Clementine Climbs a Mountain

[Mark in Beacon]

More photos here:
https://goo.gl/photos/ZyGgMw2E4UyfmphV6

With all the talk of pedal strike and long chainstays and off road riding, as threatened, I took my Clementine up our little mountain to see how it would make out. To get the full 1,500 feet of elevation, I started down at the Hudson River, stopping by the farmers market before heading along river and creek trails, then about a mile or so of back roads before hitting the real climbing starting at Union and then East Main, which runs straight up to the access road (official vehicles only). It's been a few years since I climbed it on a bicycle, which is really the only time I go up via this road, which is not as scenic as some of the other trails. You can see from the photos that there is a big erosion problem--it's certainly a lot worse than the last time I climbed it. Last month a truck servicing the towers went off the road and fell 65 feet into a small creek.

The Clementine, as expected with the long chain stays, had minimal rear tire slippage, even in the loosest, steepest sections of the climb. The bottom bracket on this bike is definitely the lowest of all my bikes, but despite riding on severe cambers and over numerous rocks, both stationary/buried and loose/surface, pedal strike occurred only once, a glancing blow at that. I did not "clean" the climb, putting down 3 or 4 times, and walking a total of a hundred feet or less. But a more skilled rider would likely not have had any issues. As a city dweller from 1984 to 2000, with no car to escape, I missed the entire mountain biking thing. (I did do one NORBA race, and I got an early Kestrel mt. bike as payment for an ad in my magazine, I guess some time around 1992, but rarely rode it.)

The front end had a tendency to over steer slightly, but that may have been due in part to the fact that I had a few pounds in the front, nothing much in the panniers, and when going slowly uphill and trying to avoid large rocks or gravel wash, I assume I am tensing my upper body a bit when trying to make a "save", all of which contribute to a front with a mind of its own. Also, due to the shifter being blocked by the bullmoose bars, I was locked out of my lowest gear in the back, a permanent condition until I switch out the shifters. Still, I very rarely felt the imperative to stand, even on big pitches.

Going back down (there are other trails down, but they almost require full suspension--I did it once on a rigid Trek 990, never again) was not as bad as I was expecting--no forearm pump or anything like that. Of course I kept the speed at "56-year-old with a young kid" but even so, the bike handled nicely, even when I sent it over runs of softball-sized rocks.

Most of the bike is the stock complete build, except for the saddle, pedals, and shifters. The front tire is the stock Kenda Kwick, the rear, due to a Riv packing mishap involving a box cutter, is a Big Ben.

For some, this may be run-of-the-mill terrain, but for me, this is certainly beyond what I would ask the bike to do 99 percent of the time. While I suspect the low pedal position might require some caution on rough trails, a combination of rudimentary skill and probably a little luck kept me clear. All in all, the Clementine kept its composure and handled the challenge with aplomb. I am redoing a bottom bracket on my Miyata Ridge Runner and putting on some Thunder Burts; once that actually happens I'll take it up for a comparison run.

https://goo.gl/photos/ZyGgMw2E4UyfmphV6

[masmojo]

The thing with the pedal strike, if you are aware of it, it's probably no big deal. I was surprised the first couple times it happened merely, because I have had so few bikes that had any issues with it at all. Since then I've only had it happen in odd circumstances, where other things were going on and pedal strike was the last of my concerns.
Overall I am pleased with the Clementine off road, as long as the terrain is not technical it's lovely, as soon as things get the slightest bit sketchy, the olé girl kinda gives up though. Loose gravel is particularly annoying. On a positive note I have no real expectations along these lines so it's merely an observation and not a condemnation.

[Mark in Beacon]

I agree. In that sense probably a little like toe overlap. On bikes that have it, once your body is aware, it happens less. I imagine some people with certain 650b conversions deal with this phenomena. And in fact, the higher bb drop on the Clems is a feature, not a bug, an adjustment of the old mountain bikes with overly high bottom brackets for town and (non-super gnarly) trail. Even combined with the very long chain stays, which possibly make it more pronounced, it's not an issue for me (but it's good to have the info in my riding brain).

[RichS]

Mark,

Your good looking Clementine seems right at home in the wild. Visually more appealing than the neutral pics Riv uses on its website. 

Thanks for the report.

Best,

Richard

[Scott McLain]

I agree with Rich.  The Clementine looks much cooler loaded up with stuff.  Thanks for sharing your experience and the pics!

Scott

[masmojo]

Yes, I like your Clementine, the dark colors really make'em look a bit more masculine.
Regarding the wheel base/chain stays/ bottom braket drop & pedal strike. I am not the only one whose noticed it so I do hope they address it at some point. Things are rarely perfect right out of the gate, so some fine tuning seems prudent/expected. Whether it be shorter stays, slightly less BB drop or preferably in my mind, a combination of the two.

[Deacon Patrick]

Excellent! Yes, I've found I really like the lower (realitively) BB of my Hunq for the overall stability, and that proper technique goes a long way to making it a near-non-issue. I know my daughters love their Clementines' stability both climbing and descending (much more confidence descending and much higher speed).

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

I do not think Grant will alter the chainstay length or BB drop. Clems are expected to be able to traverse dirt trails - as is true of every Riv 'cept maybe Roadeo - but its primary role is as a general use 'just a bike' bike. If he fiddles with it to make it better at singletrack, it won't be what it was supposed to be anymore.

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Great post (and photos), Mark -- of all the Clem(entine) rides I've read about in reviews, I think your ascent up Beacon Mountain was the most demanding of the lot. It really speaks to the versatility of those bikes when they're equally at home commuting, grocery getting, or trail riding.

Can you tell us more about how you fared with those Bosco Bullmoose bars on the descent? I would imagine that I would be trying hard not to have my hands slip forward with that extreme sweep back.

Bob E

[Mark in Beacon]

Joe, that is my thought, too. I am by no means a bicycle designer, but you don't need to be to understand that those particular parameters are a large part of what makes a Clem a Clem. You give up a certain nimbleness on a trail perhaps, but you gain that luxurious, super fun handling, plenty enough of responsiveness, and a machine up for any task a non-specific  bike  (as opposed to downhill, professional racing, fat bikes, etc. )should be expected to handle. It really is a bike to Just Ride.

[Mark in Beacon]

The Bosco Bulls were fantastic on the descent--much more so than other bars, including drops set kind of high and the straight bars on a Trek 990, which made me feel like I could be pitched over, and also left me with "pumped" forearm muscles--ouchy.

You can see the bars on the early 90s Trek are pretty much level with the seat, but the reach and geometry still had me leaning on them too much during descending. (My understanding is that current mountain bike geos are different and this is not as much of a factor.) Based on this I was slightly dreading the return trip down. But it was the easiest time I've ever had in that direction on rough trail. The Boscos were completely natural and neutral and I felt totally in control and comfortable going with gravity. Whoo-hoo, as they say!

 I thought maybe I would feel cramped on the steeper parts heading up, but not at all. As far as hands slipping, the only slipping was from a prodigious amount of sweat on the way up--those plastic grips can get schuper schweaty--way more that riding the naked noodles on my Kuwahara. But even there, the pointer finger hooked around the brake bracket solves that issue!

I agree, Bob. As with most Rivendell bicycles, the Clem(entine) is an all around rider--despite its more cruiser-y, convivial appearance.

Thanks to all for reading and checking out the photos.

[masmojo]

Well, concerning fine tuning the Clems I just feel like it's inevitable, maybe not now, but most likely in the future. The problems with popping over obstacles & pedal strike are definite real "things" mentioned & identified independently by several people.
The Clem really has the potential to be Rivendells best seller (if it's not already) in order to solidify it's appeal some fine tuning is not only desirable, but prudent to solidify Clem sales & popularity in the future.
I would really doubt that the Atlantis has remained static over its long life span, it has certainly evolved. Likewise the Clems need to evolve to stay relevant.

[Deacon Patrick]

masmojo, your passion for Rivendell is wonderful, but your criticism is confusing a simpleton like me. Your critique of Grant and Co. and the Clem/entine is that they should keep doing what they've always done? I suspect they will, though perhaps not in the direction you hope. After all, Grant has a tendency to buck the experts who understand bicycle trends, and eventually, quietly, set the trends himself.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

I agree, Patrick. RBW is not going to react to long chainstays and low BBs they designed by redesigning them. There's a billion alternatives out there if people don't want these features. I like my LongLow Clem and Joe, and wouldn't be happy to see the benefits exclusive to those frames designed out.

[masmojo]

Well, it should not be confusing; to be sure as much as I admire Grant, it would be wrong to sit back, put him & Rivendell on a pedestal and prostrate myself in front of him. The people on this forum can be a bit gushy, but without (construtive) criticism where are you!?
I am not really talking about making the Clems any less Clemish, merely accentuating the positive & eliminating most of the negative. If there is an issue, but we minimize it as if it doesn't exist, who does that serve? Nobody really!
I am not talking about making the Clems short chain stay bikes, merely not quite so long! ;-)
The Clems were designed on a clean sheet of paper and were sort of an experiment, with that in mind it makes sense that the first generation wouldn't be perfect. They never are!

[Eric Daume]

I would say the Clem are really a 2nd gen product. The first long chainstay bike was the Cheviot, maybe 19" chainstays (?), while the bigger models Clem come in around 21" (? again). So, it seems Grant likes what he had in the Cheviut, but wanted MORE!

And pretty much all Riv models have ~80mm of bottom bracket drop for 700c models. Don't see that changing.

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[David Banzer]

There are pros & cons to every bike, and the pros for one person could be cons for another.
I love my Clem because it works wonderfully for me - I don't love it just because it's a Rivendell designed by Grant.
It fits my needs. That's all that matters to me.
David
Chicago

[Joe Bernard]

The inference that we "prostrate in front of Grant" is not necessary. This is a Riv forum for people who like those bicycles and that company. If I want a change from my Clem or Appaloosa, I ride something else. My Dahon folder and Bobbin mini velo have very short stays.

[Deacon Patrick]

Excellent point, Eric. And arguably, any bike Grant produces incorporates his ever growing expertise and none (even the small run, "Using up old fork" frames) is a clean slate design. Chain stay length is a big tweak, but it is a tweak. But the mystery bike, Cheviot, and playing with Appaloosa came before Clem/entine, so it's got at least 3-4 generations of experience with longer chain stays behind it.

[Mark in Beacon]

Not wanting to extend this discussion too much,  it's not really a matter of positive vs. negative, add some this, subtract some that, fiddling with things, back and forth, until...Voila! The Perfect Bicycle Is Created. Everybody please go home, the work is done. Now that would be putting someone on a pedestal, thinking they could pull that off. I also don't think there has been any pretending anything doesn't exist. But unless a bicycle comes off the line with a design that has operational or safety issues, as opposed to what some might view as design trade-offs, others as the main features of the machine in question, I'm not sure this forum is the place to consistently go on about geometry changes, ie, "constructive criticism." No need to prostrate yourself, but hey, on the other hand, you've mentioned it a number of times at this point. And maybe there will be some tweaks in the future, who knows. Right now, A Clem is a Clem is a Clem(entine). How sweet it is! (Hope that's not too gushy.)

Next up: Clementine Hops a Curb!

[masmojo]

Of course nothing in bicycles is a totally clean sheet, obviously they've been making them forever. Much of what I said was figurative, not sure why everything here is so literal?
Personally, if I was building bikes this sort of feedback is precisely the type of thing that I would be looking for. A bunch of people sitting around saying how great everything is seems a bit disingenuous.

[Joe Bernard]

I'm going to say again that your implication that we're some sort of cult afraid to criticize The Master is a bit much. The point I've made several times is that the Clem and Appaloosa frames were specifically designed for the benefits of long stays and low BBs, the latter of which Grant has been pushing since the first Rivendell. If you don't want those frames, buy a different one. Continuing to beat the drum that the main things about these frames that makes them what they are needs "refining"...is kinda ridiculous.

[Mark in Beacon]

You've lost me. What part of recommending to the designer ad nauseam that he lower the bottom bracket drop and shorten the chain stays on a particular model is figurative, not literal? Personal experience is great. You made an interesting point about the relationship between bb height and chain stay length and how it might affect frequency of pedal strike.

RBW Owners Bunch is not exactly a fan club, but it's also not a group redesign project. The reason you think that this sort of feedback is precisely the type of thing you would be looking for if you were building bikes is because, you don't build bikes. If Grant took every opinion or bit of feedback appearing here, and made bicycles based on that, you'd get...a SpeGiarek, complete with disc brakes. Or more likely, nothing. Obviously he works with rider feedback on his bicycles, but everyone with an opinion on the internet? Probably not as much when it comes to technical details like these.

Why Richard Sachs builds his road bicycles with the exact same 8cm bb drop as the 700c Clems (but with 25-28mm tires, rather than 50+, which should make up for the longer stays). His explanation also on why he doesn't technically do custom frames:
http://www.richardsachs.com/site/2012/01/16/my-last-custom-made-frame/

It's not like Grant hasn't thought of these things. From an online forum deep in the internet undergrowth:

Re: How much is too much bb drop?

When I was building for Rivendell, Grant wanted to experiment with how low we could go. I built some frames with increasingly lower bb's. Crank length is one consideration but it's less critical than one might think. The bigger consideration is the angle between the seat tube and chain stays. With a laid back seat tube angle like 72 and more than 80mm (say 85+) of bb drop, the front der doesn't work effectively and sometimes the cage hits the chain stays. I like building road bikes around 80mm of bb drop but won't go lower than that. Curt Goodrich

Okay, that's it from me on the bb and cs of Clems! But a video of a Clem curb hop, coming this way!!

[Joe Bernard]

Mark, your explanation is why you can't buy a true custom from Rivendell. A Riv custom is built to your size and riding preferences, as interpreted through GP's design philosophy, to create a bike that looks and rides like a Rivendell. There are people you can pay that will build a bike practically any way you ask. Grant ain't that guy.

[Jim D Massachusetts]

I cannot wait to see the Clem hop.                Jim D                     Massachusetts