Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[lum gim fong]

Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 wihen they developed the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has realized this on their Roadeo.

[Mark in Beacon]

Was it on the web that you were reading this interview? If so, it would be nice to have a link. 

[Sky Coulter]

Grant’s write-up on the roadeo states that Marks 55cm built up weighs 18 lbs.

Sky in new west

[Ben Miller]

I believe when I first built my Roadeo up it was 21 lbs, without a rack, rando bag, and fenders. I could easily see it being sub 20 without my dynamo hub and lights. Take away the frame pump and Brooks saddle your even lower.

But then what's the point of the bike?? 😀

[lum gim fong]

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/first-look-rivendell-roadeo-steel-club-racer-22939/

[ted]

The 18lbs for marks bike was without pedals and saddle, but getting down to ~20lbs without anything not bolted on (e.g. pump, bottles, spare, tubes, tools) should be quite doable. That's about what my BMC Road comes in at.

[Mark in Beacon]

Thanks. Yes, I read that a while back, may have been posted here on another thread. My favorite line:

It has an integral chainstay bridge, and uses a slightly lighter seat tube, and the combo saves about 3 ounces, or about the same amount of weight you'd lose by spitting five times and cutting off a mullet.

Grant says he relied on help from Marc Muller to shave off another 4 oz (a quick pee and my winter beard).

There have been a few threads about the Roadini vs. Sam, I think this interview illuminates that discussion a bit, for those interested. Basically, the Rodeo is the stock model (ie, no Legolas or custom) that has the least amount of overlap with any others. Because, why not. With the Roadini being the tig version of the Roadeo, I would imagine that still holds true for the most part, although unlike the Roadeo, the Roadini does have seat stay braze-ons for a rack. And the tube set is a teeny bit heavier (but no lugs) so I would guess the target for a light but sensible Roadini build would be about 21-22 pds. Still weigh way lighter than my rigs these days, which I avoid weighing for the most part, though probably fall on a spectrum between mid twenties and low thirties. Weight generally doesn't phase me, but there is that psychological psych out factor that can create a mental burden and weigh you down. (Ha ha. Not really. I'm so fast I need to carry the extra pounds so my riding buddies can keep up with me.)

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 7:24:19 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/first-look-rivendell-roadeo-steel-club-racer-22939/

[RJM]

I had a 53cm Roadeo in Orange that I built up using fairly light weight parts and it was under 20 lbs...like 19.5 lbs if I remember correctly. It may have been a bit less but I wound up selling it when I bought a Trek Emonda SL6, which came in at 16 lbs with the same Rolf wheelset. Off the top of my head, here was the build:

53cm Roadeo with threaded headset and fork

Nitto s83 seatpost

Rolf Vigor RS wheels

25mm Continental gp4000s tires (originally had 32mm Stampede Pass tires on it but after I ran through those I switched to the GPs)

Full Ultegra 6800 groupset

bontrager Paradigm saddle

Nitto lugged stem

Mark's bars by Nitto

Look classic clipless pedals

As a racey road bike it did very well and I really liked it; very comfortable and fast bike. I was quite a bit faster on the Roadeo compared to the Sam I also had, which was the point for me. If I was going to do it again the only change I would do would be to get the threadless fork/stem option. I originally bought the Roadeo to be my only road bike and to ride with the club on fast, spirited paceline type rides and other centuries. The bike worked great for that. I bought the carbon bike on a whim and found I also enjoyed the ride and felt it scooted up hills faster. It was more responsive but also comfortable, plus the price was right. Since then, I've stopped road riding and have re-discovered mountain biking so now I'm fresh out of road bikes and have sold them all. lol.

Ryan (who is currently contemplating a Legolas custom to race cyclocross with)

[Tim Gavin]

My 59cm Roadeo was about 21.5# with classic parts:
28h Mavic Open Pro laced to Shimano 600 tricolor hubs
Nitto stem and bars
8-speed Campagnolo (Sachs version, actually) Ergopower shifters and derailleurs
VO 46/30 crank and VO cartridge BB
Brooks Pro saddle

so <20# shouldn't be hard with mid-range modern components.

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[JohnS]

Thanks for posting the article. My plan at this time is that a Roadeo would be next bike for the kind of riding it is intended for. It would replace my vintage aluminum Trek 1000 which I got for a very good price. It's good bike, lively and responsive, but the ride can be harsh compared to my QB and Salsa Casseroll. I think the Roadeo will fit the bill perfectly.

JohnS

[LBleriot]

Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 20 lbs.

[JohnS]

Isn't it still true that you can save 1/2 pound with a threadless steerer tube? Seems like that would help with getting to sub 20lbs. That's what I would prefer to have on my Roadeo, someday....

JohnS

[ted]

I think a half lb may be overstating it, keep in mind that just comparing stem and bar weights isn't the whole story since the threadles style needs a longer (and thus heavier) steerer tube. But most lightweight bars sold these days are 31.8, as are threadles stems whereas I doubt you'll find a light quill stem with a 31.8 clamp.
If your going to be a weight watcher going with threadles does make sense.

[Steve Palincsar]

Not sure what you mean by "lightweight bars" but the Compass Maes
Parallel and Randonneur handlebars are available in 25.4 diameter in
"superlight" versions that are under 300 grams; they can be used with
26.0 diameter stems with shims.   The bars also available in 31.8 diameter.

On 01/27/2018 05:40 PM, ted wrote:
> I think a half lb may be overstating it, keep in mind that just comparing stem and bar weights isn't the whole story since the threadles style needs a longer (and thus heavier) steerer tube. But most lightweight bars sold these days are 31.8, as are threadles stems whereas I doubt you'll find a light quill stem with a 31.8 clamp.
> If your going to be a weight watcher going with threadles does make sense.
>

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[ted]

Some mfg. quoted handlebar weights
  Nitto 176 (aka dream)                               315gr
  Compass Maes Parallel 25.4 superlight   289gr
  Ritchey wcs neoclassic                             260gr
  Ritchey wcs carbon neoclassic                 213gr

No doubt the Compass bars are fine, and I wouldn't call them heavy, but I do think there are a lot more sub 300gr bars on the market in 31.8 than 26.0 or 25.4 (I doubt that the Ritchey products are particularly unique). Also clearly there are lighter bars on the market (in 31.8) than the Compass "superlight" options.
If one wants to minimize the weight of a Roadeo frame, fork, stem and bars I believe that choosing the threadles fork option would be the way to go. Ready availability of lighter bar options plays a part in that.
No doubt readily available threadles stems are also lighter than quill options. E.g. a 110mm Nitto pearl is ~345gr and a 120mm Ritchey wcs 220 stem only weighs ~140gr. But the threadless stem needs to be clamped to a length of steerer tube thats not there with a quill stem setup, and I don't know how much that hunk of tube adds.

On the other hand I have an old Synchros 26.0 quill stem and Ritchey bar that weigh 437gr combined. That's about 197gr (or about .43Lb) less than the Nitto Pearl stem and Compass superlight bar combined. So I'm not convinced that quill setups can't be as light at threadless, but I am convinced that sticking to whats sold all over the place they aren't.



 

[Steve Palincsar]

However, it is worth mentioning that when it comes to handlebars, the
shape is at least as important as the weight and should factor heavily
in the choice.   The wrong bar is going to hold you back a lot more than
the weight differential would do.

[lum gim fong]

Some components have a function that pays their way in their weight.

For instance, I simply must have a Flyer saddle. 865g.
Worth every gram to me.

Also, 42mm, low pressur, supple tires for safety. Sure they are heavier than 23mm, but for safety, I don’t want to ride any narrower than 42.
Anything narrower than 32mm where I ride gets caught in road cracks and I have snagged tires and crashed. Broke my arm once. So 19-28mm tires are not worth the weight savings for me.
I need to roll over stuff and not get The front tire entangled and throwing me to the ground.

[lum gim fong]

Stems:
1. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 6cm/22.2/26.0/190-287g
2. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 7cm/225/25.4/22.2-328g
3. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/26.0- 296g
4. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/25.4- 299g

Handlebars:
1. Nitto 41cm (“410”) Model 177 Noodle-322g
2. Nitto 40cm (“400”) M151F bar- 339g
3. Nitto 52cm Aluminum Heat Treated Bosco Bar-384g

[JohnS]

Threadless head sets also contribute to the weight savings, no lock nuts nor lock ring. 

JohnS

[ted]

Suppose so, probly the only proper direct comparison would be threadless to threaded rodeo frame-fork-headset-stem-bars with buyers spec stem length, bar height (don't forget any spacers) and bars.
I suspect the weight savings for threadless would be closer to a third of a lb than a half. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than a third of a lb.
Furthermore, since I have an old quil bar and stem set that weighs about an oz more than a comparable set of threadless stuff you can buy new today, I think the weight savings is because of what's in production today and not the result of any inherent advantage of the threadless design.

[Christopher Murray]

From the Rodeo description page:

“Threaded gives you more bar-height potential (which translates to comfort, for most people) but weighs about 8 ounces more. It's probably the way to go if you're a solo rider wanting a light road bike with maximum comfort and classic styling. If you'll likely run your bars at or above saddle level, this is definitely the way to go from a functional and aesthetic perspective.”

It is not clear if that’s a complete bike or frame and fork.

Chris

[RJM]

Factoring in the headset weight differences and the weight differences between a Nitto Technomic 427g vs. a Bontrager race lite 189g road stem (just pulling these out of thin air) you might see a half pound difference. But, there is something about the classic styling of a nice quill stem on a roadeo that really sets it off. Plus, if you were going to be a weight weenie, I don't think you would be choosing a steel frame anyway.

[Bill Lindsay]

RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.

A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless makes it much easier.

Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a little more complicated and costly:

Take it completely apart
Weigh every single thing
Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense
Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is where you want it to be
Put it back together

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[ted]

If you want the bar height a Nitto Technomic gives threadless is not appealing, so I don't think thats a reasonable stem to do the weight comparison with.
I have a Nitto Pearl stem (11cm extension 26.0 clamp) that I weighed at 346gr. That's ~.35lb more than your 189gr for the Bontrager race lite. The threadless headset saves a few grams but you should also add for the star nut, top cap, and several cm of steerer tube.
I seriously doubt that is going to add up to an additional .15lb savings over the straight stem comparison.
Looking at quoted weights for Campi headsets on the Bens Cycles web site I come up with a 6gr savings for the threadless over the threaded version. I bet a star nut and top cap weigh more than that.

I would never argue with somebody who prefers the aesthetics and easy height adjustability of a quill stem over the weight savings of a threadless set up.

[ted]

Bill,

Once one starts down the weight weenie road, I'm not sure when the "nothing dumb" line is crossed.
Before I striped it (stealing parts to build up my BMC-Road), my old Gios "race" bike was ~19.5 lbs. That was with a Campi ergo 10sp drive train (mostly record), a bar and stem that saved ~.5lb over the Cinelli set it replaced, and cane creek ti short reach brakes. The only straightforward weight savings I saw for that bike would have been replacing the seatpost (old suntour superbe) with carbon or ti, and trading the speedplay steel pedals for ti ones.
Considering that bike, I'm skeptical about a sub 19 lb Roadeo being "straightforward". I doubt a Roadeo frame would be significantly lighter than that Gios (~5.6lbs frame fork and headset).
Are carbon rim wheels "dumb"? Are several hundred $$ cassettes "dumb"?

ted

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted asked questions and directed those questions at me. I’m not sure exactly what answers he wants from me. I’m reasonably confident I could build a 59cm Roadeo (my size) that weighs under 19lbs without making any decisions that I would consider dumb. I am supremely confident I could build a 57cm Legolas (my size) that is cross-race ready and weighs under 20 pounds without making any decisions that I would consider dumb.

Dumb is in the eye of the beholder
Straightforward is in the eye of the beholder

[Brewster Fong]

I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. Throw in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But really, how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to adjustment. Threadless is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?!

As for your question as to whether carbon wheels are "dumb?"  Depends on what you want. One reason why tubular tires are so popular again is that with a carbon rim wheelset, you can get a total wheelset under 1200g and 1000g is not unreasonable!  In contrast, a standard wheelset is around 1700g or so and carbon clincher wheelsets are around 1400-1500g.  So for the weight weenies, a tubular carbon wheelset can save as much as a pound.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/31/2018 12:34 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. Throw in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But really, how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to adjustment. Threadless is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?!

And yet, many times I've encountered riders on a club ride who had loose headsets -- threadless in all but one case (and he was screwing around with the headset the night before, didn't adjust it right and left the wrench in the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs into a 4 day tour in South Dakota!) -- and not one of those riders with threadless headsets had any idea how to adjust their headset.  Not a one.  Being a threaded headset user, I have no idea either, so we'ved asked around and not one single person on the entire club ride -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- ever had any idea how to adjust one.

So in my book, although there's unquestionably a theoretical advantage there, in practice it's meaningless since nobody seems to know how to do it.

[RJM]

The advantage being you can adjust a threadless headset with an allen key, which is on a multi-tool. Threaded you got to bring a couple of decent sized wrenches to adjust.

All this talk about headset weight got me to checking and it brought me to a website called weight weenies....I shut it down after about three minutes. Doood. At some point counting grams becomes dumb. lol.

but, I did find out that most threadless headset weights include the top cap and star nut.

As an aside and a little off topic - I'm currently building up my 1996 specialized stumpjumper because I was tired of looking at it all sad and in pieces in the garage so I had to buy a headset for it. I choose a Hope 1 1/8" headset because I could find one in an awesome red color and it came today. That thing is a work of art...same with the Chris King grip nut (lock nut?) headset I had on my Roadeo. Good components are just beautiful.

[lconley]

It has been 49 years since my 1st 50 mile ride and I have never found the need to adjust a headset while on a ride.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-5, RJM wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

It may be a MTB thing, but not a road thing.

[Jim M.]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

we'ved asked around and not one single person on the entire club ride -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- ever had any idea how to adjust one.

That's a fault of the user, not the technology. Do they actually do any work on their bikes? Threadless are easy peasy to adjust. Though -- like threaded -- if they're installed properly, you shouldn't need to adjust them on a ride. I use both and wouldn't claim one is better than the other. I'm getting a threaded NItto that has a removable faceplate, so it's the best of both worlds, I hope.

jim m

walnut creek, ca 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/31/2018 03:29 PM, Jim M. wrote:

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

we'ved asked around and not one single person on the entire club ride -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- ever had any idea how to adjust one.

That's a fault of the user, not the technology. Do they actually do any work on their bikes?

Obviously not -- at least, not beyond putting air into the tires.


But I didn't say it was a fault of the technology.  What I said was it was a theoretical advantage that failed to manifest itself in real life on account of user ignorance.

Threadless are easy peasy to adjust. Though -- like threaded -- if they're installed properly, you shouldn't need to adjust them on a ride.

Agreed.  Being totally ignorant of mountain biking other than seeing pictures of MTB riders falling from great heights into holes and such, I'm willing to accept the possibility that MTB may produce abusive situations where headsets do loosen in use on a ride. 

I use both and wouldn't claim one is better than the other. I'm getting a threaded NItto that has a removable faceplate, so it's the best of both worlds, I hope.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each system.  Threadless may have clearly won in the marketplace but I'm not convinced its advantages accrue to the end user as much as they do to the manufacturer. 

[ted]

Bill,
You seem to ask what I was asking.
I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light Roadeo. I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that you would chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that results in a sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I expect you've got better things to do.

Regards
Ted

[ted]

Though a threadless headset may be easier to adjust than a threaded one, adjusting the bar height with a quil stem is easier than adjusting it with a threadless setup.
An individual could reasonably prefer either one based on those characteristics.

[ted]

As Bill said dumb is in the eye of the beholder.
I take it in your eye carbon rim wheels (tubular or not) are not dumb. That's cool.
They certainly can save a fair amount of weight.

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted

I'm not sure what the point is, exactly.  Are you trying to test me on all possible bike parts, looking for me to say some part is 'not dumb', so you can say "gotcha! that part IS dumb!" ?  Do you sincerely want me to design your build list for you because you want to build a 19 pound Roadeo and don't know how to do it?  Do you suspect I'm wrong and you want to prove that I can't build a 19 pound Roadeo?  Or are we just killing time because it's Winter? 

Whatever it is, you are right that I have better things to do than to design a proper and complete build list in the way I normally approach builds.  I approach builds with a lot of forethought and deliberation, and I've gotten pretty good at it.  I'm not going to design a Roadeo build for you, but I'll give you something in the ballpark. 

My 59cm Black Mountain Cycles Road bike weighs 20.2 lbs (9171g) as pictured:

I categorize everything in five buckets:

A. Frameset (59cm BMC Road + Cane Creek 50 headset)
B. Wheelset (HED rims, 32 spokes, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica tires, SRAM 1070 cassette, standard tubes)
C. Drivetrain (Herse Cranks, White Industries Ti BB, Shimano SPD pedals, Dura Ace 10 F+R ders, Dura Ace downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain)
D. Components (Flite saddle, ultegra seatpost, Nitto Soba handlebars, Civia Bryant stem, Shimano mid reach brakes, customized tektro brakelevers, newbaums tape)
E. Accessories (bell, two ti cages)

A 19 pound Roadeo needs to be 545 grams lighter.  I assume the Roadeo frameset is a hair lighter than my $600 Black Mountain frameset, but I don't know for sure.  Assume they are the same.  I would save some weight by running a not-dumb all-metal wheelset.  I think carbon wheels are dumb.  Carbon sucks as a braking surface, and carbon clinchers with a metal braking surface are neither light nor affordable.  My current favorite not-dumb wheelset is the HED Ardennes Plus.  Its a 1610g wheelset, with 25mm wide tubeless ready metal rims.  Everybody smarts regards those rims as bomber, and Jenson sells the wheelset for $349.  not-dumb-wheels  That would drop about 150 grams.  I'd run Chinook Pass EL tires and light tubes, which would drop another 150 grams.  The 220 gram Flite saddle works for me, but the 145 gram also works for me.  A Dura Ace cassette which is half-ti costs $189 but it saves another 75 grams or so.  Don't run a bell, and a nice steel threadless stem would weigh about 70 grams less than the one I have.  That puts me right at 19 pounds with nothing dumb.  I think that maybe VO Gran Cru brake calipers might be a little lighter than the Shimanos, but whatever.  There are plenty of lighter 'road' pedals, but whatever.  My customized brakelevers might seem dumb.  I customized them to improve the shape and for the fun of the look, but it also reduced the weight to just under 100g per lever.  SRAM carbon levers weigh more like 125 grams per lever, and I could go find 50 grams somewhere else.  If the $2400 Roadeo is in fact a few grams lighter than the $595 Black Mountain, then I'd be ahead of the game. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[islaysteve]

Awesome build and post, Bill. Love the look of your BMC.   You've provided useful information for fantasizing about putting my Bleriot on a diet.  Realistically, I can remove the rack and get a lighter saddle than the Brooks.  Thanks, Steve

[Bill Lindsay]

This is the 145 gram saddle that works for me.  The Selle Italia SLR Titanium:  https://www.selleitalia.com/en/saddles/slr-titanium-black/

BL in EC

[ted]

Bill,

I don't know that there is a point.
I am not trying to test you.
I do not want to bicker about whether some part is "dumb" or not.
I do not want you to design a build list for me.
I don't think you are wrong, and I'm not out to prove anything.

I am interested in the reasoning behind your statement. I am interested in what component choices you might make on your own Roadeo to get down to 19lbs that you would not make if you were only shooting for say 20 or 21lbs, and I am interested if there are options you think of that would get it even lower but that you reject because you find them "dumb", and what those options might be.

I believe you have now covered all that very nicely in your post, which I appreciate.
Sorry about wasting/killing so much of your time.

thanks
Ted

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:02:58 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I’m happy that what I offered was useful to you. The hypothetical build list above was not a big time expenditure. A more thorough plan involves weighing everything individually and that was the approach I didn’t have time to take and I believe you weren’t asking for.

Best
Bill

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 01/31/2018 12:34 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. Throw in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But really, how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to adjustment. Threadless is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?!

And yet, many times I've encountered riders on a club ride who had loose headsets -- threadless in all but one case (and he was screwing around with the headset the night before, didn't adjust it right and left the wrench in the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs into a 4 day tour in South Dakota!) -- and not one of those riders with threadless headsets had any idea how to adjust their headset.  Not a one.  Being a threaded headset user, I have no idea either, so we'ved asked around and not one single person on the entire club ride -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- ever had any idea how to adjust one.

So let me get this straight. A guy is about to go on a four day tour and the night before he decides to "screw around" with the threadless headset. However, he has no idea what he's doing and then a couple of hours into the ride, the headset comes loose and he has no idea how to adjust it nor does he have a 5mm to fix it?!  Wow. I agree in that scenario, there is no advantage. I guess the advantage would be to a threaded headset as he would need two specific tools (32mm or 36mm) to adjust it.  In that case, the threaded headset would probably keep him from being tempted to "screw around" with the headset the night before a big ride.  Unbelievable.... 

So in my book, although there's unquestionably a theoretical advantage there, in practice it's meaningless since nobody seems to know how to do it.

In your scenario, where no one knows how to work on a threadless headset, I agree! But adjusting a threadless headset really isn't that hard and a lot easier than a threaded headset.

Of course, as you shown in your example, YMMV!

Good Luck! 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2018 01:13 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

So let me get this straight. A guy is about to go on a four day tour and the night before he decides to "screw around" with the threadless headset. However, he has no idea what he's doing and then a couple of hours into the ride, the headset comes loose and he has no idea how to adjust it nor does he have a 5mm to fix it?!  Wow. I agree in that scenario, there is no advantage. I guess the advantage would be to a threaded headset as he would need two specific tools (32mm or 36mm) to adjust it.  In that case, the threaded headset would probably keep him from being tempted to "screw around" with the headset the night before a big ride.  Unbelievable.... 

What I said was:  "...threadless in all but one case (and he was screwing around with the headset the night before, didn't adjust it right and left the wrench in the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs into a 4 day tour in South Dakota!)"

No, a threaded headset, and I guess he wanted everything just so completely perfect, but got tired before he finished and maybe dozed off and forgot he hadn't tightened it down.  And he left the wrenches in the van, which we'd left at the B&B.   In the area where we were, once you get outside Rapid City it's virtually all game preserves and little in the way of habitations, and certainly no place where you could find the wrenches needed to properly tighten a threaded headset.  Now you'd think that in itself would keep someone from messing around, but the urge to screw around with things the night before is hard to resist for some.  

One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass in front of the school.

[Patrick Moore]

Good luck indeed! I laughed at your description of the hapless and mechanically clueless cyclist who decides, night before the tour, to mess around with his headset. But with all the squeaky and chattering chains I hear out on the bike path, coming from riders in full kit with carbon fiber frames (not dissing kit or frames, just indicating that these indicate a certain enthusiasm for the sport), I'm not surprised.

My own experience: I've made quite a few sub-8 minute headset bearing adjustments and stem adjustments out on the road, with threadless systems, and just the 4 mm allen. I must say that, while I prefer the look of a Nitto Pearl (earlier, shinier model), I prefer the efficacy of the modern threadless system.

[Mark in Beacon]

Efficacy, especially as the end goal over others, is way over-rated, and generally comes at a price, albeit often not immediately apparent.

[Mark in Beacon]

This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?

I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass in front of the school.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more important than weight to me.

Toshi

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/

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[JohnS]

Nice build Toshi! Love the red.

JohnS

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:

I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more important than weight to me.

Toshi

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?

I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass in front of the school.

Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

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[Davey Two Shoes]

I think the real problem here is the Roadeo is simply outclassed in it's price bracket. You could easily get a custom geo steel road bike with a carbon fork fork less. If the plan is a lightweight steel build I'd say there are way better choices for your money.

If lugs are the the desire, why not get a vintage race bike?

[Patrick Moore]

First, it's not a problem, is it? Just a choice, except to the extent that a choice is a problem.

Next, you'll have to define and defend "outclassed. 

As to reasons to choose a Rivendell, they have an almost if not absolutely unique kind of fit and handling (I've owned 5), so that's one reason, if you like this fit and handling, and many do. The second is the quality; the builds are unsurpassed, or so I hear; I am not a builder and have to take this on faith. Others can comment on both reasons, I think.

If I were in the market for a top of the line road bike requiring no special features, I'd buy a Roadeo rather than one from a less known company or builder.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Davey Two Shoes <dgold...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the real problem here is the Roadeo is simply outclassed in it's price bracket. You could easily get a custom geo steel road bike with a carbon fork fork less. If the plan is a lightweight steel build I'd say there are way better choices for your money.

If lugs are the the desire, why not get a vintage race bike?

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Ryan Merrill]

You could get a vintage race bike, but then you are buying a used bike that may or may not be in your size, or your preferred color, and have wacky wheel spacing, or take weird sized seat posts, ect.

My Roadeo never rode like a vintage race bike. It wasn't near as twitchy...that's really the best way I can describe the difference that I've felt. It's quite a nice riding bike but I felt like it was unlike other race bikes I've ridden.

I consider the Roadeo a high end road bike frameset, and if you compare it price wise against other high end road bike framesets it's price, even the current price, isn't that far off. What's the price of a new Trek Emonda SLR frameset go for nowadays? 

but still, since I purchased my Roadeo frame, which I did wind up selling because I don't road ride anymore, the price has gone up six hundred bucks.

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:12:57 PM UTC-6, Davey Two Shoes wrote:

[Brewster Fong]

I agree in part. A Roadeo is currently listed at $2600 for the frameset, although if you read the text, it is listed at $2250, so maybe the price increased.  However, they only have like a 63cm in stock and I'm not sure what their eta for new ones are.

So what else can you get for $2600?  Well the 2018 Trek Emonda SLR frameset price has actually gone down, I believe it is now made in Taiwan (Giant?) instead of Wisconsin, to about $3000:

https://www.trekbicyclesuperstore.com/product/trek-emonda-slr-frameset-305218-1.htm

However, there are other steel builders out there who are cheaper like Roland Della Santa who I believe charges between $2000-2500, but you get what he wants to build.

Anyways, Roadeo is a good choice for those who like it. Good Luck!

[Mark in Beacon]

RBW Owners Bunch - Dedicated to the discussion of Rivendell Bicycles and products

[Davey Two Shoes]

Why not have Waterford build you something lighter if weight is a concern? Certainly they're not too obscure a company for RBW folk. I think for a lightweight road frame the roadeo cost more than it's worth. It's a weird starting point for a lightweight build. But I guess sub 20lb isn't actually that light. The only premium I see over most comparable custom options in the price range is the beautiful lugs. Idk, your bike your choice.

I'll gladly post my Waterford when it's done and we can all ridicule my dumb parts together :)

[islaysteve]

Funny, I was curious and so I spent a few minutes on the Waterford website today.  I quickly came to the conclusion that a "similar" lugged steel F/F from Waterford starts very close in cost to the $2600 point and goes up from there.  So you have a choice:  Buy a Rivendell (made by Waterford), get the Riv look, ride, lugs, decals and color of your choice; or buy a Waterford and get their look, etc, with the choice to spend even more money on fancier lugs, chrome, fancy paint, etc.  Individual choice, no right or wrong. 

I'd love to see your Waterford when it's finished.
Cheers, Steve

[Brian Campbell]

Not sub  20 but currently 21 lbs.(without saddle bag and water bottles).

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Bill,

Your recommended $349 "not-dumb" wheels seems to be discontinued at Jenson.
What would you get today for a hopefully not dumb Roadini?

Thanks,
Jay

[Belopsky]

I've decided to go bar-end on my Gunnar (snow and cold makes Igor work and not ride bikes..) so I will be swapping bars and maybe stem and etc..

Without pedals, bars (but stem), shifters, cables my Gunnar weighs 19.8lbs = 8981.13grams

Each tire (Maxxis Rambler 700x40) is said to weigh 400g so not that light at all. If I go down to 35mm like the Bon Jon then that brings me down to 8,797.13grams which is a good savings but regardless I don't know if I could get this bike down to 21lbs or less?

I don't know what my Shimano RX100 levers weigh, or what the bar-ends and cables would add, but bars are around 300g (I have a 31.8mm stem and regular reach 31.8 are hard to find?) So anywho, that brings 9097.13g so a tad over 20 without levers, shifters, cables and pedals, but sounds do-able?

[Bill Lindsay]

Jay in Tel Aviv asked me to recommend wheels for his Roadini

I still think the HED Ardennes are still nice wheels for the price.  The price today is $700, but I don't know of another $700 wheelset that I would prefer.  It's a bummer you didn't jump on them when they were $350, but they are still good wheels, in my opinion.  You have to jump at deals when you see them, if you want to get deals.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito CA

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks Bill. Appreciate the response.

[tc]

Toshi, what a great shade of red!  I was thinking of red for my next build - care to share what the name/code of that red is?

I also recall  a nice red on one of the garage sale Roscos last year, but they took it down before I could save the pic and inquire about that shade.  But I like your shade of red better :)

Tom

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:

I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more important than weight to me.

Toshi

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?

I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass in front of the school.

Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

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[Patrick Moore]

Toshi: A bit late to the party, but very nice Roadeo. 

How do you like the Kojaks? And why Kojaks rather than a Compass tire? I've used Kojaks on 3 bikes, and for a "non-premium" tire that resists thorns, they're pretty good indeed. But I'd think you'd want a premium tire for such a nice bike.

[Bill Lindsay]

On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:

It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is handlebar tape and a water bottle cage. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.  

A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless makes it much easier.

Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a little more complicated and costly:  

Take it completely apart
Weigh every single thing
Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense
Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is where you want it to be
Put it back together

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Jim M.]

Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if you did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.

jim m

walnut creek, ca

[Bill Lindsay]

That is a fact.  Dremel is a weight savings tool.  I did cut off the seatpost to 2.5" of sunk depth and that saved me 22g.  I celebrated the 52g of chain I got to cut off, thanks to my 1x drivetrain and SHORT chainstays.  The steertube weight reduction was 49g. 

Maybe I'll do some skids to lighten up the tires.  :)

Bill

[Patrick Moore]

Yeah!

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Thanks Tom,

I think that was the cherry red from the Waterford list.  I was expecting it to be darker, but I like the way it turned out.

I'm sure the Riv folks would be happy to look up my order for the color if you are interested in getting one too!

--Patrick, I use Kojaks in the winter to have a little more flat resistance and Grand Bois Cypres otherwise.

I definitely like the GB ride quality better.

Toshi

[Bill Lindsay]

Thank you for the kind words to all who approve of my new Legolas, and thank you for the discretion to all those who disapprove.  This build started as a conceptual Rivendell Custom, but in my conversations with Mark and Grant, this is where that ended up.  My intent was to build my favorite Rivendell, and I'm very pleased with how it turned out.  My build is complete now.  I added black Newbaums with two coats of shellac and a carbon water bottle cage.  I swapped out the silver steel water bottle bolts for black alloy ones.  The total weight is 19.4 pounds and ready to roll.  I might have to wait until Monday to actually take it on a proper ride, since I'm prepping for another race-day tomorrow. 

Now my stable is packed to bursting.  I have a lot more bikes than a normal person needs, but every bike has its purpose and place in my life, and I don't think there are any that I'm planning on actively ignoring or passing over.  Nobody asked, but in case you are curious, there is a downtube cable housing stop for a front derailer, so I have a 2x drivetrain option for the future if I decide I want more gears and more range.  The tiny build detail that is on my bike that I've never seen before was a special touch Mark performed when prepping the frame for me.  I have fender attachment points at the seatstay and chainstay bridges (normal).  You want to plug those holes with bolts so mud and rain don't get in there and rust outward (normal).  Mark installed tiny M5x0.8mm stainless grub screws, instead of water bottle bolts.  In the last photo you can see my seatstay bridge and you can see where the fender will attach, but you can't see the tiny grub screw plugging the hole.  It's SUPER clean, and an incredibly nice touch.  I'm going to go buy some of those grub screws for that application on my future builds.  Thanks Mark! 

Again, the color is called "amethyst smoke" which reminded me of Mel Torme's nickname "The Velvet Fog".  I might call my bike "Mel Torme".  I also thought about calling him "Sal", short for Salogel, (Legolas backwards).  That name occurred to me because Rivendell can't promote any LotR named bikes, but they already have the Legolas artwork.  They should mirror image the Legolas artwork and do a run of Salogel cyclocross race bikes for us to buy.
 
Happy Spring

Bill amethyst-smoke Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[RichS]

Bill, your Legolas is so classy and elegant with the amethyst smoke paint and black parts. I'm sure Mel Torme would approve.

Best,

Richard

[Virgil Staphbeard]

Ha I'm glad I read the last paragraph because I was going to comment on the lack of bolt on the seat stay bridge. You may want to use beeswax or some mild loctite on the set screw. I used set screws on some unused bottle cage bolts in the past and one worked its way into the seat tube. Luckily it was easy to get out, but the seat stay bridge could be another story. 

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Lum Gim Fong]

Guess I should chime in now that I own one.

This build minus saddle bag, minus the chainstay bartape wrap, plus a Secula plus seatstay dyno light is 22.9lbs.: https://flic.kr/p/2abdqa7

In comparison, my Carbon/Aluminum 2009 Defy 3 was 20lbs, iirc without pedals.

So not sub 20lbs. But looks like it could easily be with lighter components on it.

But  I like the functionality and how everything work great together on this bike the way it is.

Build:

Nitto M151F bar

Lizar skins blue wrap

Tech Deluxe stem

Tejtro TRP RLL drillium brake levers

Tektro R559 brakes with Swissstop blue pads

Yokozuna shifter and brake cables/housings

SUN XCD DT shifter clamp

Right Silver shifter

NO front derailer.

Microshift rear R10 derailer

SRAM PC8something chain

Shimano HG-something 8-speed 11-32 cassette

Sugino XD2 double crank 34/43 chainrings.

Front wheel - SON widebody/Sapim spokes/Pacenti Brevet rim 32 hole

Rear wheel - VO Touring hub/Sapim spokes/Pacenti rim 32 hole

GB Cypress tires

Qtubes

B&M IQX dyno head light

Secula Plus for seatstay rear light

[Lum Gim Fong]

Oops Tektro R539 brakes.
And forgot to mention Selle Anatomica X2 saddle on a Kalloy rivstock seatpost.