on us."
: "'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
: "'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth
: of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall
: go with me, if she so chooses."'"
: and:
: "'Nay, dear lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that
: would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
: will or I nil: the loss and the silence.'"
This raised a question in my mind (and which I posed to this group a
while back): if Arwen's ultimate fate rested on her accompanying
Elrond when he left Middle Earth, why then did Elrond not simply wait
an extra hundred or so years (a brief time to an Elf) to leave? Arwen
and Aragorn could have their time together, and when the Doom of Men
finally came between them, Elrond could then have taken Arwen with him
to Eressea, where perhaps the pain of her loss could be assuaged.
The consensus of this newsgroup seemed to be that the sudden weight of
years brought down on the bearers of the Elven-Rings after the
destruction of the One was too great to bear for another 100 years.
I find it interesting, though, that Tolkein never seemed to consider
this as an option for Elrond in any of his Letters (or did he?).
-Warren
--
Warren Chang, CS First Boston / FX Technology / Risk Systems Developer
12 East 49th Street, New York NY 10017, 29th Floor, (212) 322-7936
E-mail: wch...@fir.fbc.com, w...@jed.nyu.edu, wjc...@haven.ios.com
---
"ZZ ZZ :q :q! :wq! ^X^C :e ^Z^Z ^D^D^D ^C^C^C^C^C^C quit exit bye ^C^C^C
DARK
In article <4ns34d$h...@pinon.ccu.uniovi.es> i943...@petra.euitio.uniovi.es (Julio Oron Casta~o) writes:
>Richard (JAA9...@shef.ac.uk) wrote:
>
>> >> who lost a finger was Frodo, not sauron but don,t trust me.
>> >
>> Frodo also lost a finger when Smeagol bit it of, dropping the ring into
>> the crack of doom.
> That was what I mean, I would like to ask something:
> After Sauron loses the ring, was gollum his next owner??.
Sauron, Isildur, Smeagol(gollum), Bilbo, Frodo... Sam wore it for a short
time as well...
Marc R. Whitten
That was not the choice of Arwen.. She did not choose to marry Aragorn,
until death..she chose to become like Aragorn...a Mortal...As such, she
was no longer bound to the circles of the world. Their hope was in more
than the brief alottment of years given to them, but in the second music
also, which, she, by becoming mortal, was able to be part of. Read the
last words of Estel:
"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound
forever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than
memory. Farwell!"
RotK, Appendix A.
Her choice was long over, not because had she wished it, she could not
have remained immortal and married Aragorn, it was over because she
loved Aragorn to the upmost, and therefore would share not only his
life, but his fate and death as well.
IMHO, of course.
Marc.
Michael Martinez
In article <4oderq$e...@tofu.alt.net>,
ro...@fbn.globalent.net (Roscinante) wrote:
> I'm sure I missed an important part of this thread, but isn't mead a beer?
> I recall mead being a popular beverage in Lorien, I think..
Mead is made from milk and honey. Beer is brewed from hops (usually barley
hops, but I've heard of and seen all sorts of weird beers).
Basically, think of beer as grain-based and mead as milk-based.
Michael Martinez
In article <4odf6n$e...@tofu.alt.net>,
ro...@fbn.globalent.net (Roscinante) wrote:
>mma...@basis.com (Michael Martinez) writes:
>>Tolkien's dwarves would not be caught dead in such a disreputable state.
>>They were no more fond of drinking than any other "races" in Middle-earth.
>
After many years of role-playing, I'm come to accept that there are certain
myths in the RPG community which have no foundation in Tolkien, though most
people believe they do.
Live and let live.
But I do still get a little touchy some days. :)
And, being allergic to cigarettes, I'm not too fond of tobacco in general, but
I think it's nonetheless a nice, homey touch in the stories.