Extreme long johns...

[Deacon Patrick]

Fishnet. Wiggy’s (same company in Colorado that does Riv’s sleeping bag.

http://www.wiggys.com/clothing-outerwear/fishnet-long-underwear/

I just did this test of the top:

It was newly washed, along with a HEAVY flannel cotton shirt, just wrung out and still dripping wet. Put on my ventile shell, rode to WP in 10˚F, with 40 mph winds on the descent. Not warm, but I wasn’t colder at any point on the ride than when I first left the house.

My head and hands with my yet to be fortified boiled wool hat and gloves were chilly on the descent. 

THAT’S impressive longjohning! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

www.OurHolyConception.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[Patrick Moore]

Now that's a dedication to real world testing! 

Thanks for this information. I don't experience your cold, but I do want to look for some fishnet base layers.

BTW, 40*F, ~40% humidity, windy, no radiant heat because the sun was behind the clouds (the radiant heat of the suh at high altitudes is very striking): Italian shirt-weight merino crew top, courtesy of GW, under that heavy, Ragg Woolywarm sweater jersey. Perfect.

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[Patrick Moore]

Sheesh! Do a search for fishnet underwear and you get the party girls.

Any less expensive sources for non-cotton fishnet t-shirts? Either LS or SS is fine.

And the party boys too. But would this work? Not lewd exactly, but tasteless; still, the question ...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fashion-Brand-Grid-Fishnet-Men-Sexy-Fitness-Transparent-T-shirts-Gay-Funny-Mesh-Cut-outs-Tess/32607058112.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.16.Ltpygg

[Deacon Patrick]

Ha! Never dawned on me to search fishnet underwear. Sorry about that. The shirt is $38 shipped. And it is thicker (creating more air pocket depth) than the muscle shirt you  link to. Would it work? Likely, but not as well.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 6:33:01 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Sheesh! Do a search for fishnet underwear and you get the party girls.

Any less expensive sources for non-cotton fishnet t-shirts? Either LS or SS is fine.

And the party boys too. But would this work? Not lewd exactly, but tasteless; still, the question ...

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fashion-Brand-Grid-Fishnet-Men-Sexy-Fitness-Transparent-T-shirts-Gay-Funny-Mesh-Cut-outs-Tess/32607058112.html?spm=2114.40010308.4.16.Ltpygg

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Now that's a dedication to real world testing! 

Thanks for this information. I don't experience your cold, but I do want to look for some fishnet base layers.

BTW, 40*F, ~40% humidity, windy, no radiant heat because the sun was behind the clouds (the radiant heat of the suh at high altitudes is very striking): Italian shirt-weight merino crew top, courtesy of GW, under that heavy, Ragg Woolywarm sweater jersey. Perfect.

On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

Fishnet. Wiggy’s (same company in Colorado that does Riv’s sleeping bag.

http://www.wiggys.com/clothing-outerwear/fishnet-long-underwear/

I just did this test of the top:

It was newly washed, along with a HEAVY flannel cotton shirt, just wrung out and still dripping wet. Put on my ventile shell, rode to WP in 10˚F, with 40 mph winds on the descent. Not warm, but I wasn’t colder at any point on the ride than when I first left the house.

My head and hands with my yet to be fortified boiled wool hat and gloves were chilly on the descent. 

THAT’S impressive longjohning! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

www.OurHolyConception.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, and no need to apologize. I thought it was funny.

Now the question is: do I have the pecs to wear that shirt?

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[Deacon Patrick]

You realize the whole point is to wear a(t least one) shirt over it? Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[GAJett]

I have used fishnet for over 45 years, and some of my current inventory dates to that time.  NOTHING compares to the flexibility of fishnet as a base layer.  Large air pockets create a very warm layer next to the skin, especially if the overlying layer fits closely.  Opening the outer layer allows you to dump warm air very quickly if you overheat, and this is the one outdoor garment where I PREFER COTTON!

Why cotton? Geez, everyone knows "cotton kills" the weather turns cold!  But in this case so very little of the fishnet contacts your skin that the conductive heat loss typical of a moist cotton fabric simply does not apply.  And I find it more comfortable than the nylon or poly fishnets.

Many of my remaining fishnet tops were sourced from Eddie Bauer, when they still sold outdoor gear.  The bottoms died a decade ago when the flat fabric between the thighs gave up completely. I have purchased "womens" fishnet tops suitable for a base layer, but they tend to be too short in the torso.

I am not a fan of the Wiggy's product, based on what I have seen.  Nylon fabric, and so many apparent areas of flat fabric (e.g., over the knees) that would provide no insulating benefit just turn me off.  I have looked for alternate sources, finding one in Norway, but my e-mails went unanswered.

Fishnet longies simply ROCK. They beat standard high-tech long undies by a mile, and the typical mass market items by 10.  If anyone has sources in addition to Wiggy's I would REALLY like to know.
Cheers!

[Patrick Moore]

So, cotton works well? Good to know, since cotton fishnet seems to be readily available. 

This? https://www.amazon.com/Crystal-Cotton-String-Fishnet-T-Shirt/dp/B00ZIAT82S

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/06/2016 08:43 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote:
> Ha! Never dawned on me to search fishnet underwear.

Yeah, you find all kinds of stimulating, exciting pictures when you do
that...

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/06/2016 08:32 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Sheesh! Do a search for fishnet underwear and you get the party girls.

guys too

[Deacon Patrick]

Cotton would be lovely! Yes, I didn't get the bottoms from Wiggy's for that very reason, but if anyone finds a source of fishnet pants, especially cotton, please pass it along!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Mojo]

I have used Brynje brand fishnet for many (more than 20?) years. Works great for xc skiing. I use a short sleeve top and knicker bottoms. It's a Norwegian company instead of Colorado though, and the prices reflect that.
http://www.brynje-shop.com/index.html?language=en

[GAJett]

Patrick, Mojo,
Thanks for the links!
Now if we could find a less expensive source than Brynje's for bottoms, as Deacon would also like, that would be even better.
Cheers

[Deacon Patrick]

Rhodri at http://www.nordiclife.co.uk is the US importer of Brynje via bloody England. He's very helpful via chat though. They have merino net.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 5:19:05 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Bill Gibson]

Fishnet works well, cotton is all I have used, but it chafes under a pack or belt. 

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Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[MannyAcosta]

Been telling Grant to do a must oneise for a while...

http://m.llbean.com/category.html?skCatId=47356&productId=821716&attrValue_0=Red&pla1=0&mr:trackingCode=34E39902-BFE7-E511-80ED-00505694403D&mr:referralID=NA&mr:device=m&mr:adType=pla_with_promotiononline&qs=3125008_google&cvosrc=cse.google.0DBJ740004&cvo_crid=121975495280&lsft=qs:3125008_google%2Cproduct:0DBJ740004%2Ccvosrc:cse.google.0DBJ740004%2Ccvo_crid:121975495280&gclid=CjwKEAiAg5_CBRDo4o6e4o3NtG0SJAB-IatY5nG0uBsAzFn_aEirP9yBd0Q5SAzOIProX3XeIGr8WhoC3WXw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&SS=B&isRedirect=true#47356

best thing I've found so far. the wife and I have matching "fancy" oneise. my red one is on camping duty

[Deacon Patrick]

Learning curve of fishnet long johns follow-up:

-- Wiggy's nylon is stunningly effective and unfortunately rough. Mojo's Brynje merino version will soon be swimming the Atlantic and riding the burro my way. I asked Rhodri at http://www.nordiclife.co.uk about their synthetic fabric and he said it would 1) last a bit longer and 2) stink up within a day or two. Merino it is! Grin.

I continue to test in in these variable conditions we are having, from warm (43˚F today) to cold (-2˚F is as low as I've gone so far this year). Here's what I've learned so far with the Wiggy's nylon fishnet top:

-- 0˚F: fishnet, cotton flannel, Ventile Cotton Analogy jacket was perfect climbing the pass, and chilly descending the pass. Ideally I need to put on another insulative layer before going down hill. But that is stunningly little to wear at 0˚F vs. close knit base layer.

-- 25˚F, 10-20 mph wind up the pass: same as above, less the jacket climbing. Donning the jacket before heading down was perfect. Easy to underestimate the extremity layers needed, as I took too light a hat and gloves for the windchilled descent (5˚F with windchill).

There seems a different skill/knowledge set for wearing these, as ventilation is the key to temp regulation and moisture management. I'm still trying to figure that all out. The idea is the be slightly cool when working via ventilating, then zip up/add insulation/windblocking when not working and/or facing increased winds.

So far, loving the new system and am staying warmer more easily despite my bumbling learning curve! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 5:19:05 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I just read that the Inuit would forego base layers in all but the most horrendously cold weather, because it tended otherwise to trap moisture. Of course, their outer garments were in respect of heat management, unsurpassed.

Patrick: you said: 0F: mesh, cotton flannel, Ventile jacket climbing = perfect. Then you said: -25F: mesh, cotton flannel, windy, no jacket climbing????

You know the old roadie trick: stuff a used Gazzetto della Sport under your jersey for the descent. 

Patrick Moore, whose rides haven't dropped below 28*F this season, and that very briefly, so what do I know?

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[Deacon Patrick]

That was a leading double-dash bullet ahead of each bullet item, so not -25˚F, but -- 25˚F. Sorry for the confusion.

Newspaper? Do they still print those? Grin. Unless you meant to stuff my iPhone in my jersey? Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

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[Tim Gavin]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

You know the old roadie trick: stuff a used Gazzetto della Sport under your jersey for the descent. 

Patrick Moore, 

In that spirit, my friend uses a square of mylar metallic fabric (as seen in shiny novelty balloons and survival blankets) in between his layers to shield his chest.

I wear a wind-blocking vest over lots of wool layers when riding in the cold.  And I carry a survival blanket and hand warmers in my bag in case I have a flat or mechanical problem while out in the cold.

My current favorite base layer is some aramid long johns I got when I flew in the Air Force in South Dakota.  They offer are warm and wick sweat well.  If I wear merino next to my skin, it holds too much sweat and chills my core.  This is for sometimes-aggressive riding on a fat bike in temps down to about 10 F.

[Patrick Moore]

I once meant to create a dickey out of something like Tyvek, but ended up with a couple cut from old merino turtlenecks; very useful for those in between days, where a merino base layer plus an outer wool layer is not quite enough. I find I need neck protection in cold weather, otherwise I quickly get a sore throat and thence a cold, and those dickeys, or a cut-down Royal Stuart scarf, are very nice. One benefit from these is that they are very easily removed when the temps climb, as they do rapidly and widely here in the high desert -- it's not unusual to start the morning in the 20s and top out in the 60s.

But for wind blocking, I found a very lightweight L Garneau vest, about 30% mesh, at half price at a LBS a couple of years ago, and this, with its high collar, is also a very nice supplement to a wool base layer on warmer but not quite warm enough days; it also has the statutory rear pockets, the absence of which makes life so miserable.

Today, leaving the house, 45*F, and partly cloudy (believe me, at 5K feet, the radiation of even the winter sun makes a huge difference), a merino ls jersey under a light ls Road Holland merino + plastic jersey with full zip that I use as a very light jacket, and with high zip neck, was just right. Getting home, 50*f and the combo was just getting  a wee bit warm after I was fully warmed up.

Back when I did serious commuting mileage, often leaving the house at 20*F or so, I found that 3 layers of wool, or perhaps 2 with a gilet, kept me warm but also kept me free of sweat. OTOH, before I wised up, I'd ride ~13 miles into work in just 2 layers, a thickish Kucharik ls jersey under a Cannondale nylon riding jacket, and arrive soaked in sweat. Aggressive (if not necessarily fast) riding. But layers of wool, including the base layer -- not at all.

One project now on my long list of projects to procrastinate about, is to get an inexpensive mesh undershirt and see what it does.

[Les Lammers]

Dear Deacon,

U B crazy. :-) Me? I'm I SW Florida near the Everglades. Under 70 degrees I'm in sweats.

[Deacon Patrick]

Update: 

 Brynje fishnet merino wool longjohns arrived yesterday and I got to test them out on my bike/run today. They are at least as warm as Wiggys.

There is no getting away from the nylon feel of Wiggys. I feel like I'm with Bret Bear self stranded on the Alaska coast and we've found fishnet washed ashore and with only the shirts on our backs to keep us warm we make a fishnet underlayer to save us.

Brynje merino wool are butter soft, with a finer netting. Never felt it on. It cant be as hearty as nylon or synthetic -- time will tell how long they last. But they are under garments, and need to have a shirt over them at the least. Wearing in winter or bikepacking this are comfy and very warm.

I keep fine tuning the "ventilate" to dump heat BEFORE I sweat. The good news is even when I do sweat and my cotton overshirt gets wet, I stay warm. This really is a wonderful and flexible system. I love it!

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 5:19:05 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Ron Mc]

my hands-down favorite cold weather merino wool base layer is Minus33. Midweight.  

[Deacon Patrick]

Merino wool fishnet long john update:

First longer coldish weather ride with the merino wool fishnet top (I don't use the bottoms until around zero). 22˚F starting out, dropping to 10˚F on top with 30mph winds, then warming up to 32˚ F dropping back to home. I continue to be amazed by this system and the dry warmth it allows. Fishnet long johns really are a completely different category and require a completely different method of managing warmth. They give an amazing range of temperature flexibility with far less clothing brought along.

With regular tight-knit long johns they get sopping wet at aerobic activity levels. When climbing, there just isn't airflow to keep them dry unless there happens to be a significant wind (at which point it's pretty cold on the skin, regardless of wool or cotton). It's easy enough to stay warm when wet AND active. Stop? OR head downhill? Or encounter significant winds? Danger zone quickly sets in.

Fishnet changes this by allowing vapor to pass through the cotton flannel shirt (could be any kind of shirt). The air gaps on the skin mean sweat is a vapor instead of liquid, and makes it easy for it to escape with ventilation. Still gets a bit wet, but that too is held off the skin, so I stay warm until it evaporates. The harder I work and/or the warmer it is, the more I increase ventilation (include untucking my shirt so movement acts as a billows promoting air flow.

The trick is to not get warm when aerobic. Stay slightly cool. Then, when stopping or heading down hill, don the breathable ventile windproof waterproof shell and stay warm, and there's no wet to cool me off.

I'm curious to see how just the fishnet top with a non-cinched down ventile jacket (for max air flow) works in rain at lower temps (32˚F to 50˚F), especially multi-day backpacking. That scenario is always challenging and is the second most challenging danger zone (after extreme cold below zero). Anyone have experience with this?

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 5:19:05 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[lum gim fong]

Marino layers work for me down to 27°. That's the coldest I've ever ridden. After about 20 miles my thighs, thigh tendon and kneecaps start complaining from the wintry blasts.
Thigh muscles get jumpy/tendons hurt/knee caps ache.
This year I might try to use wool tights with the Bouré tight over top of that and see if that solves my leg knee issues in the cold.