Another Riv Financial Situation Thread

[Steve Palincsar]

A few days ago over on the Paceline forum, in response to a recent Riv email about a slow holiday season they've restarted the "Riv Saved For Now" discussion.  https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=218496&page=4 starting at post no. 51

I'm a bit surprised there's been no discussion of the subject here. 

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Eric Norris]

Interesting how many of the people posting were so turned off they immediately unsubscribed.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

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[Eric]

I'm surprised to that a discussion hasn't started on this side of the pond. But hey, at least it's not another Paceline Rapha-related thread. 

There's some quite good insight regarding Riv on that Paceline thread, especially the earlier discussion pertaining to measures to shore up the business fundamentals.

I fully understand the "unsubscribe" though I actually went ahead and purchased something. Wishing them the best. 

[Bob B]

I find that thread to be VERY ignorant

Speaking rhetorically here, but if you don’t like upright bikes or seat lugs to look a certain way, that’s fine... it’s not for you. But these dudes are all inflamed about it and making super perfunctory demands about the way riv should run business or design bikes. Meanwhile, what have they made/contributed? Whatever...

Bob B
Brooklyn, NY

[Eric]

Bob, I appreciate your comment but one would be obtuse to forget that Riv crowdsouced appox $215 thousand dollars. I know for a fact that numerous of the members of Paceline (including myself) contributed.

 And how long ago was that? Less than a year? I totally understand why some fans of Riv would be soured to be hit up again. 

[Matt Beecher]

I still believe that Rivendell is a great store and I appreciate the bikes they offered and the push they made for "un-racers", so I placed an order for some items I had been thinking about.  I own six Rivs and most were bought used because I could not afford the model when they were still being made.

When I could finally afford a high-end bike, the Atlantis was the bike I was going to buy.  There were no other options to consider.  The Atlantis was the first bike I saw and thought "Wow!"  Thankfully, it was the one I wanted the most and it was produced long enough for me to finally get one.    

When they offered the MIT Atlantis, I bought one of those too, to be a bit more careless with and because it offered me the ruggedness of the Atlantis with 650B wheels in my size.  I admit that I was a bit hesitant of this one at first, but I am extremely happy with it.  It is 90% as attractive and considerably cheaper.  I wish it was available 15 years ago...assuming 650b tires were available too.  (Thanks for that push Grant!)

I hope the company works out.  I don't agree with everything Grant sells, but I appreciate it as a whole.  

Cheers,

Matt B.

Oswego, IL 

[Bob B]

That’s cool but I wasn’t talking about monetary contributions. I was just annoyed by some of the more inflammatory anonymous commenters and the general trajectory of the thread.

Bob B
Brooklyn, NY

[Drw]

Man. I am torn. I’ve probably spent more money at Rivendell than any other single business (besides maybe the grocery store) in the last 5 years. I bought a bunch of gift certificates those months ago when things seemed dire (despite being pretty broke).

I wish they’d hire a business consultant or a firm or something....take some proactive steps to shore up the business. I’d rather have a slightly pared down/watered down riv than none at all.

[Jonathan D.]

I just checked the list before I purchased a gift certificate. The value I get just out of the newsletter and blahg is worth a lot. I hope Riv is able to do what it takes to keep going and continue to provide unique and great products with an amazing team and community. Thank you to everyone at Rivendell and Rivelo and Happy New Year to you all.

[John A. Bennett]

I don't believe ANYONE posting on the Paceline forum regarding Rivendell has any kind of real understanding about how much money it costs to run a company like Rivendell.

What other bike COMPANY (yes, it's a company, NOT a shop) with only 10 or 11 multi-hat wearing employees produces as much of their own stuff? Bikes, frames, components, clothing, lugs, bags, specialty racks, soap...C'mon, the list is endless. 

All of those items require multiple prototypes (which ---"surprise, surprise'" --the makers-suppliers do not provide for free); new tooling; materials; manufacturing; safety testing.....All of that costs LOTS of money. 

And the Rivendell mark-up is MINIMAL to keep all of these cool items as affordable as possible. Sure, they still "cost," but if they were marked up the way Made in Bangladesh Name Brand Designer Duds were, well, they'd be 10 times as much. Maybe 20X!

Year round and especially during the holidays, I get tons of emails and catalogs from companies pushing their merchandise at 50% off. Rivendell can't afford to do that. They'd be losing money, big time. 

How can other places sell their stuff at 50% off and still thrive? Yep, they pay very little for their Made In Who Knows Where merchandise. 

So, Grant asking people to consider buying a $20 gift certificate after a slow month seems pretty harmless to me. 

And the guy on the Paceline forum who thinks December is a big month for the bike business has obviously never worked in the bicycle industry. It's a terrible month.

People don't buy bikes as gifts, and most regular customers are busy spending their disposable income on their friends and family and kids....NOT on bikes and bike parts for themselves. 

I remember when Rivendell used to have paid memberships. $15 a year. It was a great way to make a small contribution in exchange for the tangible and intangible things Rivendell did, and to be a part of it all.

These days, I'm seeing more and more blogs and sites charging to view their content. Riv doesn't do that. It's free. Heck, I'd pay $15 a year ---or more!--- JUST to read Grant's Blahg. 

Happy New Year to everyone who digs Rivendell and keeps 'em going! 

John 

Rivelo, LLC (Where we're proud & happy to be selling the best bikes in the world)

Portland, Ore.

[William!]

Amen.

[Justin, Oakland]

I think the biggest thing that the Paceline folks miss is that you’d have to find a business advisor skilled in managing niche brands. The average bear would come in and get rid of the the things that make Rivendell different from many other companies. The idiosyncrasies appear to be problematic from someone who wants a hyper-normalized company or believes hyper-normalization is the best way to succeed in the market. A niche brand can exist with its idiosyncrasies and SHOULD exist. It’s just harder when you decide to do things based on a vision and opinion rather than a regression analysis of a market based solely on profit uber alles.

-J

[rob markwardt]

Another thing they are missing is that Rivendell has been an ongoing small business employing many for the past 25 years. The requests for “help” have also been going on for the past 25 years. It’s how they do businesses. People act like grant is completely clueless about running a business....he’s still going...I think he has a clue!

[Mark Schneider]

I was happy to purchase a gift card (for myself)after I read Grant's post. I'm just delighted a bike company that I can relate to exists in this superficial over consumptive society. I have a couple of Riv's, and once I thin out my heard of 19, I'll try one of the long chain-stay models, the fact that Grant bucks the trend with the opposite of what the rest of the echo chamber screams is why I'm here.

Happy New Year, all!

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 2:13:01 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[Jim M.]

On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 10:01:34 AM UTC-8, rob markwardt wrote:

Another thing they are missing is that Rivendell has been an ongoing small business employing many for the past 25 years.   

Yes, there have been a lot of come-and-gones (Kogswell) in that time, many which have generated ill will (e.g.,Rawland).

Speaking of which, isn't it about time to start organizing a 25th Anniversary Party?

jim m

walnut creek, ca

[Philip Williamson]

It is 100% time to get that 25 year Riv party rolling.
I remember when “Ever Since 1994” was a joke!

I usually get my Riv kit in my Christmas stocking, but not this year, for some reason.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Doug H.]

I find it refreshing that Rivendell is open and honest about their financial situation. I genuinely like the company and will continue to support as I am able to.
Doug

[Gary]

I really appreciate and respect everything about Riv and Grant's ability to push the boundaries of "normal" bikes and parts, and have introduced many folks to them who are glad to now be part of the "club." So I'm happy to buy a few gift certificates when Grant throws out a request - I'd much rather hear from him early rather than have him/riv hold things close and not give folks a chance to help before it might be too late (which I hope never happens!).  A company like Riv is so rare theses days - integrity, supreme customer service, innovative not-made-in-china products that are hard if not impossible to find anywhere else, and a just plain fun vibe.  I'm with John B, I'd be happy to pay the old membership fee from long ago again just to have access to their thinking!

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

It’s like a gut punch to think of Rivendell shutting its doors. I am always fearful of losing my bike to theft or an accident, but I did take comfort that I could replace it with another Rivendell mixte if the worst happened. I pictured purchasing my sons bikes to fit them as teens/young adults. There isn’t any other company that would do; the bikes, the bags, the Blug, the gear....I don’t ever want to say goodbye. I’ll go find some things to buy. Seems a small price to pay for the existence of RBW.

[DadDadDaddio]

I'm not a Riv lifer ... I bought my Clem L a year ago ... so take this for whatever its worth.

I was attracted to Riv by the design and packaging of my Clem. I was looking for a well-built, simple bike with a steel frame that I could use for commuting and light trail use. I absolutely love my bike and for a few weeks after purchase, I even found myself enjoying the RBW culture/Koolaid. 

However, as a relatively new customer, I find their latest disclosure alarming. I don't typically buy from companies that might not be around to offer product support. If last year's appeal would have come out before I bought my Clem, I absolutely would have gone elsewhere for a bike. Public whining about cash flow is unprofessional and not very smart.

[Garth]

   I'm perfectly happy riding with what some may call "old" stuff.  Old .... just how "old" is the present -at-hand anyways ? No joke. I like that at least smeone else likes "old" stuff at-hand also. The present-at-hand has never worn out and never will.  Just because there is other stuff called "new" doesn't and cannot alter working stuff from working.  So in regards to businesses selling "old technology" , all I can say is why not ?  I also like "old designs" of clothing, stuff that fits loose and relaxed and supple fabrics that feel pleasant next to the skin. I love high rise pleated pants with tapered cuffs. The current trend of minimalizing/slimming/tapering I have no taste for.  The same with bike stuff, I have no taste for the latest stuff. Is there a market for "old" stuff ?  Of course there is.  Take a look at places that sell "used" stuff, or redesigned/reissued/recreated stuff at-hand. What difference does it make to me when or where or how the stuff I prefer "came to be", it's his-story ?  None of course. There's no time like present, literally and absolutely !  

   As for so called "experts on success", hah hah .... neither .  

[Paul Richardson]

i too think paying $20 for a gift certificate after a slow month is a small ask.  in addition to enjoying the blahg, the film photos, the koolaid, i'm also glad to know that when i do need a part or a goop or an odd or an end or even something to read, riv probably has it and it's probably one worth buying.  they can hold my twenty bucks until it's time to make a purchase.

paul

takoma park md.

[M G]

I’m a Riv owner since the early 00s, and currently have a custom painted Glorious and a HHH tandem, both bought from Riv.  And i sold my Saluki, #1 it might have been, which i bought from the list  around 2006.    

Here are my thoughts re what from the exterior seems the wrong way to get the Riv customer support message  across.  

I was in the same boat as Grant P & Riv...I had a quirky company with considerably different  product type from the norm in a small mostly homogeneous industry.  I had similar fears to Grant  and the same wet blankets of communication doom (until i learned to redirect).

The best thing i did for my company, staff, and clients [which was acquired in 2001]  was learning how to ameliorate those fears.  At our peak, i had 40 staff, sales agents throughout the world, slim margins, and lots of nights waking up and thinking, ‘tomorrow is the last day’.   And then i realized - with help - how wrong wrong wrong that was.  That we had a completely loyal customer base; that while we didn’t have a lot of capital in currency, we had huge intellectual capital; that we had an order backlog, even if i didn’t see it in our ‘booked orders’; that we were an amazing staff who believed in our product and mission, and when there were downturns, we could all pull together, including financially if need be (and a few times it WAS needed]; that if i refocused my irrational fears i would have a lot more energy and will to push things hard where they needed pushing.  As a high school and college drop out, i didn’t have the ‘business courses’, ‘financial backgrounds’ etc, to fully understand how to use credit, how to use accounting and accruals, depreciation, write downs, how to negotiate so that my factories were in my corner and supporting me financially as their halo ‘private label / designed’ line; so many ways to make incremental change, all of which add up to a massive flip in cash flow and profit, real profit.  But bigger than the lack of business education was the gloomy worldview which saturated everything, so of course cash flow...the most stressful piece = the worst parts of that stress and gloom being put forth.  I learned to make friends with that stress, to turn it around; the biggest piece is internal.

I’m a few years younger than Grant (i’m 56 now) and i had these conversations with a few people at Riv 10 years back [and also briefly Grant] when there were similar emails going out.   Grant is a lot of things i am/ was not - he’s truly singular (i was synthetic, ie i constructed my singularity); he’s a great writer, with a lot of insight into human behavior and luxury goods (which these bikes, most bikes are).  Riv has a FANATIC following, not just this email list (and how many people just read it VS post regularly, or like me USED to but then chose to put our efforts elsewhere in the world); the ‘marketing’ of Riv is the f*cking best of any i’ve seen out there, because it is so true (PS - since my company was acquired in 2001, i’ve spent the last 17 years as an enormous fee’d marketing consultant - just for fun) / all of the Grant / Riv capital can be turned around, but like the old joke goes - ‘the lightbulb has to want to change’.  Not ‘victim blaming’ here, but Riv is not a victim, and it is hard to recognize how to get through this invisible passage.  How to even FIND where the threshold is. But the first part  is desire, and not the comfortable feeling of gloom.  There is a lot of unrecognized satisfaction in eking things along. Riv will continue to go along as it has, OR the fish at the head can learn to leap different.

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 5:13:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

[Ryan M.]

Those people on that forum don't seem like the target market for a company that pushes an Unracer philosophy...I don't think they really get Rivendell as a company. The gift certificate stuff has been going on since I've known about Rivendell; it's nothing really new. I take issue with the thought that Rivendell is missing out on the current "gravel" trend. Riv has never been into racing or competition or "suffering" and that is exactly what the gravel trend has become. Rivs are for the people who want to ride everywhere, comfortably, carrying stuff that they need.

I do think Riv is missing the ball with keeping rim brakes on the new Gus Wilson, which is supposed to be a mtb/trail bike. It's really going to hamper rim availability; there are a ton of really good disc specific rims available, and I can see no reason to stick with rim braking in 2019. That type of braking is not only dead on trail bikes, but the bones have decayed to dust by now. But, that is just me digressing.

[Patrick Moore]

Years ago -- about Year 5 or 7 Anno Rivendellii -- Grant famously remarked, "We are product driven, not market driven" by which he meant (I am sure) that the company's purpose is to sell neat and good (= interesting and useful) things. Justin is right; on the conventional business model you'd kick out all the low demand products and sell what most of the market wants; which of course would be death to Rivendell since, in that case, your only competitive advantages would be price or false image.

There is less in the Rivendell product line now that interests me, compared to 15 or 20 years ago -- part of that is simply that, with age, you accumulate most of what you need or want -- but I still very much want Rivendell to succeed, if only because one day I'll probably want a Clem.

I wonder if Riv might not introduce some budget lines of bags, for example: $150 instead of $250; I know Grant is a purist on quality, but that also means that cost cutting for Rivendell still might give products better than the competition, and US made, too.

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 10:00 AM Justin, Oakland <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  The average bear would come in and get rid of the the things that make Rivendell different from many other companies. The idiosyncrasies appear to be problematic from someone who wants a hyper-normalized company or believes hyper-normalization is the best way to succeed in the market. A niche brand can exist with its idiosyncrasies and SHOULD exist. ...

[Patrick Moore]

I'm in. 

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019 at 12:04 PM Jim M. <math...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Patrick Moore]

Originally, RIv's product line was in good part NOS old stuff -- Dia Compe single pivots, friction dt shifters, Valentino front derailleurs, and so on; I was part of the market, which was at least in good part defined by the "it's been proven and it's good enough, why mess with it" value. 

I rather wish they still sourced old Superbe Pro and Royal Grande Comp and original XT stuff, but I realize that a "real" business can't survive on that.

On Wed, Jan 2, 2019 at 6:41 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

   I'm perfectly happy riding with what some may call "old" stuff.  Old .... just how "old" is the present -at-hand anyways ? No joke. I like that at least smeone else likes "old" stuff at-hand also. The present-at-hand has never worn out and never will.  Just because there is other stuff called "new" doesn't and cannot alter working stuff from working.  So in regards to businesses selling "old technology" , all I can say is why not ?  I also like "old designs" of clothing, stuff that fits loose and relaxed and supple fabrics that feel pleasant next to the skin. I love high rise pleated pants with tapered cuffs. The current trend of minimalizing/slimming/tapering I have no taste for.  The same with bike stuff, I have no taste for the latest stuff. Is there a market for "old" stuff ?  Of course there is.  Take a look at places that sell "used" stuff, or redesigned/reissued/recreated stuff at-hand. What difference does it make to me when or where or how the stuff I prefer "came to be", it's his-story ?  None of course. There's no time like present, literally and absolutely !  

   As for so called "experts on success", hah hah .... neither .  

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Patrick Moore]

That is very interesting. What was your business?

And, as a marketing consultant who thinks Rivendell's marketing skill and model is a huge asset, what would you recommend to Rivendell for getting through the crunch (besides the positive attitude)?

--

[bfd...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 7:24:05 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

There is less in the Rivendell product line now that interests me, compared to 15 or 20 years ago -- part of that is simply that, with age, you accumulate most of what you need or want -- but I still very much want Rivendell to succeed

Years ago one thing that made Rivendell really interesting was they bought up a lot of the NOS parts that the market was moving away from - anything Suntour, 110/74 triple cranks, single pivot brakes, friction shifters and stuff like that. I bought stuff from Riv then because I still liked those parts. However, 20 years later and those parts are mainly gone.

Note - check out Mike Kone of Boulder Bicycles for NOS/Vintage Campy, Shimano and other stuff as he still seems to be able to source it!

So now Grant is left with trying to recreate or develop similar parts.That cost money which apparently he doesn't have, so the need for fundraising. On the Paceline thread, someone suggested he look into getting a line of credit (LOC). Assuming he qualifies, that might be a good way to go without making announcements that make it appear that he's desperate.

But like others have said, Grant has been in business for 25 years. It hasn't always been smooth sailings, but he's a survivor and will do what has worked for him! Good Luck!

[Wayne Naha]

I will gladly buy a Rivendell gift certificate now, and spend it later, if that's what they need.  Rivendell is a quirky company, that has quirky needs and quirky customers like me.  It breaks my heart to think of Rivendell closing their doors for good.  I probably would not be bicycling today if I had not encountered Grant Petersen and his 'just ride' philosophy.  He validated my own ideas regarding bicycling and bicycles, and gave me the confidence to act on them.  I have been a long time customer of Riv and will remain so, because Riv and Grant project a vision that I support, not just regarding all things bicycles, but in a larger sense as well.

It is a bitter pill that most folks in our consumer society are not concerned with the values a company supports, but only the cost of the goods.  It is, perhaps, just a hard fact that most folks inclined to 'just ride' bikes with flat pedals and upright bars are going to do it on sub-$500.00 bikes.  I know my wife blanched at the cost of my Clem, and said that was more money than she had ever thought a (not-racing) bike could cost.  That's a tough attitude to overcome.  An appreciation of the quality and versatility of my Clem, or any well made bicycle really, is simply absent among the folks with whom I am acquainted.

So it's a tough sell, and Riv will hang by a thread, as they have do.  I will hang with them.

On Monday

[Jim M.]

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:22:30 AM UTC-8, DadDadDaddio wrote:

I'm not a Riv lifer ... I bought my Clem L a year ago ... so take this for whatever its worth.

Welcome to the club/cult/gaggle/pod...

Grant has been making occasional requests for liquidity help since their first year in business. Riv has been around for 25 years. 70% of small businesses fail by year 10. That says to me that their strategy has been smart enough.

[bfd...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 10:47:38 AM UTC-8, Wayne Naha wrote:

  I know my wife blanched at the cost of my Clem, and said that was more money than she had ever thought a (not-racing) bike could cost.  That's a tough attitude to overcome. 

Yup, non-cyclists have no clue as to what a "good bike" will cost. My commuter is a used litespeed that I was able to put fenders and lights on. My litespeed is a mutt bike with Campy 9 drivetrain (ergo levers, FD and RD).  One day, my boss, who doesn't ride, saw it and she said "I bet you paid $500 for that!"  I'm like pret-ty close....

So to get the most out of your bike and to show her that it was "worth it," ride the heck out of the bike and enjoy it! When the bike is 10-15+ years old and has tens of thousands of miles on it, she will see you got your monies worth!

Good Luck!  

On Monday

[Hugh Smitham]

Well here we are again. I was in on the last buy a certificate and never used it. I'm in a place where I don't really need anything from Riv these days unless they chose to produce a Saluki that takes 48mm tires plus fenders and comes with center pulls. 

In regards to the notion of Riv closing up shop I say that would be a bleak day and one I for my small part will help to stave off. Though I don't personally ride a riv these days I can't express how much Grant and company have given me. It truly is priceless. I currently          support two YouTube channels that I value so what's a little bit more to keep the good guy's rolling into the future.

Hugh

[M G]

Hi Patrick - my business  was not dissimilar to Riv - was in non-essential / luxury consumer materials for interior design use; one of the first 'green materials' companies in that niche.

I had / am suggesting less a positive attitude, though that's a way to put it (and i'm gloomy like Grant, so that's even a hard word for me) - than a neutral realistic one, not that the sky is falling, but that it is NOT a crunch; not to use credit or borrowing or consumer requests blindly, but to give it an upside, to use them as tools.  The financial tools available, for parsing one's actual inventory value and projections etc, are now so much greater on a year over year basis; the granularity of it is astounding; one doesn't need a passel of MBAs and excel anymore. I think that Riv has been well on track with their 'presale pricing' eg, 'this will sell for X when landed, pre-sale price is .8X' as they did with several frames and models in recent years. I'm speculating, because of course i've never seen a balance sheet, though i've [idly] done the numbers when they report their sales of Y amount of frames, Clems, etc / plus seeing the personnel roster. And i'm sure there are factors unseen: investors, leveraged houses and so on. BUT - all that exists with every business.  What doesn't exist with every business is the incredible and singular product of Riv; the zealous customer loyalty of Riv; and most importantly, the depth of knowledge and market understanding at the top of the company [which i believe is being shared and taught within the staff, so that is likewise excellent].  BUT - some of that excellence is being squandered with fearfulness, and i can only project my own similar experiences before i had my sea change; and likewise, the experiences of people who have called me in when they are holding their heads in their hands [some i have said: yes, you're right, wrap this up; but most i have said, it's not as dire as you believe, here's how to steer out; and NONE of them have the assets [i dont mean cash value] of Riv; but the huge intellectual capital and client love.  It has to start at the top though. With a deep breath / the world is not going to end the way we all project [but if i may quote a questionable source, it's gonna be when a madman named Albert Shanker gets his hands on a nuclear weapon] [cf Sleeper]

[Patrick Moore]

That's very interesting. I have written some top-level marketing executive resumes, and none of them have even remotely considered, afaik, this sort of capital; the very idea was, per all the data I got from them, entirely alien to their mindsets. But of course, for this sort of capital, you have to believe in something more than "success." 

And, after spouting onlist, I got around to reading Grant's recent post, and per that, thing's aren't as bad as the thread on that other list might have made things seem. He said, it's not a Hail Mary situation. So that's good. But I just placed an order anyway.

[Hugh Smitham]

I read it as well Patrick and it wasn't very gloomy.

My singular New Year's resolution was to be in one word generous. I feel it surprisingly covers a lot of bases.

Now to look for something from Riv. Perhaps something I can give someone...

[RichS]

Picking up on Jim M's. post about Riv's recurring need to generate quick cash, the early Rivendell Readers speak volumes about the often precarious financial state of the company. Remarkably frank and open, they read like a diary. Grant has also had to stave off lots of negative chatter over the years. So happy Rivendell has stayed the course.

My money's on Grant!

Best to all for a healthy and prosperous 2019

Rich in ATL

[M G]

Yeah, well the great ones perhaps have a different understanding of just what is capital. Because in the 70s, with the advent of spreadsheets and the enormous population increase in MBAs and bankers, everyone had to have this new thing, ‘a business plan’, because for funding or a bank loan for business, a startup or a new product line, one had to be fluent in this language, which at the time was relatively unused at this smaller - under $3 million level.  So suddenly - and of course it’s not unimportant - entrepreneurship, got taken over by corporate speak. Entrepreneurs are OF COURSE in love with gettin’ money, makin’ money and so on; but it is not a direct line from excel projections to ROI. Yet we thought it was important to gain the affect of trained seals, and that’s why now we only talk about capital and yield. It is possible to steer people towards understanding and unlocking their capital, and transforming it into cash. I had a few great mentors - one of whom was the advertising guy that the insane gnostic ad guy in the old TV show, ‘Thirtysomething’ was based on [and he was much more wild and wealthy in reality than on the TEEVEE], and another amazing mentor in an accountant from my old tough neighborhood, a real tough guy who went on to eventually run a giant foundation; BOTH of them suggested that the key to success in business was to be found through psychotherapy or psychoanalysis, and for sure every. single. client. of mine who went through the rigorous quick problem solving courses i’d indicated, came out well ahead [and i cast neither aspersions nor diagnoses in the direction of Rivendell & co]. Just my peculiar formula for how to turn businesses around. Improve the fish at the head.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

We "crowdsourced" store credits---not donations--- at a critical time for us, and if you contributed and haven't bought anything, your credit remains on the books. We've never asked for outright donations, and I wouldn't do that. Many businesses--from wholesalers like Trek, etc---and virtually all local bike shops--buy "on terms"--with 30 to 120 days to  pay for the inventory. This is how we buy small parts, but anything that comes from Japan, we pay in 1 week before we receive it, and anything from Taiwan--bikes, cranks--we pay 60 days before we receive it. This is not something we can negotiate. Tubing suppliers, painters, allthose guys have to be paid and don't offer payment terms to small guys like us.  In any case, it is a formula for horrible cash flow, which is our main angst.

When I say this stuff, it comes off as whining. I think everybody should do (1) restaurant work; and (2) own a small business...for the perspective.

Our customers are excellent. Our critics are relatively few. Our team is wonderful. I am not a crackerjack business manager, and that -- not our people, bikes, or intentions--will be what kills us. "Just hire a business manager" presumes things that aren't true.

If anybody would like to criticize or advise me directly, it's easy. (925) 933-7304 usually between 10:15 am and 4pm west time (I work mornings from home). Or email gr...@rivbike.com.

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 3:37:44 PM UTC-8, Eric wrote:

Bob, I appreciate your comment but one would be obtuse to forget that Riv crowdsouced appox $215 thousand dollars. I know for a fact that numerous of the members of Paceline (including myself) contributed.

 And how long ago was that? Less than a year? I totally understand why some fans of Riv would be soured to be hit up again. 

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Grant I have a BS in Finance and an MBA in Finance. I would not feel the least bit qualified to run your wonderful business. My kudos to you! (Owner of 6 Rivendells)
Chris

[dougP]

"I remember when “Ever Since 1994” was a joke! "

Now we could say "Producing fine bikes & accessories since the 20th century"

dougP

On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 11:25:58 AM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:

It is 100% time to get that 25 year Riv party rolling.
I remember when “Ever Since 1994” was a joke!

I usually get my Riv kit in my Christmas stocking, but not this year, for some reason.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Jim Salinas]

Rivendell has added to my quality of life in many ways. In a perfect world....they would prosper!

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I want to first thank everyone for discussing this with poise and sensitivity.

And a huge thanks to Grant for adding to the conversation. 

There's no question that the business landscape has changed. The long tail. Crowdsourcing. extreme-niche marketing. Pop ups. Food Trucks. 

Ok... maybe food trucks aren't actually in this picture, but I hadn't eaten yet...

Anyway.

I can't speak to those who took offense in other forums. But, it's always easier and simpler to hold a strong opinion about something in which you are not a stakeholder. 

I feel I'm a stakeholder in Rivendell. From the first columns in the Readers I read, Grant was painfully honest about the business. As someone running a specialty retail biz at the time, it was buoying to realize others had the same concerns and issues and late-night thoughts. Those words gained my trust even before I met Grant in person.  Over these 25 years, RBW has grown, refined, developed and continued. I'll continue to supporting this adventure as long as there's a horizon and the tiniest hint of a trail. 

This recent ask seemed pretty innocuous to me - just a positive reminder that a little help would be appreciated at a slow time of the year. Didn't seem like sirens.

Right  now I'm reading "This is Marketing" by Seth Godin. It's a worthy read for anyone trying to run a biz these days. Or more accurately, for anyone trying to seek Change. The idea of the smallest viable audience. More god stuff that I won't delve into here. Seth talks about the reality of today's business landscape and the need to have a real conversation with your customers, based on Trust. I've lost count of how many times I've thought - "wow. Grant's been doing that since day one."  

Nothing is perfect in this life. But we lace up each day and seek beauty. The fact that Rivendell has had permission to continue is a blessing.

Remember to ride.

- Jim

[Cyclofiend Jim]

uhhh... that was supposed to be "more _good_ stuff"..... sorry!

pesky oh-ses...

- J

[Patrick Moore]

I offered the gift certificate I bought to someone as a sort of casual, late Xmas gift, and he turned it down (gently). Damn! Now I'll have to find something else to buy.

[Alex from the North]

When I say this stuff, it comes off as whining. I think everybody should do (1) restaurant work; and (2) own a small business...for the perspective.

I own a restaurant and I have to say, we sell a lot of gift cards at the end of the year that end up as Christmas presents. It's absolutely something that helps us catch up the bills before the end of the year. There is absolutely nothing that Grant's done that's unusual, except to be exceptionally transparent. When I learned about Rivendell earlier this year I read through as many old Rivendell Readers as I could because I appreciated the openness with which Grant shared the travails of the business early on. As a business owner I'm fully aware of my own travails, but I don't often hear about those of other business owners. Being in this position can feel very isolating. I guess this comes off as whiny to some, but think this kind of transparency is useful.

[ascpgh]

"When I say this stuff, it comes off as whining. I think everybody should do (1) restaurant work; and (2) own a small business...for the perspective."

Grant, I read this as I walked into the hospital where I work and said a resounding "yes!"

As I precept students and orient new personnel I always ask if they've worked food service or retail because the operational model is extremely valuable. The insights native to those who've worked in a service industry do not form as well from a classroom lecture and are seldom the objective of any internship or project. 

My unofficial data collection results are that my role in preparing individuals for their career roles in patient care is easier and more successful when participants have had food service or retail employment. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Max S]

Read some of the thread on Paceline and - blechhh! I like many of the discussions there and have had overwhelmingly positive interactions with forumites on Paceline (since the Serotta forum days), much like here, but that series of business “advice” really put me off...

“Here, Grant, do all these things for the sake of mass appeal, which you’ve managed to avoid for 25 years. Ditch all that has delighted your core customers for all that time, and you’ll thereby solve all your problems!”

I bought a $100 certificate and look forward to redeeming it on a pile of soap and whatnots that one would never expect to source from a bike business but thanks to the quirky ways of Rivendell, one can.

- Max “Gus Boots in my future” in A2

[phil k]

Though I don't agree with equating whiny attribute to girls, I agree with the sentiment. I kind of saw it as Riv reminding us during holiday season that they have gift cards. Grant has always been candid and transparent about his business though he doesn't have to. He's honest, and I appreciate that honesty and know it will go into good bikes and good customer service. He could've easily window dressed it as something else, but their cash flow is very clearly limited by moving their flagship model to Taiwan. I think people forget, customers get a cheaper Atlantis/AHH. 

It's a shame to unsubscribe considering the emails are much more interesting than ones that used to flood my box from chainreaction or performance bikes.Sometimes it's like a small pdf zine.

-Phil in Arlington, VA

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 1:31:31 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

What's whiney is the number of keyboard warriors on that forum who lost their damn minds over the promotion of a $20 Gift Certificate. "I immediately unsubscribed from this email I pay nothing for because this company suggested I spend money on things they sell!" Yeah, you're not a "member" of anything and nobody asked for a donation, girls. Get a grip.

[Joe Bernard]

What I don't understand is the fascination with "fixing" a thing they have no interest in. They want Grant to make bikes like the ones they own, which, ya know, already exist. You can tell because they own them 🤔

[Tim Butterfield]

The big box stores, restaurants, and many other businesses sell gift cards all of the time.  There is even a rack of them at my grocery store.  When RBW sends an email mentioning selling gift certificates, suddenly it's the end of the world.  Maybe it's because they mentioned it in an email or because it's an eCard instead of plastic.  Either way, the response of many was a bit ridiculous.

Too bad they don't carry NFS.  I just had to order two bottles direct instead.  According to other reports, that might do better in the PNW than the more easily rinsed off T-9.  Guess I might need to find something different to order instead.

Cheers.

Tim

[Joe Bernard]

"Girls". Yeah, it was an off-the-cuff term probably best left in the earlier era from which I dredged it up. It sounded clever in my brain at that particular godawful time of night, but said brain didn't actually connect it to "whiney" in that moment. I apologise for being an idiot.

[Justin, Oakland]

Thank you for owning your mistake and apologizing for it.

-J

[Joe Bernard]

Mouthing off is my specialty, Justin, which is one reason I mostly beg off commenting here anymore. I've known the folks at Riv for ages - been following it from the beginning - and am emotionally invested in how they're doing. This shows in my writing style, and I've found that I regularly end up more upset than before I commented, plus in trouble with readers. It really isn't worth it.

[Joe Bernard]

Anyway, back to the topic. No more about That Damn Joe.

[Mark Anderson]

Touché and chapeau for apologizing. It ain’t easy.

[Mark Schneider]

Mark Schneider liked your email

[Brian Campbell]

The quickest and most meaningful solution is to buy stuff from Riv.

On Saturday, February 9, 2019 at 11:54:38 AM UTC-5, AV wrote:

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/2019-no-3-state-of-the-bunion

In the latest Blahg, Grant again discusses the financial situation. He lists several options for going forward, which I would summarize as: continue to try and squeak by, sell the business, give it to employees, or look for an angel investor. 

I'm sure people will tell me I'm wrong, but for what it's worth, I think at least some of Rivendell's financial problems stem from an awkward pricing scheme. 

On the high end is the AHH, which sells for around custom prices. I would guess that Riv loses some customers here, because why not buy a made to measure frame (eg, a Gunnar) instead? On the lower end, the $900 Clem or Roadini frames sit in a weird spot -- cheaper than a custom but more expensive than, say, a frame from Soma or Black Mountain. So why buy a Clem or Roadini, especially if you prefer classic geometry, as many people do? The lugs? Are lugs really worth losing sales over? Are lugs all that make Rivendell bikes special? And I have to agree that many of the latest designs have lost me.

I think it bears repeating that other companies are succeeding by making Rivendellish bikes for lower prices. For instance, isn't the Black Mountain Road essentially a TIG welded Rambouillet?  Why doesn't Riv offer a line of lower priced TIG frames? Who wouldn't want to buy a TIG version of, say, the Legolas or Quickbeam -- same geo, same tire clearances, same practical features such as rack and fender eyelets, but costing way less? Would it be watering down Riv too much to offer a TIG frame? I mean, the Roadini has only a few lugs. Why not go all the way and bring in new customers who appreciate the kinds of bikes Riv makes but could never afford an Atlantis or AHH? How is that bad? 

Some will object and say, those TIG bikes already exist, go and buy them. To which I respond: Not exactly. I'm pretty sure I would prefer a Grant designed TIG frame over a Surly. And I would rather support a smaller, ethical company like Riv, just as I would rather buy a jacket from Patagonia than Nike. 

I don’t mean to suggest that Grant should start chasing trends or introduce a carbon bike with disc brakes. But I do think there is a middle approach that could bring in more sales, expand the customer base, and yet stay true to the Rivendell philosophy. 

And the lugged bikes would still be there, as always. 

[Joe Bernard]

The MUSA AHH is gone, the Clem and Roadini are TIGed except for the seat lug. I'm not sure what Rivendell bike company you're giving product advice to, AV, but it's not the one currently operating in Walnut Creek.

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I was kinda hoping this thread had engaged in a quiet passing...