Joe Appaloosa -- 100 mile report, whimsical photo and Want To Scavenge post

[Bill Lindsay]

I love my Joe Appaloosa.  It is a freaking great bike.  I did my 35 mile hilly commute to work again today and I just love how I can ride as hard as I like and still arrive at work fresh.  I'm not saying the Joe Appaloosa is a club race bike, and I'm not saying you will be able to keep up with your road-bike friends on group rides.  I'm not even suggesting that you will match your personal bests on Strava.  What I am saying is that the Joe Appaloosa is remarkably easy to ride.  It is stable and predictable, yet plenty maneuverable and agile.  When it's loaded, it takes some effort to get it moving, but once it gets moving it keeps moving.  It poured yesterday, and I bombed the wet roads with my fat tires with no concerns.  My front-load setup continues to work great.  I confess I did change out the Sun Race shifters (which I like) with the short and stubby Silvers that come as part of the IRD Silver SOS Shifters (which I love).  On my ride through Hayward, I pass Tennyson Park, which has a small skate park.   I've often thought of riding my Rivendell timidly on the ramps and such, and did, very timidly.  

Joe shreds?

Now my Want to Scavenge part of my post:

You bought a 58cm Joe Appaloosa.  You are a crank arm length zealot and you only ride 175s.  You can't stand that your 58cm Joe Appaloosa came with weird 173mm crankarms, and want to change them out, and are grumpy that your complete bike is now going to cost you more to make perfect.  Sell your 173mm Silver crankset AND bottom bracket.  I offer to pay $140 shipped (to El Cerrito CA) for a set of 173s.  

 

You bought a 700c wheeled Joe Appaloosa.  You are a "supple tire" zealot and only ride tires that are Jan-approved.  You can't stand that your Joe Appaloosa came with "stout" tires, and are grumpy that your complete bike is now going to cost you more to make perfect.  Sell your Kenda Kwick Bitumin tires to me.  I offer to pay $60 shipped for a pair.  

Bill call-me-Joe Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[William R.]

Lol! You're a funny guy Bill! I got a 58 and I'm keeping everything! I love the 173s and the tires, while not currently in use, will get used. One thing we share brother: love for the Joe Appaloosa! I'm too busy in my spare time riding it to write more at this time. I will do some kind of six-week review blog in... Five weeks!

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Lungimsam]

How dors it feel going uphill, compared to your other rivs? Easier/harder to get up them hills?

[Bill Lindsay]

Meditate on Rule #10:

Rule #10

The harder I pedal the faster it goes. I have not done a Strava comparison to quantify my speed output relative to my perceived level of exertion input.  I can ride it as hard as I like, and if I work harder it goes faster.  If I ease up it goes slower, just like my other Rivendells, and just like all my other bikes.  

[Patrick Kelly]

This may sound trite, but I'm gonna jump to amplify one word Bill
used: easy. Riding my Appaloosa also struck me also as being "easy".
It's a word that came to me when riding mine, but it sounds too
trivial, almost, to speak of. I suspect that riding in a more upright
position affects my riding attitude. I feel less aggressive, and more
relaxed. But, I did find it was easy to go quick, too. I expect to
find that my Joe will be at least as fast as my old bike (which is
fairly tank-like).

Relative to handling, I found that it was not a big deal. I'm not a
super-cyclist by any means, but when people see the super long
chainstay, they assume it's got to ride differently. My friend and I
compared wheelbases between his bombadil and my joe app. His wheelbase
is actually a fraction of an inch longer. This is because he's taller
and has a much bigger bike. The chainstay is shorter on his, but
overall, they are nearly the same length. Point being that even with a
"radical" long chainstay, the bike is not really radically long. Are
there a lot of 6'2" people complaining about how their bicycle is too
long to navigate? I don't think so.

A curious thing, to me, was that I found myself pulling up on the
handlebars on acceleration. I assume it's the difference in riding
position. I guess that since I'm not leaning so heavily forward,
there's not as much weight on my feet/legs. It's not anything
stressful, it was just something I discovered I was doing.

It's also been mentioned (in some thread about Joes) that the rear hub
is loud. It's not the loudest I've heard, but it is louder than
average. Personally I find this to be a feature, since you can stop
pedaling a bit when coming up behind people and they may hear you
coming. It's less alarming than a bell.

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[Kainalu]

I wish I could experience the Appaloosa, but I'm out of proportion for it. Excited for it's huge cousin Clem coming out this summer, looking forward to a ridiculously? long wheelbase.
Anyways, I wanted to back you on the loud freewheel thing being a plus. I had an Ultegra ultrastealth bird watching hub for awhile and found myself having to ding all the time, now with a cheaper/louder/stronger Deore I can lay off the bell.
-Kai
Brooklyn

[WETH]

Bill,
Glad the bike is treating you well. It looks great, too.
Erl

[WETH]

[Tim Gavin]

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Patrick Kelly <phlat...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's also been mentioned (in some thread about Joes) that the rear hub
is loud. It's not the loudest I've heard, but it is louder than
average. Personally I find this to be a feature, since you can stop
pedaling a bit when coming up behind people and they may hear you
coming. It's less alarming than a bell.

FYI, you can quiet most hubs by putting a tiny bit of oil or light grease on the pawls (after removing the cassette and freehub).  Phil's Tenacious oil is about perfect for this application.

The product description of the Silver Hubs says: 

"They disassemble easily, so you can -- if you want to--add more grease to the pawls and silence them even more."

I bought the Velo Orange Grand Cru touring hub, and found it to be pretty loud as well.  I added a tiny pea-sized dab of grease to each pawl and it's much quieter.  Be careful with grease; too much of it can make the pawl springs sticky and ineffective.

[Lungimsam]

Louder pawls make the bike coast faster! ;)

I like the sound of my Deore and Velocity hubs. They arent too loud. I like to hear them tick when Im coasting. Feels good.

Once I heard a person with a very loud and plasticy sounding hub. I wouldnt want to ride with that one.

[Kainalu]

Check out the solid sounding frequencies coming from a White Industries freewheel some time, it's an amazing clear the wayer/faux motor rumbler
-Kai
Brooklyn NY

[cyclotourist]

Loud pawls save lives or something like that.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Patrick Kelly]

"Loud pawls save pals" ?

[Joe Bernard]

I suspect this "easy to ride" feature is similar to my long-chainstayed CLEM. I don't know if the chainstays are the cause, but the bike has a decided proclivity to want to keep going once spun up..almost like there's a slight tailwind, or a micro-motor in the bottom bracket. It's fun!

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[Ryan Fleming]

The Eno's not that bad...you can hear it, though

[Bill Lindsay]

"It's also been mentioned (in some thread about Joes) that the rear hub
is loud. It's not the loudest I've heard, but it is louder than
average. Personally I find this to be a feature, since you can stop
pedaling a bit when coming up behind people and they may hear you
coming. It's less alarming than a bell. "

Back to rear hubs.  This one is amazingly easy to take apart.  From the moment my Appaloosa was hanging on its hook, pre-overhaul, to the moment it was hanging back up after I was done, was maybe 5 minutes.  It comes apart with two 5mm allen keys and one 10mm allen key.

1.  Drop the rear wheel
2.  Pull the cassette (optional)
3.  Use the two 5mm keys to unscrew and remove one endcap
4.  10mm key goes in the exposed axle, and a 5mm unscrews the other endcap
5.  Pull the freehub body off with your hands to expose the pawls which live in the hubshell.  The drive ring is part of the freehub body

I used Finish Line Wet chain lube to quiet it down just a little, and threw it back together.  Super easy.

Anyway, the notable highlight that really struck me was in contrast to the high end Mavic wheels I've overhauled recently for the race team.  One set of Crossmax and one set of Ksyrium.  Both these really expensive Mavic wheels have exactly two pawls for freehub engagement.  Each pawl engages with one notch in the driveshell.  This Silver hub has SIX pawls, and each of those six pawls engages with two notches.  It's a much nicer design.  I know Rivendell didn't design it, but it's a solid design and I'm glad they selected it. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[William R.]

Hi Bill. I too have been admiring the construction of the rear hub. And the ease of taking it apart. I had a problem though. I needed to take mine apart because on my first ride the rear freewheel mechanism locked up. When I took it apart and looked at the pawls I was amazed that there were six of them! Very nice. I think it jammed because there was some very sticky white grease on the pawls. I cleaned it out with wd-40, let it dry and applied chain oil. I use chainsaw bar chain oil. The hub operates beautifully now. I noticed when I had the hub opened up that one of the areas between the pawls had a grove in it (see photo). Actually, on closer inspection of the photo I see a smaller second groove closer to the pawl on the right. I wonder if this was a result of the jam or the cause. Or was it the grease? I feel like the grease had something to do with it. Could one or two of the ratchet gears get caught there like that? The photo was taken after I cleaned the grease out. Everything is working well now and I've been riding it a lot since this happened. I can't really wrap my head around what could have happened there. Any thoughts? Anyone?

Bill in Westchester, NY

[Mark in Beacon]

I don't want to be too critical here, Bill, or wander off topic, but the point on your pencil is...sub-optimal, to put it politely. We have a guy here in town that specializes in this, might be worth a look. You are just a bit south of us.

http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/

When you say the mech locked up, do you mean it came to a complete and final halt, or it temporarily froze up and then released, only to do it again intermittently? Also, does anyone know if these are the same hubs that came stock on the Clems as well?

[Mark Reimer]

I can't imagine how anything in there could cause that groove. The pawls can't move any direction other than in/out. MAYBE if some kind of debris got in there, or if you chipped a tooth on a pawl or the ratchet ring, perhaps that was smashed into the hub body while under load. Any sign of broken teeth anywhere?? Very curious. 

Nice freehub design though. It's very similar to Industry Nine, which Paul uses in their RHUBs. 6 pawls, each with multiple points of engagement, makes for a buzzy hub but very quick engagement and a nice distribution of the load. Not sure if you can do this or not, but Industry Nine says you can remove three of the six pawls if you want, which makes it quieter and less drag, while sacrificing the 'immediate' engagement a bit. I personally have no idea why anyone would want to do that, but to each their own. 

[Lungimsam]

Wow. Amazing what it takes to make a bike.
Look at all those teensie parts, clips, grooves, etc.

Puts a new light on " I cant find the source of the creaking my bike makes.".

[William R.]

Ha! Good one Mark! I personally artisanally sharpened that pencil for the soul purpose of using it as a pointer in that photo! Sub-optimal indeed...

When I say it locked up, I mean it became effectively a fixed gear. I could not get it undone from that condition until I returned home and took it apart. It has not locked up like that since.

Bill in Westchester, NY (Yes, not too far south from you. We should meet up and compare our Rivs sometime, I would like to see a Clem in the wild.)

[William R.]

@ Mark Reimer: It was very clean when I took the hub apart. Besides the white grease (which was very minimal), it was as you would expect a new hub to look, very clean and new. There was nothing loose in there. But I do want to open it up again and inspect the ratchet ring, maybe I missed something there. It is working well now though and I'm having great rides on this awesome new bike!

[Lungimsam]

Maybe he will have tire inflating episode on Nat Geo one day. Perhaps that requires too many movements for a deep analysis.

Maybe a "Raising your kick stand" episode.

[Mark in Beacon]

Would love to get a Rivish ride/get together around the gateway to the Hudson Highlands. Stay tuned! (And really, I didn't mean to be so blunt. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you did pretty good for a pencil-sharpening dilettante!)

[Bill Lindsay]

Bill In Westchester

Short answer, I assume there was a loose body floating around and that caused the jam, and the groove is the result of that jam.  Whatever that loose body was, you cleaned it out when you cleaned out the grease.  The Mavic Crossmax rear wheel that I just tried to fix has extreme grooving in a regular pattern around the hub shell which was originally smooth

What you are looking at is the recess where one of two pawls would sit, and the grooved surface to the right of that recess is supposed to be smooth.  Something broke off or got in there and got dragged around the hubshell making that nasty groove pattern.  The pawls themselves are damaged, and I assume that bits of metal that broke off these pawls was what got dragged around.  I'm going to replace them with some aftermarket pawls that are marketed as being superior to the stock Mavic parts.  I'd guess that it's 50/50 that it will work, and this kid (one of my high-school bike racers) might have to spring for a new rear wheel.  If I can get the new pawls to stay put, and they remain in one piece, though, it should work for another season or two.  It will be on my offseason checklist to check this kid's freehub again.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito Gauchos Team Mechanic

El Cerrito CA

[William R.]

Whoa. That's a whole different take on a freewheel. I've never had to deal with one like that. I have an Aksium rear wheel kicking around that I don't use. I wonder if it's the same kind of design.

[Mark Reimer]

Yikes!!!! Can you purchase an entire freehub replacement? I did that with a Phil Wood hub before

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[Mike Shaljian]

You wouldn't believe how (actually) useful a Hope hub is for waking people out of a smartphone zombie state. Super useful for riding through congested areas on college campuses or for alerting hikers on trails.

[Bill Lindsay]

Mark

That's the problem.  That grooved up mess IS THE HUBSHELL.  It is inextricably the hub body itself.  The replaceable freehub body is steel and looks perfect.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, Ca

[Mark Reimer]

Oh whoa, I didn't realize that. That is an odd hub design. Man.... bummer!!

[Josh Imler]

I purchased an Appaloosa frame on Monday. I'll currently prepping the frame with BoeShield. I'll post pictures when things progress. I'm happy to be part of the RBW Owners Bunch!

On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 11:17:44 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I love my Joe Appaloosa.  It is a freaking great bike.  I did my 35 mile hilly commute to work again today and I just love how I can ride as hard as I like and still arrive at work fresh.  I'm not saying the Joe Appaloosa is a club race bike, and I'm not saying you will be able to keep up with your road-bike friends on group rides.  I'm not even suggesting that you will match your personal bests on Strava.  What I am saying is that the Joe Appaloosa is remarkably easy to ride.  It is stable and predictable, yet plenty maneuverable and agile.  When it's loaded, it takes some effort to get it moving, but once it gets moving it keeps moving.  It poured yesterday, and I bombed the wet roads with my fat tires with no concerns.  My front-load setup continues to work great.  I confess I did change out the Sun Race shifters (which I like) with the short and stubby Silvers that come as part of the IRD Silver SOS Shifters (which I love).  On my ride through Hayward, I pass Tennyson Park, which has a small skate park.   I've often thought of riding my Rivendell timidly on the ramps and such, and did, very timidly.  

Joe shreds?

Now my Want to Scavenge part of my post:

You bought a 58cm Joe Appaloosa.  You are a crank arm length zealot and you only ride 175s.  You can't stand that your 58cm Joe Appaloosa came with weird 173mm crankarms, and want to change them out, and are grumpy that your complete bike is now going to cost you more to make perfect.  Sell your 173mm Silver crankset AND bottom bracket.  I offer to pay $140 shipped (to El Cerrito CA) for a set of 173s.  

 

You bought a 700c wheeled Joe Appaloosa.  You are a "supple tire" zealot and only ride tires that are Jan-approved.  You can't stand that your Joe Appaloosa came with "stout" tires, and are grumpy that your complete bike is now going to cost you more to make perfect.  Sell your Kenda Kwick Bitumin tires to me.  I offer to pay $60 shipped for a pair.  

Bill call-me-Joe Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Broccoli Cog]

Hi Mark, I live in the Saratoga Springs area and would love to come down for a Rivish get together! 

Tim

[Broccoli Cog]

Beautiful bike Bill. I love the way you have it set up!!