New Hunqapillar frame geometry

[Jim S.]

Hi all,

I saw on the Blug today that AHH, Atlantis, and Hunqapillar are getting longer in 2016. I had been thinking about buying a Hunqapillar. But now I'm wondering whether a longer, 2016 Hunqapillar is worth waiting for? Does anyone have any thoughts about the effect that the longer frame will have on the ride?

[Matthew J]

Longer frames done right seem to have a more plush and stable ride.  Good for most riding.  Maybe not optimal for fast twisty stretches,

Also noticed Hilsen will be available with braze on center pull option.  Braze on RacerMs and the Hilsen sound like a marriage made in heaven, IMO.

[Zach Duval]

Which is to say, in my view, it is no longer as well suited as a MTB/tourer, and leads to greater overlap with others in the Riv line-up.

I'd set a Hunq as my dream mountain tourer, and had hoped to save for one, but I don't see a longer bike as an improvement. With the changes proposed in the Blug, it seems like things are getting even harder to differentiate between the Atlantis, Hunq, and Appa.

[drew]

I tend to agree. The long bike idea seems fine. I'm neither for or against it. I've not yet heard anyone claim revolutionary ride results, so I don't see it as such an immense improvement that all bikes must be long now. I do think the crossover is becoming redundant. Clem, joe, hunq and Atlantis will now be long tourish bikes capable of rough stuff. That's 4 out of 8 with basically the same purpose.
I have a hunqapillar, and when I read that I was happy that I bought it when I did. I cannot imagine a better or more comfortable bike to be loaded or ridden over bouncy stuff. Also, I don't really want 650b on my 54cm frame.
Anyway, I wouldn't wait, but I also wouldn't rush to buy it now. I'm sure the next incarnation will be just fine too

[sameness]

The Roadeo will also have clearance for 55s and three top tubes.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Joe Bunik]

Post of the Day Award goes to Jeff!!!
=- Joe Bunik
Nut Creek CA

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

[Bill Lindsay]

Remember all those complaining cyclists you hear after every century? 

"Dang!  My bike has too long a chainstay! I would have had FUN if my wheelbase was shorter"
"Darn it!  I could have finished faster if my bike was a little less stable and wasn't so darned comfortable!!"

Remember all those cyclotourists you met on the Great Plains?

"My bike has way too much heel clearance!  I NEVER kick my rear panniers!  It sucks!"

Me neither

Bill tongue-in-cheek Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Garth]

    Worth waiting for ?  Not unless you really wanted a longer stay version .  Ask yourself if you'll travel/commute with it , as super long stays present a whole host of issues with car/bus racks and air/ground shipping containers and boxes.

    I'll only say that I sure am glad I have a 60cm Bombadil with a already long wheelbase of "only" 45 inches !  Would a even longer one be "better" ?  Of course not, just different.  No frame is gonna be any better with longer stays, just different. Much like the double TT , it's just differnet.

  I also will not be suprised when Riv goes to selling all completes only except custom frames, yeah .... one day it will just happen, like all the changes. Get your standalone frames while they are here !

[Jeremy Till]

All I can say is that I'm definitely in the pro-long chainstay camp.  I think it generally reflects the evolution of the comfortable riding position ethos that Grant has always espoused.  Recently, this has meant Rivendell selling more and more of their bikes with upright handlebars.  Longer wheelbases (esp. longer chainstays) help optimize handling with an upright riding position.  

I think my Xtracycle (800mm+ chainstays!!!) is one of the best handling bikes I own.  A long chainstayed/top tubed Homer with canti posts and a kickstand plate may just be my dream bike.  

[Shoji Takahashi]

I wonder if Riv will start marketing them as mid-tail/cargo bike. If there was a strong rack (Nitto or otherwise) that provided high load rating to hold a child with stoker bars... that reasoning might sway my wife on why I need another bike.

I also wonder whether the top tube length will get longer-- i.e., will these be the same bike(s) with longer chain stays, or will these be designed as the Appaloosa for upright bars? 

shoji

[RJM]

dd

Well, I can't say I'd be in the market for a longer version of the Hunq or Atlantis. They may be much better at touring with longer stays....but I'm just not in the market for a touring bike after buying an Atlantis recently.

What I do want is a Rivendell mountain bike made to ride the singletrack around me...and that would ideally have short stays, higher bottom bracket, a good slack head tube angle. I can deal with canti bosses instead of disc brakes and I love steel, and threaded headsets work fine, and my current two Rivs ride great and are excellent for me...but I'm in the market for a second mountain bike. And not a bike to ride wide fire roads like a gravel grinder, but a bike to shred single track with.  It would make me happy to have a Riv to do that on.

But I digress....

Longer stays will probably be more stable for the touring bikes and will be better for those frames. A Hunqapillar appealed to me because of it's ability on trails but if it gets longer than that aspect is diminished. I'm worried every bike in the Riv lineup is going to be slight variations of the same theme, which doesn't interest me. I like having bikes set up for different types of riding so I don't really have the money or the room to have two of the same bike that does the same kind of riding.

[iamkeith]

Holly Molly.  Just for the sake of voicing the counterpoint of a more enthusiastic reaction:  This could be the best Rivendell news in years!  If not EVER.

-  In terms of people claiming revolutionary results from longer stays, I think it HAS happened.  Remember when Keven - the resident race god at RBWHQ got his mystery bike?  He immediately sold his cross bike and everything else mainstream, and became evangelizer #1 for long bikes!   But it doesn't stop there.  The only bike designer who I respect as much as Grant, who has had as significant of an impact on modern bike design, and who made my one bike I love more than my All Rounder is Jeff Jones.   He's pretty much moved all of his development and promotional energy to his long bike, the Plus!  He's so enamored with it and wants it to reach as many people as possible,  that he's already expanded the line to include three sizes a year after first offering it.  Which is two sizes more than he was willing to do with his short-stay model!

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/staff3.htm

-  Speaking of which, the notion that a long bike can't be can't be a capable offroad machine is nonsense.  If you believe otherwise, you really need to watch some of these:  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DJXOsP1E2Y

https://youtu.be/z3w8dJFG8x8

- On a related note:  longer chainstays means it's easier to make room for fatter tires.   I know I'm an outlyer and too often vocal about this, but lack of tire clearance is one of my biggest frustrations with Rivendell bikes.   Which is ironic in the big picture, isn't it?

-  On the subject of too much functional overlap:  Rivendell's model line has always had a lot of overlap.  Remember when you could choose between an Atlantis, a Homer, a Rambouillet and a Roadeo?   The most significant  differences were simply tire clearance and tubing thickness.  I actually think there's a lot more variety nowadays. Check out the diagrams I recently posted in my "geometry comparison" thread.  Current offerings can be summarized right now as:  Clem = very long front/very long rear;   Hunq = long front / short rear;  Appaloosa II = short front / long rear;  Atlantis = short front / short rear.   I think there's probably room to lengthen things to varying degrees without eliminating the variety, especially when you add in the tubing and clearance differences. 

- The BEST part of this news though, if I read it correctly, is that some bikes - like the Hunq. -  may now be offered in the OTHER sizes?!!!!!!   I assume the upper-end models - the Homer and Atlantis - will still be offered in smaller size increments that allow you to get a bike that fits just perfectly - which is, to me, one of the main reasons for buying a Rivendell.  With the advent of the "expanded sizing" though, it hasn't worked this way with all models.  Depending on who you were, you either got a bike that happened to fit perfectly, could "make due" with one of the stock sizes but with some minor-but-less-than-ideal compromises in stem and seatpost extensions, or didn't really fit any of the sizes no matter what.   I most often fell into the later camp.   But the idea of a 56 Hunq!?  Be still, my heart!  Hopefully it still has 700c wheels.  And maybe eliminates the diagatube, or uses a twin top tube?!  

As someone who often didn't fit the frames, I definitely agree that, if one of the current bikes fits you, you should strongly consider buying one while you can!

[Garth]

    You know how it goes with a new toy , all others get relegated/discarded/sold/trashed/stored/given away etc. etc ....   It by no means makes the former "toy" obsolete in any way .  Funny, all those bikes(and anything) from the 70's/80's/whatever-year-model-make and such that were relegated/discarded/sold/trashed/given away etc. etc .....and lo and behold . . .  . . XX years later they are highly sought after and coveted again.  Change change change but what is True never changes.


   And yes .... get the frames you love soon, as again, one day they may complete bikes only , except customs.

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 11:37:33 AM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:

Holly Molly.  Just for the sake of voicing the counterpoint of a more enthusiastic reaction:  This could be the best Rivendell news in years!  If not EVER.

-  In terms of people claiming revolutionary results from longer stays, I think it HAS happened.  Remember when Keven - the resident race god at RBWHQ got his mystery bike?  He immediately sold his cross bike and everything else mainstream, and became evangelizer #1 for long bikes!   But it doesn't stop there.  The only bike designer who I respect as much as Grant, who has had as significant of an impact on modern bike design, and who made my one bike I love more than my All Rounder is Jeff Jones.   He's pretty much moved all of his development and promotional energy to his long bike, the Plus!  He's so enamored with it and wants it to reach as many people as possible,  that he's already expanded the line to include three sizes a year after first offering it.  Which is two sizes more than he was willing to do with his short-stay model!

[drew]

you are right about that. a 56cm hunq would be something very interesting to me...though i'd want that diagatube. 

anyway, i think whatever they do will be functional and pretty and all that good stuff, and ill likely drool over all of it. 

from my perspective, of having a hunq and having ridden a longer bike a few times, i truthfully just dont notice much difference. its not like it fixes an invisible problem that the hunq has that i was missing....and if something isnt broke....or maybe im just not so perceptive about these things. at the same time, it didnt feel any worse to me. im ambivalent. 

[RJM]

Hey Keith,

If you check out those Jones Bikes, the chainstays are still relatively short...same goes for the Trek Stache, which is another 29+ in the marketplace (which has a 16.5 inch chainstay). What is the chainstay length on the Jones bike?  I'm having trouble finding it.

Now, the chainstays on an Appalooza are about 20.5 inches where in most general mountain bikes today they are between 18 and 16.5. Heck, even the Trek Farley has a chainstay of 17.3 inches. That Appalooza has a really long chainstay which is probably great for touring, commuting, general riding, even fire road descents because of added stability. The long chainstay is a definite selling feature for that bike. Flicking it around switchbacks on a single track trail would be difficult, as would manualing to get the front wheel up and over obstacles. It's just not the bike for that kind of riding which is the kind of riding that I want to do with my next bike....that's all I'm really saying.

Anyway, I'm not against long chainstays and I can see it adding value to an Atlantis and even a Hunq where the extra stability is probably a pretty good thing.

[RJM]

Ha. That's funny.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Jones Plus has 19" stays.

http://blog.jonesbikes.com/jones-plus-this-is-it/

Dem's long.

[iamkeith]

Looks like Chainstay on the Plus is 19".    Prior to that, and right after the mystery bikes were unveiled, he showed an experimental prototype that he called the Long Ranger, which was even longer by quite a bit.  But he retreated somewhat for the production versions. You're right though that the normal 29er  model (the one I have) is much shorter at 17" which, when he first released it, was pretty impressive for a 29er.  You're also right that the resulting light front end, and ability to manual it around is a lot of fun.  I'm voicing my enthusiasm for the long stays not from experience, but from trusting these two designers, from reading their theory behind the idea, and from listening to feedback from people who's opinion I trust.   

As I've said before, there are ton of similarities between Rivendell and Jones - despite the fact one company looks at technical mountain biking as the end goal, while the other looks at it as secondary or incidental.   Low bottom brackets and center of gravity; short top tubes that require a more upright riding position; shallow set tube angles; a focus on comfortable fit as the path to performance and ability to ride all day; innovative multi-position handlebars.   So it's really interesting to read Jeff's theory about how the long wheelbase allows you to  really move around "in" the expanded fore-aft balance-point "sweet-spot" ,  and confidently throw the bike around in technical situations.  

Oh... one more video and similarity:  Jeff espousing Grant's S240 concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mygdN85tcw

[stonehog]

I'm happy with the news.  I have both a 54cm Hunq and a 59cm Hilsen.  I've often thought about adding braze-on centerpulls to the Hilsen so I can de-adapt my Paul Racers to use the proper mounting format.  I love the idea of a longer Hunq - more stability is better on off-road touring, hill climbs in gravel, bombing down rough stuff.  I don't even mind it going to 650B - I like the high quality tire selection in that size (though that is getting to be less of a problem these days), and assume that the ability to use wider tires would be part of this change.  Bring it!

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 6:50:35 PM UTC-8, Jim S. wrote:

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Looks like a front shock would smooth out a lot of the chunk of that video!

[RJM]

It actually looks like a fun bike to ride....I've never heard of this guy's bikes. Thanks for the videos.

[masmojo]

I am generally in tune with the changes & long chain stays, but too long is too long.
We have two Clementines, a small & a medium & in my opinion the chain stays on both are too long. The small one is only a little too long (1/4" ?) The medium on the other hand is probably almost an inch too long.
While it's true there is little downside to longer chain stays, there are a few. Bottom bracket deflection is one, tubes have to be made thicker to ward off flex of a longer frame otherwise you tend to get ghost shifting when standing on the pedals while climbing or sprinting also it slows handling; I am still adjusting my riding style on the Clementine, because I have been going off the outside of turns when traveling quickly, combined with the upright riding position I find I need to lean the bike more & use a bit of body English to turn confidently.

[Zed Martinez]

Conversely, I rather like the long stays on my Clem (though, can't speak for any singletrack stuff there). They don't really slow me down any on the hairpin at the bottom of a hill I take every day to get on a trail (though I do now need to put a knee out to do it at the same speeds as my 650b converted 80's Fuji road could), and on every other turn on the trail my handling is now far more confident, especially when it's wet and covered in sticks and leaves. The rear wheel always wanted to slide out before, now even with the same tires I was using previously the turns are a lot less worrisome. Add in the bigger tires rolling over more sticks without deflecting, and it's been a lot better experience for me, the 52cm chainstays.

[cyclotourist]

Interesting conversation. I don't really notice chainstay length one way or another on the road, but for me, climbing singletrack isn't as fun with longer stays. I end up spinning out the back tire with my longer-stayed bike. I have to alter my preferred position to weigh down the back, which means I then have to lower my torso to keep the front end down. On my shorter-stayed bikes, I can just sit and spin (as they say) up the singletrack. I can also remedy this by putting a more aggressive, grippier tire on the back, but that kinda' sucks for the road portion of the ride. 

tl;dr short stays work better for me on singletrack

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Philip Kim]

The hunq's chainstay stays the same at 46cm across all sizes. I hope they keep the 48cm chainstay at 46cm and adjust accordingly on the larger sizes. 46cm is plenty enough for me, and will still allow me to get normal chains for replacement.

On Thursday, December 17, 2015 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:

[Surlyprof]

I have to agree with Keith.  At 5'10" and 85 pbh, I spent some time comparing the 54 Hunq and the 52 Clem at Riv HQ.  The longer stays on the Clem made the Hunq feel almost twitchy and awkward by comparison (It's not!).  The Clem was  just really smooth and fun and the 650b wheels felt like they were the perfect size for someone my height/proportions.  What really impressed me about the longer stays was riding with Clayton and others at China Camp soon after he had bought his Cheviot.  He made riding every trail look smooth and downright graceful whistling all the way while the rest of us bounced off the trails a few times.  A big part of that I'm sure was riding ability but afterward he wrote a post raving about how smooth the Cheviot was for trail riding.  I've always had my eye on 52 Bombadils for the stout build and the 650b wheels.  Now the idea of a 54 Hunq with 650b wheels and longer stays is very appealing.  Could you imagine if it might allow even wider tire clearance?!  A 650b Hunq that easily supports 2.3-2.5 tires seems almost too much to ask for!  I think Riv might again be ahead off a curve that everyone else might mimic in some manner later.

John

[Mark Reimer]

I wonder what the max tire width will be with the new geo. I've wanted a Hunq, but given it's 95% the same as my atlantis I can't justify. If it could clear something fatter than 2.25 I'd be aaaaaall over it

[Richard Rios]

After spending some time on a long Proto Hunqapillar here are my thoughts.  Apologies to surly for the blatant rip off!

Long chain stays are cool...So are short...Long chain stays are not magic...but they might agree with your riding style and what you like to do on a bike...if they do you will love and evangelize them...if they don't you wont.  But to say they are just flat better, well um everyone is entitled to their opinion.  For my fitness level and what I do on a bike.  I like shorter better.  But think they are both cool.  If you feel the need to sell your current Atlantis for the bit of extra length that is great...But I wouldn't, and this is after having some time of a longer bike.

Thanks,
Richard

[Ryan Fleming]

Ha ha ha....I like it

[Zach Duval]

IF increasing the chainstay length adds greater tire clearance, I'd also be all for it, even though I'm still a naysayer when it comes to overall bike length improving MTB handling (for the reasons mentioned above). But I still dream of a Hunq that'd fit up to 2.5s...

I hope Riv publishes a more thorough description of the changes soon, including the chainstay length for specific sizes.

[Zach Duval]

Also, for someone's benefit: two great-looking Hunqapillar completes were just added in Web Specials.

[Mark Reimer]

I dream of a hunq with 3" tires. But I'm not sure that's possible with rim brakes. Ah well. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/UBxuL-cRUis/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Zach Duval]

Being a smaller fellow (who'd ride a 48 Hunq), I think 2.5s would give me enough pneumatic suspension that, paired with elbows and knees) would be sufficient for mostly any trails I'd be interested in.

2.5 is definitely possible with rim brakes?

[EGNolan]

They sold this one off a while back, it had been a shop bike, w/ Nitto Noodle's & canti-brakes, so pretty sure 3" & rim brakes are okay, just not sure Riv will make the needed concessions to do so... https://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/surly-pugsley-in-the-rivendell-reader-circa-2007/ 

[iamkeith]

So it looks like it’s official!  Has anyone local to RBWHQ seen a sample frame or drawings for the new 56cm Hunq?!  

 

This has been my dream Riv for many years, but I’m having trouble visualizing it now that it has 650 wheels.   I guess I’m not blindly and ignorantly opposed to the idea like I was when the Bombadil came out but, having since experienced a 29+ mountain bike, I’m pretty sold on the idea that the biggest diameter possible is best for rough trails.

 

Given that wheel size, I’m guessing that the chainstays were NOT lengthened significantly?  Or maybe it was to make the head tube long enough to fit a diagatube?   I’d love to hear or see any inside or first-hand info that anybody has to share.  Good news no matter what…

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Keith,

I'm just going to address the 650b vs 29er on a Hunqapillar issue (I've no info on the new geometry). My basic thought is it doesn't matter significantly one way or the other. The plusses and minuses offset each other on varied terrain. Keep in mind I'm on a 62 Hunqa with 29er wheels. Maintain momentum easily over obstacles but starting, breaking, and long climbs all take a hit. Reverse that if it was 650B instead. I'm big, dumb, and stupid (enough to include dumb and stupid together and meaning the same thing to prove my point. Grin.), so the endurance thing isn't a big deal to me either way and I am just delighted to get to ride big, dumb, and stupid stuff! Grin. Grant's already sweated the details, and I have always found that trusting him is the perfect way to go in getting an amazing ride.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Chad]

LOL, I just got the Riv newsletter as well. A 650b 50cm Hunqa sounds like my dream bike! Might have to sell my Sam and my Roadeo...

[Chris Lampe 2]

I had assumed the new 53 would be my size but there is also a 56.  I really want to see those geometry charts!

[Bill Lindsay]

One word: ROADINI!

[Deacon Patrick]

Och! I meant to add my conclusion: you are right to drool over the Hunqapillar. It is a spectacular go everywhere do everything bike. I delight that I can happily ride asphalt a long way and turn off and ride dirt and technical single track and while a dual suspension downhiller or road specialist might be faster/smoother through individual pieces, they can't do what I do nearly as fast and fun as I do. And if my experience on singletrack is any indication, most with dual suspension lack the trail skills on technical bits so they LCG bits that I ride with my Hunqapillar any way. Fancy technology can augment skill in small ways (and in racing that matters), but it's can't compensate for lack of skill. The Hunqapillar is all about fun and go wherever you want without worry that your bike can't do it. This makes it so day rides to single track include miles of asphalt and dirt road, and I needn't get driven to the trails (I don't drive), and it means bikepacking is easy: go wherever I want! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 4:00:07 PM UTC-6, iamkeith wrote:

[iamkeith]

In that case, you might also consider a "last chance" 54?

[iamkeith]

Sorry, my internet is down due to wildfire, so im posting from my phone. That last response was meant for chris, in case it wasnt obvious

[iamkeith]

Deacon Patrick, im sure you're probably right. I like my 26" road bike for the exact reasons you mention. So as my default, hybrid, spontaneous grab-and-go, do everything bike (which is what i've wanted this for), 650b might be good. Its the smoothing of rough surfaces that really appeals to me about the larger diameter wheel though - moreso than the momentum they carry. Like you, i don't see a lot of pavement. Also, i built up this too-big clem thinking that if a 56 hunq ever came along (stock or custom), i could just swap components over...

[dstein]

I'm with Bill on ROADINI!!!! I'm stoked to hear about that. But yes, also, kinda want the 650b Hunqapillar to replace my 26", just because. 

[Zach Duval]

Please, please let them include even an ever-so-slight tire clearance increase...

[Garth]

Wheels size is another of those much to do about nothing much because you are comparing apples to oranges, they are both wonderful ! I would ride a 26" or 650B wheel 60 Bombadil or 62 Hunq or a custom by any name without hesitation ! Are not bikes just a blast of fun ?!!!

I was once visiting a relative when travelling and on a short trip to the grocery store I rode an old English bike of some sorts that was complètely everything I would never ride by choice, way short tt, a bit too small, way too upright, cramped, blah blah blah. Funny thing.... I had the time of my life regardless of the circumstance though, this no one could possibly explain ☺!

[Chris Lampe 2]

Once we get some financial things settled, I will be watching the used market.   :)  

[Chris Lampe 2]

The 650B Hunqapillars are now available on the drop-down menu on the Hunq page!  Still no geometry or sizing information but maybe that's coming soon.  At least we can see the spread of sizes now.