AHH Tubing Sticker on Frame

[John Hawrylak]

In the recent post

"The healing power of the bicycle a Rivendell story."

the link to the story showed a Sam with a Tubing Sticker on the seat tube giving the tubing mechanical properties: yield stress (70 ksi) and ultimate tensile strength (UTS, 103 ksi). 

Does the AHH have such a Tubing Sticker and if so, does it provide either the yield stress or the UTS values??

Such information is rarely provided on a sticker.  Got to give RBW a definite positive for providing the values.  The values indicate a 4130 steel with stress relief, similar to a True Temper Versus steel tube.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[drew]

This is just a guess. I think it's on the sam because the sam uses riv's spec'd "silver" tubing. My assumption is that the AHH uses a more expensive name brand tubing, like the rest of the more expensive rivendells. You could probably call and ask them.
It's a beautiful decal though. My sam doesn't have one, but now I wish it did.

[John Hawrylak]

Drew,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

I would assume the same as you except for  2 thoughts

1. The AHH price may reflect the higher costs Waterford (or any American shop) has.  It may NOT reflect higher grade tubing costs, Although one would think the AHH uses "better (higher strength)" tubing the Sam
2. The lack of tubing sticker, like True Temper OxPlatnium, or Reynolds 853, on the AHH may indicate such tubing is NOT used. I think RBW would want you to know it was 853, as an example..

 

On the positive side, the price difference in the 3 main tubes is about $70 for True Temper OxPlat compared to True Temper Versus (not heat treated, similar to the Sam Silver tubing, ref, Henry James tubing catalog).  So perhaps the AHH has the higher strength tubing and more built margin to failure.

I thought all RBWs use OS tubes (since early 2000) and I thought the Saluki (and by extension the AHH) used 0.8/0.5/0.8 mm wall thickness

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[ted]

If I recall correctly, Grant has suggested that 

  1) the cost of tubes is such a small fraction of the total cost of a frame that it doesn't make any sense to try and save money there.

  2) there is a lot more to a bike than the particular tubes it is made out of, and that getting all wrapped up in exactly what tubes were used is not particularly helpful for an end customer.

I think that RBW stopped putting tubing stickers on their frames early on for reasons similar to those for generally not publishing weights for their frames (e.g. they don't think we should worry about it), and that the new silver tube sticker is there because those tubes were drawn to their spec and have some unique features that they are a bit proud of. Also since it's their tube set, they get to design the sticker. 

All that said, I think I read somewhere that the built to order frames (i.e. Atlantis, AHH, Rodeo) used heat treated tubing, and the more production frames did not.

[Zach Duval]

Actually, the sticker mentioned above, and that same sticker on my Sam, are recent developments; I was surprised to find it when the frame arrived. Grant has in fact repeatedly stressed the unimportant of specific tubing in a frame; however, he does seem proud of these proprietary tubes.

I like the science-year feel I get from seeing the sticker on my frame, but I confess the percentages mean very little to me.

[john.h...@verizon.net]

Zach

 

thanks for the reply.  The % of elements indicate it is Cr-Moly 4130 steel, 1% Cr 0.2% Mo, is the major alloying elements giving the steel certain properties.  In contrast, Reynolds 531 used Mangenese instead of Mo.

 

The 2 values are the yield stress (used to design the frame) and ultimate tensile strength (where it breaks).  You can compare these values to other tubing manufacturers like Columbus, Reynolds, True Temper, Tange, etc.  The higher value indicates a stronger steel.

 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

 

On 11/22/15, Zach Duval<zrd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

Actually, the sticker mentioned above, and that same sticker on my Sam, are recent developments; I was surprised to find it when the frame arrived. Grant has in fact repeatedly stressed the unimportant of specific tubing in a frame; however, he does seem proud of these proprietary tubes.

I like the science-year feel I get from seeing the sticker on my frame, but I confess the percentages mean very little to me.

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Once upon a time, I read one of Grant's posting explaining why the identification of tubing is not as important as what many will make it out to be. Coming from a tradition of Italian racing bicycles, I cynically disagreed then, but have since come around as I read more, and learned more. There are many things orders of magnitude more important than the specifications of the constituent tubings. For example, if the frame dimensions fits your riding style, if the tubings are well put together, and (if you're a Jan Heine "planing" adherent) what the tubing thicknesses and diameters are, all come immediately to mind. Furthermore, bicycle tubes hardly ever fail from lack of tensile strength, especially Rivendell's bicycles that tend to be overbuilt (as is their philosophy) to last a lifetime. Grant touched upon topics like the consideration for where strength is needed, like chainstays tend to see higher stress than seatstays so using higher strength alloys (or thicker tubing) make sense there; he also had a little discourse on why he believes fork blades should have a lower yield.

From this short discussion, it should be clear that having a tubing sticker doesn't make any sense, especially one that specifies the UTS, yield and elongation (because it's highly likely not all tubes use the identical alloy). I'll rather the experienced designer/builder pick whatever is suitable for its intended use, regardless of whether it's 953, 853 or 725 (to use Reynolds' parlance). Many highly-regarded builders are aligned in this vein. Put another way, what good are these data going to do for the end-user?

Finally, I think that Rivendell's new tubing sticker is tongue-in-cheek.

[Patrick Moore]

This is the second smart thing Benz has said today. The other was his remark about the helmet study.

[John Hawrylak]

Benz concluded on the usefulness of the tubing sticker on the Sam

"Put another way, what good are these data going to do for the end-user?"

I agree, especially since it shows lower end tubing, which while fine for the job at hand, could be stronger for no to little cost increase.  I just thought a Riv would have above average tubing.

I agree on the AHH not needing a sticker, since it is some name brand tubing.  But lack of any sticker, suggest the tubing may be run of mill and not above average.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[ted]

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/3218082349/the-t-question-long-post-dry-reading

I think it's wrong to presume the absence of a tubing sticker on the AHH means the tubes are just average.
The above blog post names the types of the various tubes in an AHH. They don't sound just average to me, though I don't know much about tubes so ...

[Marc Irwin]

If I remember the post Benz alluded to, Grant said the Waterford, made to order, bikes were a combination of TrueTemper and Reynolds tubing.  It kinda makes an identifying sticker useless, how many would you use where?

[Steve Cole]

I'm wondering whether anyone has any insight into the tubing used in the early years' Toyo edition of the AHH. I proudly own one.

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

[ted]

Though I cant find where, I recall reading that if your bike came from Japan it was made with Japanese tubes that were every bit as good but less well known than the ones in US built bikes. But your best bet is to call them up and ask, I expect they would be happy to oblige a proud owner who wanted to know a bit more about his bike.

[ted]

Found it,

From: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rivendell/ahomerhilsen.html

"TUBING: Lightweight butted heat-treated CrMo steel. When Waterford makes the frame, it's a mix of Reynolds and True Temper. When Toyo (in Japan) makes the frame, it's Japanese tubing that is every bit as good at least, but not as well-known. Basically....we're talking about a fine steel bike here. If your frame size is between 57 and 58cm, choosing between the A. Homer Hilsen and the functionally identical Saluki is tough, but despite their being separate models with different identities, both share the same, identical functional qualities, and what one can do, the other can do equally well, exactly."

But still if you really want to know, its probably best to just call RBW.