Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[dougP]

Interesting piece on the blug about the Silver Shifter 2 project coming back to life.  Prototypes in house at RBWHQ, with photos. 

"It’ll work fine on the downtube and better (than ever, than original SILVER shifters) as a thumby or a bar-end shifter, because of the new shape, heavily influenced by the 1983 SunTour XC thumb shifter. Slight differences."

IIRC, Grant had posted something a while back about this project fizzing out for unstated reasons, so it's good to see it coming back to life.  I was pretty interested so looking forward to seeing the production version.  These look to have much more character than the stand-by Shimano bar end on Paul thumbie mount. 

dougP

[LBleriot]

I said it before and I'll say it again.  As DT shifters, these look as bad as the old Silver shifters used as thumbies.  Yuck.  Why not do something innovative and make the barrel on the right shifter larger to pull more cable/shift more than 8 speeds easily?

[adam leibow]

IME these work well with up to 10speed in the cable pull department, but I haven't tried 11sp. I've used them with multiple bikes, derailers, and cassettes/chains including 8, 9, and 10s, and combinations that don't technically match, like a 9s rear derailer with 10s cassette or vice versa. all as DT shifters. I have never used them as thumbies. excited to see the new design...

[Joe Bernard]

Why not buy a different shifter you don't think is yucky?

[LBleriot]

'cause then I'd be posting to another Google group, right?

[Bill Lindsay]

I think the point Joe is making is that many of us have been watching this project with interest and maybe some anticipation.  Some of us are fond of Rivendell Bicycle Works and would like to see them succeed.  When news comes out that a previously shelved project is rising from the dead, people are bound to be a little excited.  Instead of letting them have their fun, somebody chimes in "Yuck, that product that doesn't exist is bad, just as bad as the current product it will replace".  I think Joe doesn't see the constructive value in throwing a turd in the punch bowl.  That's all.  Maybe you thought you were helping Rivendell out by saving them from making a bad product, or maybe you thought you were helping us out, (since we don't know how to decide for ourselves) by informing us that this product that doesn't exist yet, is objectively bad. If everybody posted a negative comment about every product that we don't want to buy, that would be a lot of traffic on this board. Say something nice or ....

If you are sincerely in the market for friction thumb shifters for 10-speed drivetrains, you could have conveyed exactly the same idea with "I hope Rivendell has anticipated the rise of 10+ speed drivetrains and designed the right side shifter to pull enough cable".  Exactly the same comment, packaged nicer than "Yuck".  You state that it's too small, but it's not clear to me how you got that information.  Are you in on the design?  Or are you just guessing based on how it looks?  What should the diameter be?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Reed Kennedy]

If you need more cable pull it has already been innovated:

https://velo-orange.com/collections/shifters/products/dia-compe-ene-11s-dt-shifters

I figure that a bigger barrel will just make the shifter even more sensitive to small movement, though. I've had good luck with Silver V1s and Simplex retrofrictions shifting 10 speed, so I'll stick with those. If we ever run out of both of those, then I'll buy these:

https://velo-orange.com/collections/shifters/products/dia-compe-ene-w-dt-shifters

In other words, there are lots of good friction downtube options and fewer friction thumb options. I may like downtube better personally, but it makes sense to me that Riv is making the harder to get thing rather than the easier to get thing.

Got to check out the prototype Silver V2 when I dropped by the other day. It's looking good!

Reed

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[Garth]

Sheesh, we're all big boys and girls here, so someone expresses a "yucky" view of the shifters that are not even in production and no spec known, it's just an initial honest opinion, and you know what they say about opinions .......  we all got one.

So what !


Hey,  we all have our own ideas about all sorts of things and how it could be better. Sometimes we may say something, sometimes not, but we can't deny that the thoughts exist and there is no use in condemning them as that doesn't change that they exist.  So what ?    :-)

[dougP]

It's just levers pulling cable.  We all need to keep a bit of perspective.

dougP

[Joe Bernard]

But I'm not willing to play Mr. High Road. This thread is about the fabulous news that the new shifter project is back on - its earlier demise seemed quite depressing for Grant, a person I know and like - and I don't see the point in chiming in about how "yucky" it is. So no, I'm not going with "two sides to a story" and "everybody has an opinion." I'm not that nice.

[Bob B]

I bet it will work really well, because Silvers do and Riv cares, duh... Plus, prototypes are prototypes. Design is iterative.

I might be talking out of my ass here, but I was also kinda thinking the look of these shifters—besides taking a note from the old Suntours—could be part of an evolution in Riv's design aesthetic... industrial/post-war ridges/notches/grooves like the Appa fork and, Rosco graphics? Rodini headtube. The Chocomoose bars have a rigid, less flowy shape to them... I'm on board. 

Bob

Brooklyn, NY

[Christopher Murray]

If someone wants to express their dislike or critique of a product I think we should welcome it. Is this a discussion or cheerleading? I think if everyone can be polite and respectful then their should be enough room here for everyone’s opionions. I'm AM going with "two sides to a story" and "everybody has an opinion." I'm that nice.

I’d guess these were designed primarily as BEs and thumbies. I can’t tell you the last new Rivendell I saw with downtube shifters.

Cheers!
Chris

[John Hawrylak]

Is there an issue with the current Silver Shifters with cable pull??  I really don't know, but would appreciate an education.  I read the rBW description of currnet shifters and see only an issue with cog/derailleur movement

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 9:12:54 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Silvers work fine with 9-speed, and 10 would be the same throw. They're probably not great for 11, but I doubt there's any perceptible market for a friction 11-speed shifter. This criticism about barrel size doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/04/2017 08:58 PM, John Hawrylak wrote:
> Is there an issue with the current Silver Shifters with cable pull?? 
> I really don't know, but would appreciate an education.  I read the
> rBW description of currnet shifters and see only an issue with
> cog/derailleur movement
>

There is for Shimano DynaSys MTB rear derailleurs and Shimano Road 11.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[LBleriot]

I thought this was a forum where we are free to express and share our opinions of Riv products in a respectful and open manner. Is there some rule that I haven’t read requiring only positive reviews? I buy Riv products that I like; quite a lot of them actually. I don’t buy their products that I don’t like and when I disagree with Riv marketing I believe I have the right to share that here. If you don’t agree with my opinion that’s fine, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to stifle any opinion you don’t like.

[LBleriot]

In order to shift my chain to the largest cog of a 10 Speed cassette using a Silver shifter, I need to move the lever almost parallel to the down tube. Enlarging the barrel, like the VO version of the DiaCompe shifter, requires less travel of the lever. I happen to like the look of the Silver shifter better than the VO version and if it was made with a larger barrel, I’d buy it and use it. Does that make a lick of sense to you now?

[Joe Bernard]

So you want a Silver shifter that you like the looks of to have a bigger barrel like the Dia-Compe you don't like the looks of, which had nothing to do with the new shifter which is "yuck." No, I don't get it. Buy a shifter you like instead of trashing one that isn't even in final form yet.

[Joe Bernard]

It's a project - as I have already stated - that has had a long gestation period, some of it painful for the person behind it. I happen to think this is neither the time nor place to declare it YUCK. If you want to suggest improvements to the design, I presume "I wish the barrel were bigger" would be an improvement over YUCK. Give it a whirl.

[Mark in Beacon]

While it's kinda cool to have shifters that can function in several different positions on the bike, there will inevitably be compromises. With that ergonomic curve, I would tend to agree that the shape of the prototype is more suitable to bar end and thumby duties, and could look a little awkward and stubby and maybe slightly distracting on a down tube--sorta like an Ultegra bar end in that position might. And the blug post alluded to the fact that the dt slot was probably third of three in terms of optimum. Quote: It’ll work fine on the downtube and better (than ever, than original SILVER shifters) as a thumby or a bar-end shifter

I found the Silvers as bar ends a little long but fine; never tried them as thumbies. Also had no problem shifting ten speeds with them, back when I briefly tried a cassette with so many choices. 

I have a set of the Suntour XC's, they sure are nice. A worthy revival in this day and age. I think they might look groovy on the IRD stem shifter mount, too. My aesthetic ranking: 1st: Thumby. Tie/close second: bar end. Remains to be seen: stem. Last: down tube. Apologies for all the adverbs and qualifiers; trying to stay sensitive in the known to be highly sensitive shifter area.

As for Yuck, I turn to a higher authority :

Examples from the Web for yuckExpand

Contemporary Examples (Weirdly, all the examples are from  The Daily Beast 

• Taylor Swift saw Selena Gomez kissing Bieber backstage at an awards show, and made a very obvious “ yuck ” face.

  13 Celebrities Who Dissed Justin Bieber Kevin Fallon August 7, 2014 

• Moving on past the yuck factor, you may wonder whether drinking blood might cause some indigestion.

  ‘Dark Shadows’ Returns: A User’s Guide to Drinking Blood Kent Sepkowitz May 11, 2012 

• Just to add to the yuck factor, his wife worked in the same office.

  A Flood of Harassment Horror Stories After the Herman Cain Allegations Lauren Ashburn November 11, 2011 

There. I lined up three yucks in a row. According to Dictionary.com, It's an Americanism dating back to 1965-70; expressive word

My son turned eight two weeks ago and apparently, among other signs of maturing, this entails replacing "yucky" with "gross." Today out of nowhere he let me know that apparently in 6th grade you have to dissect frogs. He said he would not because "Number one, it's not nice to the frogs. And number two, it's gross." Only a month ago, that would have definitely been yucky. Hopefully he'll rediscover yuck, because it's a fun little word. Good for a few yuks.

[Bill Lindsay]

Marc said: "the shape of the prototype is more suitable to bar end and thumby duties, and could look a little awkward and stubby and maybe slightly distracting on a down tube"

I agree that based just on aesthetics, they'd be weird on the downtube.  I'm going to pre-emptively DISAPPROVE of anybody that runs Silver 2s on the downtube.  They might be awesome as stem shifters though.  Don't forget stem shifters!  :-)

[dougP]

Bear in mind these are prototypes only, probably to check all the fiddly details before going into production.  I would expect the finish to be up to the usual Rivendell standards & present well on a nice bike.  As to the aesthetic, well, if you liked the originals (which I do), these will look great to you.  If you dislike the old ones, you won't like these. There's certainly no shortage of choices in shift levers. 

As to 3 yucks in a row, wouldn't that be Larry, Moe & Curly?  ("Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk")

dougP

[Joe Bernard]

I've had the old Suntour Power Ratchet thumbies and they're fabulous. I think they would be great as inside-the-bar shifters like Riv specs on Clems.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

As a tenet of this group, we've always allowed members to express opinions. 

If someone genuinely dislikes all the RBW designs, this probably isn't the group for them, of course. But not everyone has to think everything is awesome.

Nothing anyone makes is going to work for everyone, and if someone doesn't care for the item, and takes the time to explain why, that aids the discussion and may certainly cause folks to consider different perspectives.  That's a tenet of this group. We've always been open to others opinion and value that which is based in actual experience. 

"Yuck (because)" is the equivalent of "Awesome (because)".

It's the "because" which makes this group helpful rather than noisy.

What is not appropriate are personal comments. It never comes across well in print and raises everyone's hackles. There is no place for it in this group. 

If you disagree with someone's statement, make your counter-case clearly with courtesy.  That's also a tenet of this group.

Ok... taking off the admin hat and getting back to work this AM...

Thanks for reading - and of course contributing to the discussion.

- Jim

[Joe Bernard]

I'm sorry, Jim. I know the Riv folks personally and have a reasonable idea of how precarious business is in today's 'Amazon economy', so I tend to take this type of thing personally. I'll try harder.

Joe Bernard
Novato CA.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

All is well here with the SS2 thing. We're not oblivious to double-digit speed cassettes and the 1xwhatevers, and aren't even dismissive of them. We can afford to address everything and we can't afford to do most of what we do that makes us good or special. Nothing we do makes sense financially, and at some point when I'm gone or RIV's gone and somebody sees an opportunity to write the story of our demise, they'll have tons of low-hanging fruit to pluck. MUSA, SACKVILLE, STEEL. THere are all kinds of external forces threatening us that we can't control. A huge rent raise in a few years? NITTO bars on Amazon at our cost? A young and irreplaceable workforce hoping to settle down in life and pressured to make more money in another field?
Those are everyday pressures, not always front-burner, but always not far from it, and so there's only so little I can fret about somebody double-after-the-facting saying we should do the SS2 this way or that.
The S1 groove diameter is 20.5. Campy NR was 16. Simplex Alfred E. Neumanns were 14. Dia-Compe makes an 11-speed that's 30, but it won't fit into a pod or thumb-mount, and it pulls a lot of cable way fast, which has its own drawbacks when you're shifting 9. The amount of lever-tip movement required to move the derailer X depends on the length of the lever. It's not obvious unless mentioning it forces you to thing of the physics, or until you mount one and try it, but it's there.
We experiment a lot with shifters, modifying one mount to fit another shifter, putting them different places, trying out with diff cassettes...and we do it as users-riders, not as marketers. The SS project started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, and has been tremendously successful. Not financially, but from the point of view that lots of riders have been given the chance to learn friction shifting, and if no SILVER, no chance. That's not important in the big picture, but to me, personally, it is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in an outward chest-thump way or a smug way, but in an inward way. Friction shifting (or, more accurately, shifting with a micro power-ratchet that is better than pure friction, but is so similar to it, and "friction" flows off the tongue better) isn't every going to come out of its flatlining and make a blip, but at some level below the visible blip, it's pretty fantastic. When you move the lever and pull the cable and make that not-guaranteed shift, in a tiny way you're resisting the powerful forces of modern times that tell you you're smarter when you remove skill and feel from the bike riding experience. You WILL miss some shifts and go KLUNK now and then. Your wingnut will loosen and you'll have to snug it. There's no "auto-snug" feature to do it for you, and so the bike fantastically nags at you and reminds you that you and it are dancing or interacting and are interdependent. That's not the force and direction that flies in the mainstream.
When SS2 comes out--March, if I can believe what I'm told—it won't be news in any bike magazine (maybe our never having written a press release isn't helping us). But on the other hand, can you imagine a 26-year old rookie former intern journalist getting a press release about that shifter and knowing what to do with it? Or getting a sample for test purposes?
We survive because of our current and repeat customers, and this forum has been key. For me, it's super important, because even when there's swatting and squawking, it's about stuff I can relate to and love, and it's among geeky bike riders (like I am!) who feel strongly about insignificant stuff (like I do!). Everybody here knows all of your names. Igor, Steve, Patrick, Joe, the Deacon, many more. We know your quirks and sensitivities. Yay to all!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Sentence 3 should be "..we CAN'T afford to do everything."

[Patrick Moore]

Grant said: "The SS project started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, and has been tremendously successful. Not financially, but from the point of view that lots of riders have been given the chance to learn friction shifting, and if no SILVER, no chance. That's not important in the big picture, but to me, personally, it is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in an outward chest-thump way or a smug way, but in an inward way."

That (in a general sense) is why Rivendell is worth keeping around -- so to speak. One gets so effing tired of hearing of "resource optimization" and "cost efficiencies" and "marketing focus strategies" and "product portfolio optimization". Puke, puke, puke. Make something because it's good and fun and useful!

When will we hear geom specs for the SS? Will it plane? Will it work with my AM hub? How fat a tire?

Patrick Moore, not going to buy a Roadini after all, but who knows about the SS, who still thinks the old Bar Con is the one to beat.

[Patrick Moore]

... Patrick Moore, who belatedly realized that "SS" means "Silver Shifter" and not "Single Speed".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5Vg

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****************************************************************************************

Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Doug H.]

I returned to biking as a young adult and could not understand why I didn't like it as much. I had a "high-end" road bike and the kit (lycra with pads in all the right places). I dreaded the long rides but was happy I made it when it was over. Then I read "Just Ride" by Grant and the light came on! Now I ride for fun or to get to work or to go to the library, etc. I wear the same clothes that I walk around in daily. Thanks to Riv and Grant to allowing me to see biking as I did as a kid. 

8, 9, 10, 11 speed shifting...when is enough, enough? I was a technology chaser for a time but now I just want to ride. Not to say there aren't good advancements but that the yearly next big thing is the phantom menace at times.

Doug

[LBleriot]

As a devout sub-10 speed DT friction shifter retro grouch, I hope Rivendell sells a ton of these thumb shifters and prospers, then takes some of the profit and "improves" the beautiful Silver shifters by making the groove diameter a little larger!
 

Now, I gotta go and buy up all the existing stock of Silver shifters.

[Jim Bronson]

I like all those things like "resource optimization" and "cost efficiencies" where they provide value to actual human beings, but I still ride Rivendells because the experience behind the handlebars is a sublime one.  I've had go-fast bikes but I keep coming back to my Rivendells because they are a joy to ride.  Maybe I haven't had the right go-fast bike but I haven't been on something else that says to me that it's the new-it-thing.  There isn't much better in life to me than cruising down the road on my Riv shod with fat slicks.   

I've ridden the cheaper copies of Rivendell or Rivendell-ish bikes like Soma and Surly, et al., they're not the same.  I'm sure they are fine people in their own right but the optimization on cost is to the detriment of the cycling experience, IMO.

I don't know about all these retro-grouch concepts and I don't care.  I don't like friction shifters and I will never run them (well ok my Clem H has them but I am plotting their demise).  But by the same token I applaud Rivendell for trying something different.  If people will buy it then great for them.  I won't, but still, I'm sure I'll buy some other stuff that does meet my ideas of cycling utility and frugality.

Ok, that's enough thinking about the existential themes of Rivendell for me today.

-Jim

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[Tim Butterfield]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 12:07 PM, LBleriot <gary....@att.net> wrote:

... then takes some of the profit and "improves" the beautiful Silver shifters by making the groove diameter a little larger!

I wonder if this would work if, instead of having a one piece handle and cylinder/groove, the groove is on a separate piece that is fit to the handle.  That groove piece could then have different groove diameters to change shift ratios.  Just like you can buy only the stop washers now, you could buy the desired groove size if not standard.

Tim

[Garth]

You mean like the original Sun Tour Thumbshifters have a larger diameter internal ratchet mechanism ? 

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 3:07:01 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:

 the groove diameter a little larger!
 

[Patrick Moore]

"...where they provide value ..." Yes, but:

What these terms and others of the ilk mean in the context of the resumes I write is: make everything as cheap as possible in order to give the C-levels bigger bonuses; and I'm serious. Big companies make things in order to get money, not to make a good product or to provide a good service; or at least, good products and services are incidental to their activities and provided only as a means to profit, and profits are for the sake of bonuses.

I'm not saying every top manager is a knave; and I'm not saying at all that every top manager and every company does this; but the system in general is as I describe, and I kid you not. Lower level managers accomplish what top level managers aim at.

Companies that make things for real reasons, especially if those reasons have to do with love of the product, are to be cherished.

[dougP]

There are many wonderful things about this forum.  I've met some fascinating characters & learned all kinds of stuff I would never encounter elsewhere.  Just today, I learned about barrel diameters of shifters, for instance.  I really enjoy the occasional posts from Grant about Rivendell.  He gives us a glimpse into the inner workings & trials of how a small, niche enterprise works, something most of us would never understand otherwise.  Rivendell is real people making cool stuff for other real people. 

At The Big Bike Co (TM), I can imagine the dozen members of the product development committee sitting around a walnut conference table, with their laptops open to spreadsheets, all discussing in reverent tones, the pros & cons of their secret project which marketing assures them will give them an extra 2 points of market share, as long as production can bring it in on budget, which will only happen if engineering really performs, etc., etc.  At the head of the table is a chubby guy (and it will be a guy) with a ruddy face, wearing a white shirt with cuff links (never trust a man wearing cuff links), who represents whatever faceless group actually owns the company.  His only question:  How much money will it make?  Does it move the needle on the financials? 

That bloodless, dispassionate scene repeats itself throughout the corporate world, regardless of the product or industry.  I am thankful for organizations like Rivendell, run by real people who make stuff they like in order to serve a market of like minded people.  People with a passion for their product and their customers. 

Time to get off the soapbox & buy a pair of new shifters.

doug peterson

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 1:19:28 PM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

I like all those things like "resource optimization" and "cost efficiencies" where they provide value to actual human beings, but I still ride Rivendells because the experience behind the handlebars is a sublime one.  I've had go-fast bikes but I keep coming back to my Rivendells because they are a joy to ride.  Maybe I haven't had the right go-fast bike but I haven't been on something else that says to me that it's the new-it-thing.  There isn't much better in life to me than cruising down the road on my Riv shod with fat slicks.   

I've ridden the cheaper copies of Rivendell or Rivendell-ish bikes like Soma and Surly, et al., they're not the same.  I'm sure they are fine people in their own right but the optimization on cost is to the detriment of the cycling experience, IMO.

I don't know about all these retro-grouch concepts and I don't care.  I don't like friction shifters and I will never run them (well ok my Clem H has them but I am plotting their demise).  But by the same token I applaud Rivendell for trying something different.  If people will buy it then great for them.  I won't, but still, I'm sure I'll buy some other stuff that does meet my ideas of cycling utility and frugality.

Ok, that's enough thinking about the existential themes of Rivendell for me today.

-Jim

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Grant said: "The SS project started out a dumb lark in the early 2000s, and has been tremendously successful. Not financially, but from the point of view that lots of riders have been given the chance to learn friction shifting, and if no SILVER, no chance. That's not important in the big picture, but to me, personally, it is huge. I'm really proud of it, not in an outward chest-thump way or a smug way, but in an inward way."

That (in a general sense) is why Rivendell is worth keeping around -- so to speak. One gets so effing tired of hearing of "resource optimization" and "cost efficiencies" and "marketing focus strategies" and "product portfolio optimization". Puke, puke, puke. Make something because it's good and fun and useful!

When will we hear geom specs for the SS? Will it plane? Will it work with my AM hub? How fat a tire?

Patrick Moore, not going to buy a Roadini after all, but who knows about the SS, who still thinks the old Bar Con is the one to beat.

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[Patrick Moore]

One last remark on this: Proof of this: Milton Friedman is taken seriously.

"There is one and only one social responsibility of business – to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception or fraud."

[Grant Petersen]

Note to non-deacon Patrick about the singlespeeder:

Name:  Frank Jones Sr.

Not for: 26-inch wheels! ha.

Upslope: 3-deg

New lug seat tube super boss

Custom lugs on head tube (the combo is unique, looks great)

Fillet BB b/c the downtube is 28.6

Color: Homer blue

Rear dropout: Made it just for this bike. Wacky long rear entry two-eyes hooded kind, looks l ike an alligator, soaks up 8t chainring diff

Midfork braze-ons, as I recall. We'll get a sample soon. I could look it up...I suppose

Sizes: You should get a 59, but would probably want a 57. ha

Name trivia: It was made for Blue Lug. I asked 'em if they had any name in mind, or any style of name. Said no. I presented 5 names, four of which were clever variants of ONE or SINGLE (Solouno...etc) plus the insane wild card  super American sounding Frank Jones SR.  That's what they picked, and I like it!

120 spacing

rackmounts

brake reach 59, which allows 38mm tire (a BL requirement)

recommended brakes: the 559 sidepull, paul or compass cp, or the soon to be reissued Dia-Compe 610 centerpull (with a max reach of 610mm)

I'm getting a 59 for my short bursty sprints on the way to and from work, with Albastache bars and 'Browns.

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[Eric Norris]

Campagnolo did something similar with the first version of their indexed shifting. It was a disaster. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to stock all of those small parts—hard enough to get shops to sell friction levers!

Another idea—also probably not viable—would be for Grant/Someone to buy up all the used SunTour Microshift levers, refurbish and polish them, and re-sell at a profit. I love those levers.

--Eric N

Twitter/Instagram/YouTube: @CampyOnlyGuy

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[Joe Bernard]

Eric: Suntour Microshift?

[Adam Kilgas]

From the drawing, the Frank Jones SR reminds me of a single-speed Sam Hillborne with a 28.6 downtube... In fact, isn't that the same top tube as on a Sam?

...I like it!

[Eric Norris]

Yeah, the levers with the ratchets inside. Did I get the name wrong?

–Eric N

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:38 PM, Adam Kilgas <adam.rach...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From the drawing, the Frank Jones SR reminds me of a single-speed Sam Hillborne with a 28.6 downtube... In fact, isn't that the same top tube as on a Sam?
>
> ...I like it!
>

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[Patrick Moore]

That's what I had in mind. Thanks.

Non-diaconal-Patrick, who damn' well won't buy a 59, in ABQ, NM.

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[Grant Petersen]

Note to non-deacon Patrick: Your size is a mixte!

[Joe Bernard]

Ooh, a singlespeed (the other SS) mixte. My mixte (Cheviot) is going to be a Will-style 2-speed, so of course non-deacon Patrick is going to one up me with a fixie. Balderdash!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Groove diameter.
Years ago Shimano did an uncharacteristicall unShimano-like thing -- or maybe it was SunTour, but I think Shimano-- when it included with some shifters a clip-on groove enhancement technobit---a waifey sliver of flexible plastic that snapped into the groove and made it bigger, maybe to make the shifter reach an 8sp from the original 6 or 7. Somebody here will remember. Anyway, it's unlikely we'd be able to make that happen as easily.
Simplex riders in the '80s used to slide a tubular cable end cap over the part of the cable that engaged the final portion of the wrap when shifting to the lower gears. There might be ways that don't involve mold changes.
The 20.5 works up to 10. If we go bigger, it favors 11 at the cost of easier shifting the normal range of 789. I don't consider 7 "normal" anymore, but 8 is still half there and 9 is normal here, and I don't want a super sensitive shifter that'll require a new bar-end pod and also won't fit thumbpods. That's key.
If we were rich or the only source of shifters, or had a major lock on effective shifters, I'd feel more stress over this, but 20.5 works well, and ENE has a 30, and I dunno if that's OVERkill...and anyway, the worst that'll happen here is we'll get a new good thumb shifter that works equally well as a bar-ender and downtuber, even if it looks unTrad as one of those.

Final thought for now: If you HAVE an 11sp, you could just adjust the der so it didn't get the small cog. Then shifter over the ten remaining. I think it'll do that--I have it on my Cheviot, a ten. Or is it 9? I'll check today, but it's a 40, and it works fine, and the 11t cog on a multimulti speed cassette is not that useful anyway unless you're ridng a 32t big ring, and that's a whole other thing there.

Notice the diversion attempt attachment.

[Patrick Moore]

Mixte fixie.

If I do anything, I probably will get someone to respace the 2003 Curt bike to 120-125 mm OL to accommodate that AM hub; the hub is spaced at 114, but the axle is long enough to take 5 mm of spacers on each end; though will have to adjust shifting adjustment accordingly. We'll see. Will first have to send hub to Aaron's Bicycle Repair to get it checked out. I'll probably end up thinking about it all for another year.

[Peter Adler]

610mm = 61cm = 24" and change. You mean 61mm, yes?

Peter Adler

who bought a set of those @100mm cruiser Tektro DP sidepulls at a warehouse sale a few years back, decided that the mechanical advantage made them unusable for stopping bikes, and cannibalized the nutted bolts to convert the Allen-wrench 559s bought at the previous year's sale

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Grant Petersen]

No, I meant 610mm. World records.

--

[Joe Bernard]

Fat tires, fat bikes, I bring you...fat brakes!

[Ray Varella]

No one has mentioned the diversion attachment,
Grant, is that the illegitimate love child of a truss frame and double top tube frame?
Now the PETA folks will be after us to spay and neuter our bikes, the shelters are full.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[Grant Petersen]

No, it's a prototype, something we'll be trying out and maybe do to a biggish roadish frame next year. I'm surprised nobody's said anything. It's fne, though!

[Joe Bernard]

Not only did I not say anything, but I was at Riv today and forgot to look for it. Dangit!

[Ray Varella]

I suspect no one has said anything because there wasn’t a spy photo on the BLUG to create the typical buzz here at the cyber-water cooler

[Kainalu V.]

Classy fillets. Biggish road frame means not being huge? 1 size fits all kinda large folks? A 68 roadini would fly off the shelves!
-Kai
BK NY

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Tall, lugged, roadish frame with the filleted and curved bubbe tube? Consider me diverted...

I’ll admit I was even more excited thinking for a moment that this could be a one off/small batch tall mans Senor Frank Jones but the down tube cable stops said otherwise. You still have my attention, nonetheless!

[Patrick Moore]

Returning to the subject: One of the best fitting bikes I owned was a 1958 Herse with a 56 or 56 1/2 cm tt and a 60 cm st, that measurement being c-c. And long ago, 1989 or 1990, I got measured at REI for a bike by one of their pros (pro fitter, pro rider -- he was on their racing team) and he recommended a REI model in a 60. My problem with more-than-57 or 58 (c-c) sts on many frames is that with larger frames the tt is too long if I want my bar in a certain relationship to the saddle.

But that Herse -- what a nice fit. Too bad it didn't handle or carry loads as I wanted.

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 4:31 PM, Grant Petersen <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Belopsky]

I'm impatiently waiting for the Frank Jones. If one of the smaller sizes fits me, I'm buying.

[Belopsky]

I'd love to see a geometry of the smaller sizes

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[Bill Lindsay]

The BLUG today documents a method to get slightly
more cable pull out of a Silver shifter.

BL

[lum gim fong]

Rivendell Shark bike.

[LBleriot]

Hey, my kvetching about cable pull on Silver Shifters resulted in a BLUG hack!  How cool is that?

[Bill Eberle in Columbus, Ohio]

Well the folks at RBW are known to always go the extra mile.

[masmojo]

Entirely too late to make any real difference, but a couple ideas I had while reading this thread. First, a cam shape would help with lever throw issues. (Even though it would complicate the design/engineering exponentially & probably make it not cost effective)
Second, maybe a segmented lever that is long enough for down tube use, but easily hacked off for thumby use!? Personally, I'm fine with the shorter lever and I'll probably buy some as soon as they are available to replace my Sun Race clickers.