Thinking of a Riv

[Tim Butterfield]

I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks without having to change frames.

So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of each.

With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.

My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?

Thanks for any advice you have.

Tim

[drew]

I can't speak to many of the things you're asking, but touring the San Juan islands by bike is a dream of mine...and because of that I'd go with the Hilsen or a Sam. But that's me. Then again, maybe you are planning to use the awol for that.

it is a fun spot to be in to finally decide it's time for a rivendell. Congratulations.

[Joe Bernard]

I think most people can move from brifters to bar-ends without much trouble, although I wouldn't consider it a necessary move on either Riv road bike. In my opinion downtubers are for those who grew up with them, or are REALLY committed to the look and simplicity. I did grow up with them, but it's not my thing. I like shifters on the bars.

[dougP]

Tim:

How secure is your RV park? I would hesitate to lock any bike outside like that unless it's well hidden & secure.

As to shifters, DTs do look clean & classy, & bar ends are nice too. You may ponder your desire for an eleventh gear. 9 or 10 may be enough, and opens up your choices in shifters. Worth a second thought.

Doug p

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Joe.  I did have DT shifters on a bike I had for a couple years as a teen, but that's long ago enough for the muscle memory to have forgotten.  I'm leaning towards brifters, but didn't want to exclude the DT or bar ends without due consideration.  If I go with brifters again, I'm not sure of which one I would get.  It would be higher end, but could be Shimano, SRAM, or Campy.  I have had the other two, but haven't had a recent Campy.  That might be interesting, though with possible risk of an expensive mistake if I don't like it.  I'm not sure how the more recent shifters compare.

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think most people can move from brifters to bar-ends without much trouble, although I wouldn't consider it a necessary move on either Riv road bike. In my opinion downtubers are for those who grew up with them, or are REALLY committed to the look and simplicity. I did grow up with them, but it's not my thing. I like shifters on the bars.

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[Tim Butterfield]

Nice dream, Drew.  For me, being local, I can ride on the other islands and still take the ferry back home at night.  So, I don't really need full tour capabilities.  If I were to bike and travel, my disabled wife would likely accompany me in the truck, reducing my need to lug tour stuff on the bike.

I forgot to mention.  A sale of the AWOL will help finance the Riv.  Also, with the space limitation of the RV, I'm only allowing myself a single bike.  If I were keeping the AWOL, that would sway me more towards the Roadeo.  But, with a single bike, the AHH may fill more roles.

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 8:38 PM, drew <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can't speak to many of the things you're asking, but touring the San Juan islands by bike is a dream of mine...and because of that I'd go with the Hilsen or a Sam. But that's me. Then again, maybe you are planning to use the awol for that.

it is a fun spot to be in to finally decide it's time for a rivendell. Congratulations.

[Lungimsam]

If you are going to be bar end friction shifting I recommend 7- or 8- speed cassettes. Less autoshifting.

I run 7-speed cassettes on both my Rivendells.

I went from brifters to bar ends and I loved bar ends at first shift. For some reason I find them more fun to use than brifters.
Perhaps it is also the freedom of not having to be tied into a gruppo drivetrain as bar end friction shifting will shift across any cogsets/chainrings.

Also, you dont have to set the cable tension up "just so" like you do with brifting setups.

Just feels free-er to me. More fun.

[kielsun]

I never used bar end shifters before my Sam, and I absolutely love them. Started out indexing, but I'm now friction-only. IME, there's a night-and-day difference between the convenience of bar ends vs. DT shifters--not even in the same ballpark. I've never used brifters, but they aren't nearly as clean as bar ends to these biased eyes.

Bob

[Belopsky]

You've had/have nice bikes. Kind of the route I've taken in the last year - I had a Velo Orange Campeur, then (and still) a Surly Straggler. 

I found that I was using the Campeur for around-town, and the Straggler was going to be my fast, longer riding bike. I got a pro fit on the Straggler and then sold the Campeur.

My takeaway was: Quill setups, as pretty and stiff as they are, are hard to fit - it's a bit more involved to change out bars, quill stems than a threadless system.

Brakes on the Campeur are terrible in comparison to the Straggler's discs. 

If you find the fit on the AHH off, you may find yourself a bit annoyed changing the bars and stem, especially if you've spent some time wrapping Newbaum's and shellac...Ask my how I know.

As to wear issues or weather, I wouldn't want to leave an AHH outside for long for many reasons...One of the reasons I sold my Hillborne was because I was commuting to work and it was too pretty to lock up, and bringing it in was annoying - theft isn't a huge problem here but still  the bike got a lot of notice..

I was missing the Campeur a little bit, and recently bought a Rawland as the price was good and it was local (this bike is now my town commuter).

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Tim,

Have you considered any of the "Ready to Ride" Rivs? In your size, there's currently:

Sam Blue 55cm Demo (drop bars, bar-end shifters)

Sam Blue 51cm Demo (drop bars, bar-end shifters)

Roadeo Hot Blue 55cm Demo (drop bars, brifters)

Protoveloosa 54.7cm (Bosco bullmoose, thumbies)

(maybe others).

Maybe I missed it-- what sorts of rides are you doing now? Would like to do in the near future? Are you set on drop bars or have you considered more upright setups?

Setups-- my Hunqapillar has bar ends or thumbies (depending on hbar), and my AHH has down-tube shifters. Most of the time, bar ends or thumbies are much easier to use than down tubes. Hard to beat the look of down tubes, IMHO, tho. 

You can also consider thumbies or stem-mounted shifters (in addition to bar ends or brifters).

Wear issues: as long as the bike is out of the rain when stored, I wouldn't worry too much. Are you concerned about theft? 

Good luck!

shoji

[Brian Campbell]

I have had an AHH for 5 years now. I love the bike. It has been built up in many configurations and handled all of them very well. Currently, it is set up for Commuting/Road/Rando riding. All in minus. repair kit it, weighs 24.9 pounds (lights/fenders/ pedals/ water bottle cages and Brooks b17 included). With out the dyno hub/fenders and lights it would be pretty close to a Roadeo in total weight. My point being is that it is easier to make your AHH, Roadeo-like that it is to make your Roadeo, AHH-like.

In addition, the AHH also for racks and carrying stuff where the Roadeo is not designed with those things in mind. Both are great bikes but he AHH give you more flexibility as your needs change.

[Deacon Patrick]

"are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?"

Absolutely. A Riv setup is brilliant, simple, and easily adjusted/fixed in field if needed. More importantly, they ride fantastically, and that matters for every distance. I haven't ridden the bikes you have, but the non-rive bikes I've ridden don't even compare to the "invisible" wonder of my Riv. bikes (Hunqapillar and Quickbeam). The ride, for me, is far more fun, no matter the distance.

"If I pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?"

Grant's bikes have an inherently wide window of usability, which is utterly counter to the niche purposing of most modern bikes. That said, the Rodeo likely has the smallest window. I've heard it said the Quickbeam fits somewhere between the Rodeo and AHH. Presuming that is true, the window I ride the QB on ranges from smooth fast paved roads to remote and medium rough forest service roads/trails. I've taken it on more technical trails and it is definitely under biking, and fun in its own way as a "hone my skills" adventure. For myself, I'd choose the AHH.

"Are there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?"

I live in dry (as in not humid often) Colorado mountains. However, my Hunqapillar lives outside without cover on all bikepacking trips, a stunning number of which are half rain (enough that the tent fly is always wet). So far so good. Use frame saver, cover as you can, and enjoy!

"I'm doubtful of that, but don't want to mistreat it either."

It's a bike. Enjoy it. Use it. It will age wonderfully based on how you do. The only way to mistreat it is to not use it! Grin.

"Any thing else I should consider?"

Indubitably. Ultimately, however, the answer is to get the best match you can and ride and learn from there. The experience will teach you more than the mind-spinning fretting beforehand. And all the mind-spinning fretting I did would have been far easier if I'd just spoken to Grant and Co. once and let them run with it and ridden what they sent me. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[masmojo]

Out of the two you've presented the HH is the most versatile and would be my recommendation (especially considering you weight, in fact I think maybe even an Atlantis might be worth considering). A couple other things to consider, first no matter which you choose the ability to turn around and sell it if it's not to your liking is probably unparalleled in any other bike. Secondly, you might consider your age and where you will be with cycling in 5 or 10 years!? In other words think of it as a long term relationship and not solely about what you ride or how you ride now!

[Tim Butterfield]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

One thing I have noticed from the bike pictures that included bar end shifters is there seems to be more cable looped in front of the bars.  If I decide to add a front rack and bag later, would that extra cable have any interference from that?  Just wondering if there are any gotchas to be aware of.

Just to be clear on this, I don't know what I may add in future, rack/bag, handlebar bag, etc.  My preference is for neat and tidy cable routing.  If barcon cables can be mostly tucked under the bar tape instead of big and loopy, they may still work for me.  But, I don't know how neat and tidy routing may affect cable life.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

I've done a bit more research and found my handlebar choice may affect my shifter choice.  I like the hook/drop angle of the Nitto Randonneur bars.  That angle seems like it may be more comfortable to hold for longer periods than a more outward/vertical hand position.  But, I've read it may not be as comfortable using brifters with that angle, especially from the hoods.  So, if I go with that bar, it may be better suited to a bar end shifter.  I still like the idea of keeping the cables nice and tidy.  Maybe I can do that from bar ends without introducing too much additional friction.

[Tim Butterfield]

Doug,

Security is somewhat of a worry.  The bike is just outside of our RV door and our German Shepherd barks at most things that move around us.  Noisy gravel provides some alert for movement outside.  There is a covered cabana with a picnic table in it.  A Topeak cover is over the bike and it is cable locked through the frame to a cabana corner post.  The bottom of the wheels show, but not much else.  For a Riv, I would upgrade to a U-Lock through a padded chain through the frame and a set of Pitlocks.

I was reading some of the product descriptions and comments on Riv for the shifters.  Though not official supported in the product description, the comments indicate some have managed to get them working with 10 speeds.  If I decide to go that route, I would have to ask Riv if they would build it that way.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

> I went from brifters to bar ends and I loved bar ends at first shift. For some reason I find them more fun to use than brifters.

That is an interesting observation.  Thanks.

One thing I have noticed from the bike pictures that included bar end shifters is there seems to be more cable looped in front of the bars.  If I decide to add a front rack and bag later, would that extra cable have any interference from that?  Just wondering if there are any gotchas to be aware of.

Thanks.

TIm

[ascpgh]

I'll second that. Works well, stays in gear and close enough equals a shift.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Thursday, May 26, 2016 at 1:38:10 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:

[Surlyprof]

Tim,

I'd +1 Drew's suggestion of a Hilson or Hillborne or, possibly an Appaloosa.  Since you are only going to have one, those three seem to be more all-arounder than the Rodeo (although I've always coveted the Rodeo).  The way I view them, the Hilson and Hillborne are the all-arounders if you ride roads more than trails and the Appaloosa if you ride more trails than roads.  The Hillborne can handle a wider tire than the Hilson although the Hilson is IMHO one of Riv's most beautiful bikes.  I only own 1 bike to avoid clutter in my garage/studio/shop.  Like you, I also tried to create Riv-ish bikes once with a Surly Cross Check followed by a Soma Groove.  I sold those off as well as my Bianchi road bike that could only take 23mm tires and bought a Sam.  I kick myself thinking of how much I would have ultimately saved had I just bought a Riv from the beginning.  I've owned an orange canti-Hillborne for about two years now and absolutely love it.  Being over 50, having the handlebars above the saddle has been much more comfortable without sacrificing the feeling of speed and nimbleness.  I started with Albatross bars but quickly changed to Albastaches to get a more aggressive more position when I want it while still being able to ride more upright when needed.  I have been able to ride trails on Smart Sams and roads on Barlow Pass tires.  The one thing I did that eased the versatility was buy a second, lighter wheelset for the Compass tires.  This has made changing over from trail and commuter bike to light-ish road bike much quicker and easier than swapping tires.  I do have to adjust the barrel adjusters on the brakes to accommodate for the different rim widths.  The whole operation takes about 15 minutes.  If you are worried about the rain, you may want to consider the Brooks C-series seats rather than the leather ones.  That said, I've had good luck with the Randi Jo seat cover they sell at Riv (http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/s92.htm).

I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you choose.  I've never ridden a Riv I haven't adored.

John

[Tim Gavin]

Tim-

Regarding cable loops:  there are several ways to run the shift cables with bar-end shifters.  

You can have the cables run in separate loops that stick out in front of the head tube, with partial wrap or even no wrap at all.  These big loops put the least friction on the shift cable, but they can get in the way of a bag on top of the front wheel.

Or, you can wrap the cables under the tape up to the top of the bars, and then have them exit and loop down do the cable stops on the down tube.  This method puts a couple more bends in the housing (possibly adding friction) but keeps the cables out of the way of bags in front.

Regarding brifters on Randonneur (or other flared bars):  I find that the flare of the bar actually makes it EASIER to operate the shift paddle on brifters.  My wrists hurt less because the angle is less severe.  I've used old Shimano, old Campy, and new SRAM brifters on Nitto Randonneur B135s and Salsa Cowchipper bars without issues.

Regarding 10 speeds with friction bar-ends:  I've successfully shifted a 9-speed cassette with Silver shifters, it wasn't that tricky.  Move the lever until the chain moves, then stop.  Friction allows you to fine-tune the derailer trim easily.

That said, when I changed my Riv over to a 10-speed cassette, I changed the right bar-end out for a 10-speed indexed Shimano BS79 shifter.  I really like the crisp, exact index action, and it only takes a turn or two on the cable adjustment barrel once a year or so to keep the indexing tuned perfectly.

I found that I liked the indexed bar-end so much that I switched the 9-speed bar-end on my vintage Schwinn KOM over from "friction" to "SIS".

Caveat: if you want a 10-speed bar-end that can do both friction and indexed, you need to use the last-generation BS78 shifter.  The current-generation BS79 shifter looks the same but has no friction option.

Regarding your bike choice:  I'm #225 and very happy with my Roadeo (I picked up a used 2010 frame from a listmember this winter).  It rides great and is not noodly.  

But, the Roadeo is my 5th bike and is my least-ridden, because I've set it up without racks, bags, or fenders.  My Riv Road Standard has a slightly heavier-gauge frame (753 vs TT OX Platinum), and is probably more similar to an AHH than a Roadeo.  I ride my Riv Road Standard a lot, and it has fenders, a front mini-rack with a rando bag for commuting and short trips, and a Nitto R20 rack for when I tour.

I think the AHH or Sam H would be a great choice for your described use.  I like John's suggestion of a second wheelset if you only have one bike.

Cheers,

Tim

[Joe Bernard]

Bianchi uses Dia-Compe (same internals as Silver) friction shifters with a 10-speed cassette on their L'Eroica bike. Or you can use 10-speed indexed bar-ends, which would be my preference (front is still friction). I've pretty much walked away from rear friction at this point; at 54-years-old I've lost the fine hearing necessary to hear what's going on with the chain/cassette back there, and can't tell if I'm properly in gear anymore. I'm old!

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I run 9 and 10-speed cassettes with bar end shifters.  With the silver shifters it is friction, so I don't see why 10-speed wouldn't work (I use silver shifters with 9-spd).  For my 10-speed there are microshift 10-speed shifters--I prefer friction mode and reversed the shifters.  The 10-speed cassette side now shifts the front deraileur just fine and the rear is on friction.  Mark at Riv built it up that way for me and it works great.

I agree that the AHH would be a good choice if I had one bike.  I've ridden it on single-track and on brevets and grocery runs with rear rack, so I've had it do basically all I do on a bike...

Toshi

[dougP]

"Just to be clear on this, I don't know what I may add in future, rack/bag, handlebar bag, etc.  My preference is for neat and tidy cable routing.  If barcon cables can be mostly tucked under the bar tape instead of big and loopy, they may still work for me.  But, I don't know how neat and tidy routing may affect cable life."

We had a thread a while back on routing the bar end shifter cables under the tape that may be worth searching for.  IIRC the consensus was it was a successful approach.  My wife's Atlantis came with drops with the cables under the tape, exiting near the stem. Quite tidy, allows her a choice of front bags (currently an Acorn that nearly fills between the drops). n She's had the bike now well over 5 years & I may have replaced cables once, just on general principles (we bought it used).  Rivendell could also tell you what they've done.  

dougP

[Belopsky]

I ran my barends under the tape - no issues

[Bill Lindsay]

Steve P.  runs barcons with housing under the tape all the way to the tops on at least one bike.  My Atlantis has a DT shifter on the left, and an 8-speed indexed barcon on the right, with housing under the tape all the way to the tops.  

Another alternative that keeps housing out of the way is stem-shifters.  Like this:  Stem Shifter Setup

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Will]

There's a new Blug post up... mostly tube discussion. It's good:  http://rivbike.tumblr.com/

I have an Atlantis. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd get my boys Sams. Why? Sams are covert Atlanti. You get all the rack/fender braze-ons. You get good tire clearance. You get beautiful lugwork and (because Taiwan) you save $1000. My suggestion is: go with versatility and beauty.

Look at the Sams. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/26/2016 01:25 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Steve P. runs barcons with housing under the tape all the way to the
> tops on at least one bike.

Two bikes are set up that way, and it does not affect cable life.

[Zach Kahl]

What a great thread. I would say the worst thing about buying a Rivendell is that every option is a win. That said, people who ride Riv (in my opinion) know exactly what type of riding they are wanting to do and then pick out which bike is best for that. Most all of them are going to attach some weight to the bike(s), which makes the Roadeo kind of a niche bike once you already have a Riv that will allow you to go on a tour. Since you said you want to have only one bike, I would take a strong look at the AHH or an Appaloosa.

I am on a 62 Hunq and I am 6'6" with a bad back. I still built it with DT shifters and that is a decision I made and have not looked back on for a second. The brainlessness that happens once I got used to the reach make being on the bike very natural for me and allowed be to acquire the feeling that makes a Rivendell so dreamy once it is dialed in (I have more trouble finding the right bottle cage than I do finding my shifters).

I have heard everyone hear say supporting things about both of the bikes you started out talking on; with some additions on your first 2 choices. I would recommend cancelling the Roadeo and look at the other options. I would not go 11sp because I think that these bikes work great as 9sp or less (with a triple front ring you can run the whole gamut with the proper cassette).

I would say that you are only at the beginning stage of making your decision and once you know all of the choices front and back you will make your choice of what you want and will ride. This will make the first day of ownership be just as special as every day you ride the bike. I would be surprised if you bought another bike ever again, and if you did I am certain it would be another Rivendell.

Buy something that has tire clearance, buy something that can accept a rack. Enjoy yourself and have no regrets!!

[Tim Butterfield]

Wow.  So many great comments.  Thanks everyone.  It's given me a lot to think about.  I'll try to reply to a bunch of the comments.

Thanks again.

Tim

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks without having to change frames.

So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of each.

With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.

My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?

Thanks for any advice you have.

Tim

--

[Don Compton]

Amen to your post. I am an old roadie ( 64 ). My Roadeo is my 4th Riv. I have ridden some of my friends carbon bikes and they are wonderful. But, with my age and bad back, it's all about handling and comfort. And I love the lugged steel frames. GO RIVENDELL !!!!!!!

[Tim Butterfield]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 6:18 AM, Belopsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:

As to wear issues or weather, I wouldn't want to leave an AHH outside for long for many reasons...One of the reasons I sold my Hillborne was because I was commuting to work and it was too pretty to lock up, and bringing it in was annoying - theft isn't a huge problem here but still  the bike got a lot of notice..

For weather, though my AWOL is outside, it is under a cover, which is under a cabana, which has a low wall that blocks most things from the bike.  The open side of the cabana is towards the RV, which can block some wind from that direction.  So, though it is outside, it is not overly exposed.  Here’s a pic of the AWOL stored this way.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/27242013406/in/album-72157644371355428/

If storing a Riv like this results in problems, I could always put a large storage locker under the cabana to put the bike in.  Some RVers also have a utility trailer on their site for storing things.  I'm not quite ready for that yet, but it is an option if I need it.

[Tim Butterfield]

Shoji,

I did take a look at those, quite a bit actually.  I haven’t moved on the Roadeo for a couple of reasons.  They show the PBH for that one goes up to 82, while my PBH is 83.8.  I also had not yet decided on a Roadeo over a AHH.  The blue 55cm Sam would fit, but I excluded it also, at least for now.  This is a dream bike for me.  I don’t really want to compromise on it.  If I were willing to compromise, it wouldn’t have to be a Riv either.  I’ve been that route already.  When I can get the Roadeo or AHH dream bike, I’m not sure I want to settle on the Sam without a really good reason for doing that.  I don’t have sufficient reason yet.

For the rides I’m doing now, they are mostly tooling around on a paved trail or around town just to get exercise.  I want to expand that and do more of Fidalgo Island where I am, over into Skagit valley some, and maybe over on some of the other islands.  But, I want something that is just a bit more fun that I feel on the AWOL when I do it.

As for possible theft, it is possible, but probably not likely.  There are some other long term RVers around me along with video recording.  If someone where to want to steal it, they would have bring tools to cut it loose  The AWOL is locked to the cabana post with a heavy cable that passes through the frame through a couple of slits in the cover.  You can see that in the picture I linked above.  For a Riv, I would upgrade the locking cable to a nice U-Lock and chain with pitlocks for the wheels and seat.  My Ortleib handlebar bag is detachable and is stored in the RV.

Thanks.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Brian,

Thanks for that info.  I think the possibility of maybe wanting a rack in future may rule out the Roadeo.  I don't know that I'll want racks, but it's certainly possible.  So, I think this narrows down my choice to the AHH.  Yeah.  One more decision done.  :)

Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 7:15 AM, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have had an AHH for 5 years now. I love the bike. It has been built up in many configurations and handled all of them very well. Currently, it is set up for Commuting/Road/Rando riding. All in minus. repair kit it, weighs 24.9 pounds (lights/fenders/ pedals/ water bottle cages and Brooks b17 included). With out the dyno hub/fenders and lights it would be pretty close to a Roadeo in total weight. My point being is that it is easier to make your AHH, Roadeo-like that it is to make your Roadeo, AHH-like.

In addition, the AHH also for racks and carrying stuff where the Roadeo is not designed with those things in mind. Both are great bikes but he AHH give you more flexibility as your needs change.

[Tim Butterfield]

Patrick,

Hi.  It’s been a while since we chatted on the Minimal list.  I see you’re still enjoying your Riv and have added another to the stable.  That’s great.  I think it was a comment you had made quite a while back.  I came across it while searching the group and it made me think of the versatility of the AHH.  Comments by others have added to that view.  Thanks for that.

> And all the mind-spinning fretting I did would have been far easier if I'd just spoken to Grant and Co. once and let them run with it and ridden what they sent me.

I’ve thought of that also.  But, if I did that, would it really be mine or still theirs?  I think I need to personalize it a bit and make it mine to be more mentally invested in it.

Thanks for the the ideas.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

masmojo,

You echo some of my sentiments on this.  I don’t want something just for today or even this year.  Part of that is the desire to be mentally invested in my choices as I mentioned to Patrick instead of letting Grant or someone else at Riv pick it for me, as wonderful as that result might be.  Of course, all of this information I am receiving on the group is a great help in helping me think through and narrow down my choices.  I want something that I can ride for many years and that can handle the tweaks of whatever I might want to do with in future.  A versatility that allows that speaks to me.  I think that may be why I didn’t look too much at the Atlantis.  I doubt I would ever do a long tour on it, but also view it as not quite roady enough for what I want to do first.  Until I put down my deposit, I can be convinced of something else, but it looks like the AHH may be the best fit so far.

Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 8:14 AM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Out of the two you've presented the HH is the most versatile and would be my recommendation (especially considering you weight, in fact I think maybe even an Atlantis might be worth considering). A couple other things to consider,  first no matter which you choose the ability to turn around and sell it if it's not to your liking is probably unparalleled in any other bike. Secondly,  you might consider your age and where you will be with cycling in 5 or 10 years!? In other words think of it as a long term relationship and not solely about what you ride or how you ride now!

[Tim Butterfield]

John,

I would ride roads more than trails.  Currently, my riding is all paved except for a few hundreds yards.  Half of that is grass, the other half gravel.  There are some trails I would like to ride, but I would be riding pavement to get to them.  For handlebar position, I think I want a drop bar, though I want the drops below the saddle with the tops above the saddle.  Of course, that may change as I gain experience on it and tweak things more.  For tires, I'm leaning toward the Jack Brown Blues or maybe some Gravel King (slicks).

Thanks.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Tim,

Lots of great info.  Thanks.  If I go with bar ends, I was thinking of running the cable along the bar, existing the tape vertically through a notch in the inside of the brake hoods.  That may keep the cable loop from going too far forward and interfering with a bag I may mount in the front later.  This might avoid the friction of following the bar further along while still keeping the cable tucked in a bit.

> I changed the right bar-end out for a 10-speed indexed Shimano BS79 shifter

I took a look at that shifter and one thing let to another until I was looking at the Shimano SL-BSR1.  I hadn’t thought I could get an 11-speed group with bar ends.  That’s tempting, though I would be giving up the friction option.  Like you say, it’s only a twist of the adjustment barrel every so often to tweak it.  But, then again, after reading the comments after yours, I wonder whether I would be better off with the standard 3x9 from Riv.  I do like the gearing on that.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

dougP,

Thanks for the mention of the cable routing thread.  I'll do a search and give it a read.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Will,

Do you think a Sam is more versatile than an AHH?  I'm kind of set on an AHH, but am open to considering a Sam if there is sufficient reason to do so?

Thanks

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Zach,

I agree.  The responses on this thread have been wonderful, including your response.

I may be a bit further along than at the beginning.  After all, I've been thinking of a Riv for many years.  I think I have the bike choice narrowed to just the AHH, mostly thanks to the comments on this thread.  I would be comfortable placing the order for an AHH now to get it started, though I'm not in a rush to do so.  Though possible, it's not likely to change from this.  The only remaining issue on starting the AHH order is whether to get standard blue or go for a custom color.  The standard blue is a safer choice.  A custom color would make it unique, but may hinder sale later if I ever did want to sell, though I cannot now envision ever wanting that.

Even after placing the order, I will still have a bit of time, maybe a couple of months, to finalize component selection.  Your mention of the 9sp or less is what triggered the re-think in my response to Tim.  Maybe the standard Riv 3x9 is sufficient or even to be preferred.  I know it would be sufficient.  I'm not sure about the preferred part yet.

For some of the other components I'm narrowing down choices on...

Bars - Nitto Randonneur - I want a drop bar and like the flare out of the drop on these.  Earlier, Tim removed my worry about possibly using brifters on it.  I had the FSA Wing Pro on my VO Rando and it was nice.  I think the Randonneur flare may be a little better for me, though that's just a guess right now.

Wheels - Since I am not likely to need much lighting, battery power should be sufficient for lighting instead of getting a dyno.  If I ever do any touring later, I can get a dyno hub for the second wheel set.  I like the idea of Phil hubs, but am leaning towards the standard Riv wheels.  I don't know enough about Phils to know if extra cost difference would be worth it for my application.

Thanks.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Joe,

You're not much older than I.  I'm 51.  On the idea of planning ahead as mentioned earlier, I'm not sure I want to learn to use friction at this point either.  Who knows how long my hearing may last.  So, some type of indexing would be preferred, whether indexed bar ends or brifters.

Thanks.

Tim

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bianchi uses Dia-Compe (same internals as Silver) friction shifters with a 10-speed cassette on their L'Eroica bike. Or you can use 10-speed indexed bar-ends, which would be my preference (front is still friction). I've pretty much walked away from rear friction at this point; at 54-years-old I've lost the fine hearing necessary to hear what's going on with the chain/cassette back there, and can't tell if I'm properly in gear anymore. I'm old!

[René Sterental]

So much great advice!

Go for the Homer, set it with 9 or 10 speed, double or triple, downtube shifters (indexed) and ride it.

You'll be able to easily fine tune your cockpit without messing with your drivetrain every time. When you settle on the cockpit, you'll know if you want to keep the downtube shifters or switch to brifters it barends. 

That's what I did and now I'm using then in all my bikes. It's seldom that I need to shift both at the same time. If you get a double front, it's easier than ever. I love the indexing and won't go to friction. 

An 11/36 in the back with a 24/40 or 26/40 or higher combos will give you everything you need in a super simple and reliable setup. 

And since you won't be doing heavy touring, the Homer is the best you can get. 

Enjoy the journey!!!

René

[Tim Butterfield]

> You'll be able to easily fine tune your cockpit without messing with your drivetrain every time. When you settle on the cockpit, you'll know if you want to keep the downtube shifters or switch to brifters it barends.

I like your reasoning, but then I had to go research it a bit and happened to reread Sheldon on shifters.  Regarding down tube shifters, he said, "Once you get used to having the shift controls on the handlebars, you're unlikely to ever want to go back."  About bar ends, he said, "Bar-end shifters are the most versatile of handlebar-mounted shift options for use with drop handlebars."  Strangely, I also recalled briefly owning a 1982 Bianchi Limited that I switched from bar ends to down tubes.  Unfortunately, I didn't keep it long before I upgraded to the VO Rando and thus do not remember much about the experience.  It's certainly more to consider, though.

> And since you won't be doing heavy touring, the Homer is the best you can get. 

I now think so also.

Thanks.

Tim

[Philip Kim]

I've owned a Hillborne and Cheviot, before settling on the San Marcos. This I'm building up for my gf, and then waiting for a Hunq, which should be ready in a couple of weeks

Once you own one, you want to own them all. They all ride great, but due to limitations in space and money, I settles on the Hunq and San Marcos. The San Marcos is a bit zippier than a Hillborne. 

From reaching out to people who've ridden both the San Marcos and the AHH, it seems the San Marcos is a bit zippier than the AHH. Maybe it could be a nice middle ground between the AHH and Rodeo? Also a bit cheaper. Not as nice paint, but Riv geo and lugs.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 10:38:33 PM UTC-4, Tim Butterfield wrote:

I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks without having to change frames.

[Tim Gavin]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tim,

Lots of great info.  Thanks.  If I go with bar ends, I was thinking of running the cable along the bar, existing the tape vertically through a notch in the inside of the brake hoods.  That may keep the cable loop from going too far forward and interfering with a bag I may mount in the front later.  This might avoid the friction of following the bar further along while still keeping the cable tucked in a bit.

> I changed the right bar-end out for a 10-speed indexed Shimano BS79 shifter

I took a look at that shifter and one thing let to another until I was looking at the Shimano SL-BSR1.  I hadn’t thought I could get an 11-speed group with bar ends.  That’s tempting, though I would be giving up the friction option.  Like you say, it’s only a twist of the adjustment barrel every so often to tweak it.  But, then again, after reading the comments after yours, I wonder whether I would be better off with the standard 3x9 from Riv.  I do like the gearing on that.

Thanks.

Tim

Tim-

Cable routing:

Your routing plan sounds OK.  But I didn't mean to suggest that there is noticeable friction when the cables are routed all the way to the stem.  Theoretically?  Yes.  In observation?  No, not if you use care to keep the bends as gradual as possible.

I routed my shift cables along the bars to the stem, where the loops cross over to the opposite side of the downtube, and then cross over again between the downtube cable stops and the bottom bracket cable guide.  This makes the loops from the bars to the downtube more gradual, and it keeps the cable housing from rubbing on the head tube.  aka Sheldon Brown "criss-cross"

Drivetrain:

3 x 8 or 9 is excellent.  You can use a medium-range cassette (11-28 or 30) with a Riv/touring triple and still get good gear spacing but a wide gear range.  Also, 8 or 9 speed gear is more durable (wider chain spacing) and cheaper.

2 x 10 or 11 is also excellent.  But you have to use a wider-range cassette to get the same gear range as a triple, and the gear spacing will be wider.

If I'm dead set on using brifters, I prefer a double crank.  If I'm dead set on a triple crank, I prefer bar-end shifters.

In my experience, brifter triple shifting is picky.  It works best with the standard Shimano road triple (50/39/30) and doesn't like to work well with other ring combinations (especially rings without ramps & pins).  

Whereas, shifting a triple with a Silver bar-end is super easy.  And shifting a double with brifters seems to work pretty well.

I use a Silver left shifter and indexed Shimano right shifter on both of my bikes with triple cranks.  I use brifters on both of my bikes with double cranks.

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 11:09 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

For some of the other components I'm narrowing down choices on...

Bars - Nitto Randonneur - I want a drop bar and like the flare out of the drop on these.  Earlier, Tim removed my worry about possibly using brifters on it.  I had the FSA Wing Pro on my VO Rando and it was nice.  I think the Randonneur flare may be a little better for me, though that's just a guess right now.

Wheels - Since I am not likely to need much lighting, battery power should be sufficient for lighting instead of getting a dyno.  If I ever do any touring later, I can get a dyno hub for the second wheel set.  I like the idea of Phil hubs, but am leaning towards the standard Riv wheels.  I don't know enough about Phils to know if extra cost difference would be worth it for my application.

Wheels:

Riv/Rich recommend mid-range Shimano hubs, which are quite good.  They're less expensive than boutique hubs, and any shop (or you) can service them easily.

Pauls are nice (I have a set of 90s vintage freewheel Pauls), but I'm not convinced that they're worth the huge premium.  

I bought a Velo Orange Grand Cru Touring hub for my latest wheel build; it's about the same price as Ultegra hubs but it has cartridge bearings and is field-serviceable without tools.

Bars:

I love the Nitto Randonneur bars, but be warned that they come in a couple variants, the B132 and B135.  I use the B135 because they have shorter reach (tops).  This works better with brifters and/or TRP RRL brake levers, which have somewhat long ramps (I use B135s with TRP RRL levers on my two triple-crank-equipped bikes).  I feel that the B132's longer reach would put the brake levers too far away for comfort; that bar would work better with vintage brake levers with shorter ramps.

However, the B132 only comes in one width, 42 at the tops / 45 cm at the bottom.  It's a bit narrow for me (I'm 6'1") but I really like the feel.

The B135 comes in two widths, 42 or 44 at the tops.  

The Noodle, in comparison, comes in a ton of widths.

B135 45cm

B132 44cm

Just for fun, here's the 44cm Noodle.

B177 44cm

[Justin August]

If I were ordering a new AHH I would ask for the following customization:
- Paul Racer Braze-ons
You won't regret having these brakes! I would also choose a custom color and use Compass EL tires.

-Justin

[Christopher Wiggins]

Tim,  I'll be honest I didn't read all the responses,so I don't know where you are on this.  I have Sams, Appas and I own a AHH that you could ride.  It's a bit of a drive, but it may clear things up a bit.

Chris Wiggins

Owner

A1 Cyclery

Indianapolis IN

[Patrick Moore]

I run my Silver bar end shifter cables under the tape so that they exit near the bar clamp. I shift 9 speeds, non-serial cogs (ie, home made cassette) with no problems. VO copies of the Maes Parallel -- long ramps.

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 10:45 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

One thing I have noticed from the bike pictures that included bar end shifters is there seems to be more cable looped in front of the bars.  If I decide to add a front rack and bag later, would that extra cable have any interference from that?  Just wondering if there are any gotchas to be aware of.

Just to be clear on this, I don't know what I may add in future, rack/bag, handlebar bag, etc.  My preference is for neat and tidy cable routing.  If barcon cables can be mostly tucked under the bar tape instead of big and loopy, they may still work for me.  But, I don't know how neat and tidy routing may affect cable life.

Tim

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

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Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[René Sterental]

I went from brifters on my pre-Riv road bikes to barends when I got my Homer, my first Rivendell and pretty quickly to downtube shifters as I was messing up with the cockpit a lot on all my subsequent Rivendell bikes. I like them so much in not even planning to try anything different in my upcoming 650b custom. Downtube shifters on all of them!

Even on the Betty I placed them on the stem, so I'd be free to play with the cockpit. 

The best Rando handlebar is the Compass one. Best geometry and super comfortable. I tried the Nittos before. Might still have one for sale. The long ramps are probably not too ideal for brifters unless you want the long reach. 

I just upgraded to 2x10 on my Bike Friday which uses barends and it's wonderful. 

All the best, you can't really go wrong!

René

[Surlyprof]

I think the Hillborne has a little more versatility than the Hilson.  I believe the tubes are a little stouter (not totally sure about that) and the tire clearance is a little wider.  That said, given the riding you do and the goal of "dream bike", the Hilson always struck me as one of the most elegant bikes Riv makes.  I've always wanted a Hilson or Rodeo and a Hunq.  My Sam was the more affordable compromise.  Given the photos people have posted of their Hilsons in exotic locations, it seems plenty versatile.  I'd also +1 the Compass tires.  None of my tires ride as fast and smooth as my Barlow Pass ELs.  They were recommended to me by the group and it is the best advice I've received (among a lot of great advice).

Enjoy your build!

John

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Phillip.

I know Grant designed the San Marcos, but it's a Soma and, to me, not a real Riv that is currently sold at rivbike.com.  For that requirement, I think the AHH is as good as I can get.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Tim,

That's an interesting take on 2x for brifters and 3x for bar-ends.  I'll need to think on that for a while.  I think right now that's what I'm the most undecided about.

For wheels, I want good and serviceable, but don't want bling I have to keep polished to look okay.  So, the mid-range Shimano will probably work well for that.

I was originally thinking B135 for the Nitto Randonneur, but the comment by René has me leaning towards a 44 Compass now.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Justin,

When I spoke with Dave earlier today, he mentioned Pauls now come in a bolt-on.  Is there enough of a performance difference to get the Pauls insted of the Tektro R559?  I like the mention of the Compass EL tires, especially the Barlow EL mentioned by Surlyprof.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Chris,

It's more of a drive than you think.  From Anacortes, WA, getting Walnut Creek, CA is less than half the distance to Indy.  Thanks for the offer, though.

Tim

--

[Tim Butterfield]

Good to know.  Thanks.

[Tim Butterfield]

René,

Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm not too worried about messing with my cockpit for a while.  Until I live with it for a while, I have not way of knowing whether any potential change is a real need for that change or just a lack of adaptation on what is already there.  Because of that, at least to begin with, I would like to get everything fixed in such a way that it is easier to leave it as it is and adapt to it than to change it just because it is easy.  I need to ensure any reason for change is real and not just imagined.

Thanks for the Compass bar mention, too.  I like it and have put the Compass Randonneur 440mm on my tentative build list.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Surlyprof,

Thanks for the Barlow mention.  I like them.  I've updated my tentative build list to have the Barlow Pass EL/black  instead of the Jack Brown Blue.

> I think the Hillborne has a little more versatility than the Hilson. 

I wonder about this statement.  My needs are unlikely to ever extend to longer touring.  I think the AHH has more capacity in that area than I will ever use.  So, for Hillborne versatility, are you referring to that aspect or do you think it is more versatile on the lighter side?  In what way is it more versatile?

Thanks.

Tim

[Joe Bernard]

I agree about brifters and triples. They...what's the word I'm looking for here...SUCK.

[Surlyprof]

I think the Hillborne is a little heavier duty than the Hilson but that may just be uninformed personal perception.  The folks at Riv could answer that for sure.  Grant said he couldn't tell the difference when he rode his Hillborne or his Hilson (http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/88710677759/the-sam-in-many-ways-a-few-ways-is-the-best).  I have noticed a little flex in the fork when I'm riding trails but that actually smooths out the ride.  I would guess it would be similar on the Hilson.  The fact that several in the group have camped with Hillbornes and Hilsons, I'm sure both are plenty heavy-duty for the riding you're describing (which is similar to my own).  I've ridden home with 8 bottles of wine distributed in panniers, saddlebag and shop sack/basket.  I don't recommend this stupidity but it handled the load like a champ.  Personally, I think the Hilson is aesthetically a more elegant bike although I love the more sloping top tube on the Hillborne and the more low-key lugwork.  I ride a 56 with an 87 pbh and the clearance at a stop light is perfect.  I got to try a 58 Hilson with 650b wheels once at Riv HQ and, to this day, I think that was the nicest bike I've ever ridden.  Smooth as silk.

John

[Tim Butterfield]

John,

Thanks for explaining.  I had heard the Hillborne may be a little more heavy duty also, though my needs don't extend further in that direction.

I think my initial order is set:  AHH, size 57, stock blue

I looked at the Waterford colors and also thought about a custom color.  But, the stock blue is too pretty to pay the upcharge for something else I may or may not like.  It's not worth the risk to me.

I already have some black Race Face Aeffect pedals, which are similar to the Thin Gripsters.

I will have a couple of months to determine the remaining components.  So far, the only items I'm relatively settled on are

Brooks Cambium C17 Carved

Compass Randonneur handlebar  440mm

Compass 700C x 38 Barlow Pass extralight / black

I still have a ways to go on the other things we've been discussing.

What do folks think of leather handlebar tape?  I like the idea, but wonder how it might be to live with.

Thanks.

Tim

[Avery Wilson]

I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone getting an A. Homer Hilsen and regretting it. Hands down, it's just a fantastic road bike. It's certainly the best I've ever ridden. My dad, a dedicated carbon-riding roadie has ridden it and conceded that it has a "magical" ride quality about it.

See below for relevant stats if interested:

I am 5'10" with an 88.5pbh. I ride a 2010 black and cream Waterford-built 61cm Homer that I've had canti bosses brazed onto the back, and swapped the fork for an old stock cantilever Hillborne fork. Since I'm long of leg and short of torso, I use a 6cm technomic fork with 46cm Noodles. I'm running Soma Supple Vitesse 42mm tires with sks P50 fenders and it's just perfect.

You will love the Homer.

Avery Wilson
Indianapolis, IN

[Tim Butterfield]

Thanks, Avery.  I'm looking forward to riding my Homer.

[Tim Butterfield]

Well, my component choices just got a bit more complicated.  Isn't that what always happens?  It might not be quite as roadish as initially anticipated.

The problem was I got to thinking of future uses as has been mentioned before.  That thinking can often cause these problems.  I expect my AHH to arrive sometime in August.  Just a few months further down the calendar, winter will be starting.  Here in Anacortes, that means it is getting dark earlier.  If I want to do any riding after work, I'm going to need lighting.  With the whole ride being in the dark, I don't want to have to keep recharging batteries.  See what's happening here?  It's like the thin edge of a wedge.  :)

If I'm not using battery lights, that means a dyno hub.  Now, I'm into custom wheels also.  Might as well do the rear, too.  This little detour has added these to my tentative build list:

Busch&Muller IQ-X headlight (black)
SONdelux Wide Body Dyno Hub 36h
Phil “Rivy” Rear Hub 36h

The winters are wet here, so I might as well add these:
SKS/ESGE LongBoard Silver Fenders

Well, I'm almost there anyway.  What about racks?  This isn't full touring, though.  So, let's keep it light with these:

Nitto Mark's Rack M1 - 20108
Nitto R-14 Top Rack

Less than six months after getting the AHH, it's role has already progressed beyond my initial guess.  It's not quite as roady as first thought, but probably more usable.

These are just my initial guesses at my options.  Feel free to convince me otherwise.  I can always use an education and reasoning on options will help reaffirm choices.

Thanks again for all of the assistance.

Tim

 

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks without having to change frames.

So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of each.

With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.

My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?

Thanks for any advice you have.

Tim

--

[John at Rivelo]

Dear Tim,

We're down in Portland, and have Joe Appaloosas (and more Clems on the way), as well as some other demo bikes to try.

Come on down if you have time/interest.

John @ Rivelo

[Tim Butterfield]

Hi, John.

Thanks for getting in touch.  It would make for a long day, but if you have an AHH to compare to, I would love to take a look.  I'll follow up with you off list.

Thanks.

Tim

[Will]

Consider a Shutter Precision dynamo. Riv sells a wheelset using it.

Consider a Tubus Logo Evo for the rear rack. Very good rack, fits Ortlieb panniers, carries weight lower, and is set up for the best rear dyno powered light: B&M Topline.

Consider Pitlocks for the wheels and seat post.

[Tim Butterfield]

Will,

I had looked at the Shutter Precision dynamo, but hadn't see the stock wheel with it.  Thanks.  I also looked a the Peter White page Riv links to, which is where I found the SON I mentioned.  I wonder if there is much drag difference between them.

As for the Tubus Logo Evo, it seems more oriented to touring, which I have no plans to do.  The light mount aspect is interesting, though.

I am definitely planning on a set of Pitlocks.

Thanks.

Tim

[René Sterental]

+1 on the SON hubs. All my bikes have them, except for the Homer at this time.

The R14 is great if you're just going to use a Medium/Large Saddlesack. For panniers, even small ones it won't work. I have one but not mounted now. I just ride my Homer with a small Trunksack in the front on the Mark's Rack for light stuff like wallet, keys, phone, and use an Acorn Large or Medium Saddlebag, depending on the season.

Honjo fenders is the way to go, I don't like the plastic ones.

I also agree that the original Waterford blue is the best color for the Homer; just as the original Waterford green is the best color for the Atlantis. Toyo frames for both have a different shade, but I find the Waterford colors so perfect that when I repainted my Atlantis, I just went with the same color and personalized it with the panels. In fact, I believe that all the original colors for all Rivendell bikes with the exception of the Hunqapillar gray/plum are perfect. Choosing a color for a custom bike/paint job is so hard... And you don't always like it long term as much as you thought you would...

After a very excruciating process and change of hearts, I decided to go with silver for my custom. It will have polished lugs. When I repainted my Hunqapillar my final debate was between silver and pewter. I chose pewter and even though I liked it a lot, there was something "missing" after a while. So I'll go with silver this time and hope the feeling it evokes lasts just like the Homer and Atlantis colors have. Even the Betty.

Based on what you said for your cockpit, plus your choice of the Compass Rando bar, I'd suggest going with 2x10 barends. Like I said, that setup works much better than the 3x9 (with barends) I had before on my Bike Friday. I will recommend going with the XT 772 rear derailleur that can go up to 36 and works perfectly with the 10 speed setup while looking more classical and less black and weird like the MTB 10 speed derailleurs do. If you don't need to go up to 36 like I do, there are other choices. 

Enjoy!

[Tim Butterfield]

René ,

Thanks for the info.

I don't think I want panniers.  They seem too tour-y to me and I don't know I would ever have the need to carry that much.  I would prefer to strap on a single bag in the rear or even a basket if needed.  As for a front, I'm not really set on a front rack.  I have an Ortlieb Ultimate 6 Pro-M handlebar bag now and like the transparent cover, which is handy for maps, though I have not used that part of it much.  It's not too large, but is easy to reach.  And, with the lockable quick-release on it, it is so much easy to put on or take off without having to strap it down.  That aspect is appealing.  I guess I could also have that and the rack and alternate which I use as I see fit.

I had Honjo hammered fenders on my VO Rondo.  They were quite nice.  I wouldn't mind some more like those on my AHH.

I do plan to follow the advice you and Tim have made about 3x as brifters or 2x as bar ends.  I have not yet decided which, but am leaning towards bar ends with the cable routed under the bar tape.

As for the cassette, I wish the Riv elite wide 12-40 were still available.  I'm still weak and can imagine needing that, especially if I ever try to climb Mt. Baker some day.  Even here within Anacortes, there are some nice climbs on some of the streets.  Having a good low end would be helpful.

Thanks.

Tim

[Will]

Go here for SP wheelset: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/w6503236135dyno.htm

We have 4 bikes with Logo Evo's. None are used for tourning (though they could be). All are used with Ortlieb rear roll tops for toting stuff. They replaced folding Wald baskets. Here's the thing... they attach/detach in about 5 seconds. The attach/detach convenience means you'll use them ALL THE TIME. Some folks like front loads. I am not one of them. The front is for unencumbered steering and unobstructed light placement. I can get 95% of my commuter/errand needs in a handy roll top. It's out of the way. Does not change bike handling. It's one of those belated discoveries that really surprised me. Like you, I had no interest in panniers.

You'll love the Pitlocks. Hauling a big, heavy cable around sucks. The Pits weigh less than or equal to regular skewers. I use mine with a Abus Granit Futura Minu U lock. If you sink a heavy duty ring bolt into your cabana, or better:

http://www.abus.com/eng/Mobile-Security/Bike-Safety-and-Security/Locks/Wall-Floor-Anchors

The bike will stay loyal to you.

[John Hawrylak]

Tim

Just 1 comment on the handlebar WIDTH.  You chosen 44cm.  I went from a 42cm rando type bar (38cm at the hoofs) to a 44cm Noodle (actually wider then 44) and did not like it as much. I felt too open regardless of hand position.

Suggest considering or talking to Compass on width, especially at the hoods.  I know RBW prefers wider, but it was not an improvement for me

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 8:26:01 PM UTC-4, Tim Butterfield wrote:

John,

Thanks for explaining.  I had heard the Hillborne may be a little more heavy duty also, though my needs don't extend further in that direction.

I will have a couple of months to determine the remaining components.  So far, the only items I'm relatively settled on are

Compass Randonneur handlebar  440mm

[René Sterental]

I have the 44 on my Homer and it feels very nice. In theory, the narrower handlebars ar better for low trail bikes and the wider are better for higher trail bikes for handling. Of course, I still think it's quite personal. 

René 

[Surlyprof]

Tim,

I love Brooks leather tape.  Feels great and lasts.  I've moved the same set of tape across 3 different bikes and it is still holding strong.  I even crashed once and tore it in one place halfway across.  I just flipped the tape around, reinforced the back of the torn portion with Gorilla tape and rewrapped it so the torn part was covered.  Still going strong.  The only concern I might have is that you will have it outside in a fairly damp area.  I cover mine with Obenauf's regularly but in California it doesn't matter much.  Helps with sweat, I guess.

You'll never regret a Mark's rack.  So handy.  I would second the suggestions of the Tubus Evo and panniers.  I have a Cosmo that I've moved across three different bikes.  It may be heavier duty than you want but it isn't that heavy and the ability to carry panniers low is really nice because handles well and it leaves the top portion for other things.  You may not need it often but when you do, it is nice to have.  I would buy the Logo over the Cosmo.  The two prongs sticking up on the Cosmo wore through my Saddlesack.  I had to reinforce it with leather.  That wouldn't have been a problem with the Logo.

John

[René Sterental]

+1 for the leather tape. I use it on several of my bikes. The Homer currently wears the dark brown that matches pretty nicely with the C17 Rust saddle. 

[Deacon Patrick]

I'd suggest going with cheep cotton tape, no shellac, in the "bar discernment" stage (for me it was a couple of years before I found bar heaven, but I'm a slow learner and tried every variation of adjustment with each bar to be sure I wasn't just a tweak away). It's inexpensive, so I didn't feel bad about swapping things out, or spending lots of labor getting it on there, etc. Once you have the bars dialed in, then go for your bar clothing of choice. And who knows, you may find you love unfinished cotton. I get two+ years out of mine now before adding a layer, and someday I'll have too many layers and cut it all off and start again. Yes, it's uglier than shellac, but the feel is far better for me.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Brian Campbell]

Tim,

Here are some pis for comparison.

My AHH as currently configured:

 

I have used 46cm Noodle bars for the last 6 years. I recently switched to a set of Compass Rando bars 42cm and the bar shapes are cleary very different. After a 100 miles on the Compass bars I determined that they are not for me. I like have a flatish spot for my hands and the Compass bars do not provide that. See the differences below:

46cm Noodles:

42cm Compass Rando Bars:

I am 6'1" 185 and preferred the wider bars.

[WETH]

Wow, Brian, that is a beautiful bike. I am used to seeing lovely bikes here, but yours is really eye catching-the color, bar tape, etc.
Nice work.
Erl

[Brian Campbell]

Thanks!

[René Sterental]

Very very nice gray color! Bars are so personal. Also seems to depend on other ongoing stuff; today my hands, butt, feet and neck hurt. Other days nothing hurts. 

Here's my Homer with the Compass 44 Rando bars with Brooks tape. 

Can't go wrong with what you like!

--

[stonehog]

I like Noodles - like the curve back - fits my hands great.  I've tried 46, 42, and 44cm sizes, and like the 42s best (5'11" 87.5cm PBH), but that is a hugely personal preference and likely based on your body dimensions and how you ride.  

Like René, I like the Honjos or any aluminum fenders over plastic, but mainly based on esthetics and moldability - love a good fender line.  As far as racks go, I've tried most setups, and like a simple rear bag.  I love the convenience of a front bag, but keep it light and low unless you don't mind wheel flop.  

This worked pretty well for me on long rides: https://flic.kr/p/pgL8Ew  

At this point I've settled on this: https://flic.kr/p/zP7BQG

As you've probably noticed, there are a lot of different setups on this list.  Rivs are great that way - most versatile bikes ever.

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

www.stonehog.com

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

Very very nice gray color! Bars are so personal. Also seems to depend on other ongoing stuff; today my hands, butt, feet and neck hurt. Other days nothing hurts. 

Here's my Homer with the Compass 44 Rando bars with Brooks tape. 

Can't go wrong with what you like!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 3:21:37 PM UTC-4, WETH wrote:

Wow, Brian, that is a beautiful bike.  I am used to seeing lovely bikes here, but yours is really eye catching-the color, bar tape, etc.
Nice work.
Erl

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[Tim Butterfield]

Will,

Thanks for the link.  I think I would need this one for 700c instead of 650b.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/w70036135dyno.htm

The attach/detach time for the Ortlieb sounds great.  Are you referring to the Bike Basket model or a different model?

As for the Abus, that anchor would not work for me as I rent the site I am in and would not be able to drill holes to permanently attach a lock.  I am most likely to use a really good U-Lock and a heavy padded chain with a bit of extra padding around the top tube for protection while locked at home.  That might also allow simultaneous use of the bike cover like I do now.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

John,

Thanks for the width comment.  I'll check with them on width if I go for the Compass.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Brian,

Beautiful bike.  Thanks for the front look at the bars. Now that I see the angle, I'm not sure I would want the inward tilt on the tops. I may prefer flat tops also.  Is there a different bar with flat tops that still has a flare out at the drops?

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Brian,

Thanks for the info and pictures of your bike.  I'm 5'10".  I have been reading through bar possibilities here, lots of options to be sure:

http://ruedatropical.com/2009/03/road-drop-bar-geometry/

Tim

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:04 PM, stonehog <ston...@gmail.com> wrote:

I like Noodles - like the curve back - fits my hands great.  I've tried 46, 42, and 44cm sizes, and like the 42s best (5'11" 87.5cm PBH), but that is a hugely personal preference and likely based on your body dimensions and how you ride.  

Like René, I like the Honjos or any aluminum fenders over plastic, but mainly based on esthetics and moldability - love a good fender line.  As far as racks go, I've tried most setups, and like a simple rear bag.  I love the convenience of a front bag, but keep it light and low unless you don't mind wheel flop.  

This worked pretty well for me on long rides: https://flic.kr/p/pgL8Ew  

At this point I've settled on this: https://flic.kr/p/zP7BQG

As you've probably noticed, there are a lot of different setups on this list.  Rivs are great that way - most versatile bikes ever.

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

www.stonehog.com

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

Very very nice gray color! Bars are so personal. Also seems to depend on other ongoing stuff; today my hands, butt, feet and neck hurt. Other days nothing hurts. 

Here's my Homer with the Compass 44 Rando bars with Brooks tape. 

Can't go wrong with what you like!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 3:21:37 PM UTC-4, WETH wrote:

Wow, Brian, that is a beautiful bike.  I am used to seeing lovely bikes here, but yours is really eye catching-the color, bar tape, etc.
Nice work.
Erl

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[Tim Butterfield]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 7:23 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Is there a different bar with flat tops that still has a flare out at the drops?

I found this one.  It might be an option.  It  seems to have a bit of flare, but still has a flat top.

https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/handlebars/maes-1970s-handlebars/

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

You'll never regret a Mark's rack.  So handy.  I would second the suggestions of the Tubus Evo and panniers.  I have a Cosmo that I've moved across three different bikes.  It may be heavier duty than you want but it isn't that heavy and the ability to carry panniers low is really nice because handles well and it leaves the top portion for other things.  You may not need it often but when you do, it is nice to have.  I would buy the Logo over the Cosmo.  The two prongs sticking up on the Cosmo wore through my Saddlesack.  I had to reinforce it with leather.  That wouldn't have been a problem with the Logo.

 I'm having some visual discord between a Tubus Logo Evo rear rack and a Mark's front rack.  I would prefer they either both be black or both be chrome, but would prefer to avoid a mismatch between them.  A silver painted Logo wouldn't quite do it either.  I could get the Tubus Logo Evo rear, but would need a matching black rack for the front.  I could get the Marks' front, but would want a matching chrome rack for the rear.  Most of the Tubus front seem oriented to panniers, which I'm not likely to use on either end.  So, I could do my original guess of the Mark's front and the Nitto R14 rear.  Or, I could do the Tubus Logo Evo rear, but would need something for the font that was not pannier oriented.  Of course, I could use the Tubus Logo Evo rear and keep my Ortleib Ultimate 6 Pro-M front bar bag, not using a front rack at all.  Any further thoughts on this?

Thanks.

Tim

[René Sterental]

Stay with the original plan; Mark's front rack and R14 rear rack with a Medium or Large Saddlesack. You'll find out if you need panniers, but I doubt you will since you won't tour.

If you're set on a rear rack for panniers that goes with the Mark's rack, and want to keep it smallish, then I'd recommend the steel Tubus Cosmo. It's not painted silver with the plastic clear coat over it; you can see it in the photos of the original configuration of my Homer: https://flickr.com/photos/25160594@N05/sets/72157622508702300

René 

[Tim Butterfield]

René,
Thanks for the info and pictures.  That's a nice looking Homer.  I like the look of the stainless steel Cosmo, though it doesn't look polished.  I'm going to have to think further on the rack/bag selection.  I have several good options to choose from.

Thanks.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

What do folks think of wide cassettes?  There used to be a IRD/Riv 9 speed 12-40 "Elite Wide", but that has been discontinued.  (I wish discontinued items were not so prominently placed, but that's a different issue.)  I found there is a Praxis 10 speed Wide Range 11-40 MTB cassette available.  That should still work with indexed DT or BE shifters like the Shimano 7900.  Since I'm weak, I wonder if this might be better than a standard road cassette like a 11-32.  I'm definitely going to need a low gear if I'm going to try climbing any hills.

As for the DT vs BE shifters, I can see using either in rural areas.  My current leaning is toward 2x10 with 7900 DT shifters, indexed for the rear and friction for the front.  But, how might DT or BE shifters compare with brifters for urban usage?  Until I work up to it, most of my short-term use will be (small city) streets and paved MUP.  I'm wondering if brifters might work better in that environment.

Thanks again for all of the advice and ideas.

Tim

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Butterfield <timbutt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been thinking of getting a Rivendell bicycle for a long time.  I first joined this group to lurk back in 2010 and have been a member and sometimes lurker since then.  But, I had not made the commitment and purchased a Riv.  The closest I came was getting a Velo-Orange Rando.  That was sort of rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157624827193423

Being in the suburbs of Chicago near O'Hare airport limited my comfort using it the way it should have been.  That bike was sold before I left Chicago to live full-time in an RV.  Once we decided to settle in Anacortes, WA (still in the RV), I purchased a Specialized AWOL Comp, definitely not rivish.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/timbutterfield/sets/72157644371355428

It's a nice bike, but I now want something more rivish, this time, the real thing.  I'm thinking of getting either the Roadeo or the A Homer Hilsen.  I like the idea of the liveliness and sportiness of the Roadeo, but like the bit of extra versatility of the AHH also.  With my weight at 200+ (PBH 33" or 83.8cm, age 51), I'm leaning towards the AHH instead of the Roadeo.  I can start more roadish with the AHH and, as I build my abilities further, expand the bike to fit new and/or different tasks without having to change frames.

So, I'm fairly settled on getting my first Riv, one of the two mentioned.  My pondering now is mostly on how to appoint it.  My Rando was more modern with the 105 setup.  The AWOL was definitely modern with discs and SRAM setup.  But, I'm not tied to that.  Though I haven't used it much, I like the looks of a quill stem, drop bars, and downtube shifters.  It looks clean and simple.  I'm just not sure what it's like to live with.  I expect that, like many things, it is a matter of adapting to it.  But, using DT shifters or bar ends does set a direction as neither would work with an 11-speed I could have instead.  I'm trying to consider the pros and cons of each.

With my AWOL, I leave it locked to the cabana just outside my RV.  Some RVs have sufficient inside storage for a bike.  Mine doesn't.

My questions to the group are these:  As I am not yet doing longer distances, are there still benefits to the more traditional setups?  If I pick either one, what might I later miss the other may have provided?  Are there likely to be any weather related or other wear issues leaving a Riv locked to the RV park cabana like I do my AWOL?  I'm doubtful of that, but don't want to mistreat it either.  Any thing else I should consider?

Thanks for any advice you have.

Tim

[Tim Butterfield]

Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what would you think of that range?

Thanks.

Tim

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/29/2016 05:15 AM, Tim Butterfield wrote:

Building further on the 2x10 possibility, I did some further playing with Sheldon's gear inch calculator.  If I could pair the Sugino XD2 26t-40t crank with the Praxis 11-40 10 speed cassette, that would provide a range of 26x40=17.6 up to 40x11=98.2.  From 17.6  to 98.2 is quite a range of gear inches.  I not sure if I would use either extreme, but they might come in handy if I ever needed it, especially if I put a decent sized bag on the back rack.  For a weak rider that might have a mix of flats and hills, what would you think of that range?

It's not just the range.   Here's your proposed gearing (if not the exact cassette, close to it):

63.8	98.2
54.0	83.1
46.8	72.0
41.3	63.5
36.9	56.8
33.4	51.4
29.2	45.0
25.1	38.6
21.9	33.8
19.5	30.0
17.6	27.0

A good general rule is you want your main cruising gear, the one you use for level ground w/o winds helping or hindering, to be in the middle of the cassette.  Here you are on the 3rd position.  Going up has one moderate step and one pretty large one.  Going down, you have plenty - enough so that for anything but seriously hilly country you need never go to the small ring.  But when you do, look at what happens:  you drop so much you'll feel as though you dropped the chain, and will have to immediately upshift two to four times to get to the "next lower" gear, depending on where you are on the cassette.  That can be hard to live with.  Also, 17.6 is exceptionally low.  Most people only have a use for a gear that low in the most severe terrain when they are carrying loaded panniers front and rear.

[Brian Campbell]

Tim,

Thanks! There are a lot of options to try so I would think about a "test and learn" phase after buying whatever Riv model you decide on. Mine has been built in many different configurations and for my preferences and riding ( I am 48 and live in South Eastern PA) I learned the following:

1. I don't carry a lot, so lots of racks and bags while they are useful, got no use. They only increased the weight going up hill. They allowed me to fill them for contingency plans that never came into play.

2. The gearing is 46/30 12-30 10 speed. I use the Dura Ace indexed downtube shifters. I switched from 10 speed indexed bar ends and have come to prefer the downtube shifting. I think maybe because I grew up on it. This bike had brifters as well. They worked fine but I never really go used to the shifting motions.

3. The bike has evolved over the the years and now I try to keep it light (relatively speaking) and simple. 

There are lots of great ways to build up a Riv. They are able to perform well in a number of configurations. I would not obese to much about trying to get everything "just so" before you ride whatever bike for a bit. Experimenting is part of the fun. There are many people on the list to buy or trade components with if you want to try a different setup but not spend too much on an experiment. There are many ways to enjoy a Rivendell and best of all they adapt well as you and your ideas about riding evolve over time.

[Joe Bernard]

As I said somewhere earlier, DT is an acquired taste I haven't acquired. The choice between BE and brifters for a 2x system in the city is, IMO, two variations on the same idea of shifters on bars. I don't think one is "better" for the application, so I personally would choose BE because I like them. You'll be fine with either.

[Patrick Moore]

Very nice and well set up. You've got a pretty good fender line, too -- I have a problem getting a very nice line with my '03, and may have the rear bridge raised a bit. One thing Riv could do to perfect their offerings is ensure the right crown and bridge heights for fenders over max width tires.

I switched between 46 cm Noodles and rando bars on the Fargo (but mine were B 135s, 42 or 44 mm) and found them wonderful for dirt road riding, but I did miss the flat flats and, particularly, the option of using interrupter levers -- they felt very uncomfortable on the rising flats. (I'm smaller than you, and found the 46 Noodles too wide.) I  replaced those with 42 cm Maes Parallel copies -- needed a slightly shorter stem or slightly higher bar -- and these are even better.

The MPs have even nicer ramps than the Noodles, and have a shallower drop, which I prefer. Note that the Noodles curve backward bit and required a longer stem than the B 135s, let alone the MPs.

Noodles: 90 mm reach (but longish ramps; note that the flats curve backward) and 140 mm drop.

B 135s: 105/120

MPs: 125/115

I just saw that Compass no longer offers the 37 or 38 mm width; glad I bought my Rivendells some before they dropped those.

Note that VO sells cheaper (and not as nice) versions of the rando and Maes Parallels, which might be good for experimenting. One day I may replace the VO MPs with Compass ones on the Matthews.

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[Patrick Moore]

Perfect fender line! I'm envious. 

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 6:04 PM, stonehog <ston...@gmail.com> wrote:

I like Noodles - like the curve back - fits my hands great.  I've tried 46, 42, and 44cm sizes, and like the 42s best (5'11" 87.5cm PBH), but that is a hugely personal preference and likely based on your body dimensions and how you ride.  

Like René, I like the Honjos or any aluminum fenders over plastic, but mainly based on esthetics and moldability - love a good fender line.  As far as racks go, I've tried most setups, and like a simple rear bag.  I love the convenience of a front bag, but keep it light and low unless you don't mind wheel flop.  

This worked pretty well for me on long rides: https://flic.kr/p/pgL8Ew  

At this point I've settled on this: https://flic.kr/p/zP7BQG

As you've probably noticed, there are a lot of different setups on this list.  Rivs are great that way - most versatile bikes ever.

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

www.stonehog.com

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:38:16 PM UTC-7, René wrote:

Very very nice gray color! Bars are so personal. Also seems to depend on other ongoing stuff; today my hands, butt, feet and neck hurt. Other days nothing hurts. 

Here's my Homer with the Compass 44 Rando bars with Brooks tape. 

Can't go wrong with what you like!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Brian Campbell <bdcamp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks!

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 3:21:37 PM UTC-4, WETH wrote:

Wow, Brian, that is a beautiful bike.  I am used to seeing lovely bikes here, but yours is really eye catching-the color, bar tape, etc.
Nice work.
Erl

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[Patrick Moore]

Range is as personal as saddles or crank length, since depends on pedaling style as well as fitness. I'm not particularly fit by any means, but a sub 20" gear would simply gather dust on my bikes. I would use an 18" gear on a bike set up for steep singletrack at altitude, and I daresay, for loaded touring, but not for anything around town.

I live in rolling terrain and often carry (rear) loads, and find that even with a 30 lb load, a longish hill, and a headwind, I'd not want anything lower than a gear in the low 20s, particularly if more extreme gears at the ends interferes with closer ratios in the middle. Likewise, I'd never use a 98" gear either, and find a range between say 85" and 30" fine for the sort of pavement and dirt riding I do, loaded or not.

On my erstwhile Fargo, I had the X2D set up with Guard/38/24, and a 13-27 t 9 speed (friction, Silvers) which gave me a 40" low on the 38, enough for most paved hills, and a 25" bailout, which I don't think I ever used. But I had close middle ratios:

	38.0	24.0
13.0	83.3
14.0	77.4	48.9
15.0	72.2	45.6
16.0	67.7	42.8
17.0	63.7	40.2
18.0	60.2	38.0
20.0	54.2	34.2
23.0	47.1	29.7
27.0	40.1	25.3

Since I am limited to wide Q on the Fargo replacement Matthews due to the width of the stays (minimum would be no less than 168; presently 173-175 -- but then I can also run 3" 559 mm Knards should I want to) I decided to keep a triple and run Hi and Lo cruising ranges on 44 pavement and 40 dirt t big rings, with a 26" bailout. This gives me close ratios, a low enough range on dirt, and I can dump easily from pavement to dirt range without losing range or close spacing. 

15.0	83.6	76.0
16.0	78.4	71.3
17.0	73.8	67.1
18.0	69.7	63.3
19.0	66.0	60.0	39.0
21.0	59.7	54.3	35.3
23.0	54.5	49.6	32.2
26.0	48.2	43.8	28.5
30.0		38.0	24.7

This setup also gives me larger cogs and cruising gears with no or minimal chain deflection.

[Patrick Moore]

I should have added that one purpose of my gearing setups is to limit most riding to one ring.

As Steve indicated, you want to consider not only range, but also:

Cruising (ie, most riding and most wear) chainline

Ease of shifting

as well as:

Cruising gear spacing

Size of most used cogs (efficiency, wear)

Type of derailleurs

Q factor

Availability of components

And even crank length -- I find that I gear up 1 tooth with 175s compared to 170s.

Patrick "nothing is simple if you make it complicated" Moore, who prefers the simplicity of single cogs on his road bikes.

[René Sterental]

I still have a hard time understanding all these gearing calculations, so here is what works for me, FWIW:

- On my stock triple Sugino crankset provided Homer and Atlantis, I've gone to the 12-36 9 speed cassette and never use the large 46 ring, except on downhills. On the Betty stock 26/40 crankset with the 650b 38mm tires, I have a 9 speed 12-34 and that has been perfect for all the hills around Palo Alto. Therefore, I modified the Hunqapillar after it's conversion to low trail with a 24/38 crankset that proved to be "perfect for me" and I loved the down tube shifting for just two rings on the front, vs. having to always look down to position the FD correctly for the middle ring on the triple setups. That's why I'm about to switch that crankset to the Atlantis. Since the Homer is going to go to my son, so it stays in the family, for now at least, I'll leave it as is, with the triple and the 12-36. My son will use the large front ring a lot more than I will, at least until I lose the remaining 40+ lbs.

On my upcoming 650b custom, I chose to go 2x10 with a 26/42 René Herse crankset and 11-36 in the back. The Betty was very influential in choosing this setup.

On my Bike Friday, I have just removed the Shimano triple (Tiagra) and switched to a 2x10 setup: René Herse 36/52 with 11/36 in the back. I'm still playing with this setup as there is a bit of rubbing when pedaling with the chain on the large ring between the chain and the derailleur. I believe the ring is flat, so the flex comes from the flexible frame, but I have yet to troubleshoot it. There was no rubbing with the 9 speed triple, so more investigation is needed. BTW, the RH crankset and rings are just really beautiful and well made. Perhaps one will make it to the Atlantis as well. I like the design, the principles behind it and the fact I can get any ring combination I may ever want. And so far, I think the 171 crank length is really suited for my higher cadence pedaling style, as well as how I have been positioning myself on the bike.

René (still confused about gearing ratios but loving it!)

[Patrick Moore]

As I said, nothing is simple if you complicate it. I've been fascinated by gearing for 30 years at least; actually since my second bike build circa 1971 ("half stepped" an AW with 16 and 18 cogs). OTOH, my brother, whose history is shorter but who knows more about bikes than I, simply doesn't care about gearing -- if it feels good enough on the flats, on uphills, and on downhills, he's happy. He really has no idea what cogs he uses. Me, I can give you the exact gear inches of bikes I rode 30 or 40 years ago. Hell, I even give great thought to fixed gear gearing.

Patrick Moore, who used to work out gear charts in staff meetings.