For those of you who don't subscribe to the Compass/BQ mailings ... New Compass Tires Now Available

[Patrick Moore]

I just ordered a multi-year stock of the Elk Pass. The Rat Trap Pass looks particularly nice; wish it came in a 700C version.

New Tires Available And Others Back In Stock View this email in your browser The four new Compass tires are in stock now! They are the Rat Trap Pass (26″ x 54 mm), Switchback Hill (650B x 48 mm), Bon Jon Pass (700C x 35 mm), and Elk Pass (26″ x 1.25″). The Rat Trap Pass (above) is the ultimate expression of our new Enduro Allroad tires. With its 54 mm width, it is incredibly plush on rough gravel, yet thanks to the smaller 26″ wheel size, it has the same rotational inertia as a medium-width 700C tire, and thus handles like a good road tire on pavement. The Rat Trap Pass has already proven itself in this year’s Paris-Brest-Paris, where it provided wonderful comfort and security for a tandem team on the rough roads of Brittany. Buy The Rat Trap Pass Tires Here At 48 mm wide, the Switchback Hill is our largest 650B (27.5″) tire yet. Named after the first major climb in the Oregon Outback gravel race, the extra floatation gives you more speed and security when the going gets really rough. 30% of the Oregon Outback is on pavement, so we designed this tire to roll as fast and grip as well as a good racing tire. With this tire, you truly have the best of both worlds. The Switchback Hill also can transform the performance of your 27.5″ mountain bike on gravel or paved roads. Buy The Switchback Hill Tires Here The Bon Jon Pass is our Goldilocks tire: at 700C x 35 mm, it fits bikes that have extra clearance around the Stampede Pass (32 mm), but not enough space for a Barlow Pass (38mm). Whether smooth gravel or rough pavement, the Bon Jon Pass will make your bike fly!  Buy The Bon Jon Pass Tires Here. The Elk Pass 26″ x 1.25″ tires (32 mm-wide) are superlight tires for bikes with 26″ wheels. If you are looking for the fastest, lightest 26″ tire ever made, this likely is it. Not only does it weigh just 178 g, but it uses the Compass Extralight casing and our ultra-sticky tread rubber for the ultimate in suppleness and cornering grip. It also is a great emergency spare tire for those traveling off the beaten path with 26″ wheels. The Elk Pass already has proven itself on challenging rides in the Cascade Mountains and in this year’s Paris-Brest-Paris. Buy The Elk Pass Tires Here Like most Compass tires, the new tires are available with “Standard” casings and tan sidewalls, as well as with “Extralight” casings in a choice of black or tan sidewalls. (The Elk Pass 26″ x 1.25″ is available only with Extralight casing and tan sidewalls.)   In addition to the new tires, we've resupplied our existing offerings. This means that favorites like the White Grand Bois Hetres, Black Extralight Compass Chinook Pass 700C x 28, and more are back in stock. Click here to see all of our tires. Copyright © 2015 Compass Bicycles LTD, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, either on the newsletter page or during checkout when placing an order. Our mailing address is: Compass Bicycles LTD 2442 NW Market St. #426 Seattle, WA 98107 Add us to your address book Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list

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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. Carthusian motto

 

[Ginz]

I'm a bit surprised at the 2.3" width.  There are a lot of touring bikes that can fit a 1.75 or 2.0...but 2.3 is really out there. In the 559 wheel size, we're talking mountain bike.

[Philip Kim]

Is this a typo? Because I thought it was supposed to be 54-55mm, which means 2.1ish.

Also, I remember reading these actually measured out to be 50mm on their prototype. I wonder if they resolved that, but I don't know anything about the tire molding process and how easy/difficult it is to change specs.

[Jeff Lesperance]

The copy on the page where these are for sale (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/26-inch/compass-26-x-2-3-rat-trap-pass/) contains the conflicting measurement info:

Compass 26″ x 2.3″ Rat Trap Pass

...

The Rat Trap Pass (26″ x 54mm)

I also recall that actual measured width was reported to be closer to 50mm. I ordered up a pair to see if they'll fit on my Handsome XOXO, which has handled 2.1" semi-knobbies with a bit of wiggle room. If they don't fit my 10-year old is going to have the fanciest tires in the 'hood....

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

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[EGNolan]

Jeff,

Please update us once you know whether/how they fit. I've got an XOXO as well and would love to know how it goes.

Best,

Eric

[true]

So 2.125 x 26.

 

http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/millimeters-to-inches.htm

 

Sounds good for my rigid mtb's converted to urban crusisers.

 

Paul in Dallas.

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[Zack]

my kingdom* for a fatter 700c compass tire than the barlow pass.

(i do not actually have a kingdom)

[Justin August]

I am *so happy* this gets posted two days after I make the commitment to reign in all my spending before my wedding.

SO.

HAPPY.

:/

-J

[James Warren]

For me, we're talking older mountain bike that is likely to get more fun use once I put these tires on it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ginz
Sent: Aug 28, 2015 7:49 AM
To: internet-bob
Cc: bert...@gmail.com, rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: [BOB] For those of you who don't subscribe to the Compass/BQ mailings ... New Compass Tires Now Available

I'm a bit surprised at the 2.3" width.  There are a lot of touring bikes that can fit a 1.75 or 2.0...but 2.3 is really out there. In the 559 wheel size, we're talking mountain bike.

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[Joe Bunik]

be careful about signing any documents!!! ;-P
=- Joe

[Tim Gavin]

The 622 x 60 Super Moto is a worthy stand-in, if you can fit it.

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

my kingdom* for a fatter 700c compass tire than the barlow pass.

(i do not actually have a kingdom)

--

[cyclotourist]

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;menu=1000%2C2%2C103%2C212;search=super+moto+29;product=101777 

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Pondero]

Just ordered a pair of Rat Trap Pass tires for the Atlantis. I think the clearance will be a bit tighter than I'd prefer at the chainstays, but will give them a go. They could be ideal for the dry gravel roads I routinely ride. They would have been great today, riding farther west than normal on rougher, sandier roads (but I managed fine with my Hilsen and Lierres).

I'm not telling anyone but you guys how much money I just spent on two bicycle tires.

Chris Johnson
Sanger, Texas

[Jan Heine]

There isn't a technical reason... but the issue of how many tires we can produce and stock. We figured that somebody who absolutely needs black tires can upgrade from Standard to Extralight casings, whereas downgrading from Extralight to Standard just because you want black would be giving up significant performance. That said, I think tan sidewalls look great on many modern bikes, as they emphasize the wheels, which are the most important parts of the bike, after all. Modern all-black bikes tend to look like amorphous blobs to me, with little to catch my attention.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles

www.compasscycle.com

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 7:51:49 PM UTC+2, Chris L wrote:

Is there a technical reason for this?  Some of us much prefer the look of an all black tire over one with a tan sidewall, especially those of us running MTB's.  

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 12:48:33 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:

The Rat Trap Pass 26" x 2.3" measures about 53-54 mm wide on most rims. It's pretty much the largest tire you can fit on a custom bike with "road" cranks (and thus a narrow tread/Q factor).

As to the black sidewalls, they are available only with the Extralight casing. The Standard casing is available only with tan sidewalls. The Extralight comes both in tan and black.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

[Benz]

Tan sidewalls also have a functional benefit of being more conducive to visual verification of tire pressure. In other words, it's easier to do a quick check of tire pressure while riding by glancing down. That's in addition to tan sidewalls being able to show the "marks of hard men", aka stained sidewalls from rim brake effluent when riding in the rain, of course...

[Eric Daume]

But I'll trade those marginal benefits of tan sidewalls a thousand times over for the greater UV resistance of black tires. It's rare I can wear a tire's tread out before the sidewalls are disintegrating--except for Blackwall tires. 

Eric

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[Patrick Moore]

Huh. My own first source of tire pressure information, beside using a gauge, is the way they feel on the road. I can't say that black sidewalls ever gave me more information about tire pressure than tan ones.

That said, I personally like the looks of black sidewalls better.

[Will]

I have an Atlantis and worry about clearance too. Would you post your clearance results (perhaps a photo too)?

Thanks,

Will

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I don't know what kind of pressure you ride at, but I run my fat tires at a pretty low pressure for comfort. The roads around the SF bay area aren't getting any better and I found that Frank Berto's recommendation plus a smidgeon works well. At those pressures, it's not easy to tell when one has a slow leak with the resulting pressure drop during a ride. In fact, I had a spill once when my front lost pressure slowly during a ride. The pressure drop was not noticeable and I only found out when I tried to corner semi-aggressively and the tire "folded over". Nowadays, I just do a quick glance down before I do something foolish.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I can't say I've ever had sidewalls disintegrate on me, tan or black walls. But of course YMMV.

I typically ride tires that aren't known for their durability in terms of expected mileage. Hetres and Jack Brown greens are at the higher end of expected mileage amongst the tires I use, with Vittoria Open Corsa CXs at the other end. I'm also on the fastidious side when it comes to taking care of my bikes, to the extent of even ensuring parked bikes (at home) aren't exposed to direct sunlight unnecessarily. Again, you may not be nearly that extreme.

And as I explained in my other reply on this thread, the ability to visually verify the tire pressure while riding isn't entirely marginal for me. At least in one case, I maybe could had mitigated a crash (that was fairly expensive since it took out my Assos costume) if I was able to do that.

Horses for course, really. You and I have different problems. :)

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[Patrick Moore]

I'm still experimenting with the 27.XX Elk Pass, but so far, about 55 psi. Kojaks: about the same. Furious Freds, ~18/22 -- 17/20. 60 mm Big Apples: 15/18. I can pretty quickly tell if the pressure is significantly lower by the feel on the straights -- they start bouncing if the pressure drops.

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[Jeff Lesperance]

Installed the RTP today on the XOXO. It's a very tight fit, vertically, on the front. No problem on the rear. Unless you're comfortable with shaving down the protrusion under the fork crown, forget about running close to max recommended pressure of 55psi (though why would you?) - at ~35psi there's a couple millimeters of clearance if that. Width is measuring 52.5mm on Rhyno Lite rims. Test ride/commute has to wait for tomorrow.

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[cyclotourist]

Nice! I'd knock that down with a dremel tool pretty quick. Some nail polish and good to go!

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[Chris Cullum]

What the heck is that protrusion? It looks highly unnecessary and a bit of a nuisance.

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[Jeff Lesperance]

Never thought about it till I put these giant tires on. I have been staring across my workbench at my set of files and dremel, though playing the "is this a vestigial feature" on the fork is a special kind of game to play.

[cyclotourist]

Zzzzzzzzzzrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaa......

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[EGN]

But if I file it off then the square hole I've cut in my fender will become unnecessary...

I'll file it now & wait for my Pasela's to wear out & order some of these.

Best,

Eric

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2015, at 11:44 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Zzzzzzzzzzrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaa......

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 8:24 PM, Jeff Lesperance <jeff.le...@gmail.com> wrote:

Never thought about it till I put these giant tires on. I have been staring across my workbench at my set of files and dremel, though playing the "is this a vestigial feature" on the fork is a special kind of game to play.

<9_2_15 - 2>

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:13 PM, Chris Cullum <cullum...@gmail.com> wrote:

What the heck is that protrusion? It looks highly unnecessary and a bit of a nuisance.

On Sep 2, 2015 10:12 PM, "Jeff Lesperance" <jeff.le...@gmail.com> wrote:

Installed the RTP today on the XOXO. It's a very tight fit, vertically, on the front. No problem on the rear. Unless you're comfortable with shaving down the protrusion under the fork crown, forget about running close to max recommended pressure of 55psi (though why would you?) - at ~35psi there's a couple millimeters of clearance if that. Width is measuring 52.5mm on Rhyno Lite rims. Test ride/commute has to wait for tomorrow.

<9_2_15 - 1>

[Zach Duval]

I'd love to try out the Switchback Hills on my Sam but have to wear my Surly Knards and CdlVs (budget tires, at about $15 apiece) before I'll be willing to spring for them.

Please post pictures (and possibly actual measurements) anyone who mounts the Switchbacks!

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 7:32:50 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

I just ordered a multi-year stock of the Elk Pass. The Rat Trap Pass looks particularly nice; wish it came in a 700C version.

New Tires Available And Others Back In Stock View this email in your browser The four new Compass tires are in stock now! They are the Rat Trap Pass (26″ x 54 mm), Switchback Hill (650B x 48 mm), Bon Jon Pass (700C x 35 mm), and Elk Pass (26″ x 1.25″). The Rat Trap Pass (above) is the ultimate expression of our new Enduro Allroad tires. With its 54 mm width, it is incredibly plush on rough gravel, yet thanks to the smaller 26″ wheel size, it has the same rotational inertia as a medium-width 700C tire, and thus handles like a good road tire on pavement. The Rat Trap Pass has already proven itself in this year’s Paris-Brest-Paris, where it provided wonderful comfort and security for a tandem team on the rough roads of Brittany. Buy The Rat Trap Pass Tires Here At 48 mm wide, the Switchback Hill is our largest 650B (27.5″) tire yet. Named after the first major climb in the Oregon Outback gravel race, the extra floatation gives you more speed and security when the going gets really rough. 30% of the Oregon Outback is on pavement, so we designed this tire to roll as fast and grip as well as a good racing tire. With this tire, you truly have the best of both worlds. The Switchback Hill also can transform the performance of your 27.5″ mountain bike on gravel or paved roads. Buy The Switchback Hill Tires Here The Bon Jon Pass is our Goldilocks tire: at 700C x 35 mm, it fits bikes that have extra clearance around the Stampede Pass (32 mm), but not enough space for a Barlow Pass (38mm). Whether smooth gravel or rough pavement, the Bon Jon Pass will make your bike fly!  Buy The Bon Jon Pass Tires Here. The Elk Pass 26″ x 1.25″ tires (32 mm-wide) are superlight tires for bikes with 26″ wheels. If you are looking for the fastest, lightest 26″ tire ever made, this likely is it. Not only does it weigh just 178 g, but it uses the Compass Extralight casing and our ultra-sticky tread rubber for the ultimate in suppleness and cornering grip. It also is a great emergency spare tire for those traveling off the beaten path with 26″ wheels. The Elk Pass already has proven itself on challenging rides in the Cascade Mountains and in this year’s Paris-Brest-Paris. Buy The Elk Pass Tires Here Like most Compass tires, the new tires are available with “Standard” casings and tan sidewalls, as well as with “Extralight” casings in a choice of black or tan sidewalls. (The Elk Pass 26″ x 1.25″ is available only with Extralight casing and tan sidewalls.)   In addition to the new tires, we've resupplied our existing offerings. This means that favorites like the White Grand Bois Hetres, Black Extralight Compass Chinook Pass 700C x 28, and more are back in stock. Click here to see all of our tires. Copyright © 2015 Compass Bicycles LTD, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you opted in at our website, either on the newsletter page or during checkout when placing an order. Our mailing address is: Compass Bicycles LTD 2442 NW Market St. #426 Seattle, WA 98107 Add us to your address book Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list

[Jeff Lesperance]

I flipped the XOXO on its head today, with bastard file and dremel in hand, ready to subtract some metal. I found what appears to be some structural elements on the underside of the crown, representing some of the protrusion into the space I'd prefer to be occupied by tire rubber or just air. I decided to knock the center point down a millimeter or so with the file, applied some of my kids' orange fingernail polish and flipped the XOXO back to the rubber side down and went for a ride....

My initial reaction is that I'm a bit underwhelmed with the tires. I ride the 700x38 Barlow Pass on my Sam Hillborne and 650bx42 Babyshoe Pass on my Homer, and they are life-changing tires on those bikes. I didn't have an epiphany while riding the Rat Trap Pass for the first time, but we'll see how they do with a long mixed surface ride this weekend and a week of commuting.

Pics of my bike surgery efforts and the scary looking metal bits I wasn't ready to subtract from my fork:

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Mark Bulgier <ma...@bulgier.net> wrote:

I can make you some more clearance under that crown in about 5 minutes, if you don't mind that the paint will be gone locally... ;)
That downward-projection on the bottom of the fork crown is probably not needed*, and can be filed off.

*Well, it is conceivable that the steerer braze to the crown was poorly done, and it is depending on the extra surface area to be strong enough.  In that scenario you could be risking your neck by filing it off, and you'd certainly be voiding the warranty.

That crown is a Taiwanese- or Chinese-made knock-off of a Cinelli crown from the 80s.  I used a few of the Cinelli crowns starting in about 1984, including on my own MTB XC-race bike which I raced on a lot (in the pre-suspension days of course), and I have never been small, I tested it pretty good.  I always cut the bottom projection off because I thought it looked dumb, and functionally it was both unnecessary and harmful.  Harmful because for whatever tire clearance you want to design the fork for, the blades and overall fork length have to be longer with that projection.  A shorter fork is stronger and puts less bending leverage on the frame, so the frame is less stressed too, win-win.

Going out on a limb a bit but I think if the Cinelli crown is strong enough without that bit, then the Chinese knock-off probably is too.  I know I'd file it off if it were mine, but don't sue me if you do and it breaks, OK?

Mark Bulgier
Seattle

Jeff wrote:

Installed the RTP today on the XOXO. It's a very tight fit, vertically, on the front. No problem on the rear. Unless you're comfortable with shaving down the protrusion under the fork crown, forget about running close to max recommended pressure of 55psi (though why would you?) - at ~35psi there's a couple millimeters of clearance if that. Width is measuring 52.5mm on Rhyno Lite rims. Test ride/commute has to wait for tomorrow.

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[Jeff Lesperance]

I have the standard, not EL version of the RTP's, and I may have had them a bit higher pressure than what I'll eventually land at. I started with about 50 psi on the rear and 45 on the front. About halfway through my ~8 mile ride through a mostly urban area, I stopped and let a minimal, unmeasured amount of air out of each tire.

I think the XOXO is a relatively peppy ride, in my experience. I don't pay attention to angles, trail and other metrics, I just know when things feel different and if I like the ride or not. Compared to my Riv bikes, the XOXO has, had, almost twitchy front-end handling and jumps forward from a stopped position. I think it's lower trail than my Rivs and has either shorter chainstays or steeper seat tube or both. I think the introduction of the RTP's changes the trail (pneumatic trail?), slowing down the steering response a bit, and in some way, has deadened my acceleration feeling from a stop. I say carefully there "feeling" as I didn't actually time anything. 

I'll get out for a mixed surface ride tomorrow suburban streets -> urban streets -> hard-packed/rutted dirt/gravel -> mixed gravel/dirt/sand and play with the PSI, with a pump with a pressure gauge handy, to see if I can find nirvana with these tires. 

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 9:33 PM, mitch <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 6:30:54 PM UTC-6, Jeff wrote:

...My initial reaction is that I'm a bit underwhelmed with the tires. I ride the 700x38 Barlow Pass on my Sam Hillborne and 650bx42 Babyshoe Pass on my Homer, and they are life-changing tires on those bikes. I didn't have an epiphany while riding the Rat Trap Pass for the first time, but we'll see how they do with a long mixed surface ride this weekend and a week of commuting...

Remind us what pressure you used for your test ride (and if you're RTPS are EL version)?  I wonder if you had them at too high a pressure to feel the ride? I doubt it if you're already familiar with the Barlow Pass tires. One thing I noticed about the Baby Shoe Pass is how low the pressure could go without feeling sluggish. At the point where they are in danger of snakebite at every bump and they can't even corner right, they still feel fast. Non-supple tires feel deadly sluggish as soon as they're below a relatively high pressure. In other words as soon as you have to flex the sidewalls noticeably, they complain. I've wondered whether the big RTPs would feel too bouncy. I know the BSP ELs felt bouncy at first so I wonder what twice the volume will feel like. 

--Mitch

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[cyclotourist]

Looks like a good surgery, hopefully the patient is recovering nicely!

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[Jeff Lesperance]

I didn't get out on the longer, mixed surface ride that I'd hoped for, but I have commuted on the XOXO a few times this week, and put in some bonus miles over some rough urban roads and a bit of offroad stuff. I'm definitely warming to the RTP's. The most significant performance feature that I'm noticing at this point is the confident cornering these tires allow. I feel like I can really lean the bike over significantly further in higher-speed corners than I could with the 26x2 Kojaks I was running. The nice round profile makes for confident and comfortable handling. I've slowly let a bit of air out of each tire on each trip and this is generally improving the just-riding-around feel of the tires, but I'm still not feeling the love and devotion that I have for the Barlow Pass and Babyshoe Pass tires on my other bikes. Maybe it's the bike. Hopefully I'll get out on a longer trip this weekend and can report further findings.

[Rod Holland]

I'm running the RTPs at 30 PSI front, 35 PSI rear on my Surly Trucker DeLuxe (I'm a 240lb rider). The tires are enough taller than the Compass 1.75s that they replaced that I've nicknamed the bike "Monster Trucker". Concur re cornering. Slowly accumulating experience with these, thus far all on pavement, rough and smooth; will try other surfaces as the opportunity arises. Feels like getting a new bike...

rod

[Rod Holland]

Should have said, I'm running RTP ELs...

rod

[Dave Johnston]

I
'm running 22psi front and 25psi rear on the FAtlantis for gravel. I weigh 140 though. I worry I am risking pinch flats.

-Dave

[Tim Gavin]

Dave - I've run 20 psi front / 25 psi rear on 559 x 60 Super Motos without flats (pinch or puncture), and I weigh #225.  I think you have low risk of pinches with this much volume.

Your FAtlantis looks great.

-Tim

[Jeff Lesperance]

I finally got out for the shakeout ride that should've been able to answer all the questions, and I think it did.... I did a ~40 mile loop on rough semi-urban roads, over a short stretch of deeply rutted hard-pack gravel/dirt, smooth packed gravel/dirt, then a slightly muddy stretch on the C&O canal trail around Georgetown, DC, before looping around some touristy/sightseeing spots, then turning around for a trip back. 

As a refresher, the ride: 60CM Handsome XOXO, small saddlebag with ~5 pounds of stuff, my ~215 pound self, and the Compass Rat Trap Pass tires, which I've been airing down all week, and landed with ~35 psi in the rear, and ~30 in the front.

All was good. I think we can conclude that for me, my size, and my bike, that I was just running them too high at first. When I initially started riding, the sidewall deflection on the rear looked like a bit much, but I experienced no bounciness or squirming from the rear. Cornering continued to be a fun thing to do at higher speed with these tires, and they ate up and smoothed out all of the bumps, divots and trail detritus that got in their way. There was one point, where I traversed a short segment of cobblestones, at the base of the stairs behind the Lincoln Memorial, heading down to the Potomac, where I thought I may have flatted the rear, as it did squirm a bit on the cobbles, but after a quick check, tire was fine.

I think the only thing that I might not love about these tires at this point isn't really a problem with the tires, it's probably more so with my frame. The tires are just so tall. I think I can get used to the general feel of the ride and handling with them on the XOXO, but at this point, they still are probably just a touch too big for the the geometry of this frame. I'm not going back to my Kojaks any time soon, but I may investigate a different frame to keep up with n+1

Some pics from the day

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:01 AM, mitch <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 8:21:30 AM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:

Should have said, I'm running RTP ELs...

If Jeff's RTP impression turns out to be different than others, the difference may well be the extra-light. I've ridden both regular and extralight versions of the Compass tires in narrower 700C tires and found the ride quality difference to be so noticeable for the extralights that when I was buying the Babyshoe Pass tires I didn't even consider the regular versions.

--Mitch

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[iamkeith]

 

Would anyone happen to know how the older "Compass" 26x1.75 tires compare, in terms of equivalency, to the standard and extra-light casing versions of the Rat Trap Pass tires?   The website doesn't really say, and I haven't gotten a response to an email inquiry to Jan.  

I  bought a pair of the standard-casing skinwall variety, to experimentally replace the Compass tires that I've been very happy with, on my All Rounder.  But I neglected to consider that I might like the current tires because they were more equivalent to the extra-light version, without realizing it.   Thought I should try to figure it out before I open the packages and mount them, in case I want to switch.

Thanks

[Bill Lindsay]

It is my understanding that the Compass 1.75 tires have a casing that is much more similar to the standard RTP casing.  I expect the difference in width will dwarf the casing difference.  In terms of equivalence I think you picked the right model (the standard RTP).  

[iamkeith]

Thanks, Bill.  That's what I needed to hear.  Now to mount them up and try to get a few rides in during the next couple of weeks before the snow starts flying.   Not much tread on these things...

[iamkeith]

DO THESE TIRES MAKE MY BIKE LOOK SKINNY?

I finally got a chance to install and try the RTPs on my AR, during a nice, long, autumn day ride on some dirt forest service roads.  I was hoping I wouldn't like them.  I mean, we eventually have to reach a point of diminishing returns, when wider is no longer better, right?  But, Jiminy Christmas - they're like riding on clouds! 

Good news is that the bike has tons of clearance to spare, with both the tires and fenders.  And still no toe clip overlap!  It's amazing that Rivendell had the foresight to anticipate something like this on a bike that was made in 1999.

Bad news is that, to really use them to full advantage, I think you need to purpose-build a bike around them right from the beginning.  As part of a retrofit, I'm afraid I might want to invest in smaller chainrings and wider fenders, but might NEED to invest in wider rims - none of which can I afford at the moment.   Can these 519 (19mm) Mavic rims [see pic. below] possibly give enough support for a tire this wide?  My gut says "no way," but I'd love it if someone could convince me otherwise. 

Best case scenario, I'm afraid that I can't run optimally-low pressures.   (I had 25# and 30# today.  Does that sound right for a 200# rider?)   Worse case scenario, I'm terrified that I'm going to roll a tire on a turn, and crash. ( I went down hard recently, on one of my narrow-rimmed 90's mountain bikes, because I had under-inflated after exclusively using, and becoming used to, the lower pressures of 3" and wider tires over the past few years.  But that was at a much slower speed than this thing will go.) 

So I took it easy on turns today.   On straight sections though, I rode at speeds I never would have thought prudent before.   It swallowed up jagged rocks, packed gravel, loose gravel, and everything else.   The "loose" gravel, in particular, really surprised me, as my previous experience with "slick" tires had taught me that they were completely dangerous for such conditions.  On these, I just kept giggling and going faster.   I don't know if it's a stickier compound, the extra width, or the ability to deform that made the difference. 

The other thing I kept thinking about the whole time was the unfair advantage that some super-fit Ravn riders are going to have, when they start showing up at gravel grinding "events."   Most people will have never seen it coming, and the naysayers won't be laughing for much longer!  Really fun tires!

[Patrick Moore]

Regarding 19 mm rims (are you measuring inside to inside, or outside to outside? 19 mm is very narrow; my Sun M14As and ME14As are 19 outside to outside, but these are exceptionally narrow even for narrow rims. I use 19 mm o-to-o rims for narrow (26") road tires.

That said, the 559 M14As were made back in the '90s for mountain bike use, and your typical Farmer John was about 50 mm wide, though with far, far FAR stiffer sidewalls. I rode many miles with 1.95s on these rims, off road, with no problems.

I think you'll be fine as long as you keep the pressure high enough -- IME, fat tires on narrow rims do fine, but are very sensitive to pressure; you need to keep them inflated enough to avoid sidewall flop, especially in cornering, and this is a fortiori true when the sidewalls are very thin, supple, and flexible.

OTOH, IME, very supple tires ride much more smoothly at higher pressures than do stiffer tires at the same pressures.

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[Patrick Moore]

Nice bike, btw.

Patrick Moore, who talked at length this morning with the Western States Jamis rep (parked at Fat Tire Cycles) about the demise of 26" and the new so-called 27.5" Plus -- Jamis has a new model for a 3" 27.5 tire; too bad I don't have $2,700.

[iamkeith]

Well I didn't actually even measure them, but I'm under the impression that Mavic's naming standard is based on the actual/interior measurement.  So, in this case, 519 is a lower grade/heavier series rim than a 719, but both are 19mm wide?  I'll measure the outer width just to make sure.

[iamkeith]

Thanks.   And my advice is to skip the 27.5 plus thing altogether, wait in the wings and save you pennies, and just go straight for 29+.  It's kind of a good parallel to the Rivendell/Rawland/Compass experience.  The mainstream industry wants to sell you whatever trend they're cooking, but the really revolutionary stuff is happening elsewhere.   29+ is just amazing and a whole level superior - especially if you want a rigid bike, which I suspect you would.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/09/2015 09:52 PM, iamkeith wrote:
> Thanks. And my advice is to skip the 27.5 plus thing altogether,
> wait in the wings and save you pennies, and just go straight for 29+.
> It's kind of a good parallel to the Rivendell/Rawland/Compass
> experience. The mainstream industry wants to sell you whatever
> trend they're cooking, but the really revolutionary stuff is happening
> elsewhere. 29+ is just amazing and a whole level superior -
> especially if you want a rigid bike, which I suspect you would.

All right, I'll bite: what is "29+" ?? And why would someone want it?

[Patrick Moore]

From my conversation with the Jamis rep this morning, I think that adding "Plus" to a designation means that the wheels and frame are made for 3" tires, and that the frame doesn't require special fat bike bb shells, bearing assemblies, or rear spacing (tho' the Jamis on display had a 148 mm OL spacing). 

My own interest is for some sort of cheap, simple, no suspension light bike that takes 3" tires and a 1 X N gearing, for occasional singletrack use. A good steel mtb frame from the very early '90s that takes at least 65 mm tires, and preferably 70s, and that has a Q of no more than 60 MM, would be ideal. Jamis rep said that no one is making high end 26ers any more, which I take with a quart or so of salt. Still, the new (April, '15) model he was washing on the stand this morning looks very nice.

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[Patrick Moore]

I agree; even the Jamis rep said that the "27.5+" schtick is very new, toute 2015, and that after a couple of years one will have many more choices and lower costs.

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 7:52 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks.   And my advice is to skip the 27.5 plus thing altogether, wait in the wings and save you pennies, and just go straight for 29+.  It's kind of a good parallel to the Rivendell/Rawland/Compass experience.  The mainstream industry wants to sell you whatever trend they're cooking, but the really revolutionary stuff is happening elsewhere.   29+ is just amazing and a whole level superior - especially if you want a rigid bike, which I suspect you would.

Patrick Moore, who talked at length this morning with the Western States Jamis rep (parked at Fat Tire Cycles) about the demise of 26" and the new so-called 27.5" Plus -- Jamis has a new model for a 3" 27.5 tire; too bad I don't have $2,700.

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[Patrick Moore]

Oh, I don't want a 29er for singletrack; I love 29ers for dirt, and think they roll better than 26er over smaller obstacles, but for singletrack I want a bike with smaller wheels. I have a Fargo, shortly to be replaced, God willing, with a Matthews Custom Cycles custom "road bike for dirt" designed for our local sandy, riverside trails.

But for singletrack, I want a smaller but wider wheeled machine with straight bar and high range, 1XN gearing.

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 7:52 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks.   And my advice is to skip the 27.5 plus thing altogether, wait in the wings and save you pennies, and just go straight for 29+.  It's kind of a good parallel to the Rivendell/Rawland/Compass experience.  The mainstream industry wants to sell you whatever trend they're cooking, but the really revolutionary stuff is happening elsewhere.   29+ is just amazing and a whole level superior - especially if you want a rigid bike, which I suspect you would.

Patrick Moore, who talked at length this morning with the Western States Jamis rep (parked at Fat Tire Cycles) about the demise of 26" and the new so-called 27.5" Plus -- Jamis has a new model for a 3" 27.5 tire; too bad I don't have $2,700.

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[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I don't know... my regular 29ers are way heavy with a lot of inertia... there's a lot of mass there. 29+ just seems like I'd be moving a lot more rubber and metal around. 27.5+ seems a lot more reasonable to work with. Especially with a diameter/circumference similar to a regular 29er wheel/tire. Haven't been on either, so happy to be proven wrong. 

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

What Steve said.

A 29x3" tire. Not quite a fat bike (>4") but larger than your everyday 29er hovering around 2.25".

A 27.5+ wheel (3") seems like the "it" size of the moment, especially as you can retrofit them into a 29er frame that can fit a 29X2.4" tire.

But as I mentioned above... mass. I like my wheels light! That's my one problem with 29ers, and why I'm toying with going to a 27.5 MTB (non plus).

[Patrick Moore]

One possible exception: My disk specific, 700C X 30 mm outside width rims, at sub 450 grams, with Furious Freds, 360 real grams at 50 mm wide and no tubes --- pretty damned light.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I meant what Patrick said.

Here's a real nice B+ bike: http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/dragonslayer.html

But really more bike than I need to pay the premium to get it.

[Patrick Moore]

That's the very one I saw in the stand this morning, down to color. Nice bike, but more $$ than I need to spend.

Frankly, a bike that fits the 26 X 3 Knard would be wonderful.

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[cyclotourist]

Someone has good tastes!

[iamkeith]

Wow, that Jamis does look like a nice bike.   I didn't mean to send this thread so off-course, but should respond.  I clung to small wheels on my mountain bikes and held out a long, long time before getting a 29er, and now kind of regret it.  But then I was lucky that the 29er I did eventually get had clearance enough for plus-size tires.  I've since retrofitted, and now feel like they're better in every way - at least for use in rough trail riding, which is really how I spend my time.   I'll never go back.

-  In terms of single-track, I sort of believe that wheelbase and steering geometry is more important than wheel size, for making something nimble.

-  In terms of 27.5+ vs 29 +, you're talking about actual diameters of 28" vs 31.5".   The argument usually cited here is "why ride a tire that can fall into a 28" hole? The larger one just rolls over more stuff, more easily." 

-  In terms of rotating mass, yeah - it's probably a "little" slower to spin up / accelerate.  But, as Seth said, "it's not a race."  I'm out to have fun, and all the better not to feel beat up at the end of a ride.  If its about climbing, then gears can compensate.  If its about overall speed on a course, I think 29ers now actually dominate most cross country events anyway, right? 

- Just as with the fat road tires we all keep chasing, the wider, plus mtb tires are softer and more comfortable, have better climbing traction, better cornering traction, better floatation, better rim protection.

For me, the more bump softening afforded by a tire the better, as my mountain bike is about as Rivish as you can get:  A fully-rigid, non-suspension-corrected steel mixte, with a lower-than-normal bottom bracket and slacker-than-normal seat tube, an extremely upright riding position,  weird-looking multi-position handlebars, friction thumb shifters, and a leather saddle, all wrapped in a muted paint scheme.

[cyclotourist]

I like how you categorized the Jones as a mixte... never thought about it it, but yeah, you're right!

[Tim Gavin]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 8:21 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

DO THESE TIRES MAKE MY BIKE LOOK SKINNY?

ord at the moment.   Can these 519 (19mm) Mavic rims [see pic. below] possibly give enough support for a tire this wide?  My gut says "no way," but I'd love it if someone could convince me otherwise.

Best case scenario, I'm afraid that I can't run optimally-low pressures.   (I had 25# and 30# today.  Does that sound right for a 200# rider?

On my 26er ('88 Schwinn KOM), I'm currently using even less-stiff, less-wide Mavic 317 rims (17 mm internal) with 60 mm Super Moto tires.  Before I got the new wheels, I was using the original Araya RM-20 rims (19 mm internal).  I've never had tire pressure issues or experienced the tire rolling, and I ride my KOM pretty aggressively over pretty much anything.  I love bunny hopping and jumping with that bike; it's amazingly playful for such a stout, heavy bike.

I use about those same pressures for mixed terrain riding, and I weigh 220 lbs.  I've lowered the front to 20 psi before when I'm doing solely dirt and gravel, and pumped it up to 30 psi when I'm riding only on pavement.

I experience the same sure traction on gravel with my Super Motos.  They're wide enough that the tire floats over the top and the tread can deform enough to get good grip. The only times I wish I had more tread is on loose dirt or wet dirt.  I have a set of Thunder Burts waiting to get swapped in for a ride like that.  I'd love to see the Thunder Burt in a 60 mm width.

Tim Gavin

Cedar Rapids, IA

[iamkeith]

Well, in my initial fit of enthusiasm, I guess mis-spoke a couple of things:

-  My rims are 517, not 519 - so same 17mm internal width (22mm external) as yours, Tim.   They sure seem narrow, but I'm glad to hear they've worked well for you.

-  The tires have now stretched quite a bit, so I don't  have quite the clearance I thought I did.   Still way more than adequate everywhere except at the rear seatstay brace, where they used a caliper brake-mount bridge and positioned it based on brake standards rather than matching the clearances at the fork crown or chainstay brace.  So I had to notch the fender to get adequate clearance at that location.

-  Speaking of fenders:  For other SKS/Esge fans, the P45 works MUCH better than the wider P65.  ( I happened to have both).  The rounded shape of the 45 follows the contour of the tire pretty well, even though it isn't quite as wide.   The squared-off sides of the P65, on the other hand,  actually rub the tire and have less clearance, unless you happen to have a ton of extra vertical space.

-  Even though I won't need one, I got curious and decided to check the news regarding the Ravn progress, over on the rCog forum.  Looks like that project might be dead.  Or at least its not going to be the uber-bike that it once was.  Lots of angry and disappointed people.   Seems they've been having trouble getting a manufacturer who is skilled enough to build with the flexy, raked fork blades, cantilever brakes, and precision tubing tolerances.  .   I really hope that doesn't mean that these tires will be available only as a fleeting thing.  As pointed out above, there probably aren't that many non-custom bikes out there that can even utilize them, other than these XO-1s, All Rounders and smaller Atlanti. 

[Rod Holland]

On Monday, October 12, 2015 at 12:05:05 PM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:

-  Even though I won't need one, I got curious and decided to check the news regarding the Ravn progress, over on the rCog forum.  Looks like that project might be dead.  Or at least its not going to be the uber-bike that it once was.  Lots of angry and disappointed people.   Seems they've been having trouble getting a manufacturer who is skilled enough to build with the flexy, raked fork blades, cantilever brakes, and precision tubing tolerances.  .   I really hope that doesn't mean that these tires will be available only as a fleeting thing.  As pointed out above, there probably aren't that many non-custom bikes out there that can even utilize them, other than these XO-1s, All Rounders and smaller Atlanti. 

So, the original Ravn spec went through a number of crowd-sourced metamorphoses, in the best Rawland tradition. A pretty attractive bicycle emerged from that: light, lively, and low-trail, with canti or V brakes, and, of course, clearance for the Rat Trap Pass tires, with fenders, available as a frameset or a complete. As you relate, Rawland's long-time Taiwanese fabrication vendor seems to have gotten stupid (probably through the loss of key personnel, the way it usually happens), and delivered a botched prototype that just wasn't going to be the bicycle folks were excited about. MEANWHILE... a different design, disc brakes based, was going very well, AND a new fabrication partnership and Rawland business model emerged. SO... the Ravn brand will now be applied to a different bicycle, which can still be called "enduro all road", said to be available in Spring 2016, as a complete bike only. This last detail caused a good deal of consternation on rCOG, both because the likely price tag is spendy (wouldn't cause a ripple in the as a Riv complete, of course), and because the typical Rawland owner actually likes building up bikes to their taste and/or spare parts bin. So the Ravn is still a viable egg, but will be a different bird when it hatches. See http://ravn.rawlandcycles.com/ for more on that, as it develops. Meanwhile, lots of folks are experimenting with the Rat Traps on a variety of bikes: vintage 26" mtbs, 26" touring bikes, disc bikes with the necessary clearance (e.g., the Elephant NFE), purpose-built customs. Here's mine, a Surly Trucker DeLuxe with Rat Trap Pass Extralights mounted under Planet Bike Cascadia ATB fenders; I've taken to calling it the Monster Trucker. Like it a lot...

It would be surprising if some frame builder or manufacturer didn't step into what looks like an emerging market.  Regardless of subsequent developments with the Ravn (and I wish Sean every success with it, btw), looks to me like the Rat Trap Pass is here to stay.

rod

[iamkeith]

Thanks for the background, Rod.  I assumed I was ignorant about some details, and probably leaving out others, and didn't take time to read all of the latest developments.   I had gotten pretty excited about the bike when it was first announced, and even thought hard about getting one - before determining that it would be too redundant for me to justify.   

I too hope it goes well for Sean, and that the new model is successful.   I like Rawland products a lot.  Honestly, they're one of the few brands I could ever feel good about spending my money on.  I also admire his approach and willingness to incorporate buyer input.  There's obviously a danger with that - of making some people feel slighted or ignored - and that's probably why some of those discussions seem so angry at the moment.  But not many would even be brave enough to take the risk.  

I also hope you're right that the RTP tire stays around - even if it doesn't quite lead to an emerging market.  A big part of me has always enjoyed being one of the weird, non-traditional riders, having "secret knowledge," and enjoying advantages that the most won't touch, because they look funny or because the pros don't use them.   Which is of course different than using something just because its unusual/non-trendy or just because its new. It wouldn't hurt my feelings if this stays somewhat peripheral.   Not unlike a recent email from Dave that lamented how its becoming harder for Rivendell to distinguish itself, now that many other builders are embracing steel, comfort, and versatile, all-rounder type designs.   Meanwhile, I've been piping off for a long time about how much I prefer 26" wheels, but most people dismiss me outright.

Your bike looks great!  I was trying to think, after I listed those models, what other existing "road" bikes could utilize these tires, and remembered the LHT.  The nice thing about those is that you have the option of using 26" tires with larger frames than with the Atlantis.  And the Elephant NFE is another good one, as is the Rawland dSogn - if someone could find one.  (I guess wheel versatility is one definite advantage of the Ravn going to discs!)

And now, I can't help wondering if Rivendell would consider doing a bigger 26" wheel bike again.  I know Grant has resisted and tried to "leave it in the past," but its not like he'd have to be apologetic about changing his mind - given the fact that he invented the format in the first place.  There would probably have to be a stiffer, more durable version of the RTP tire though.

On Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 7:32:47 AM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:

[iamkeith]

What rims are you using, by the way? 

 Here's mine, a Surly Trucker DeLuxe with Rat Trap Pass Extralights mounted under Planet Bike Cascadia ATB fenders; I've taken to calling it the Monster Trucker. Like it a lot...

rod

[Rod Holland]

Sun Rhyno Lite rims (27.5mm width, if memory serves), on Chris King hubs.

rod

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Thansk for the 411 on that, Rod!

I'm liking the looks of the Ulv as well: http://ravn.rawlandcycles.com/#ulv