New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

I used to own two Black Mountain Road bikes.  Both 59cm, both orange.  One lives at my mom's house and is set up as an all purpose road bike.  The other, at my house, used to be set up as a racier, lighter stripped down road bike.  I ran across an iBob lister who wanted a Black Mountain road frame for a little less than retail, and we struck a deal.  I took those dollars and my Hail Mary dollars and my Rivendollars to get a Leo Roadini frameset, and I picked that up today.  The build will be exactly what I had on my Black Mountain, except it'll have a quill stem and a 26.8mm seatpost.  The result will be a still-sporty road bike, but one that's a little more upright and civilized.  I think of it as having a vibe similar to what we used to call a "sport touring" bike in the 1980s.  My still-new Legolas will be my aggro-race-bike.  I expect to get right into the build tonight, since I have everything.  Fun detail: the quill stem will be a Nitto-Ritchey-Force from a 1993 XO-1.  I haven't planned out the fit in a super detailed way, but I might end up with the stem totally slammed.  This 57 has a tall headtube.  This frame will allow me to get the bars WAY up, if and when I need to do that.  For now, I expect that they'll be up even when they're down. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

P.S.  To their credit, multiple Riv employees asked "What are you buying this for?  You've got a road bike!"  When I explained the "trade", then they were like "Oh, OK, that makes sense then"

[SeanMac]

Bill,

I have a Black Mountain Road bike that I love.  It is my go-to bike for going out for a 1 - 4 hour ride on the road for fun or to "train."  I really look forward to hearing your thoughts about how your new Leo compares to your BMC road. . . . Oh, and pictures (of course)!

Sean
East Aurora, NY

[John G.]

Grilver or blue?

[Jonathan D.]

Excited to hear a ride comparison and see the new build.

[Bill Lindsay]

Obviously Grilver. Come on. The blue is nice but the Grilver is clearly the choice for anybody with taste.  ;-P

Seriously, though, I like the Grilver way more, maybe because I have a few blue bikes. The Leo headbadge has a growling feline, and the field behind the feline is half red and half green, which fits with the Italian impression of "Roadini" (and "Leo").  The Grilver has downtube decals that also feature the red/green accent colors.  The Blue one has downtube decals that do not have the red/green.  I wanted to tie the red/green into the whole build, so my bars will be wrapped half-green and half-red.  I've got about five different ways to implement a two-tone bar wrap, and I haven't decided which one I'm going to choose, but I have the roll of bright red and the roll of grassy green Newbaums right here.

BL in EC

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, John G. wrote:

Grilver or blue?

[Bill Lindsay]

We have a good digital scale in the lab at my office.  Frame+fork+headset weighed in at a stoutish  7.75 pounds. I'll separate frame and fork and get those rough weights separately before I start the build, and I'll compare that to my data for my 57 Legolas.  My recent 58cm Black Mountain Monstercross weighed 7.13 pounds for frame + fork + headset. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

I found my Legolas data from when I was posting about that build.  The Legolas frame + fork + headset was 6.30 pounds.  Apples to apples, the 57cm Leo Roadini is 1.45 pounds heavier than a 57cm Legolas.  That's almost the weight of one full water bottle.  That's pretty consistent with my expectations. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Belopsky]

Looking forward to photos Bill!

My new-to-me Wraith Hustle (Columbus Life tubing + Carbon Whiskey fork) is 4.56lbs ;)

[John G.]

I expected no less than Grilver, Bill. Very interested in your comparison of the Black Mtn and Roadini. Those long chain stays and that tall headtube look reaaaaal plush. And based on your brevet ride reports, I’m guessing a pound isn’t going to slow you down.

[Eamon Nordquist]

Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 1983 Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd choose too. It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job my Trek came with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.

Eamon
Seattle

[RichS]

Congratulations Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics of the newest addition to your bike family. "Civilized and upright" sounds like you won't use drop bars.

Best,

Richard

[Bill Lindsay]

Not use drop bars?!?  That's crazy talk.  Upright just means the tops of the bars are above the saddle. 

The build is pretty much done, just waiting for shellac.  Here are three lousy photos in bad light.  I tried to use flash but forgot about my reflective rim decals and reflective brake cable housing.  Hopefully you get the idea:

The build list goes something like this

Frameset: 57cm Leo Roadini, Grilver, FSA headset

Wheelset:  HED Belgium Rims, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica tires, SRAM 11-26 10sp cassette, control tech ti-skewers

Drivetrain: Compass/Herse cranks 44/30, White Industries BB, Shimano SPD pedals, CX70 Front der, Dura Ace 7900 Rear Der, Dura Ace 10sp index downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain

Components: Shimano BR550 brakes, Shimano 105 brakelevers, Nitto Soba Noodle bars, Nitto Ritchey "XO-1" stem, Nitto 65 Seatpost, Avocet Saddle

Accessories: Ti King Cage, Newbaums red and green cloth tape

21.8 pounds as pictured

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[lambbo]

incredible!

[Eric Karnes]

Kudos Bill. Always such great builds!

I'm looking to build some wheels with those White hubs...one of these days.

Eric

[tc]

Very nice!  Are the Eroicas 30 wide?  I can't wait for my 61 Roadini to get here - all these Roadini builds are making me jealous.  I almost went with downtube shifters, too.  But after testing the reach down during a ride on my 62 Atlantis, I opted for bar ends for the Roadini.  Felt too much like gymnastics on that frame anyway...we'll see.  Congrats!

Tom

[Edwin W]

Regarding Tom's worry about downtube shifters: a cool photo would be you on the bike in your comfortable riding position, and then a picture of you shifting. 

You would need some photo assistants, perhaps some props, and a creative director, I am sure.

Cool bike, cool bars, tight.

Edwin

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Nice job -- very practical build and beautiful bike!

Bob E

 

[Bill Lindsay]

The label on the Eroica says 700x30 but they measure 32.5 mm on HED Belgium 23mm outside width rims.

BL in EC

[Bill Lindsay]

The DT shifters have turned out WAY below the drops, so switching to barcons might be a move that happens down the road.

The other vote for non-downtube shifters might come up if I want to use this as a light touring bike. I have a Relevate frame bag that fits well under the top tube but then it kind of interferes with the DT shifters when it’s stuffed.

BL sin EC

[Eamon Nordquist]

Just curious, Bill... do the Eroicas and those brakes leave room for fenders?

Eamon
Seattle

[Dave Grossman]

Question for feedback later after some riding...........how does it compare to your Monster Cross?  I should probably just swap wheelsets for my MC and not buy this bike.  Question is, how different do they ride?  

[Bill Lindsay]

There’s 9-10mm of clearance at the tightest spots. That’s not enough room for fenders in my book, but it is enough room for some people. If I was intent on running fenders I’d look to go to a true 28-29mm tire.

Bill

[Bill Lindsay]

My Black Mountain Monster Cross and this Leo are set up quite differently in order to play different roles in my stable.

If you want one of each and want to set them up differently and want to use them for different kinds of rides , you’ll like them both.

If you want one of each and want to set them up the same and want to use them for the same kinds of rides and want them to provide significantly different cycling experiences on the same routes, you’ll likely be disappointed.

[Eamon Nordquist]

Thanks, that's what I figured. I think 57mm brake reach typically means 32mm without fenders, and 28mm with. Having had a front fender buckle on me decades ago, I'm very much in favor of NOT pushing my fender clearances (especially on the front).

Eamon

[Bill Lindsay]

I took Leo out for a first ride this morning on my normal 22 mile loop with 1800ft climbing around Wildcat Canyon.  It rode like a road bike, it rode like a Rivendell.  The setup is quite a bit more upright than my Black Mountain had been, so if I felt like sitting up, that was easier.  In full tuck, the stem was closer to my face than I was used to, but I was still able to get wherever I needed to go.  I didn't notice anything objectionable about the long chainstays, and the handling was exceptionally stable, so possibly the long chainstays helped achieve that.  On this loop, I decided to go "full send", as the kids like to say, on a ~10min segment from the top of Inspiration Point to the top of Spruce.  It's a roughly 3.5 mile segment winding through the Berkeley hills.  It's a fast, gradually descending segment, dropping about 200 ft total.  To make a good time you have to carry momentum and power out of every turn. There's one very short very steep ~15% climbing section that you can climb at ~20mph if you sprint hard.  It's a good benchmark road section.  Absolutely every roadie in the East Bay knows it, and there are roughly 10,000 Strava times to compare yourself against, running the spectrum from cruisers to pro-level racers.  I did a personal best on the Leo Roadini, at 8:24, 19 seconds faster than I did the day before on my Legolas (with knobbies) and was in the top 6% all-time.  Considering how many of those top 6% were done on <18 pound crabon race bikes, I think Leo qualifies as 'plenty fast'.  The best part of that result was that I was 2 seconds faster than the best time of our best racer on the high school mountain bike team.  Matt just finished 5th in the State in Varsity boys, so any time I can put up a time better than him, I celebrate. 

Bill call-me-Leo Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Pics or it didn't happen:

Perfect day in El Cerrito

[Eric Karnes]

That's your daily view. Why do I live in Philadelphia, again?

And congrats!

Eric

[Bill Eberle in Columbus, Ohio]

I think the Red-Green "tape effect" made that record possible. There's no other possible explanation.

[Abcyclehank]

No Bill you are clearly mistaken. If William has done a diamond harlequin pattern the time would have been clearly faster. He mentioned 4 potential wrap configurations; I think the route should be attempted to fine the fastest bar tape.

On a more serious note I commend and enjoy each story William posts about the mountain bike team. As a coach for 29 consecutive years I take great joy in reading and hearing his genuinely proud joy in their progress and accomplishments.

Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[Bill Lindsay]

Regarding the tape pattern, I went with this one quite deliberately. The “Roadini” text on the downtube is filled with two tone red and green on one side. Red on top green on the bottom. On the other side of the downtube the full is reversed: green on top red on the bottom. The wrap matches this effect on each side.

The other wraps I considered were:

All red on one side, all green on the other
All red on one side, except green strips at the brakelever. All green on the other side, except red strips at the breakelever
Red and green harlequin.
Red on top on both sides. Green on the bottom

[Abcyclehank]

Bill L. My apologies for referencing you as Will. Hope that does not ruin my credibility regarding appreciating your posts about the team.

I stand by my harlequin theory however.

Ryan “horrible with names” Hankinson
Somewhere in Michigan.

[Bill Lindsay]

No offense taken. My given name is William. My grandfather was Will. I go by Bill or Bubba. Old high school friends call me Cat. Ex coworkers from the bike shop call me Blintz. The kids on the high school team are actively engineering a new nickname. My fake rapper name was “Vanilla Bean”.

[stoker]

Nice build. You mention the bars are higher than most of your other builds - curious if you considered a stem with less rise? Or were you specifically interested in a higher position?

[Bill Lindsay]

Stoker asked whether I considered a stem with less rise. Yes, I considered purchasing a stem with less rise vs using the stem that I had. I elected to use the stem that I had on hand already, going for a less ‘racy’ position for the time being. I was going for a ‘sport touring’ setup in the classic 1980s sense. I think I nailed it.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[John G.]

Bill, any more thoughts on the Roadini vs Black Mtn Road? I went a size smaller than I should've on my Black Mtn, and I'm thinking of swapping its parts over to a 61cm Roadini. With a 90 pbh, I'm at the very lowest end of the range on a 61cm.

[Bill Lindsay]

John G asked if I had any more thoughts.

I’m not sure what exactly you are after. Are you asking which frame is ‘better’? Are you asking which frame I like more? Are you asking which frame is faster? Are you asking which one is more comfortable or more versatile?

If you want to buy one or the other and want me to decide for you, it has more to do with you. Both are very nice. Both are great values. If you always ride in ‘kit’ and always ride with the club folks in ‘kit’ and regard yourself as an athlete and keep track of your PRs on Strava, then I guess I would lean towards the Black Mountain. It’s serious but smart. If you like having a less ‘serious ‘ attitude towards your rides and want more of a Just Ride road bike, I’d lean towards the Leo.

BL in EC

[John G.]

Be my spirit guide, Bill! That's all I'm asking of ya! (I jest).

I always appreciate your observations about bikes, and was curious about overall impressions, especially on handling. I've ridden enough bikes and know enough about my own style of riding that I wouldn't expect myself to be significantly faster on either, and that what's comfy for me may be different than what's comfy for you. Your thoughts below are helpful--thanks for sharing them.

My Black Mtn is stowed away at my parents, mostly because my identically functional Mercian seemed to be quickly accumulating rust when left in their basement. 

[Bill Lindsay]

Now that there is a forthcoming batch of Leos in orange, your decision should be even easier.

BL in EC

[Austin B.]

Hi Bill,

I read your above thread and your initial ride report. I saw that you found the Roadini to be fast and stable. I am curious how it compares to your BMC in more specific ways which I attribute to "Sportiness" if you have found any to be discernible. 

With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?

Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are racing bikes, nor do I intend to race)

Which one has quicker steering?

All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given they are set up differently)

I ask because I ride a large frame, I'm mid-40's and want a tall stack, and I want a sporty, lively ride. I'm considering a Road+ vs a Roadini. Currently, I ride a Soma ES but the stack isn't quite high enough. And I have a strong desire for an orange bike--the orange Roadini is really appealing.

Thanks!

Austin B.

Sykesville, MD

[Bill Lindsay]

Austin asked for more nuanced comparisons than I have the vernacular to describe. So my short answer is that I have not found any discernible differences in 'Sportiness'. 

With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?  I don't know that the Leo has stouter tubing.  If it does, I do not discern it to be less flexible

Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are racing bikes, nor do I intend to race).  Not that I can say.  They both go faster the harder I pedal.  I don't run a power meter, so I don't know if one accelerates more quickly per unit power input

Which one has quicker steering?  Neither that I can discern.  They both go where my hips tell them to go

All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given they are set up differently) Both are fun

I'm sorry that I don't have the sensibilities or the words to be of more help to you.  I do builds with a purpose.  If the build serves the purpose, I keep it.  If the build doesn't serve the purpose, I move along.  I think the Black Mountain and the Leo are both great foundations for a pretty broad array of builds.  I think you should buy one of each, and set them up in complementary ways.  I have one of each, and I'm happy about that.  The bikes in my stable enable a broad array of ride-types.  I don't sweat the nuances of "sportiness" that I don't care about.  I dwell on enjoying the rides.  This morning's ride was a 10 mile round trip into Berkeley to buy some cheese and scones at Cheese Board and a pound of coffee at Vine Street Peet's.  The nuance I enjoyed the most was the accordion player outside of Cheese Board on a day so beautiful that it almost brought a tear to my eye.  Especially in that neighborhood, near Chez Panisse, on a day where Anthony Bourdain chose to take his own life, I'm reminded to fret less on the things that I can allow myself to not fret about.  Cycling is my meditation, builds are a form of my self-expression.  "Planing", "Sportiness" and similar nuances just aren't that important to me. 

I will gladly put money in Mike Varley's register in the future, and I will gladly put money in Rivendell's register in the future.  Choose one and enjoy it!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Austin B.]

Thanks for the reply, Bill. I appreciate the time you took and, despite your claims to not having the vocabulary to reply, your comments were much more helpful than you might think. I now have a clear preference on which frame to choose.

Thanks again!

Austin

[Joe Bernard]

Hey Bill, is Inspiration Point that spot with the circular parking area at Tilden Park?

[Dave Grossman]

I didnt know about the sparkling orange until now.....oh man. Now I want one even more.

[Bill Lindsay]

Followup ride reporting.  I did my 40 mile 3000ft commute to Union City today on the Leo, and I did it "Full Send" as the kids like to say.  In other words, I got after it.  The executive summary is that the Leo is definitely a keeper.  I set PR times on numerous sections that I've ridden many many times.  I definitely had a very good day on the bike, and I'm still feeling that nice euphoria of putting a really good ride down.  At worst, the Leo did not prevent me from having a great day.  The objective fact is, the Leo today (with me on it) was faster than my Black Mountain ever was (with me on it).  Qualitatively, the Leo today spun up faster than the Black Mountain ever did.  I think that's mainly because I had a good day, but I report it because so many people on this board claim to be able to make nuanced comparisons between bikes as if their body and fitness was a constant.  I assure you that my fitness, strength and attitude are not a constant, and that makes it hard for me to make comparative judgments about bikes.  Some people on this board make nuanced comparisons between bikes they haven't ridden in decades.  That depth of recall amazes me, and I don't have it.  I will say my Leo was a rocket today with me on it.  That came into play on the descent of Redwood Road as well.  It's a 28-33mph descent, and the pavement is mediocre.  The bumpiness tended to scrub speed on the Black Mountain, but Leo appeared to roll over the roughness with more stability, less speed-loss, and better comfort (with the identical build kit that had been on the Black Mountain.  I highly recommend the Leo for a non-racing road bike.

It is still kind of shocking to walk the bike, because the bars are SO high when I'm walking the bike.  I'm accustomed to them being lower.  The fact that it's more upright doesn't seem to make it slower.  It does have a 'vibe' or 'attitude' about it that made me feel a wee bit weird getting on it in 'kit'.  Conversely, I felt a wee bit weird getting on the Black Mountain Road without kit.  Both were fine in the costume or in civvies, but the difference in vibe is notable. 

BL in EC

[Austin B.]

^THIS^ is great stuff and is the answer to my "nuanced" questions I asked a couple posts ago. I'm not fast my most standards, but sometimes like to ride fast without being in a hurry (because as Jan H. says "Riding fast is fun"). Occasionally, I just want to push it and want the bike to to respond in kind.

I pulled the trigger on a prebuy for a 61cm Orange Leo last week--feeling good about it. The "kit" doesn't factor in as I've never had/worn one. But then I generally don't like clothes with words on them. 

And I like that you call it "Leo" Bill, and not "Roadini." If you don't mind, I might adopt that nomenclature (as I just did above, see that?)

-Austin

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't mind in the slightest if you refer to yours as "Leo".  I'll be interested to see what the 'fill colors' will be in your decals.  My fill colors on Grilver are red/green.  The apparent fill colors on the blue are transparent/navy.  I imagine orange might get transparent and navy as well, but maybe it'll be something different.  Enjoy it. 

Bill

[Dave Grossman]

Ugh Bill....you are contunuously making me want to finally get the Leo. Seems like everything I want in a road bike these days.

[lambbo]

Leo is the best!!!! Thanks Bill

[Austin B.]

It’s the Leo’s stack height that did it for me. I’m on a 62cm frame with a stack height of 636mm + 50mm of spacers + a VO tall stack stem. I’m at the top of my uncut 350mm steerer tube and my bars are still not quite level with my saddle.

There aren’t too many XL frames out there that get the stack height up. I still think that XL frames with a 6 degree sloping TT look gangly, but I’m going function over form here. At least it seems like things are trending in steeper TT and higher stacks (and wider tires) as an industry—good stuff!

[Dave Grossman]

I hear you Austin. My issue exactly. Anti long and low!

[Belopsky]

Read somewhere else online

low is fast

long is strong

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Christopher Murray]

Thanks Bill! I just put my Roadini in the work stand to build up. What’s your PBH? From your previous posts, I thought we were about the same size and mine is a 54.

With only the bars, saddle, and wheels on the thing that strikes me is how high the handlebars are. The bars look almost level with the saddle with the stem slammed.

Thanks,
Chris

[Bill Lindsay]

Christopher Murray asked me my PBH. 

86cm. 

[jack loudon]

Bill, thanks for all the informative reporting on your 'Leo'.  I've admired this bike from afar and you are making it very difficult for me to resist.  The Roadini would be a replacement for my Nordavinden, which has not been ideal for purely subjective reasons.  I was taken aback when you reported the Leo frameset weight of 7.75 lb (my 56 Nordy is 6.25#), but your ride report has offset this concern and made me a bit ashamed of my latent weight weenie-ism.  Awhile ago you mentioned the possibility of a lighter, custom frame built to the geometry of your BMC Road.  Does that still hold true, or would your custom road frame now be more along the Roadini lines?

Jack

Seattle

[Bill Lindsay]

I do have plans to order a frame or two from Steve Rex in Sacramento. I also have plans to someday order a frame from Jeff Lyon. If I buy a Lyon it will be a classic 650b Rando like ripped from the pages of BQ. He’s great at those and I think it’s a good idea to hire a builder to build something they know how to build, like to build and are good at building. If I order a Steve Rex it would be either a classic road frame or it would be a 650b adventure/gravel/bikepacker, both of which he’s good at.

If I wanted a more expensive Leo, I’d probably let Grant design that for me.

I hope that answers your questions

[Bill Lindsay]

Jack confessed to being a little ashamed of weight weenie-ism.

Trust me I do it, too. I sweat all those details to the extreme while I’m doing the build. Then after I ride it a few times I remember that a pound here or there doesn’t matter all that much if the ride is great. I worked hard to bring in the Leo build as close to 20 pounds as possible.

I’m already in the midst of a reconfiguration project that will add a tiny bit of weight to several bikes for good reasons. Here’s the tedious list:

-Shimano XTR 10-speed cranks were the last ones from Shimano with smart chainring sizes and 172.5mm length. I bought two of them.
-I just bought a cabin in Arnold Ca and tagged two bikes to live there: my mountain mixte and my Black Mountain Monstercross
-I put the 42/28 XTR crankset on the monstercross so both Arnold Bikes have the same cranks
-the 42/26 172.5mm White Industries VBC that came off the monstercross went on my Niner RLT9 for a bit lower gearing for adventure brevets
-the 44/28 172.5mm White Industries VBC crankset that came off the Niner RLT9 went onto Leo to make it slightly more ‘sport-touring’
-the Rene Herse 44/30 crankset and White Ind Ti BB are now free for a future ultimate Rando build

That’s all complete, and cost zero dollars, just some meditation in the stand. Next comes:

-My knee does hit my barcon shifter on my Legolas, and my chain does slap on rutted trails. I’m goin to succumb and install a SRAM Force clutch derailer and 10 speed brifter to improve that. I bought those parts while planning that build just in case
-the 10 speed barcon from the Legolas will go on Leo because it is a long reach to DT shifters on the upright Leo
-the 10 speed DT shifters will be a available for an ultimate rando build

It’s pretty clear I’m playing a shell game to justify ordering a new Norther/Lyon frameset. It would be great to sell two bikes before I do that...

Bill mad-scientist Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[jack loudon]

Bill said:  "If I wanted a more expensive Leo, I’d probably let Grant design that for me."

It's good of you to say that.  At one time I considered having Grant's geometry replicated by another builder in welded lightweight tubing, but wouldn't do this without getting Grant's consent and probably paying an appropriate royalty fee.

Jack

[Austin B.]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one with the consistent bike reconfiguration affliction, er, hobby.