Appaloosa Prototype on Blug?

[Christopher Murray]

Check it out in all it's blue-ness!

http://rivbike.tumblr.com

Cheers!
Chris

[Peter Morgano]

Hmm, me thinks I see some budget cutting lugs and construction, which is actually awesome because maybe it means this bike is coming to the lineup soon.

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[JL]

No tentacular stays? Cost saving measure?

Jason

[Anne Paulson]

Tragically missing octopus stays.

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

[Kevin Mulcahy]

A little superfluous for my tastes...Not my favorite RBW design.

Kevin
Chicago, IL

[cyclotourist]

Nice, but doesn't quite compare to Mark's Knobby Custom Cross a few blug posts down.

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[Peter Morgano]

Looks like stock Sam and Betty lugs which are great but not Homer and Atlantis fancy. If it takes big rubber it could be a winner.

[Jim M.]

Looks like a new version of the Hunq to me.

jim m
wc ca

[Jeremy Till]

"Of course, in Alabama, the Hunqaloosa."

Anyone? Anyone?

But oh yeah, the bike....WANT WANT WANT.  Makes me want to sell my new 29er and relatively new Long Haul Trucker, save up even more money, and buy one of these.  And 62cm would be just my size.  Even the color is perfect.  I'd keep the blue VP-001's (AKA Thin Gripsters) off my 29er and put them right on. 

Must get over to WC soon to ride this beast. 

[Coconutbill]

some similar lugs to my Toyo Homer top (tube/headtube).

does the current Sam have the same fork details? 

gorgeously understated.

[Michael]

The stays look tentacular. But not opposing tentaculation. Maybe it's a coordinated swim stroke.

That's a different fork crown lug than my 2013 blue Sam.

Cool that they have those rack mounting holes.

[Peter Morgano]

I am having a brain cramp. Is that lower lug the new one or the same off of the Betty?

[Tom Harrop]

Yes please! It looks like a long Bombadil to me. Same fork crown as my Bombadil, canti/v-brake posts, room for big tyres. Wonder what sizes they'll offer...?

[blakcloud]

Looks like an old school mountain bike to me. Take out the middle tube and what do you see?  I see an early 80's mountain bike minus the 29's.

I would hope that the smaller sizes would use a 650b wheel size. With all the great choices, including knobbies in 650 it would seem the best way to go.

Would I buy one? Not with 29's. At my height I think those tires are too big but I have read a lot of love for that size by some others on this board. With 650 I would certainly consider. Of course the price would have to be right. Price it like the Cheviot and I think it would sell.

[Ron Mc]

JL and Anne, I think the Octopus stays on Liesl's custom was a frame size constraint, but made for a gorgeous work of art.  This one is already in my size, and its killing me...

[Chris Lampe 2]

Looks like an MTB to me as well.  Bullmoose handlebar (I think....going from memory because I can't access the blog from work), canti-studs and 29'er knobbies........

[Matthew J]

> Looks like a new version of the Hunq to me. 

Much longer chain stays though.  

[James Warren]

Longer chainstays were reported to be the plan last summer for upcoming Hunqs.

I can't see the full clearance in the photos and the fact that they are calling it a "prototype" is still confusing me though. If they hadn't said prototype, I would be guessing that this is the new version of the Taiwanese Hunqs.

On Mar 12, 2014, at 6:38 AM, Matthew J wrote:

> Looks like a new version of the Hunq to me. 

Much longer chain stays though.  

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 11:26:23 PM UTC-5, Jim M. wrote:

Looks like a new version of the Hunq to me.

jim m
wc ca

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- 700x55

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Superfluous?

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[Clayton]

 I love Rivendell, but ick. I don't get it. I'd rather see a lugged, disc brake equipped 29+ for bikepacking. With a high enough BB to run 29er 2.0s. The ultimate touring bike, by Rivendell, as it should be. I'd have two wheel sets, one super fat and one not so fat. Quick change with discs. I will wait, patiently, for it is inevitable that Rivee will make such a bike. ;)

Clayton

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:29:31 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

[iamkeith]

By "octopus" stays, are you guys referring to the twin, Joe Breeze-style diaga-tubes?   If so, I agree that those were much more beautiful on Liesl's frame, than the single diagatube.    Seems like it could potentially save MORE cost too, by eliminating one big and rather intricate lug.

[Bill Lindsay]

That's got Keven all over it.  There was a provocative reference to forthcoming long-chainstayed model(s) in the Riv People movie that Jay produced (search Riv People on Vimeo).  Grant attributed all of that to Keven.  The Cheviut and now this one both have that attribute.

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:29:31 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

[JL]

Starting sometime in 2011 or 2012 Grant had some frames built with a second set of chainstays that extended from the added diagonal tube. These extra chainstays eventually morphed into a decorative option where the stays bent whimsically in opposing directions. The "tentacular" stays made it onto a few bombadils, the pre-order appaloosa models, and Leisel's custom, among others.  As this blue bike is a prototype is could be missing the special stays as a future cost saving measure, or as a cost/time reduction for prototyping. We will just have to wait and see.  

I have a hard time seeing the advantage of this bike model over the Cheviut or the Bombadil special order model. That said, it looks like it is going to be a great bicycle and I am sure everyone who buys one will be more than pleased.

Jason

[RJM]

I hope they make smaller models and they don't have the diagonal tube, which is not needed when going smaller.

 

 

I don't see this bike as a mountain bike, but rather a cruiser/commuter/rails to trails bike. They make an excellent mountain bike in the Hunqapillar and Bombadil already.

 

On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 10:29:31 PM UTC-5, Christopher Murray wrote:

[RJM]

I don't ever see Riv embracing disk brakes.

[Scott Henry]

What is nice about disk brakes is simply their versatility.   Build that frame for disk brakes and you give the most go anywhere, do anything bike on the road.   Run 700 narrow, 29'er wide, 650b, 26 by-anything.   All on the same frame and all without having to adjust anything.  

I see versatility as an inherently Rivish / Bobish ideal.   Old ways aren't always the best ways and change isn't always bad.  The next custom anything of mine will absolutely have disk mounts.   

Right now leaning towards a Shamrock Cycles Fluid Druid.

Scott

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[Shoji Takahashi]

Here's a link to the video Rivendell People:

https://vimeo.com/57271334

The reference from Grant on chain-stay length is ~28 minutes.

[oldmangabe]

It reminds me of the Breezer bikes that Joe built way back. Particularly the ones he and Steve Potts used when touring in New Zealand.

I've always really liked those bikes and the design, it is smart overall design if the materials used allow for the design. Otherwise it just seems to be visual flair. In this case I don't understand why the rear midstays curve up to the seatstays as they do. It appears to negate any possible triangulation/structural benefits of the midstays which may be wanted with the long chainstays. Ultimately I don't know, I didn't design the bike or spec the materials so this is all just my personal opinion and speculation. Sorry for sounding overly critical, not my intention.

It's an interesting bike and I like how Riv built it up to reference the older "rough stuff" touring bikes. Iterations on a theme. Dirt Cruiser Bruiser Bike.

Gabe

[Matthew J]

> Run 700 narrow, 29'er wide, 650b, 26 by-anything.   All on the same frame and all without having to adjust anything 

Possible in theory but certainly not something a bike company such as Riv would want to do.  

Wheel diameter tire width has a significant impact on a bike's ride quality and handling.  There is no way a frame can be designed to work well with multiple wheel diameters.  A bike designed with a specific wheel size range in mind will work best with that wheel size range and design.  

GP would sooner not have the sale if it means a bike that does a lot but nothing well.

[Scott Henry]

>>>Wheel diameter tire width has a significant impact on a bike's ride quality and handling.  There is no way a frame can be designed to work well with multiple wheel diameters.<<<

To an extent, yes.  To an extent, this is also the man who gave the XO-1 the ability to take a 26x1slick to a 26x2 knobby and was helpful in the reemergence of the 650b wheel to stick in all those 27" and 700c frames.   

Yes, the bikes will ride different.  No, it doesn't mean they will ride badly.

Scott

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[Garth]

Disc brakes for Riv ?   Me thinks not also.  

They have their cons too, just like every brake. This does not make it the best brake for all conditions, let alone the best brake.  

This article expresses some cons ....
http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/brakes.html

[clayton bailey]

Someday, disc brakes will be "old school" and Rivendell will embrace them. I might be dead then, but if Rivendell lives on, it will happen... Seriously, If I remember correctly, Grant has not ruled them out. He just hasn't found a need for them yet as the bikes they currently sell don't NEED them. A 29+ would need them as the rims are really wide.

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[iamkeith]

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:58:00 PM UTC-6, Matthew J wrote:

  There is no way a frame can be designed to work well with multiple wheel diameters.  A bike designed with a specific wheel size range in mind will work best with that wheel size range and design.  

Well as I see it, that's exactly the benefit of disc brakes.  You can achieve the exact same overall diameter using any two distinct, given rim sizes, just by varying tire casing sizes.  That's why fat 650b conversions work on frames that originally ran skinny 700c. Another cool recent development and example (this week, in fact) was the announcement by V-Rubber that they will be releasing a 650b tire called the "trax fatty," which will be about 3" wide and roughly the same diameter as a 2.1" 29er tire which is, in turn, about the same diameter as a 26" x 4.5" tire.   This means that I'll be able to run all three on my fat bike (the bike I ride more than any other).... without changing the geometry!!!

The Atlantis is specifically sold as being versatile enough to take a skinny road tire or a fat mountain bike tire - but in entirely different diameters!   I could sort of see where Riv could eventually embrace the idea of a bike that had this versatility, but by varying tire width alone, rather than by varying width WITH diameter as happens now. 

(Of course I say this as someone who still prefers cantis and who doesn't really expect it to happen either.  Fun to think about, though....)

[Matthew J]

> this is also the man who gave the XO-1 the ability to take a 26x1slick to a 26x2 knobby 

Many mountain bikes of that era could do this.

> helpful in the reemergence of the 650b wheel to stick in all those 27" and 700c frames.

Yes.  But I recall in his articles on the process GP had a checklist for finding the appropriate conversion candidate.  It was not just a matter of finding a bike and changing the wheel set.

> No, it doesn't mean they will ride badly. 

Nor does it mean they will ride well.

[Matthew J]

(Of course I say this as someone who still prefers cantis and who doesn't really expect it to happen either.  Fun to think about, though....) 

>  My skepticism is coming from the perspective of owning an Atlantis type bike with discs and not finding the wheel change optimal at all.   I also was not too keen on the Avid mechanicl discs, but acknowledge there has been advances since 2006

[iamkeith]

Funny you should mention that.  From what I understand, the technology of the Avid mechanical brakes hasn't changed a bit since they were released, and the BB7 is still always held as the benchmark.   However another rumor I'd heard recently - yet again fueled by fat bikes - is that TRP is releasing a dual-caliper mechanical disc brake soon, that will hopefully have better performance.  Polished silver finish, too!

[Matthew J]

> From what I understand, the technology of the Avid mechanical brakes hasn't changed a bit since they were released, and the BB7 is still always held as the benchmark.   

Haven't followed Avid since selling the Oswald.  I was thinking about the new SRAM and Shimano road hydraulics which are getting mainly good reviews (but there have been some raspberries as well).  I've seen a few positive blurbs on the TRP.  Not a whole lot out there yet.

[Kellie Stapleton]

I'm fairly new to RBW; I've had my Sam just over a year. So how does this go?…. an unnamed prototype? Does this mean it IS going into production and will be a new model? Or is interest garnered from HQ rides and reading all our posts?

[Tony DeFilippo]

Other than pannier clearance, what exactly are the benefits of the longer chainstays?

[cyclotourist]

Cantilevers don't have a limit to the size of rims they work with :-) As long as the frame is built with the right tolerances, cantis are pretty darn adjustable!

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Joe Bernard]

Kellie, there isn't much precedent for the process this particular bike has been through. Usually there's a prototype, it gets a name, it gets put into production. This "Appaloosa" started as a Mystery Bike which several folks signed up for sight unseen, then was revealed (original name, Rosco Bubbe) as a very long bike with the extra tubes, and no expectation that a front derailer would be fitted. It then went through a long gestation involving much name crunching; the extra rear stays developing the moniker 'tentaculer' (my claim to fame: I brought up tentacles first, then Grant named them); and a front derailer appearing. Now we have Appaloosa, and several versions of the bike have been built. We await further developments.

 

Joe "anyone correct me if I have any of this wrong" Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Matthew J]

An additional point about wheel and tire changes - the variety and quality of  700c tires has never been better.

It is fairly simple to duplicate the suggestions above with one wheel set and multiple tires.  For instance, rather than having separate 700, 650B and 26 wheel sets for fast, daily and OR riding, one could have a 700C wheel set built around medium width rims that would easily accommodate Compass Barlow Pass for fast road riding, Soma Xpress for every day (and even gravel road for that matter) riding, and after pulling off the fenders, the Bruce Gordon Rock n' Road for off road riding.

These tires all work well with cantis, v-brakes, or even the extended reach side pulls.  

Tires take up a lot less space than rims.

In the end I expect 95% or maybe more of the Riv market will ultimately decide on one type of tire they like best and not bother swapping no matter how easy it is to do so.  

[Leslie]

On Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:00:25 AM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

In the end I expect 95% or maybe more of the Riv market will ultimately decide on one type of tire they like best and not bother swapping no matter how easy it is to do so.  

Or, end up w/ another bike for the other tire... (N+1, right?) 

Similar bikes, but one's rolling on Hetres for most road work, the other on MSO's for mixed, and another on Rumpkins...   any one of the bikes could be set up more like a road bike, a rando bike, a gravel bike, or a tourer...  but each are now nuanced, so I can grab the one suitable for a particular ride (truth be told, any are good for most anything that the others are... but, if I had a long road ride planned and wanted to be quick, I'd not take the Bomba, but take the Ram instead....  if I wanted to camp, I'd take the Bomba instead of the Ram.... if I wanted to be quick on decent trails, probably use the canti-Rom....

So... the Appaloosa...
I like it.  But, w/ a tentacular Bomba, I don't see there being a 'need' for me to add one of these to the stable.  I did pick the Bomba over the Hunq, but there were things I liked about the Hunq; if I didn't have the Bomba, the Appaloosa might have been a good bike, a bit closer to the Hunq... They're all good. 

[RJM]

Maybe stability...I don't really know. I am a shorter dude so ride smaller bikes and the longer chainstays like on my Sam Hillborne (compared to my older bikes) seem to make the bike feel more stable.

[Matthew J]

> Other than pannier clearance, what exactly are the benefits of the longer chainstays? 

I restored and toured twice on this Trek 728:  http://cyclofiend.com/cc/2008/cc484-joelmatthews0508.html 

The long chain stays paired with the right wheelset and tires of course foster a very smooth and stable ride.  Optimal for the long back road X-country tours that were popular in the late '70s with the people then buying Treks.

That bike was not the best on roads with sharp turns, however.

On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:06:41 PM UTC-5, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Completely subjective response (and thus subject to skepticism if not dismissal), but my Riv Mystery Bike (a sort of pre-Appaloosa, pic here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8367710962/in/set-72157630957672582 ), which has 55cm chainstays, has the smoothest ride I've ever experienced, without sacrificing much if anything in sure-footedness or responsiveness, relative to my other Rivs without the long stays. It's a wonderful bike.

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[Kellie Stapleton]

So will smaller frame sizes be 650b?

[cyclotourist]

Are the seat tubes slacker to go with the longer stays? It sorta looks like that on the prototype, but can't really tell.

Cheers,
David

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Kellie Stapleton <kellie.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

So will smaller frame sizes be 650b?

[blakcloud]

Sorry to dredge an older thread but I thought I would share a photo that I took at the Bicycle Museum in Sakai City, Japan that I too last week. I had earlier commented on how it looked like an older 80's mountain bike and after seeing the bike below I am even more convinced.

The bike in the photo is 1 of 10 original Breezer mountain bikes built.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/87106495@N07/13749049105/in/photostream/

[eric wallacker]

 My assumption is that the proto-blue bike is the not-officially-named but aforementioned one-size-for the tall-guy (ME!) Clem Smith, Jr.

[eric wallacker]

Went to BBH on Main Street on rode the prototype. According to the employee, it is an updated Hunqapillar. Was a nice riding bike.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Pictures?

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[eric wallacker]

I didn't take a pic, if that is what you mean...
I had a particular interest in this protovelo due to my height (6'5.5") and as I previously posted was kinda hoping that it was one-size tall-guy off roady touring bike which has been lightly alluded to and discussed. Exactly the kind of bike I like and would ride everywhere/always.
I also had my PBH measured by GP. IIRC it was ~98cm. The bike felt pretty nice but Grant was dubious and said that likely just relative, and he had a point. Long story short: nice bike. Want one.

[Abcyclehank]

Can anyone compare the 62cm Prototype to a 60cm Cheviot from their test rides of each bike.
Is this the maximum size the prototype is expected to come in or has anyone heard about a larger size also.
I think just 1 longer chain stay frame is in order as my n+1.
I had preordered the latter but now am thinking of waiting for a potential new model. I am 6'6" 230lbs, own a 71cm non lugged custom Nobilette country bike, a 68cm Quickbeam, and a 64 cm Bombadil.

Thanks,
Ryan "Michigander who struggles to find large enough bikes for test rides" Hankinson