Columbia Gramaphone
Gear
have been reading through the group for a few weeks and thought this would
be a good place to ask.
I have aquired an old portable record player, which I like very much, but I
am not sure if it is worth doing any restoration work on it. Could anyone
offer me a rough estimate of its value?
It is a a dark, leather bound case, with a win up handle on the front, and
two catches to hold the lid shut. Inside to the right near corner is a
chrome dip, which I presume is to hold spare needles? To the left near
corner is a speed dial to alter the rotation speed. The turntable is lined
with a dark velvet material (bit dirty). The arm is chrome, with the head
housing a speaker. The Pat No on the arm is: 212137-264263, the brand being
COLUMBIA.
It seems to be in great working order, but as I mentioned the velvet is a
bit dirty and I would also like to have the case re-lined. The wood which
houses the actual turntable could also use a french polish.
Does anyone have an idea to its worth or year? Any help appreciated, I will
check the group, but my email is ham...@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance
John-Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves
<ham...@hotmail.com> writes
>I hope you all do not mind this post as I am not a regular poster, but I
>have been reading through the group for a few weeks and thought this would
>be a good place to ask.
>
>I have aquired an old portable record player, which I like very much, but I
>am not sure if it is worth doing any restoration work on it.
can probably achieve with items from around your house. You state that
the motor is working well. In which case. LEAVE IT ALONE. Most of our
repair work comes from people inappropriately greasing or oiling motors.
>offer me a rough estimate of its value?
>
>It is a a dark, leather bound case,
Probably Rexene or somesuch rather than leather but please contradict
us.
>with a win up handle on the front, and
>two catches to hold the lid shut. Inside to the right near corner is a
>chrome dip, which I presume is to hold spare needles? To the left near
>corner is a speed dial to alter the rotation speed. The turntable is lined
>with a dark velvet material (bit dirty). The arm is chrome, with the head
>housing a speaker. The Pat No on the arm is: 212137-264263, the brand being
>COLUMBIA.
As well as a patent number is there a model number on the soundbox? (The
soundbox is the circular thing that lowers onto the record. The model
number incidentally will refer to the soundbox not the gramophone) The
real problem is that Columbia portable (a.k.a. suitcase models) were
produced from the 1920s to the early 1960's. If it is a model made in
Britain after the merger with H.M.V. you MAY find a date written in
pencil on a quality check label under the base board. Columbia had a
chequered history and trying to sort out the company history can send a
person mad. (British and American Columbia separated as companies but
each kept the name in 1923 for example. To muddy the issue further both
American and British models were subsequently available in Britain.) It
would be a help if you could post a photo to a web page and post a link
in the newsgroup for us all to have a look.
>
>It seems to be in great working order, but as I mentioned the velvet is a
>bit dirty and I would also like to have the case re-lined. The wood which
>houses the actual turntable could also use a french polish.
They did not usually use french polish on the baseboard but that brown
gooey unidentifiable stain and varnish that was poured over all doors,
fireplaces and cheap furniture from 1900 to 1959. We suggest, in the
first instance, that you just try giving it a shine up with a good
quality fine paste dark wax polish.
>
>Does anyone have an idea to its worth or year? Any help appreciated, I will
>check the group, but my email is ham...@hotmail.com
One of the clues as to whether it is a British, American or French
Columbia model would be Your Country of origin. Which is another reason
why it is so crap to post using a hotmail account.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>
--
John-Henry Collinson and Kristine Reeves Please do not send us emails
as we never read them. Join the campaign to stop Unsolicited
Non-commercial Emails NOW. Come and see us instead; we are down the pub.
Ronnie McKinley
>One of the clues as to whether it is a British, American or French
>Columbia model would be Your Country of origin. Which is another reason
>why it is so crap to post using a hotmail account.
If you check the rest of the headers Timmy, you will notice ...
Organization: BT Internet
Message-ID: <8n1j9a$452$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-174-94.btinternet.com
... so my guess "Country of origin" ... FRANCE ;>
Ronnie
----------
"It's Good to Talk"
=============
Timothy Collinson
<mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes
>If you check the rest of the headers Timmy, you will notice ...
>
>Organization: BT Internet
>Message-ID: <8n1j9a$452$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-174-94.btinternet.com
>
> ... so my guess "Country of origin" ... FRANCE ;>
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
--
Timothy Collinson. Please do not send me emails
as I am too young to read them.
Gear
patent number I gave is the only number I can find on the entire unit, and
it is located on what you called the sound box (the bit that lowers down
onto the record). Does this mean I am going to have to take the thing to
pieces to find a model number?
Thanks again
"John-Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves" <h&k...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote in
message news:U3Y1KiAj...@jhenry.demon.co.uk...
> One of the clues as to whether it is a British, American or French
> Columbia model would be Your Country of origin. Which is another reason
> why it is so crap to post using a hotmail account.
> >
Ronnie McKinley
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>--
Eh-Oh!!
Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
Ronnie
----------
Sticky Needle Antiques
------------------------------------
George Conklin
John-Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves <h&k...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <8n1j9a$452$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>, Gear
><ham...@hotmail.com> writes
>>I hope you all do not mind this post as I am not a regular poster, but I
>>have been reading through the group for a few weeks and thought this would
>>be a good place to ask.
>>
>>I have aquired an old portable record player, which I like very
>much, but I
>>am not sure if it is worth doing any restoration work on it.
>Yes. From your description it is only cleaning that it needs which you
>can probably achieve with items from around your house. You state that
>the motor is working well. In which case. LEAVE IT ALONE. Most of our
>repair work comes from people inappropriately greasing or oiling motors.
The idea that a mechanical phonograph is fragile and oil
is going to hurt it is rather strange.
However, if you want to read THE book on the subject, get
the Eric Reiss book listed below. Also, post to the proper
news group:
Rec.antiques.radio+phono
Frequently Asked Questions for Phonographs
Availability of this information:
* The FAQs are posted monthly in the newsgroup
rec.antiques.radio+phono
* The FAQs can be downloaded from the Web at this URL:
http://www.pagesz.net/~henryj/phono.htm
.
_________________________________________________________________
Revision history of this part of the FAQ, originally part of the
combined Radio+Phono FAQ.
Version 1.0 Oct. 20, 94 First version: material was supplied by
George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu).
1. 1.1 Dec. 12, 94 Revisions by George Conklin.
2. 2.0 May 3,1995 This material was supplied by George Conklin
(geo...@nccu.edu).
3. 3.0 March 12, 1996. Third Version. This material was supplied
by George Conklin (geo...@nccu.edu).
4. 4.0 Dec. 11, 1997 Joined the two separate FAQ versions on
Phonographs.
5. 5.0 Feb. 24, 1998 Fourth Version by George Conklin.
6. 5.1 July 22, 1998 Fourth Version with address updates.
7. 6.0 April 20, 1999 Fifth Version by George Conklin
8. 6.1 Sept. 25, 1999 Fifth Version updates and Posted
Separately
9. 6.2 April 9, 2000 Additional information added.
Editor: George Conklin (hen...@pagesz.net)
Note: The section of the FAQ for Old-Time Radios is maintained on
another server by Trevor Gale.
_________________________________________________________________
The most frequently asked question continues to be from the very
first day of the group: "Where can I buy steel needles for my
Victrola?"
* Answer: Contact the Antique Phonograph Supply Company, Route
23, Box 123, Davenport Center, NY 13751. Phone 607-278-6218
or http://www.antiquephono.com. Remember to change your
needles after every play. The engineering concept was simple:
the needles are softer than the record, and will wear without
stressing the record. Some records had grit in the mix to
wear the needle and not the record.
____________________________________________________________
Section 1.1: Technical Questions about Phonographs
1.
I have found a phonograph. Can I overwind it? I've never wound one before.
+ Unless you wind your new acoustic phonograph very
quickly and let the wound spring(s) fetch up sharply,
you should not worry about overwinding. Turn the crank
slowly until you feel the springs tighten. After a few
tries, this should be second nature to you. If you hear
a spring slip after you wind a few turns, or if the
handle keeps turning forever, you have a broken or
disconnected spring. A single-spring phonograph will
play 1 or 1.5 records. A 2-spring model will play for
2-5 records. There are also 3 and 4 spring models.
2.
My phonograph does not work. What can I do?
+ Answer: There is one excellent book which explains how
old phonographs, gramophones and cylinder players work.
"The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss. It is also
available from APSCO listed above. It explains how to
work on a phonograph to get it running again. It
contains detailed photographs. Be sure to buy the Third
Edition since it contains updated price lists and a good
discussion of fake phonographs.
3.
I have just found this wonderful windup phonograph. How can I tell if it
works? I don't have time to read a book. What can I do? (Is it REAL? See
Q4 below).
+ Answer: Phonographs are found which look new. Others
look as if they have been sitting in a wet basement for
70 years. But there are a few quick tests:
+ Does the dealer demonstrate the unit? If it plays and
sounds fine, it probably is in good shape. It is
relatively hard to hide problems with spring motors.
+ Is the spring broken? This means that your turn the
crank and nothing happens. Usually the spring is broken
near the center, so the phonograph does not play. New
springs can be found for most phonographs from the
Antique Phonograph Supply Company. Cost: about $50 if
you send in the barrel. If a new spring is not
available, you can patch the old one by following
instructions in the Reiss book listed below. But please
note that you may not want to do this without some
experience since you can cut your fingers off.
+ If the turntable rotates (or the cylinder turns), but
you hear a loud bump while the record is playing, then
the spring needs grease.
a. This is not easy. Purists will say to take the
spring out of the barrel, clean it and the reload the
barrel. Warning: if you try to do this, you can cut your
fingers off. The barrel is a cylinder into which the
spring is wound. Some cheaper units simply have an open
spring. Greasing such a spring is much more easy.
b. Shortcut: You can add grease to the spring
without first taking it out of the barrel. Most barrels
had an opening called a graphite hole. Wind up the unit
all the way. Take the plug out of the graphite hole and
force in grease. The original Edison formula, which I
have used, contains 10 parts vasoline to 1 part
graphite. Put the screw back in the hole. Let the unit
run down, dispersing the grease.
+ Listen to see if the governor is in good shape. When you
play the unit, is there a high speed vibration. If so,
you may need work on the governor. This is difficult.
+ If the turntable works (or the cylinder turns), then
play a record. What does it sound like? If you hear a
lot of vibrations, or if the sound is bad, you probably
need to rebuild the reproducer.
a. Rebuilding an Edison reproducer for a cylinder
phonograph is ususally an easy job. Kits cost $6.00. A
new sapphire is $30.00 and is likely to outlast you.
b. Rebuilding a Victor #2 (the most common) is not
difficult either.
c. Rebuilding a Diamond Disc reproducer is more
difficult. The old diaphragms take effort to remove
without damage. It can be done. Kits are available. New
diamond needles: $60.00. But the old diamond may be in
good shape.
d. Rebuilding the Victor Orthophonic is very
difficult and few people will touch this one. Such
reproducers (heads) cost about $100 in auctions. Many
were made of pot metal, and they are gradually falling
apart.
e. Rebuilding other heads requires buying generic parts
and doing the best you can. 6. Ok, I don't know much
about mechanical things. What can I do? You can send the
entire works off for repair and cleaning. This costs
about $150 for an Edison unit. 7. What about parts? What
if something wears out? If you buy an Edison or a
Victor, most motor parts are still available. As for the
other units around, if something other than the spring
is broken, you might want to look for a different unit
unless you are handy around a machine shop, or are
willing to pay to send the entire motor out for repair.
4.
The dealer offered me a nice external horn machine. Is it a fake or a
reproduction? Is it as old as he says it is? The catalog says the
phonograph is 'remanufactured.' What does this mean?
+ Answer: Since external horn machines command a big
price, operators in South Asia has begun taking old
motors and remanufacturing cases to make 'new' old
phonographs. These phonographs are often excellent in
appearance, and come with marvelous reproduction brass
horns and often with good reproducers too. But their
weakness is often the motor, which is from an old
portable phonograph, or even a reproduction too. The
horns are pretty, and may be the case. If it works, a
fair price would be $250-300, if you are so inclined.
But be careful, because the tone arms are usually weak,
and the brackets which hold the horn to back support are
usually thin sheet brass, totally useless. Recently in
the United States some mass catalogs which sell
'discontinued' products have started adding reproduction
phonographs to their catalogs. They state they are
'remanufactured' using old and new parts, including new
horns. The price asked is $399, plus a huge shipping
charge of about $45. Do not even be tempted unless you
just want something for interior decoration. One
important clue to a fake old phonograph is the
reproducer---where the needle goes. If it is covered
with a piece of metal, it is probably new. Old horn
machines used mica which is transparent and not covered.
Eric Reiss also has a section to how to spot fake
phonographs.
5. E-bay lists an old cylinder player. Should I bid on it?
+ Answer: E-bay is not a place for a beginner. When Edison
players first hit E-bay, the prices were not only high
retail, they were retail + 50 to 75%. After a half dozen
or so common machines were sold, prices declined to
average retail.
I purchased one at below retail and it was only fair,
although the seller thought it was great. Despite the
price, I would never have looked at a second machine had
I seen it. Digital color pictures make anything look
good. E-bay is a seller's market, but a rough road for a
buyer. I use E-bay, but be very, very careful. If you
are reading this FAQ as a beginner, then buy your
machines from somewhere you can trust locally.
For a beginner I would recommend the first machine to be
an Edison Standard or Edison Home. Get a machine which
plays both 2 and 4-minute cylinders, and a horn which is
pleasing to your wife. For playing 78s, start with a
Victor internal horn machine and move back to the
external horn machines as you save up your money. Prices
are headed up for Victor and Edison machines so the
'book value' you see in the guides is just a starting
point. Even well-known dealers are raising their prices
blaming the Internet auctions.
As for purchasing cylinders from E-bay, I suggest being
very, very careful. Many shippers do not know how to
pack wax cylinders and thus ruin old artifacts by
packing carelessly in newspaper. I have had at least 4
cylinders smashed in the mail by bad packing. And the
average antique dealer does not know how to pack
anything. Even when they pay a fortune to have a
commercial company pack, often they make elementary
mistakes due to total ignorance of what they are doing.
This includes shipping a cylidner player with a cylidner
on the mandrel, virtually making it certain the stylus
will be broken.
6. I just found some 'thick' records. How can I play them?
+ Answer: Many people think that the standard 78 record is
'thick.' However, the really thick records were made by
Thomas Edison and are called Diamond Discs. They were
made from 1912 until Edison closed his phonograph
business in 1929, one day before the stock market
crashed. In their time, these were the premium records.
Do NOT try to play a diamond disc record with a Victrola
steel needle machine. It will ruin the record and it
will not play. The DDs were recorded vertically, using
the hill and dale method. They were played with a
special diamond needle. You can play such records today
at 78 rpm on with a stereo catridge using either the LP
needle or a 78 (3 mil) needle. Or, better yet, such
records still work fine with an Edison machine. A good
DD machine should not cost over $400 in the USA.
Specialized models may be more.
[INLINE]
7. I just found a "Victrola." What is it worth?
+ Answer: Most people use the word 'Victrola' as a generic
term, like Frigidaire is used to mean all types of ice
box. Most likely such a term means an upright machine
made during the 1920s and housed in a 'brown box.' Since
millions were made, it is impossible to give a specific
value. However, most upright Victors go for about $400
right now in the Eastern USA.
8. Where can I read about my Victrola?
+ Answer: Buy the book Look for the Dog by Robert
Baumbach. It lists all Victor models, starting with the
open horn machines. Some were quite rare; most very
common. Production figures are given. Buy the book from
Allen Koenigsberg, 502 E. 17th Street, Brooklyn, NY
11226. Phone 718-941-6835.
9. Where can I find out about record auctions? Parts? Supplies
for old phonographs?
+ Answer: Join MAPS, the Michigan Antique Phonograph
Society, 60 Central Street, Battle Creek, MI 49017.
After you join, purchase the Resource Directory. It
lists hundreds of dealers and places to buy records and
get your phonograph serviced. It also lists other clubs.
10. I want to buy an Edison Standard. Can you name some dealers
in my area?
+ Answer: Generally the answer to this question is
unfortunately 'no.' The market for used phonographs
remains fragmented. In certain areas there are
well-known dealers. But you are not going to find one
listed in every city. Antique malls often sell machines
that are offered to them. Prices can be high. As for
buying on-line, please look above the my comments on
E-bay. Prices of Victor or Edison machines seem to be
going up rather quickly.
11.
I just found a phonograph. I can't remember the name. Who made old
phonographs anyway?
+ Answer: The phonograph was invented by Thomas Edison. He
let it sit on the shelf for 10 years. His patents
covered cylinder records, the original format. Later
Berliner obtained a patent for what we call today the
78. Its virtue was that the 78 could be mass produced
easily. Victor took up the Berliner patent. Edison
stayed with cylinder records. By 1920 it seems as if
every urniture store would put together a case and
generic works and a new brand was born. Sometimes Edison
would sell spare cases so conversion companies would put
together parts from different sources even in well-known
cases. Some common brands: Edison, Victor, Sonora,
Brunswick, Silvertone, Zonophone, Aeolian, Pathe,
Granby, Columbia, Vocalian, Harmonola, Heinman and
others.
12.
What is a gramophone?
+ Answer: The British refer to a phonograph which plays
flat records as a gramophone. In British usage, a
phonograph plays cylinders only.
13.
I just found an Edison cylinder player. Where can I find out about how it
works?
+ Answer: There is one authority on Edison players, both
cylinder and the Diamond Disc (DD) type. His name is
George Frow. He wrote two books which define the field.
The book on cylinder phonographs is now available in a
Second Printing 150th Anniversary Edition of "Edison
Cylinder Phonograph Companion," Available from several
sources, but I have a listing from Koenigsberg listed
above. Avoid the first printing (1994) since the
pictures are less clear than in the second 1997
printing, and the new edition contains additional
information. The second book covers Edison Diamond Disc
machines. "Edison Diamond Disc Phonographs, 1912-1929."
Frow covers all models, including some which may have
never been made! His research comes from the Edison
historical site in Orange, NJ. Source: write Frow
himself at George Frow, 48 Woodfields, Chipstead,
SEVENOAKS, TN13 2RB, Great Britain. (This is a new 1997
address). He airmails the book, with no delay. Check for
current price. He took my personal check. Also available
from Koenigsberg listed above.
14. Where can I find a list of cylinders which were made?
+ Answer: Wax cylinders made up until by Edison 1912 are
covered in a book written by Alan Koenigsberg, 502 E.
17th Street, Brooklyn, NY 11226. There are several
listings of Edison's celluloid Blue Amberol cylinders,
but all seem to be out of print at the moment.
15. Are there any magazines which discuss old phonographs?
+ Answer: Not really, in the traditional sense of the word
magazine. Collecting phonographs is really a hobby and
publications come and go. The Michigan Antique
Phonograph Society has a newsletter called "In the
Groove." It is probably the best source of information
right now, with the additional of several regular
authors to the masthead. The City of London Phonograph
Society (CLPGS) seems to have undergone some kind of
internal revolution in the past year. However, their
semi-annual magazine "Hillandale News" is still of
interest. WWW sites, e-mail and other modern modes of
communication have ceased from CLPGS. The membership
secretary is now Suzanne Lewis, 51 Brockhurst Road,
CHESHAM, Bucks, HP5 1LG, England. Current rates to join
are $28.50 (USA $).
16.
What are the most common old phonographs?
+ The phonographs which have survived today are Edison,
Victor and Columbia. Of the three, Edison was the most
sturdy, although Victor was often well made also. The
Columbia units used more pot metal, which decays with
age. Their reproducers were never up to Edison
standards.
17.
Are all phonograph cyliders the same?
+ Answer: Not all phonograph cylinders are the same. The
cylinder was the original format for recording. The most
commonly found ones today are Edison's black wax (Gold
Moulded) cylinders. These play for 2 minutes. Columbia
made 2-minute cylinders wax cylinders until 1902, then
switched to making their cylinders out of celluloid. The
celluloid cylinders are often found today in excellent
condition compared to their wax counterparts. Later
everyone switched to 4-minute cylinders. Edison always
offered kits to upgrade his players. The 4-minute
cylinders turned at 160RPM (as did most 2-minute
cylinders) and had 200 grooves per inch. Edison produced
4-minute wax cylinders and later 4-minute blue celluloid
cylinders. The blue cylinders (called Blue Amberols)
were launched in 1912 and were made until 1929, long
after everyone else quit making them.
18.
I have just found a phonograph in a brown case. When as it made?
+ Answer: If the phonograph has a large external horn, it
was made before about 1912. After that, the ladies
wanted horns inside a case, hidden from view. If the
unit you are looking at has an enclosed soundbox in a
pice of furniture, it was made from 1910 or so up until
the end of the wind up era about 1930. Not many
phonographs were made from 1929-1945. The depression
caused a collapse of sales, with one authority claiming
that record sales declined by 90% during the 1930s.
19.
What is the difference between Victor and Victrola?
+ Answer: The Victor Talking Mahince Company made external
horn phonographs. When they switched to horns inside of
the case, the name -ola was added. Victrola technically
means an internal horn machine. Edison did the same
thing. He called his internal horn cylinder machines
Amberolas.
20.
I have some 78s I got from my family. I am afraid of hurting them with a
diamond needle. How can I play such records?
+ Answer: You can play 78s with a modern phonograph using
a diamond needle. If you have only a stereo stylus, you
can still use it to play your 78s without hurting them.
Of course, it is best to use about a 3 mil needle made
for the purpose. Modern equipment, tracking at 2 grams,
is quite gentle on records compared to the old Victors,
tracking at several ounces.
____________________________________________________________
Section 1.2: References and Sources.
Books about phonographs are written mostly by hobbyists, not
engineers or academics. Below is a listing of common sources to
get you going in the hobby.
1. The Compleat Talking Machine, Third Edition by Eric L. Reiss
is the most important book for a beginner. It lists not only
many models, but it tells how to oil a machine and how to
make most repairs. Order from: The Antique Phonograph Supply
Company, Route 23, Box 123, Davenport Center, NY 13751-0123.
(607) 278-6218. Order this book first. There is a section on
the value of old machines, and numerous pictures to help the
beginner identify old machines. Try www.antiquephono.com.
2. The Talking Machine: An Illustrated Compendium 1977-1929 by
Tim Fabrizio and George F. Paul is a marvelous book with
hundreds of fine phonographs of rare, early machines as well
as the more common models a beginner might find. According to
the book, it may be ordered from Schif...@aol.com. The 1999
Fabrizio and Paul book Antique Phonograph Gadgets, Gizmos and
Gimmicks is also highly recommended if you are interested in
phonograph accessories. Published in 2000 by the same authors
is Discovering Antique Phonographs: 1887-1929, with beautiful
photographs of some of the more obscure machines. This book
would be of most interest to the advanced collector. The
authors accuse Edison of following an elite market, without
mentioning that his diamond disc format produced records
which were good for 3,000 or more plays while the
competition's needle records wore out rather quickly. Because
both his cylinder and disc players were high quality
products, they often survive today in excellent condition,
while others, especially Columbia machines, are difficult to
find in excellent working order.
3. For books about Edison machines, George Frow has written the
"bibles." For cylinder machines, order Edison Cylinder
Phonograph Companion. It was newly revised in 1997 and
contains about all you can possibly want to know about the
various models. Note: it does not discuss prices. Earlier
editions of this book are found only in rare book rooms of a
few libraries. The only drawback to this book are the
photographs, which are small and dark. The second book by
Frow covers diamond disc phonographs by Edison (the 'thick'
records players): The Edison Disc Phonographs and the Diamond
Discs: A history with Illustrations), 1982. APSCO sells both.
You may also contact George Frow, 48 Woodfields, Chipstead,
Sevenoaks, Kent TN13 2RB, Great Britain. This is a new
address for Mr. Frow.
4. For Victor machines, there is also one book everyone uses
called Look for the Dog by Robert Baumbach. A new paperback
edition is out. The illustrations are good, but the
discussion is more limited than what is found in Frow's books
on Edison. APSO sells this book too.
5. The main 'general' book on phonographs is called From Tinfoil
to Stereo: The Acoustic Years of the Recording Industry
1877-1929 by Walter L. Welch and Leah Brodbeck Stenzel Burt,
University of Flordia Press, 1994. Yes, it is somewhat
scholarly and does contain some errors, as do many of the
books about phonographs. Some reviewers found dozens of
errors. Unfortunately since phonograph collecting a hobby,
good referees are few and errors and myths are common.
6. Magazines about phonographs are few and far between. However,
I recommend the following for the beginner in the hobby
because they are readily available, appear regularly and are
nicely done:
+ In the Groove ,a monthly newsletter published by the
Michigan Antique Phonograph Society. Contact MAPS at 60
Central Street, Battle Creek, Michigan, 49017. If you
are looking for parts, this is the place to start. They
publish resource guide and membership directory which
lists about 800 phonograph collectors and about every
known organization dealing with phonographs and parts in
the world. This is the document to get if you want to
buy parts or look for local dealers.
+ Hillandale News published by the City of London
Phonograph and Gramophone Society. This is a nicely
produced magazine. It comes out now only semi-annually
and CLPGS has recently discontinued its WWW site and
e-mail, suggesting problems. Contact Suzanne Lewis, 51
Brockhurst Road, CHESHAM, Bucks, HP5 1LG, England.
Current dues in US dollars are $28.50.
+ I am sad to have to report that the journal Victrola and
78 Journal has ceased publication. However, 13 issues
are still available and they are a valuable source of
information. Purchase of the back issues in a package is
highly recommended. Contact Tim Gracyk, 9180 Joy Lane,
Granite Bay, CA 95746-9682 or tgr...@garlic.com.
_________________________________________________________________
Places to Get Repairs in the USA
As for places to get repairs done, some members of this news
group recommend you contact Dwayne Wyatt of Wyatt's Music World,
PO Box 601, Lakeport, CA 707 263-5013. The catalog lists all the
parts for various Edison cylider and Amberola phonographs, with a
price for each and every screw, gear and so forth. Columbia
Grafanola, Models AT, AZ, and Q and some Victors and Brunswicks
are also listed. He sells reproduction Cygnet Horns. Also, APSO
(www.antiquephono.com) does compete overhauls of old phonographs
and supplies parts.
The above sources are enough to get you started. They are not
a complete listing of very book about Victors or Thomas Edison.
They are, however, the most important pieces of information and
enough to answer many (if not all) questions. For the most new
information possible, get the resource guide from MAPS.
____________________________________________________________
Phonograph Sites on the WWW
Now, what about the Web? In the past several years there has
been an explosion of pictures of old phonographs on the WWW. What
can a beginner expect? Please remember the a FAQ is designed to
answer frequently asked questions in an interactive discussion
group. In contrast, the WWW is a series of pages developed by
those with a special interest in the phonograph, commercial and
otherwise.
The WWW is totally unrefereed, meaning that anyone can post
information. Most information on web pages is accurate, but not
all. Some is designed to sell phonographs, while others are
interested in keeping the hobby alive. Having stated that you
need to be aware of its limitations, the WWW does provide
interesting surfing for beginners. Most WWW sites end up being
referenced by each other.
My personal opinion that the best single place to start
surfing the web for a beginner is at http://www.tinfoil.com.
I have received information that postings on
rec.antiques.radio+phono are archived: An archive for this
newsgroup is located at the University of North Carolina,
formerly Sunsite, now Metalab, in the Agronomy partition
maintained by Steve Modena AB4EL..
http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/agronomy/ham/RADI
O+PHONO/ Archives are available from the beginning of 1998, in
text files containing several days' worth of posts. This is much
more convenient for browsing than retrieving posts one at a time
by DejaNews. Older archives going back to the newsgroup creation
in 1994 used to be on the server but now apparently you have to
ask AB4EL for them (address given in the archive). If you have
some time to spare, reading the old posts can be fun as well as
instructive. There was more technical discussion in those days,
and much of it is just as relevant now. There was even quite a
lot of discussion on, of all things, phonographs, before those
collectors got outnumbered and gave up. The archive gets updated
every six or seven days now.
[INLINE]
Mail to George Conklin
Professional Home Page Listing
Last updated June 1, 2000.
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mike wilcox
if your unit is of English origin the patent # indicates the earliest production
date being about 1926-27, and the latest production would depend on the length
of the patent period. For a brief look at patent resources go:
http://www.bl.uk/services/sris/history.html
Mike Wilcox
Wilcox & Hall Appraisers
www3.sympatico.ca/appraisers
Gear wrote:
> I hope you all do not mind this post as I am not a regular poster, but I
> have been reading through the group for a few weeks and thought this would
> be a good place to ask.
>
> I have aquired an old portable record player, which I like very much, but I
> am not sure if it is worth doing any restoration work on it. Could anyone
> offer me a rough estimate of its value?
>
> It is a a dark, leather bound case, with a win up handle on the front, and
> two catches to hold the lid shut. Inside to the right near corner is a
> chrome dip, which I presume is to hold spare needles? To the left near
> corner is a speed dial to alter the rotation speed. The turntable is lined
> with a dark velvet material (bit dirty). The arm is chrome, with the head
> housing a speaker. The Pat No on the arm is: 212137-264263, the brand being
> COLUMBIA.
>
> It seems to be in great working order, but as I mentioned the velvet is a
> bit dirty and I would also like to have the case re-lined. The wood which
> houses the actual turntable could also use a french polish.
>
> Does anyone have an idea to its worth or year? Any help appreciated, I will
> check the group, but my email is ham...@hotmail.com
>
> Thanks in advance
Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves
<jep...@ntrnet.net> writes
>The idea that a mechanical phonograph is fragile and oil is going to
>hurt it is rather strange.
at the trouble they have with the clock that houses Big Ben.
The problem is that people will insist on putting oil or grease on the
cogs and then wonder why the gears strip. In the worst case they will
drop the whole mechanism into a bucket of oil; not understanding that
oil can act as a grinding agent as well as a lubricant. We merely stated
that if the motor is working well - leave it alone. Or do you disagree?
If it is a Columbia portable it will most likely have either a Garrard
or badge marked H.M.V. motor; we would be surprised if there was
anything urgent that needed to be done to it.
In point of fact if it is a later Columbia model (after the merger with
H.M.V.) if he unscrews the base board he is likely to find a paper
diagram with the greasing points clearly marked on it. ( A fact that as
a keen oiler and greaser we are most surprised you did not mention). We
would still advise caution using the maxim that it is the oil you clean
off and leave off that counts.
To quote the blessed Christopher Proudfoot in his book 'Collecting
Phonographs and Gramophones'
>'.....very often the old grease is still quite clean and provided it
>has not thickened too much, it is best left alone'
Anyone with experience of repairing clockwork (watches, camera shutters,
gramophones, tin toys) for other people will always have horror stories
about the bodged repair with an oil can that they have to make good.
The book you suggest is fairly good though.
Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves
<ham...@hotmail.com> writes
>Sorry, I should have mentioned that the country of origin is ENGLAND.
>The patent number I gave is the only number I can find on the entire
>unit, and it is located on what you called the sound box (the bit that
>lowers down onto the record). Does this mean I am going to have to take
>the thing to pieces to find a model number?
>
>Thanks again
Timothy Collinson
<mcki...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes
>Eh-Oh!!
>Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
>
>
>Ronnie
Teletubbies! What are you; a baby?
I'm a Tweenies man myself though I find myself attracted by the pre-post
modernist, non ironical, positive thinking of Bob the Builder. ('Can we
fix it? YES WE CAN') If only he did not mistreat his workers so.
Cyanogirl
>>I must not stick out my tongue at Uncle Ronnie
>Eh-Oh!!
>Me thinks Timmy it's too much of the Teletubbies for you.
>Sticky Needle Antiques
Yup, boys will be boys, no matter the continent.
George Conklin
>>hurt it is rather strange.
>at the trouble they have with the clock that houses Big Ben.
Gramophone and phonograph motors are vastly stronger than
those used for clocks. The are much more tolerant of hard
use.
>The problem is that people will insist on putting oil or grease on the
>cogs and then wonder why the gears strip. In the worst case they will
>drop the whole mechanism into a bucket of oil; not understanding that
>oil can act as a grinding agent as well as a lubricant. We merely stated
>that if the motor is working well - leave it alone. Or do you disagree?
I suggest you cite a refereed reference on the idea that
oil will cause gears to strip. It might gum them. However,
deciding that oil on a bearing is a lubricant and oil on a
gear is a "grinding agent" is something you will need to document.
Smorgass Bored
http://www.garlic.com/~tgracyk/
Doug
~>*(((>< Big fish eat Little fish ><)))*<~
Gear
number for this machine (212137-264263). Do you have any idea of the latest
date it could have been made?
"mike wilcox" <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39673B24...@sympatico.ca...
Timothy Collinson
<jep...@ntrnet.net> writes
> Gramophone and phonograph motors are vastly stronger than those used
>for clocks. The are much more tolerant of hard use.
>
>
interfere
>
>>The problem is that people will insist on putting oil or grease on the
>>cogs and then wonder why the gears strip. In the worst case they will
>>drop the whole mechanism into a bucket of oil; not understanding that
>>oil can act as a grinding agent as well as a lubricant. We merely stated
>>that if the motor is working well - leave it alone. Or do you disagree?
>
>
> I suggest you cite a refereed reference on the idea that oil will
>cause gears to strip. It might gum them. However, deciding that oil on
>a bearing is a lubricant and oil on a gear is a "grinding agent" is
>something you will need to document.
>
begins to go gungy.
Certainly oil on the gearing may cause them to slip. Surely one also
wants to keep oil off the governor mechanism. (or leather belt on a
phonograph. All good reasons for telling a novice not to touch a motor
unless he really needs to.
Ronnie McKinley
>I'm a Tweenies man myself though I find myself attracted by the pre-post
>modernist, non ironical, positive thinking of Bob the Builder. ('Can we
>fix it? YES WE CAN') If only he did not mistreat his workers so.
>--
Ah Timmy me boy, wait until you're 7 and three-quarters and then Buffy
the Vampire Slayer will seem more appealing than Bob the Builder.
Ronnie
=====
"Hey-hey, are you ready to play?
Why don't you come and play
It's time to come and play
Why don't you come and play with the Tweenies"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
mike wilcox
the numbers are for two separate patents 212137 being the earlier one , the
number 264263 is for the second patent which places the latest patent date
around 1926-27. Because of improvements made every year new patents were taken
out on a regular basis and marked on the item produced, so it is quite likely
your item is pre -1930.
Gear
so well :)))
"mike wilcox" <appra...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39677F99...@sympatico.ca...
George Conklin
Timothy Collinson <t...@jhenry.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <vNfl5.16$lz4....@news-reader.ntrnet.net>, George Conklin
><jep...@ntrnet.net> writes
>> Gramophone and phonograph motors are vastly stronger than those used
>>for clocks. The are much more tolerant of hard use.
>>
>>
>we agree which is why if they are working well there is no need to
>interfere
Phonographs motors were meant to be oiled fairly
frequently. Running them dry was not included in their
original design specifications.
>>
>>>The problem is that people will insist on putting oil or grease on the
>>>cogs and then wonder why the gears strip. In the worst case they will
>>>drop the whole mechanism into a bucket of oil; not understanding that
>>>oil can act as a grinding agent as well as a lubricant. We merely stated
>>>that if the motor is working well - leave it alone. Or do you disagree?
>>
>>
>> I suggest you cite a refereed reference on the idea that oil will
>>cause gears to strip. It might gum them. However, deciding that oil on
>>a bearing is a lubricant and oil on a gear is a "grinding agent" is
>>something you will need to document.
>>
>The problem lies two or three years down the road when the oil or grease
>begins to go gungy.
Motors were meant to be oiled far, far more frequently
than that. Abuse is abuse but oil is not an abrasive.
Grease can get hard too.
>Certainly oil on the gearing may cause them to slip. Surely one also
>wants to keep oil off the governor mechanism.
No, you want oil on the governor. I suggest you look at
Reiss for a minute on this subject, or even some original
instructions. Look, for example, at where the oil tubes on
an Edion DD ends up: right on the governor mechanism. Do
you think they did that by some sort of cosmic error?
Henry Collinson & Kristine Reeves
<jep...@ntrnet.net> writes
> No, you want oil on the governor. I suggest you look at
>Reiss for a minute on this subject, or even some original
>instructions.
Mea Culpa. Sorry you ARE right on this one. (which is why we have copied
this note to your mailbox as well as the newsgroup.) We were not
thinking -it was a Saturday night after all:-). You should oil the
governor friction pad as well as, of course, the governor bearings along
with all other bearings. We still maintain you want to keep oil off the
gearing teeth. We are not suggesting you run your motor dry merely that
it is oiled only where necessary. Anything else is not just bad practice
but can have a negative effect.
>
>
> Motors were meant to be oiled far, far more frequently
>than that. Abuse is abuse but oil is not an abrasive.
>Grease can get hard too.
>
>
Oil is NOT an abrasive but if dust collects on it; instant sandpaper.
This is surely why H.M.V. took the trouble to paste a diagram on the
inside of each of their machines making sure that only the right places
were oiled/lubricated.
Tina Sutherland
Gear wrote:
> Wow, so that means my player is pre 1930? Im pleased the thing still works
> so well :)))
>
Be careful, there are some pre 1930 people here and they still work
alright. ;-)
Tina - or so I hear....
George Conklin
><jep...@ntrnet.net> writes
>
>> No, you want oil on the governor. I suggest you look at
>>Reiss for a minute on this subject, or even some original
>>instructions.
>Mea Culpa. Sorry you ARE right on this one. (which is why we have copied
>this note to your mailbox as well as the newsgroup.) We were not
>thinking -it was a Saturday night after all:-). You should oil the
>governor friction pad as well as, of course, the governor bearings along
>with all other bearings. We still maintain you want to keep oil off the
>gearing teeth. We are not suggesting you run your motor dry merely that
>it is oiled only where necessary. Anything else is not just bad practice
>but can have a negative effect.
In a mechanical clock too much oil can cause it to stop.
But grease can collect dust too.
>>
>> Motors were meant to be oiled far, far more frequently
>>than that. Abuse is abuse but oil is not an abrasive.
>>Grease can get hard too.
>>
>>
>Oil is NOT an abrasive but if dust collects on it; instant sandpaper.
>This is surely why H.M.V. took the trouble to paste a diagram on the
>inside of each of their machines making sure that only the right places
>were oiled/lubricated.
>--
>John-Henry Collinson and Kristine Reeves Please do not send us emails
>as we never read them. Join the campaign to stop Unsolicited
>Non-commercial Emails NOW. Come and see us instead; we are down the pub.
I am glad that some oiling diagrams currently exist.
All in all, however, not all machines had them, and
obviously oil on bearing ends could collect dust too. This
does not even include old bugs, mouse nests, mud dobbers and
collected droppings from various rodents. However, why
should oil on bearings be exempt from your fears of dust
turning into sandpaper? After all, a governor is the most
fragile thing going. Right?
mike wilcox
Mike Wilcox
Ronnie McKinley
>As long as you don't wind them up too much Tina ;~)))
>
Ah! you're working like clockwork today, Mike.
Ronnie
----------
Rubber Band Antiques
-----------------------------------