Handlebar Chronicles

[LeahFoy]

A terrible thing happened this vacation. I lent my Betty Foy, the bike I swore was perfect in every way possible, to a relative and rode my husband's 52 Clem. I swear I didn't mean to cheat, and it was only a few rides, but alas, I'm now feeling dissatisfied with my Albatross bars and have an unhealthy desire to have whatever those bars on the Clem are. It's so unexpected; as I said, it was just a few rides, but now my bars feel so LOW. They're maxed out as high as I can put them, so what else is there to do? I am leery of changing bars because there are all these SIZES and MEASUREMENTS and talk of the bars being closer to you and top tube length, blah blah. Not a language I speak. I only understand that those are comfortable bars and I want them on my bike, but I don't know which bars and if they will work, and it looks like a lot of work and expense to make the swap. I've thought I may call Riv and chat with them, but I always get starstruck and tongue-tied when I call them.

So, I come to you.

I have a 55 Betty with Albatross bars.
1. Can a Bosco-type bar work? What about all this top tube talk?
2. What is really the difference between Bosco and Bullmoose?
3. How do you choose the sizes?
4. Why is the Bullmoose so expensive compared to Bosco?
5. I have a steep uphill commute home from the boys' school. Can you stand up and pedal/climb with a Bosco bar?
6. Am I going to mess up all the other stuff I like about the fit of my Betty if I change bars?

If I'm better off calling Riv, I'll do it. But if you have sage advice prior to me making that awkward phone call, I'll take it. Ha!

[Deacon Patrick]

1. Bosco will work fine. But you are right, different frames feel different with the same bars, so what you love about the Clem may be different on the Betty.

2. Bullmoose bars are a triangulated (and fixed) handlebar/stem. This is also why bullmoose are more expensive that bar only, but the same as bar and stem.

3. I'd talk with Rivendell on sizing. But in general you'll likely prefer a narrower bar, and that is (I think?) what is on the Clem (at least the Clementines).

4. See #2 above.

5. Absolutely. You may want to grip them farther forward when doing so.

6. It will feel different, and that's good. One way to find out. I've taking several years to dial in my details (like stem reach) with my shift from Albatross to Albastache. As a rule, change one thing at a time and live with it for a while. That will help you learn the relationship between all the various parts, shapes, and sizes.

There is no magic answer, just further learning and refining of what you like for the riding you do. This also means you have permission to play and learn. Grin. Enjoy!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Garth]

    All you'd need is different stem, one that angles upward(positive rise) instead of flat even with the top tube, but that depends on how much reach you need. There are other non Nitto alternatives for this too but if you are set on certain "look", then forget this idea ! Riv should be able to assist you .

   Whether the Bosco would work for you or not depends on your sense of being centered in the bike, simply your "stance". No one can really tell you this as it's entirely personal, and you likely are not understanding one word of what I say, but you know it regardless of the words ;)

  IDK , sounds too you have a case of upgrade-itis . It's much easier to catch than even the munchies and this list is engulfed in it! See/hear of someone with a new toy, gotta have a new toy too.... lah de dah de dah ! 

[Will]

Call Riv and ask whether this works... they will probably want to know what stem is on the Clem and what stem is on your Foy. This will be your cheapest solution since the Albas will transfer with their levers and shifters. The key thing is reach. This stem may put the bars too far forward.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/st2quill.htm

[Patrick Moore]

You now are officially diagnose with the horrible disease of chronicus bicyclus upgraditis. There is no cure; you can only relieve the symptoms by buying new stuff. Go for it!

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[dougP]

Leah:

I agree with others that calling Rivendell is you best starting point.  As you note, there is a lot going on with handlebars, positioning, controls, etc.  You've got the problem pretty well outlined so you can speak with confidence, and they may have a few questions you haven't thought of.

Patrick points out a common malady, so don't expect this to be the "final upgrade".  There is no final upgrade, and to date no 12 step program to recovery.  That's how so many on this list (and others) accumulate vast collections of handlebars, seats, racks, luggage, etc. 

Of course, an alternate solution is just to get a Clem.  Sometimes I think I must be the only person on this list with only a single Rivendell.  There are certain listers who even have multiple versions of the same model of Rivendell. 

dougP

[Leah Peterson]

Doug, no more Rivs! I have visions of riding this bike when I'm 70. Someone posted a video (was it you, Patrick Moore?) of an old bike repair shop in Amsterdam (or somewhere close) with a man at the helm by the name of Hans. He could fix anything. This elderly woman came bawling to his shop mournfully explaining about her damaged bike and couldn't he fix it? "This bike is my LEGS!" she wailed. "Yes, Anna, now please make me a sandwich." 

She had such history with her bike. She was profoundly attached to it. That's what I want. 

And maybe some new handlebars. :)

Sent from my iPhone

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[David Person]

When you talk to Riv, direct them to your New Bike Day Flickr album and they will be able to see the two bikes together in several of the pictures, which may help them answer your questions.

[Joe Bernard]

Leah, I believe the 52 Clem and 55 Betty have similar toptube lengths, so you should theoretically be able to replicate the riding position with his Bosco Bullmoose model on your bike. The pics I've seen of your bikes show that the stem length is similar with both bars you've ridden. Your levers and shifters will transfer easily, but you may need linger cables. I've run both bars on my Clem, and Boscos are TALL.

[dougP]

Leah:

I completely understand; I have similar feelings toward my Atlantis.  As to riding it when I'm 70, well, that'll happen next election cycle.  Grant has said his bikes are "....bikes to grow old with....". 

David's suggestion of the photos is excellent.  Run with it.

dougP

[Eric Daume]

Why would anyone buy the bullmoose version of the Bosco, though? Loosing the adjustability of the stem length and angle is a huge price to pay for the retro vibe.

Eric

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah, I believe the 52 Clem and 55 Betty have similar toptube lengths, so you should theoretically be able to replicate the riding position with his Bosco Bullmoose model on your bike. The pics I've seen of your bikes show that the stem length is similar with both bars you've ridden. Your levers and shifters will transfer easily, but you may need linger cables. I've run both bars on my Clem, and Boscos are TALL.

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[LeahFoy]

Joe - which bar did you prefer on your Clem? (I know you didn't have your Clem long, but still...) And if you're correct and my shifters will transfer to the Bosco bar, all the better. I LOVE the look of my silver shifters and nothing else will do.

[Joe Bernard]

Leah, I didn't like the Boscos on my 45 Clem - the height and reach-back cramped the cockpit for me - but they were great on the 52 Clem I rode at RBW. If you have a good amount of lean into your Albas then these bars will work; if you're already sitting bolt upright, then Boscos will exaggerate that sensation too much.

[Leah Peterson]

Excellent point. I think my Albatrosses cause a fair amount of lean. I say so because I feel like my elbows are locked and after a long ride, they’re stiff and I have to sit up and use my fingertips to grip the bar. I’ll call Riv today and maybe they can give me all the mystical answers I seek.

> On Jul 25, 2016, at 8:37 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Leah, I didn't like the Boscos on my 45 Clem - the height and reach-back cramped the cockpit for me - but they were great on the 52 Clem I rode at RBW. If you have a good amount of lean into your Albas then these bars will work; if you're already sitting bolt upright, then Boscos will exaggerate that sensation too much.
>

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[masmojo]

Honestly, I prefer the albatross for all around riding, Bosco's are fine, but they are even more sensitive to bar height adjustment. Just raising mine 1/4" was a huge improvement and difference in feel. Additionally, they might not feel as good on your bike as they do on your husband's.
Maybe you could do a short term swap!?

[LeahFoy]

I finally got around to calling Riv. Brian asked about my current stem length, which of course I don't know - I said, "Whatever a 55 BF came with in late 2012". He instructed me to measure it. Then he got to thinking that maybe it would just be better to spring for the Bosco bull moose and not mess with the stem at all. He suspects I probably need a longer one because the Bosco bar ends will be a full 2 inches closer to me. Pricey. And who knows if these bars are even going to feel right on this bike. Just because I liked them on the Clem means nothing for the BF. Your thoughts? Would you:
A.) Leave well enough alone, you idiot.
B.) Try Bosco bars with whatever stem is already on the bike.
C.) Get the Bullmoose Boscos and be done with it.
D.) Steal the Clem and convince husband that the BF is actually his bike.
E.) Buy a Clementine and wait to be served with divorce papers.
F.) All of the above.

***Also, I can't switch our bars to see how I like it. I have to pay a LBS do the work AND I'm hiding these bars from my husband who will be appalled that I'm spending more money on this bike of mine.***

[dougP]

Leah:

Buying quality bike accessories is NOT spending; it's investing.  A bit of fiddling here, changing there, & voila!  In a couple of years you'll be posting "FS" ads here.  How do you think we all have all this stuff for sale?  Join in the fun. 

Forget Option A; that's just too common sensical & no fun at all.  Option D sounds like a grand adventure (if he got his crate, that would help you pull off this switcheroo), while Option E sounds positively exciting (especially given the perceived risk).  I'll leave comments on Options B & C to those with experience with those bars.

You won't be able to rest until you change something, so just go for it. 

dougP 

[Jeff Lesperance]

I would not invest in a bullmoose style of handlebar unless I was positive that the effective reach and angle were spot-on, so I vote B. IMHO bullmoose bars are a fashion upgrade once fit is fully sorted. I'm sure the Bosco Bullmoose is very forgiving in the reach department, but I know that many folks who use swept-back bars use a variety of angles that the bars sit at which affects the angle your wrists sit at when gripping the bar pending reach - this is not adjustable on a bullmoose bar. If one strictly rides short distance, then maybe none of this matters, but as you tack on more miles per ride, this fit element can have a major impact on your enjoyment or lack thereof. If you're smitten with the Bosco bar then I'd recommend the standard version paired with your existing stem so that you can confirm reach and angle that you prefer. Stems can often be found for sale second-hand at a good bargain on this list if you find you need more or less stem length and they are far easier to resell and ship, just from a packing perspective, once you find the right one, vs. trying to resell a Bosco bullmoose if it doesn't work for you.

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

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[Joe Bernard]

I suspect Brian is right about stem length - them Boscos come WAY back - which means you're in for the same cash whether you buy separate pieces or the Bullmoose. I would pop for the Bullmoose, especially because they'll have more appeal on this list if you decide to remove and sell. My totally uneducated personal hunch is there isn't much market for regular Boscos because they almost always require a longer stem, too. Have fun!

[Joe Bernard]

Oh, I forgot to answer A). Your description of riding with fingertips at the end of rides tells me the Albas don't reach back enough. When I rode the Bosco-ed Clem at RBW I alternated between the rear grips, and resting at the tops of the curves like hoods on a dropbar. I think you'll like it.

[David Person]

The one advantage of separate bars and stem is that it allows you to adjust the angle of the bars.  With the Bullmoose style the bar and stem are one unit, fixed at a certain angle, so you can't change the position of the grips like you can if you have separate bars and stem.

I vote for B.

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I vote for C)  Bosco Bullmooses are great.  Perfect, even.  Not being able to screw up the angle and not being able to fiddle with the angle are features, not bugs, in my opinion.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, July 27, 2016 at 2:30:04 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:

[Justin August]

A.) Leave well enough alone, you idiot.

I think there's some value in that.

B.) Try Bosco bars with whatever stem is already on the bike.

I wouldn't. Those Boscos come back miles.

C.) Get the Bullmoose Boscos and be done with it.

I wouldn't as you're not sure if the reach and tilt of the bar are appropriate for you yet.

D.) Steal the Clem and convince husband that the BF is actually his bike.

I would support this

E.) Buy a Clementine and wait to be served with divorce papers.

This seems reasonable.

F.) All of the above.

I would add a G) which is really just a permutation of B. Get Boscos, try them and then buy a stem that's 2-5cm longer when you realize the bars come back too far.

Then there's H) which is do any of the above and then swap it back to Albas in 3-6 months when you start missing them.

-Justin

[Pondero]

Another option...buy the non-bullmoose Boscos and use with your current stem TEMPORARILY until you find where your hands like to be on the swept back part of the bar.  Measure between that spot and the end of the bar, and buy a stem THAT much longer than the one you have.

Chris Johnson

Sanger, Texas

[Garth]

   What was the stem length you measured and exactly what stem is it ?

As I mentioned previously, you may simply be able to raise the Alba bars with a different stem.  Neither the Alba or the Bosco is anything special by themselves, the purpose of them is have your hands where you want them in conjunction with the stem.  They work in unison, change one and the other may "seem" totally wrong/right, but not really at all as it's the combination that counts as neither by themselves will do anything for you.

[Mark in Beacon]

I have both versions and I agree with Bill. Bosco Bulls! Or lie down and wait for the feeling to pass.

[Deacon Patrick]

Bill and Mark nailed it. Cut through the noise and complexity: Bosco Bulls.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Jeff Lesperance]

And when the angle and reach aren't quite right for her riding style and anatomy.... Buy a separate bar and stem? Bar angle is not complex and minor angles do matter for some folks, same for reach. 

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[Jim D Massachusetts]

Another data point. I agree with Jeff and ponder. Get the regular Boscos, then get whatever stem you need to make them perfect.        Jim D           Massachusetts

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Don't ever like to disagree with smart guys like Bill, Deac and Mark, but much as I like Bullmoose bars of all types, the Bosco Bullmoose (which I have on two bikes) is perfect on one (Mystery Bike) and only ok on the other (MB-2 Resurrectio), and the reason is bar grip angle (which is, I think, very sensitive to frame size and geometry). 

I really do love Boscos, though, so I'd vote for whichever option involves getting the regular Boscos and finding a stem to fit.  Someone said stems are pretty cheap used on this list, and I agree 100%.  I must have half a dozen reasonably nice ones I'd sell for a very reasonable price, and a couple of serviceable ones I'd let go for the cost of shipping. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[James Warren]

Of course if we never get around to selling the parts used in our experiments, our house guests begin to say to us, "oh, I'll sleep in your guest room with the stems!"


Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 27, 2016, at 3:45 PM, dougP

[Scott McLain]

My wife rides a betty with a bosco bar.  It has a super long stem to offset some of the reach back of the bosco.  Her betty is a 58 so it is already a big size.  The bosco's really make the cockpit shorter so there is not enough room to operate for my taste.  I think if you go to the boscos you will want to make sure that your stem is long, like a 12cm (120mm).  My wife is 5-8 (I can't share any more of her measurements without her permission).

Here are some pictures

https://flic.kr/p/HTwwiz

I think the albatross bar is more elegant, but the boscos will raise things up quite a bit.  Another option would be to use the "dirt drop" style stem on your albatross bar.

Best,

Scott

[Corwin]

Hi Leah -

I would level with hubby. He sounds pretty reasonable. Heck - he's got TWO Rivendells in his garage. I would start with this - tell hubby you LOVE his setup on the Clem and have not stopped thinking about it since you rode his bike. I would ask Hubby if you can borrow his bike to take the kids to and from school. Then I would ride the Clem, varying hand positions till you get a feel for how the Boscos are different from Albas.

After a few rides on the Clem, I would approach Hubby again and suggest you want to try Boscos on the Betty - but don't want to break the bank doing so. You can suggest you swap bars between the Clem and Betty. I think if you pose it as an adventure - he gets to try something new and help you in the bargain - he will see the value in improving your situation. Then you can mount the Boscos on the Betty and vary the hand positions - trying to figure out if Boscos will work farther forward or not.

I think if you emphasize the adventure/fun part and make Hubby a partner in your plan, it will go much farther. Plus, I don't think it's a good idea to try to get your boys to hide anything from Hubby (or you). Once you have made him a partner and thoroughly scoped out the situation, I am sure he will see that a couple hundred dollars invested to make your biking [even more] blissful is money well spent.

Thanks,


Corwin

[Leah Peterson]

Geez this bike is lovely... Swoon....

Sent from my iPhone

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[Leah Peterson]

Corwin, you are so very right. I should be upfront with JP. But, for laughs, I must tell you about The JP Official Manipulation Policy. Many years ago, when we were first married, I would round down - ok, way down - when disclosing purchases. He figured out that I was doing it, learned to run his own calculations, and has developed his own formula for calculating how much off the real price is. He - get ready - finds this FLATTERING because it shows I care enough about him to manipulate him, and because it requires real effort and finesse. Also, the policy is not just financial but applies to anything I may be trying to negotiate with him. 

We've made it 12 years, how many more do you think before he no longer finds this cute? 

I don't think I can pull off the new Clementine, but I bet I can finesse a pair of bars onto the bike. 😜

Sent from my iPhone

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[Corwin]

Sounds pretty wild to me. JP not only enjoys the enjoys the diversion - he's created tools to assist him decipher your ruse. In this case, I suggest presenting him with three options:

1) New Bosco bullmoose. Explain this is the highest risk option because they may not work and you will be stuck with the bars - trying to sell them for some fraction of what you paid.

2) New Boscos with the Nitto Lugged stem. This option will make the one you really want look much better. You should add some wild reason why this option is great.

3) New Boscos with a Dirt Drop or Tallux stem. This is likely the one you want (or possibly just a new Dirt Drop or Tallux with less reach).

Then price options 1, 2 and 3 with JP's formula to make the (real) cost of #1 $200, #2 $300 and #3 $100.

He should pick #3 and feel honored that you led/deceived him into picking it.

What happens when you get a car repair bill or an invoice from the plumber? Heck - what happens when you talk about buying a house?

Thanks,



Corwin

[dougP]

"We've made it 12 years, how many more do you think before he no longer finds this cute? "

Perhaps it's also working in his favor?  How do you know how much he really spent on that new (fishing rod, golf clubs, pick-your-expensive-hobby)?  I think you two have a fun thing going.  Harmless & enjoyable. 

dougP

On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 9:17:14 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:

[Ryan Fleming]

Wow...I love that birdcage bottle cage...that's a really unique touch on a very nice bike! Wherever did you find that?

[David Person]

Portland Design Works Bird Cage.

https://www.amazon.com/Portland-Design-Works-Water-Bottle/dp/B009F9ZOXK/ref=sr_1_1?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1469826883&sr=1-1&keywords=portland+design+works

[Bill M.]

Know your memes:

Put a bird on it.

[Clayton.sf]

Get the bull moose boscos now.
The 54cm is still fillet brazed but the wider one is now tigged. Same with the regular bull moose.
The filleted version looks a lot nicer to me and I am likely not alone. Meaning as the transition to tigged bars progresses your filleted bull moose should hold its value nicely, so it is a low risk investment. Though you might be bummed sleeping on it.

Clayton Scott
SF CA

[Justin August]

I imagine it would be hard to replicate my current pillow arrangement due to the fixed angle.

-Justin

[Lungimsam]

Here's how it goes between me and my wife:

She: What was that you got on the credit card statement for 75$?
Me: Some bike stuff from Rivendell.
She: Oh, ok.
Me: The necklace I got you for your birthday sure looks nice. You really like it?
She: Yeah, but you should have waited and got that on sale. I had 20% coupon.
Me: I know, but you're worth it.

[Leah Peterson]

Sweet, you two!

Sent from my iPhone

[dougP]

This has an eeriely familiar ring to it.  Esp. the part about the coupon.

dougP

[A CT Cyclist]

If you just want to get the bars higher on the Betty Foy, try a Nitto MT-10 dirt drop stem. This is a taller version of the dirt drops and gives way more height than the regular dirt drops. This stem gets the bars higher than the 6 inches of rise available with the Technomic stem or the 7 inches of rise gained with either the regular dirt drop stem or the Periscopa (Nitto FU 82) which has a 25.4 mm clamp area. As you can see in the link provide, you can get them for $57.99 shipped.                   http://www.benscycle.com/p-2500-nitto-dirt-drop-mt-10-riser-quill-stem.aspx