PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Glen]

Steep and Cheap has VP-001 and Vice along with some others on sale right now.

$33 for the 001s and $30 for the Vices

There was a discussion about the Shimano A530s on here a while ago, they are on sale too.

www.steepandcheap.com 

[Daniel D.]

thanks for the heads up!

[Leif Eckstrom]

Thanks, Glen. Love the Vice pedal. They have black and silver colors for $30. I picked up a silver pair.

[Joe Bernard]

I got the Bauhaus pedal. I'll bet Grant would like these simple cheapy pedals..reflectors!

[iamkeith]

I appreciate a good heads up as much as the next guy, but i do think we need to reign in the discussions about shopping elsewhere besides Rivendell - at least on this forum. As Grant put it recently (in multiple ways and places, actually), a business like theirs lives and dies with sales.

[iamkeith]

[Patrick Moore]

I'm tempted to agree, except that this isn't an official Riv website. What do others besides me and Keith think? And where do we draw the line? I would guess that selling used, Riv-approved or Riv-compatible stuff onlist is not de trop?

I want to know, because I want Rivendell to succeed, and I read Grant's recent post about cash flow and the sad state of local bike shops and small retail generally.

Patrick Moore, who just wrote (professionally) a bio for a woman who has made great success of a small town flower shop -- kudos to her!

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:06 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

I appreciate a good heads up as much as the next guy, but i do think we need to reign in the discussions about shopping elsewhere besides Rivendell - at least on this forum.  As Grant put it recently (in multiple ways and places, actually), a business like theirs lives and dies with sales.

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[Belopsky]

You know what? I disagree 100%.

[Patrick Moore]

One more thought. I personally would willingly consider limiting FS posts on this list to Riv-compatible things. Dale over at Classic Rendezvous manages to keep FS and all other posts very strictly in line with his list's ethos, and to do it rigorously but nicely.

("Riv compatible." Either a can o' worms or a well defined category. Listmeister?)

[iamkeith]

Just my thought- nothing more. Hard to express as gently as intended, over the internet and from the keyboard of a smart phone. Definitely dont mean to be critical of anyone - I'm guilty as anybody. For unrelated reasons, the recent talk about business struggles just strikes a chord with me. And I kind of feel like a riv specific forum should be about sharing the joy and giving back when we can.

[Garth]

Fwiw, I have been reading Riv stuff since the very late 90's and I cannot recall a year in which their budget was not discussed in some way. Every business likely has such discussions in some form or fashion about budget whether private or public. Regardless, here they are today 2017, so something must be happening in their favor to still be.

I have also experienced the implied pressure to to buy things from them in some way. But hey, this is no different than any business that is favored, you like shopping there and want it to continue. It's like you become attached to it in a way, but if that turns into a sense of responsibility and obligation for it's very existence....I would be fooling only myself.

So hey, if we are speaking of "just riding" and riding like we are kids, these metaphors express life itself, not just parts of it since that is setting more of the very conditions we are supposedly being free of. Simply BEing..... is unconditional. Celebrating BEing for the simply fact that I Be. So too, "just shop".... shop like a kid.... like venturing the corner store down the street on the banana seated bike to buy a Baby Ruth bar and a Slo-Poke to savor over the weekend.

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

We love these pedals and spec them on a lot of customer bikes. For the handy tinkerer, they can be rehab'd inexpensively with a rebuild kit.

Calling out my obvious bias on the topic.....Large volume online blowouts like this have a real effect on small businesses. It's undeniably short-sighted and only serves immediate cash flow needs. Some brands do a better job than others to control this from happening.

IMO to post an item that's listed for sale on the Riv website is.... not nice. I'd be happy to defend my theories off list with anyone who argues in favor of the "free market" theory.

Don't take this post as shaming, it's not my intention. I'm only trying to relay a point of view that may not have been considered fully.

[Mark in Beacon]

I think there is a point to this, but it can be a gray area. Technically, Rivendell is mainly an online seller, meaning they are theoretically taking sales away from my local shop. However, this mostly remains in the theoretical realm, for mostly obvious reasons. On the other hand, Amazon is currently destroying more businesses than Walmart or Home Depot ever did. I don't shop there as a rule.

Then there are the more direct competitors, such as VO, or big online bike shops like Modernbike, Niagara Cycles, Wiggle, etc, as well as purveyors of wool products like Ibex. When it comes down to it, though, there is not a huge amount of crossover product. Riv specs but does not sell the pedals linked in this post. And as Patrick points out, this is not an official Riv site, and does not require owning a Rivendell bicycle to participate.

Still, I would guess most of us are big supporters of the company. I almost always adhere to the request Grant once made about several products that can be found elsewhere for perhaps cheaper prices--hey, if you heard about it from us, buy it from us as a courtesy. Even with stuff I have been buying for years from other sources--the black wool merino sportskins, for example--if Riv has my size in stock when I need something, I buy it from them. There are rare exceptions--I used to always buy my Boeshield when placing orders, but now they only sell the small can, so I started getting it elsewhere. And the  rear rim on a brand new Atlas wheelset just took an unrepairable hit, but Riv does not sell these rims separately. The manufacturer offers it for $87.99 plus $14.00 shipping, or I can get it from Bikemania for $59.99, same shipping charge. (Of course BM has every single configuration in stock except the 36h silver finish that I need...)

In the bigger picture, this constant drive toward the apparent cheapest price, the reliance on subsidized shipping (yes, even at the increasing shipping, it's all subsidized) and cheap labor, the destruction of local anything, is all coming to a not very pretty end. It has only lasted this long because those  who derive great benefit from it have done everything possible to keep the globalization scheme running as long as possible.

Meanwhile, I'm heading over to Rivbike.com to buy some pannier rails for my Clem rack, and a few other assorted Goods & Sundries.

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 8:06:50 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Quick clarification on my post, I have nothing against competition...online or otherwise. It's mainly the practice of dumping large volumes of goods into the market at unhealthy/unsustainable prices (below even distributor pricing).

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes, but that dumping is part and parcel of the current economic system.

[Daniel D.]

For the past month. I've had a spending freeze on non-essentials. No big reason, just on a whim. Like going on a cleanse for my wallet. These pedals are testing my resolve. But pedals are consumables right?:p

[Joe Bernard]

I posted a response to this last night, but a missing word really screwed up the final sentence. Trying again: I don't feel comfortable finding a better deal on this list for something Riv sells (referring to new products from online sellers). I already bought VP-001 pedals from Riv a couple weeks ago, and had been looking for something cheaper/less durable for an ebike which won't see heavy pedal pressure. I bought the Bauhaus plastic pedal from that linked sight, and mentioned that Grant might like them enough to sell them.

The moral being, I don't have a problem with a sale like that being posted because so much of the product is not carried by RBW, but I personally would not click the link to get a better price on something Riv sells. Your results may vary.

[drew]

In principle and theory I understand the argument against big discount sites sweeping the legs of the little guy.

In practice in this group, I tend to disagree with the argument. i went from a 1 rivendell home when I joined the list, to a 4 rivendell home (2 new 2 used). I blame you guys. All the bikes have mostly parts from rivendell. All have a riv bag. There will be more purchases in the coming months and years. I don't think grant and co would say I haven't done my part.

My point is that here, in this little vacuum, we already lean hard into sending rivendell our business and support. Maybe weirdly hard sometimes.

I don't see the issue with an occasional deal on pedals, or whatever, when 90% of your bike's parts were purchased at one place, and someone on a group who also has an expensive bike that they bought from that same place sends it to you.

[Joe Bernard]

Oh, I forgot to mention the cheapy pedals needed to be black to match the not-one-ounce-of-silver motif of my new Haibike. Normally I would just grab RMX pedals from Riv, which would have been the 7th or 8th time. RBW probably has a separate column in my Purchase History just for MKS RMX ;-)

[Patrick Moore]

Mark: do you mean our subsidized roads and motor vehicle infrastructure, or do you go further than this? I'm curious how far non-transportation money helps pay for transportation.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:59 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

In the bigger picture, this constant drive toward the apparent cheapest price, the reliance on subsidized shipping (yes, even at the increasing shipping, it's all subsidized) 

 

[Edwin W]

I like the idea of "if you heard about it from Riv and they sell it, buy it from them as a courtesy." The (usually small) increase in price is worth the mountains of advice I have received from them and you all. "Tuition comes in many forms," as my friend's dad says.

I guess they have to limit how many different models they can stock. I was impressed by the ones on the complete Appaloosas I saw at RBW HQ, but Riv doesn't sell those. The NP2, I think.

Edwin

[Garth]

  From my understand large retailers have contracts with shippers.  The details are unknown to the public but I don't think it is the same as a per-shipment deal like a small business and the public get. Like some sort of bulk deal agreed upon. So looking at their shipping costs from a perspective outside of this contractual deal it could be seen as a "subsidy" because you would be comparing it to the public and small business per-shipment basis. This may or may not be the actual case as the rules of the contracts are unknown, so either way it's a guess.

[Justin August]

To be fair: this price is not really rare or exclusive. If you check EBay you'll see that everyone who isn't a small online bike shop is selling them for below $50.

However, when Riv has stock I shop from them if the price differential is less than 20% or so. But when it's literally 70% off? I don't know.

-Justin, with 2 cents +/- 20%

[Daniel D.]

well then guess it's nothing to get worked up about.  It's a great deal...

[Ray Varella]

I treat my favorite bike/parts sellers the same way I treat my local hardware store.
I go there first. I want them to stay in business because they provide a level of knowledge and courtesy that a big box or large anonymous online seller does not.

When you deal with people who have invested decades in their chosen field, there is intrinsic value included.
If we as a society, price shop those individuals out of business, they won't get replaced.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[John A. Bennett]

"One meteorologist remarked that if the theory were correct, one flap of a sea gull's wings would be enough to alter the course of the weather forever. The controversy has not yet been settled, but the most recent evidence seems to favor the sea gulls."

-Edward Norton Lorenz (May 23, 1917 – April 16, 2008)

John at Rivelo in Portland

[Glen]

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 2:29:09 PM UTC-7, Glen wrote:

Steep and Cheap has Vice pedals along with some others on sale right now.

 

 $30 for the Vices

There was a discussion about the Shimano A530s on here a while ago, they are on sale too.

www.steepandcheap.com 

There, I corrected my PSA.  Y'all happy now? 

[Garth]

You're fine for posting as you did Glen :) This is an open group, for "enthusiasts", not dictators.

[Reed Kennedy]

For whatever it's worth, I feel this list is a good place to share good deals on things that others here might enjoy. I also feel like it's a good place to remind people to support the company that introduced (some of ) us to (some of) these products, and that helped bring us together here to talk about bikes.

Basically, I'm grateful for the largely constructive folks here, and the way things currently works (discussion with occasional consensus) seems pretty good.

If anything, even a bit more kindness might occasionally do us well, but compared to the rest of the internet? Well, I think we do ok.

Reed

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

You're fine for posting as you did Glen :)  This is an open group, for "enthusiasts", not dictators.

[Bob K.]

It occurs to me that we're talking about a bigger issue than whether or not we should post PSAs for non-Riv products on this forum and that the real issue is whether or not we should buy our bike bits online, at our LBS, or a combination of the two. I battle with this all the time, and I often make my decision based on how large the cost discrepancy actually is. Two weekends ago, I bought some metal brake pads for my Shimano XT hydro disc calipers at my LBS without doing any price shopping first. I ended up spending embarrassingly more--about 250--than I would've if I bought them online. I love the shop--always have and always will. Do I wish I could have that money back? Sure. But I don't hold the price against them because it's based on their cost from the distributor. And I hope they don't hold it against me when they see me with a new bit or two on my bike that I didn't buy from off their shelves.

I strongly believe in the LBS and the necessity to have several great shops in each community--for service, advice, and essential and non-essential bits for our beloved bikes. I'll happily spend 10-20% more to support my LBS. In the long run, a few bucks here and there won't make or break me. However, I simply don't have the money to buy everything I need and want from my LBS (or from Riv, to bring this back around a bit) because of the sometimes-but-not-often-ridiculous price difference.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Joe Bernard]

Nobody was playing dictator in this thread, Garth..that's an unfounded accusation. It's been a perfectly reasonable discussion about the ethics of posting sales here, with interesting opinions from several angles. As RBW just last week posted that things are getting dire out there for places like theirs, I think it was worth hashing out.

[Philip Kim]

hahah this was a great response.

for me, my buying habits also seem to coincide with how much i want to keep changing parts round etc. the less I want to work on it, the more likely I'll just go to a shop and get them to order everything. a lot of the times it's worth it to get the bike to just build it up and handle everything (as long as you trust them and can afford it!). I got my Hunq through Gravel and Grind and was adamant about what I wanted, but after awhile changed a lot of parts around. wish I just let them handle the full build from the first place. oddly enough, it would've saved me time and money.

but a lot of the times, i have so many parts in my parts bin, that I just bring it and just pay for the labor and try to get a couple of accessories like tubes/chain lube/lights/etc.

On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 1:20:33 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:

For whatever it's worth, I feel this list is a good place to share good deals on things that others here might enjoy. I also feel like it's a good place to remind people to support the company that introduced (some of ) us to (some of) these products, and that helped bring us together here to talk about bikes.

Basically, I'm grateful for the largely constructive folks here, and the way things currently works (discussion with occasional consensus) seems pretty good.

If anything, even a bit more kindness might occasionally do us well, but compared to the rest of the internet? Well, I think we do ok.

Reed

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

You're fine for posting as you did Glen :)  This is an open group, for "enthusiasts", not dictators.

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[BenG]

Was sitting in church yesterday, thinking about the rich man and Lazarus, and added up $240 of Riv-sourced wardrobe du jour. No more than a suit would cost, but I am not that story's Lazarus, for sure. I buy from RBW when I can, and enjoy it. "You do you."

[iamkeith]

I hope you know i wasn't trying to call you out or critcize you, Glen. I just thought it was a discussion that should be had, in exactly the polite and constructive way that it has unfolded, and for which this group is known.

[Joe Bernard]

Keith: It's constructive but never fun. I brought a similar thing up here 2 or 3 years ago, and as I recall I was less delicate. A lot of people got pissed off and I ended up apologizing and hitting the road for a while.

It's just not an easy topic because RBW isn't Performance Bike, it's one shop with Grant and a few employees, and a good number of us know them on a first name basis. I think it's a fair discussion to have every few years, but it's never easy.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Sometimes the maker requires a minimum retail price--for a small variety of good or at least well-intended reasons. VP-001 was one of those, but it's not the only one, for sure. If (for example) the Min Sell Price (MSP) of X is $80 and a seller complies because compliance is generally good when you want to get along with vendors and don't see the relationship as a battle with winners and losers. When somebody else violates the price thing, and maybe even sells X for below cost, some buyers will see that as a chance for irresistible victory, and naturally and for good reasons, will want to share the love with others. This is the free market, and the chips fall, etc. Nobody's arguing against a free market or anything.

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 1:29:09 PM UTC-8, Glen wrote:

Steep and Cheap has VP-001 and Vice along with some others on sale right now.

$33 for the 001s and $30 for the Vices

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Interesting update regarding VP Components.  As of late we, as a shop, have been pretty diligent about helping brands police their MAP (Manufacturer Agreed Pricing) online.  We've gone so far as to throw brands out of the shop for having little or no interest in controlling the pricing of their products or protecting the best interests of local specialty retail.  We are a micron blip on the radar as far as having an affect as one shop....but..... if most brick and mortars show that they care....then who knows (it helps me sleep at night).

Anyways, VP Components responded...PROMPTLY (which is rare)....on a Sunday.  They care!!!  Apparently this was part of their shutdown of US warehousing.  To them, all of their distributors were placing large enough orders to satisfy factory-direct fulfillment.  So their US operations will now be warranty, R&D, service support etc only.  They indicated that this would be a small pricing anomaly, they were aware of it and that normal pricing would soon return to the market.  They also told me the they offered liquidation pricing to distributors, brick and mortar shops and finally online parters (in the order). 

[Hugh Smitham]

Been there done that, meaning this type of discussion has popped up before and am glad to see a huge brouhaha hasn't developed. Personally Glen thanks for the heads up I bought two pair a silver pair for my A. Homer a bike which I paid Riv the full freight and a black pair of VP-001 for my New Bantam Adventure bike. Free shipping and both cost less than a single pair from Riv which I just noticed they've lowered from the usual $80 to $68. 

For the record I don't shop at Walmart, try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's I've gone to have a shitty attitude. Rivendell does have a great attitude but on some things the markup is too much. My wife is in retail and all the little one's are hurting.

I will buy from Riv in the near future. 

~Hugh 

[Hugh Smitham]

Thank you for the behind the curtain explanation.

[Patrick Moore]

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[Patrick Moore]

A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best, and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.

From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados who loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes. 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

[I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's I've gone to have a shitty attitude. 

[Hugh Smitham]

I agree.

I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough, what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage their shop.    

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

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[Matt C.]

I remember when I first got into bikes I befriended the owner of my local LBS. I think the shop was under a year old at the time. The owner was a great guy and was very patient with me, a new cyclist. One time I came in with new parts on my bike that I mentioned I bought online. He kindly and politely asked if I would at least attempt to buy from him in the future to see if he could match or get close to an online price.

It was then it clicked that where I shopped for parts could affect hIs business positively or negatively.

Free market it is. You can buy from wherever you choose. Just remember that you support whoever you buy from. So buy from places you want to still see around in another 10 years.

Matt Cook
Bristol, RI

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:

" what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking the question"

Hugh went on to explain:

" I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"

Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time.  When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through his mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS.  Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.  

My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON Delux.  Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to me?"  I always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike Varley at Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I need in stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love Mike.  Everyone is happy that I put my money in Mike's register.  He's a 75 minute drive away from me, but it's a nice drive and Mike has a nice couch and usually offers me a beer.  Sometimes I feel a little bit like a sucker when I see folks discounting Paul stuff at half-retail, but I try to get over it. 

Bill two-cents-is-all-it's-worth Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 9:27:53 AM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:

I agree.

I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough, what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage their shop.    

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best, and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.

From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados who loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes. 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

[I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's I've gone to have a shitty attitude. 

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[Ryan Fleming]

I have tried ordering special parts from my LBS....and I'm not trying to get a deal and if the effort they expend to order is part of the price, I'm fine with that. Waiting several weeks for a part from my LBS on the other hand is sometimes not OK if I can get it online in a week. It depends on the season though. I guess that's a tough one because ordering piecemeal , as we know, quickly adds up (in shipping costs). Riv was very good about building my bike with parts not on the menu...including the aforementioned WI M-15 hubs

[Robert Keal]

Agreed on all counts, Bill. Patronizing LBSs is fun, and I love the connection with owners and workers. It feels good to support real people.

But it's not always that easy for me. I tinker with my bikes because it's fun, and I enjoy it, not because I need to. Can I always afford to pay my LBS--where prices are generally, but not always, competitive with online sources--for all of the parts/bikes/tools I need to fuel my tinkering fire? Nope, I can't. So I figure I've got four choices: 

1) Don't buy the stuff at all because I don't really need it; 

2) Only buy stuff when I can afford it at LBS price;

3) Default to the world wide interwebernets when LBS prices are "out of reach."

4) Buy used/second-hand whenever possible and forego the whole retail/discounted retail thing altogether.

I generally get all of my consumables (brake pads, cables/housing, etc.) from my LBS, but the first places I look for parts are generally this list/iBob/eBay--and it occurs to me that this could also theoretically hurt the LBS, although perhaps the parts were or may've been purchased there originally and this train of thought is now making my head hurt. And I do often default to scouring different sources online for the cheapest price on the parts I want. In fact, I'm working on a build right now for a frame that I'm planning to buy from a LBS, and I'm still scouring the www to find cheapest prices on parts. I know this hurts my LBS, but I allow the desire to have the part and the desire to make it fit into my non-existent bike budget overwhelm my desire to support local business and real people--but then again, aren't there real people behind those websites, too? And now my head hurts again.

Anyway, perhaps this has been less a productive contribution to this thread and more a personal confession. So it goes.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Daniel D.]

Earning the money can already be enough of headache. I'm not going to give myself a headache doing the fun part, spending it.

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes, Bob, you are right.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to guilt people for shopping online.  I do it a TON.  I also buy and sell a lot of second hand stuff on the lists, which I also think it great.  

Bill

[Christopher Murray]

Ha! No way. I'm the customer and any store employee should treat me in a polite and respectful manner. It's not my problem what the 19 people before me did and to suggest otherwise is laughable. I've worked more than my share of retail. It's not that difficult to be polite-- let's not act like it is. I'm sorry if someone is frustrated but if they are taking that frustration out on the next customer they are probably in the wrong line of work.

Cheers,
Chris

[Bill Lindsay]

Christopher Murray

I agree with you.  Who suggested that it is OK to be impolite?  You sound like you are replying to my post.  Let me quote my own post:

"You definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you should not buy from people who give you attitude"

That was me saying it is not OK to be impolite.  You should not suggest that I approve of retail people being impolite.  I do not approve of it.  I went on to say:

"It was unfair to you, because he assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people did"  

That was me saying again that it is not OK for retail salespeople to be impolite.  Who said it was OK?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Christopher Murray]

Bill

Bill
I was replying to your post. I agree that you did not say it was ok to be impolite but disagree that you didn't suggest it was ok or at least understandable given the employee's previous 19 experiences. Giving advice for how Hugh could have handled it differently shifts blame from the employee to Hugh. As if he could (or should) have done something differently. My point is simply that retail employees should always be polite and respectful. No excuses.

I'm not speaking for Hugh, just responding as how I would feel if I were the subject of your post.

Chris

[Grant Petersen]

ON LBS or ONLINE or combo:

Not all ONLINERS are alike. At one extreme there is the late-20s guy who never left the house or ramped up his resume, but he got  into bikes, and cleared the hurdles to getting a reseller's permit. He eats and sleeps iwhether or not he sells anything, but he likes to stay busy and the correspondence and attention that comes with the business. His super low prices come with non-immediate shipping because he doesn't stock anything, so his theoretical inventory is sold before he orders it.   This is legal and honest work, but the sale benefits one person who's not even in need.

At the other extreme there must be oversalaried suppliers who underpay their employees and offer no benefits, and who jack up prices because on principle they have to cover the top-heavy salaries, and the underpaid staff is totally dispensible because customers can educate themselves online, or something...and the staff never has to interact.

RBW is between those. We're in one of two low-rent buildings in a town where, if you didn't buy a home 25 years ago with some family help, you won't be able to working here. We pay better-than-bikeshop wages and offer "gunning for google" benefits. We buy as direct and sell as direct as possible to keep prices down, but if every puchase comes down to price, we're no match for the pajama-clad brat with a computer and a day to win the game. Then we're left with frames and bags and we layoff 11 of 14 employees. I think we got into this at the right time, but it doesn't seem to be the right time anymore. We're trimming the menu and the cut items won't be replaced. We're on an inventory-spending budget that means we'll be more often out of stock. This stuff goes on all over the world, but is just really obvious when the lake you thought your canoe was in is actually a river and the waterfall's right over there.

We also have costs the extremes (or an LBS) doesn't have, because so much of what we offer is our design, made for us, and we're picky about materials and construction. The USA-available waxed cotton is 65 percent as good as the Sackville Scottish cotton, but every time we order the Scotstuff, we have a $9,000 bill and another $1,500 for freight to Connecticut. There's a similar story for almost everything we "make." I've understood this the whole time, and I don't mind, because it's the only way we can stay in business. It doesn't work to buy Shimano derailers for $60, then try to compete with online prices of $62. A non-businessperson would think that's a $2 profit...

Whatever Alex at Yellow Haus (or James at Gravel & Grind) or John at Rivelo charges for anything--it's the right price. We're all just licking the bowls these days trying to hang in and hoping something changes. (I don't mean to say I know their money woes, but it is impossible for them not to worry every day.

It's hard to stay on top of everything the experts say we have to do to stay alive. Have a device-friendly website? OK. Two clicks to the shopping cart, and one click to buy? That's harder. Just-in-time inventory is impossible. If Toyota couldn't do it in 1988, Rivendell sure can't do it now.

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[Evan E.]

No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe once a year? -- I always find it interesting. 

By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.

I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?

[Patrick Moore]

One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, lubes, and so forth.

Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas perhaps a Clem, if I had the money, but these would be outlier items, not the focus of my riding preferences.

As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support local businesses.

I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.

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[Grant Petersen]

Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.

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[Patrick Moore]

Except you'd long since have driven me from your customer database in disgust and exasperation at my excessively weird taste in customs and clothing. (When we were discussing one of my 26" wheel customs, long ago, I said, brightly:"I'll post this to the list!!!" Grant replied, "Don't you dare.")

Grant, you got me sold way back in the '90s when I heard you say, "We are product driven, not market driven." I did a MBA paper based on Rivendell and that theme. Got an A, too.

Long may you wave or thrive or live or whatever it is y'all do.

[Ryan Fleming]

yeah...patrick I don't think you have to apologise :) And you've been eloquent in praise of your customs...and you're usually not rude either

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

Except you'd long since have driven me from your customer database in disgust and exasperation at my excessively weird taste in customs and clothing. (When we were discussing one of my 26" wheel customs, long ago, I said, brightly:"I'll post this to the list!!!" Grant replied, "Don't you dare.")

Grant, you got me sold way back in the '90s when I heard you say, "We are product driven, not market driven." I did a MBA paper based on Rivendell and that theme. Got an A, too.

Long may you wave or thrive or live or whatever it is y'all do.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Grant Petersen <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, lubes, and so forth.

Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas perhaps a Clem, if I had the money, but these would be outlier items, not the focus of my riding preferences.

As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support local businesses.

I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E. <evanel...@gmail.com> wrote:

No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe once a year? -- I always find it interesting. 

By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.

I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

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[Hugh Smitham]

On Feb 15, 2017 10:55 AM, "Bill Lindsay" <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:

" what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking the question"

Hugh went on to explain:

" I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"

Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time.  When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through his mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS.  Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.  

Gee Bill I really appreciate you going to the trouble of explaining how I should approach shopping. Frankly, I don't care if I was the 100th customer who asked for a price. Here's a novel idea Bill, it's not my prerogative to patronize a retailer who treats me disrespectful for any parts large or small. I have never shown an online price to a bike shop employee unless they specifically requested me to do so.

When I came in to the LBS in the recent past I had them build a $1200 wheelset, build two bikes and bought, tubes, bottles, patches, cables...I asked one of the Proprietors what was the best price for said hub? His response was something to the effect we can't give you a lower price, you should go buy it somewhere else, maybe online. I was shocked. Left with a really bad taste. 

I know a guy running his own shop by himself, no employees, always busy. But he always makes time to talk with me respectfully. He needs the business and I'll continue to support him.

On making a suggestion to carry products, this I have done at a different LBS and the Assistant Manager with heaps of shitty attitude scoffed at my suggestion. The suggestion was maybe carry a few steel touring bikes.

My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON Delux.  Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to me?"  I always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike Varley at Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I need in stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love Mike.  Everyone is happy that I put my money in Mike's register.  He's a 75 minute drive away from me, but it's a nice drive and Mike has a nice couch and usually offers me a beer.  Sometimes I feel a little bit like a sucker when I see folks discounting Paul stuff at half-retail, but I try to get over it. 

Well Bill we aren't all so well healed as you where we can just toss our money around without asking for a price. I asked because that's what I do as a consumer, I check on pricing which in my experience can fluctuate. In the end they lost a wheel build which included other parts and I always ask in a polite and respectful way.

He could have said you know Hugh we don't have any wiggle room on those hubs but we'd like to order it for you and get that wheel built for you. We'll build it for $45 rather than $50 since you've been such a valued customer.

I'm not angry with you just amazed you'd suggest how I should approach spending my money. But I get it, you used to work at a bike shop. 

~Hugh

Bill two-cents-is-all-it's-worth Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 9:27:53 AM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:

I agree.

I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough, what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage their shop.    

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best, and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.

From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados who loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes. 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:

[I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's I've gone to have a shitty attitude. 

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[Joe Bernard]

My favorite personal story about buying from Riv is from last year when I decided to move my $1300 CLEM pre-order cash into a more expensive Appaloosa. Grant walked in while I was in the process of paying Roman and said (from the kitchen), "Are you sure you can afford it, Joe?" 'Sure. Kinda!' I'm trying to hand the guy $2600 (estimate, I can't remember) and he's worried that I'm in over my head. Like a friend would do. That was nice :-)

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh

I don't know why both you and Christopher Murray seem to think that I approve with how you were mistreated at your bike shop.  I said I disapprove of how you were treated.  I said it was unfair to you.  I don't think anyone should buy anything anywhere where they are treated rudely and I said so.  I must have misinterpreted your "i don't get it" to mean that you want to understand.  Some people say "I don't get it" when they mean "I do get it, and I think it sucks"  I attempted to offer an explanation for the bad situation, including the possibility that the dude is just a jerk.  I don't understand why you think I'm defending somebody being rude to you.  I'm not defending him.  

I did not mean intend to amaze you, and I did not intend to suggest how you should approach spending your money.  I mistakenly thought MSRP on White Industries stuff is common knowledge.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

Grant: What is The Thing that has changed recently? Is it changing tastes in bicycles; less interest in bikes overall; ebikes; or simply the Amazon Effect?

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA

[Ian A]

Ryan wrote "... eloquent in praise of your customs...and you're usually not rude either".

Since I've been reading this list from around 2008 or so, Patrick Moore has always been most eloquent and a gentleman.

IanA

[Mark in Beacon]

A thousand Patrick Moores...now that's something to think about. But of course, there is only the one, the incomparable Patrick Moore;^)

[James Warren]

1000 Patrick Moores means 1000 gears!

(Joke ignores that he has a few bikes.)

Sent from my iPhone

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[Hugh Smitham]

Yes Bill you did offer an explanation, jerk, 19 people before me asking the same question or derivation of.  You did say no one should buy from anywhere that's rude to you. You did say you didn't approve. Then you offered how I may have asked the question with in your opinion perhaps a better more agreeable outcome.

However this is like saying I don't mean to offend you but...

My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 rear hub.  

Answered this but to further clarify I'm not familiar with the White Industries hub pricing. This was my first foray into buying a high end hub.

When I said "I don't get it" means I'm incredulous how a business keeps their doors open with poor customer relations. I understand that retailers get exasperated by the current pressures of online sales but that's the new model. Similar to print news papers being disrupted by online news organizations. I appreciate brick and mortar stores of all stripes because I appreciate them and their service, if they're rude I don't patronage their establishment.

I don't need you to spell it out for me.

I vote every day with my wallet.

And Bill I accept your apology.

~Hugh

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[iamkeith]

Joe, i dont mean to answer for grant, and am not at all certain there's any common thread, but thought this news story from today was interesting - about warren buffett signaling the "death of retail." Seems that even the businesses that once killed the other businesses are struggling to stay alive:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg

[Scott Henry]

This is always a fun read everytime it comes up.  

I never vote with my wallet.   I let companies vote for my business with their pricing.

I know what I want and I know what I'm buying, I assume that most on this list do as well, I don't need to be sold anything.   

If I head to a store (of any type)  and they have something I want cheap, I'll buy it.  Otherwise, why spend more?   I have worked on and off in bike shops for 25 years.  Here is a secret, most shops don't like ordering things for customers.   It's out of their routine, it's not what they already paid for to stock and it's an extra thing to do.   Most shops place an order weekly, a few will order twice weekly.   But its still a pain to do the extra steps for a one-off.   Plus, I can order damn near anything right off of my phone and have it within 2-3 days.   That's pretty darn convenient, and I am a man of convenience.

I was killing some time waiting for a friend last weekend and I pulled into a Field and Stream store.  They had a rather nice carry pistol, a Ruger LCP 2, for $350.   A few second on my phone and it turns out Cabela's which is a few miles away has it for $300.   Where do you think I spent money?   Both are my "local" store.  Both employ "local" people.   One Just does a better job at cost management, inventory control and cost cutting and regulation.  

The $50 I saved went right into an eBay seller on a pair of Modolo anatomic brake hoods that were probably $8 back in the 80s.  

All the dollars always get spent.   Its just a measure of who gets them.

For the record, the 001 pedals are nice but routinely go for right about $45 online.  

Cheers,

Scott

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 12:15 AM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Joe, i dont mean to answer for grant, and am not at all certain there's any common thread, but thought this news story from today was interesting - about warren buffett signaling the "death of retail." Seems that even the businesses that once killed the other businesses are struggling to stay alive:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg

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[Jon BALER]

I buy from my LBS most of the time.  I tend to buy things in advance and bundle my orders, so it is efficient for me and the shop. They typically put in their QBP order on Mondays, so I try to email them just before that with my order.

I keep a lot of common parts and consumables stocked in my garage, so I rarely need anything quickly. 

On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 4:29:09 PM UTC-5, Glen wrote:

Steep and Cheap has VP-001 and Vice along with some others on sale right now.

$33 for the 001s and $30 for the Vices

There was a discussion about the Shimano A530s on here a while ago, they are on sale too.

www.steepandcheap.com 

[Patrick Moore]

And yet Stevie's is thriving, even if on a very small scale. Business has improved each of the last 5 years or so, and he's expanded twice in that period, most recently last year. Again, all on a very small scale, but Steve is thinking of taking the family to Europe this summer.

Why? Friendly service; a friendly neighborhood approach; willingness to work on anything (4-wheel, 2-person/2 drivetrain quad car? Mopeds? Electric bikes? Slime the 2 kids' 16" tires? Find a bearing for your baby jogger?); a focus on "just ride" bikes -- a commuter with 7 gears and battery lights, fenders, rack, stand for $400? A huge lineup of all types of consignment bikes; a willingness to order what you want and install it; very good mechanical services and a knowledge of weird systems. And people come in and just donate things like the 2 '70s toute Campy pro level road bikes.

https://vimeo.com/104867698

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:15 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg

[Ryan Fleming]

I suspect you have many repeat (and happy customers) and I expect you will even attract a new legion of loyal fans. In fact , may I say, I'm sure of it

Ryan F.  ever since 1997 and probably not done yet

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-6, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:

Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, lubes, and so forth.

Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas perhaps a Clem, if I had the money, but these would be outlier items, not the focus of my riding preferences.

As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support local businesses.

I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E. <evanel...@gmail.com> wrote:

No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe once a year? -- I always find it interesting. 

By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.

I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?

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[panog]

The customer is always right until they are not. At that point the best a business could do is fire that customer. It works both ways.

Pano G.
Wash DC

[Hugh Smitham]

I don't subscribe to the customer is always right. The customer may be misinformed but courtesy is a bastion of a successful business enterprise. Rivendell has always got that. Haha fire the customer that's rich.

~Hugh

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[Richard Rios]

There's been a good bit said. So I'll just throw in my .02. I try to support my LBS whenever possible. But when I do I go there with the mindset of I am paying for service and dont really sweat the price. If the service isn't there then why would I pay a higher price? And I dont. I do and don't like the really low ball blow out prices. I like them because they can be nice when you find them and it's something useful. But then they bum me out because i know that it really kills the price of that item on the second hand market. I recently bought a clem for full price and it is worth it! But then I saw Riv had discounted it and I thought dang if I ever go to sell, which I don't plan on but I never rule out, people will remember that lower price. This happens to me occasionally enough because I am in a situation where i kinda have to buy to try for better or worse. Unfortunately my experiences with most LBS has been on the not that good side of things. Most of the shops in my area cater to the racier type folks. so when I ask for "regular" type stuff they don't typically stock they don't seem in all that much of a hurry to help. Which sours me in general to tryin LBS.This has happened to me at shops even when they do specialize in "normal" suff. I took a trip out to one such shop in the Los Angeles area about a 75 min drive from where I live to buy a bike. I said yeah I'll take it! Order it up... and they gave me some rig a ma roll about needing to check stock first and then never got back to me until days later after having had promised to get back much sooner. I end ended up buying the bike direct and could clearly see the bike was I'm stock online from jump. Not sure what that was about but I was bummed because i really wanted to find a great new shop to support...b ut the servuce wasn't there :(. I'm not money rich but am blessed to have a wife kid, morgage and all that good stuff. Expensive bikes and parts are a luxury for me so I spend to support when I can and save a few bucks when possible. I support Rivendell as much as I can because I really have learned so much about cycling from Grant. If I hadn't found Riv I'd prolly be all hunched over on some to small frame staring at the ground and missing out on so much of what I enjoy about riding a bike. That is worth something to me. With that said sometimes I am broker than others and because I am here in Cali I get hit with tax plus shipping and the higher price from Riv which just makes that voice kick in and say I gotta support my family also and that cheaper price becomes to hard to pass up... There shouldnt be any judgemt passing or guilt. I think amongst those who participate in this group we are all mindful and all just doing the best we can working within the economy we have. Stevies looks great by the way! I would love to have a shop like that in my neck of the woods. Seems to show good service really does sell.

Richard

[panog]

@Hugh Smitham

As a business, it may come a point where the realization that a particular segment of your customer pool does not seem to fit your business plan anymore is evident. At that juncture a business has a decision to make. They could either adapt their business plan to engulf the changes and possibly loose a part of their unique identity or concentrate more on retaining the customer base that fits with their business plan and identity better. From this prospective then, yes, "fire" the customer that no longer fits your business plan. They are not as useful to you anyway because they are not a reliable source of revenue under your operating platform.

As a customer, we "fire" businesses all the time by choosing where to shop.

As I said before, it works both ways. What is different is which side of the counter you happen to be at.

Pano G.
Wash. DC