Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

per Boulder Bikes.

Anyone know the story about this?

[Brian Campbell]

Is there a link for some context?

[Patrick Moore]

Per the other thread: http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Belopsky]

What exactly are you asking? 700c is faster.

[John Hawrylak]

Igor, I believe Mike Kone's answer is "yes".

I posted the link to Boulder Bicycles in response to the thread about "optimum" tire widths for various rim diameters.

Boulder designed and sells a 650B low trial and a 700C low trial (both planning), mainly for general riding and brevets,  Kone put his 'philosophy" on the page, apparently to answer questions he seems to be getting in inquires.

I thought it was concise & relevant, since Boulder appears to champion the low trail, light tubing before others and with no less gusto.  I thought others may have not seen it.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 11:41:20 PM UTC-5, Belopsky wrote:

[Belopsky]

Hey John, I appreciate the answer, though it sounds like you were meaning to answer Lum's as mine was more a statement/answer ;)

[Tim]

I read Mike's thoughts on the link. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems as if he has thrown down the gauntlet for Jan. IIRC, Jan claims that you don't give up speed with 650Bx42. He also seems to be throwing some shade (as the kids say these days) at the Kasei fork blades. Perhaps that is because there is a somewhat limited (hopefully still growing) market for rando bikes and it's all about marketing to stay in business. But it seems to me that it is a direct challenge to what Jan has been saying.

[Jan Heine]

It's true that René Herse's and Alex Singer's bikes went to narrower 700C tires for their randonneur bikes. They didn't stop at 30-32 mm. By the 1970s, their bikes were equipped with 25 or even 23 mm tires. This wasn't necessarily because they thought these tires were faster – they were following the general trend toward narrower tires.

The wide 650B tires you see on French cyclotouring bikes from the 1930s and 1940s bikes trace their origins to the insight of Velocio, the editor of the magazine Le Cycliste. In the 1920s, he realized that supple, wide tires roll as fast as narrow ones on smooth surfaces, and faster on rough ones. His stories of riding far and fast on these big 'balloon' tires captured the imagination of his readers. In the 1930s and 1940s, Velocio's influence continued in the Concours de Machines (Technical Trials), where the rules required wide tires. The Concours captured cyclists' imaginations, and having a 'Concours Bike' was the dream of many. On the rough post-war roads, wide tires also made sense.

The last Concours was held in 1949. Cars and mopeds were becoming popular, and in the downturn of the bike industry, It was hard to find the money and initiative to organize another Concours. Without anybody promoting wide tires, cyclotouring bikes started following racing bike practice, and many switched to 700C wheels and narrow tires. 650B made a minor comeback after Serge Félix rode a 650B Herse to third place in the 1955 Poly de Chanteloup hillclimb race. One of our René Herse posters shows him during that ride. He demonstrated once again that wider 650B tires aren't slower even on smooth roads. But a single result wasn't enough to turn the tide, and the '650B revival' was short-lived.

And as demand dwindled, supple, wide tires became unavailable. Rene Herse stuck with wider tires and 650B longer than most, but without any 650B tires beyond heavy utility models, it didn't make sense to build high-performance 650B bikes. In the 1960s, Wolber introduced their "Super Randonneur" 650B tires so that the old bikes still out there could continue rolling, and that led to many touring and camping bikes being built for 650B again. But those tires were just 32 mm wide, reflecting the general trend to narrower tires. By then, 700C bikes already used 25 mm tires. The French Confrerie des 650 consists of riders who came of age during that time, and that is why they champion the 650B x 32 mm tire size so ardently, and are quite disappointed that the world has gone to 650B, but in much wider widths than used by the bikes of their youth.

Velocio's insights that wider tires can be as fast as narrow ones weren't rediscovered until Bicycle Quarterly, and, shortly afterward, others like the Cervelo pro team, started testing tire resistance with the rider on the bike. Now, more than a decade later, it's well-established that wider tires roll as fast as narrow ones, provided they use the same casing and construction.

However, performance isn't everything, and the feel of the bike can be just as important, especially to a non-competitive rider. Narrow tires do feel different, and Mike Kone has often said that he likes a 'connected' feel to the road. A wider tires insulates you from the road surface, which can be good for speed and comfort, but may not be what you want if you enjoy a 'sports car' feel. I suspect that it's this feel that Mike really is talking about when he writes that wide tires aren't as "fast and perky."

At Compass Cycles, we respect all approaches, which is why we offer our tires in a variety of widths and diameters. We can tell you which tire is faster (or not), but we won't tell you which bike feel you should prefer. There are many wonderful bikes out there. While my tires may be wider than most, I equally enjoy my Firefly with its 'wide' 54 mm tires and my J. P. Weigle with its 'narrow' 38s, and my other bikes with their 'in-between' 42s.

Jan Heine

Founder

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com 

[Ray Varella]

I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending.
I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years.
When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that bike more than most.
It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and carries nothing but a small under seat bag.

While the road bike feels “faster”.
The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break.
Neither is ever faster than the other.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[M G]

I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   

My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.  But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.

Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable rocket. 

[M G]

Oh, and re speed, the Boulder FEELS faster, it IS faster climbing wise, again EXCEPT when i can get the Kog to flex

And as part of my 'let me compare thee to a BQ bicycle' i have the Kog and the boulder set up EXACTLY the same, and they are almost EXACTLY the same geometry.

Compared them to each other multiple times, multiple courses.

[tires as close to comparable as i could get, both 42s and 38s on the 650b, and 30s and 32s on the 700c / light weights both of them]

The Kog feels better on dirt, for sure, feels better descending.  In the end either 1 would make a fine "if i only had 1 bike"

Ron in Western Ma

[Patrick Moore]

My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort and speed and 'planing'

I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this), but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.

Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!

Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other such workaround?

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[Patrick Moore]

BTW, the Herse had my optimum sizing: 60 and 56.5 c-c, with level top tube and fistful and a half of seapost exposed to the air. If I have another custom made, it will have a 60 c-c st and undersquare tt.

[M G]

Eno eccentric for the boulder (i tried for a little while to use the magic combination, and it was too much of a hassle. The hub was a 'regular' Eno, and one can just replace the axle which is a great feature

tires - 

i have found that i like 28 to 30 on the boulder (and on my most excellent Tom Ritchey) / that 32 - 33 = sluggish (and measurably slower). 

I'm 180 lbs.  

Likewise i like 'em a little smaller than the internet says re 650b as well; 38s vs 42s feel much faster.

Ron

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:03:46 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort and speed and 'planing'

I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this), but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.

Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!

Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other such workaround?

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G <mgst...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   

My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.  But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.

Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable rocket. 

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:

I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending.
I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years.
When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that bike more than most.
It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and carries nothing but a small under seat bag.

While the road bike feels “faster”.
The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break.
Neither is ever faster than the other.

Ray
Vallejo CA

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[Ty Smith]

I'm 210 lbs and just about every bike I get on seems to "plane" for me, and I think its because my weight makes nearly every bike flex for me in the right way. 

Ty

[lum gim fong]

What does the flexing actually feel like?

I have ridden a Bleriot, Sam, and Rambouillet.

When I am fit, they all feel fast.

When I am not, sometimes the Sam and Bleriot felt like I could not get out of my own way on hills.

With the Rambouillet, I feel like the pedals are easier to turn. Like they are cooperating. Even on hills, they are responsive to the stroke, even when going plodding slow uphill. Just easier to turn the pedals. All almost identical builds and fit setups.

Also, I have ridden with people who rode 531 and asked them if they felt planing and they said no.

I think butting length also effects the planing.

Also tire pressures/widths.

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting again. I can't say that my 28 mm actual Elk Passes feel slower than 22 mm actual Conti GPs (559 and 571 versions), or 571 Michelin Pro Race 3s and 4s, or in fact the very nice 559 X1" and 22 mm actual Specialized Turbo, when that was available; in fact, while feeling cushier (and of course being a heckofalot better for dirt), they actually feel faster, in the sense of making it seem easier to turn over a given gear at a given rpm in given conditions. I think that the feeling of smoothness also makes them feel faster (about 60 psi versus 80/90 f/r -- I'm 175 or so). (IME, it's not vibration at all that makes skinny tires feel faster, if in fact they do feel faster; just the opposite.)

If you were to post a conventional drive side profile view photo of the Boulder, I would not complain.

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[Patrick Moore]

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[Patrick Moore]

Lum: I can't say I've experienced planing either, but I'm curious what you attribute the Ram's feeling of easier pedaling to? It's not setup; overall weight? Wheel weight? Tires? Loads? Position and fit?

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 1:57 PM, lum gim fong <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[EasyRider]

The only bike I'm sure has "planed" for me was a 1977 Raleigh Grand Prix, and that was about 10 years before I heard the term. I had built it up as a fixed gear and I was surprised how light it was, being hi-tensile steel. Alas, it was a tad long for me in the top tube, and the bottom bracket was very fussy, so I traded it a month later. I think the tubing diameter was the relevant metric. It used standard tubes and I was probably only 150lbs back then.

[lum gim fong]

@ Patrick:

overall weight? - not sure. I think same. I'd have to measure. I think I did once and they were the same, have to double check. I think it was Sam: 29 Ram: 27, Bleriot: 27

Wheel weight? - sameish (Rode GB 650b on Bleriot and Ram, Synergies 650b on Ram and Sam).

Tires? - sameish (Rode 650b 42's on all).

Loads? - same

Position and fit? - same (53 Bleriot, 54Ram, 52Sam). All 41 Noodles and 6cm stems. Bar heights/reach same. All Flyer saddles, set up in KOPS. Reach same.SH same.

The Ram buildset was swapped over  from my Sam.

I noted (if true from what the bike sheets say from RR and RBW) that the rear triangle and ST, IIRC,  is a smidgeon thinner walled on the Ram than the Sam.

I asked Grant why the Ram would feel easier to get on down the road. He said he didn't know. Speculated maybe the shorter stays, and one other thing, but I forgot what it was.

[Patrick Moore]

Well, very interesting how some bikes feel faster than others without there being a readily identifiable cause for this. 

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[Garth]

 Because perception is infinite :)  Every one is unique. We may claim that we can repeat something exactly the same, but there is no fooling what can't be fooled. Life !

[Steve Palincsar]

The Hōshi family has run the inn bearing their name in Japan’s Ishikawa Prefecture for 1,300 years. Forty six generations have accepted the profession of their ancestors, but that same weight of tradition keeps the family sharply focused on the present moment.

Zengoro Hōshi refers to the concept Ichi-go ichi-e (一期一会) meaning "one time, one meeting", as his constant reminder to cherish each meeting with a customer, or friend, because no moment ever repeats. The term originated in the 16th Century with tea master Sen no Rikyū, and it's with a tea ceremony that all guests are first welcomed to the hotel (even before they are shown to their rooms).

The Hōshi Ryokan was founded in 716 with the discovery of a hot springs. The garden is relatively new, though it was designed by a 16th century garden master....  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QfgKPGCAw

-- https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=215191

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Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Garth]

Thank you for that Steve  !  

I am always amazed how "the time" is always "the present" ... it's "now". It's always "now", the present, no matter what appears, no matter the position of the sun, no matter the click-clock of the clock .  We are inherently "present" no matter what or who or how or when or why. Even to think of a "then", referring to "an-other now" called "the past, the passed", it is thought NOW. the only now. But hey, "the past" seems but a story of "yet another now" , and/or "how now came to be."  Yet, now doesn't come or go, now is always present tense !  HaH !  So "the present tense" is infinite, like an infinite variety of the same one "presence", perceived infinitively.

So yeah .... every moment is unique, held in a "Infinite Intelligence" for lack of any other term at this moment, and I doubt that matters "now" ! Hah !   Yeah ... this now, the now one .... ahahahahaahahah !   Oh heck .... I can only laugh with it all ...... and smile .... and cherish all of now .

I know how this may sound .... or not .....but just as I don't choose the way the sun rises and falls.... I never know what's gonna arise in "thought", let alone anywhere else !   Just being honest ..... :-)

[RichS]

Garth and Steve. Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Getting my day off to a nice start as I "smile and cherish all of now".

Best,

Richard 

[Peter Turskovitch]

I've often read on Jan Heine's blog that the BQ team has "proven" that big tires are just as fast. Where can I read these tests? I'm a subscriber to BQ but I've only read the last two editions.

[Deacon Patrick]

Peter, I think you’ll find today’s blog a timely answer to your question...
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/12-myths-in-cycling-1-wider-tires-are-slower/

Further, you can get back issues by topic, including tires, here: https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/print/4-pack-bq-back-issues/

With abandon,
Patrick

[lum gim fong]

Did they test the Compass tires against Marathons. Rumplins, and Hetres yet?

[Belopsky]

Hetres were the tires before Compass

[Jan Heine]

We did test Marathons, Rolly-Polies, Maxy-Fasties and Nifty-Swifties. All these were among the slower tires we tested. That shouldn't come as a surprise – these tires weren't designed as performance tires, so we only tested them to see how much you'd gain by going to high-performance tires. The answer is 'a lot' - especially if you ride at lower speeds than pro racers, who are more limited by aerodynamics than the rest of us.

Hetres were designed based on the results of our first tire tests, so they performed quite well. We then developed our Compass tires together with the engineers at Panaracer (who make Compass tires to our exclusive specifications). We used everything we'd learned from the Hetres and other Grand Bois tires (also made by Panaracer), to take comfort, speed and grip to the next level. We bench-marked these against tires like the Vittoria Open CX Corsa. Our testing indicates that the goal was achieved.

It has been exciting to work with a tire maker who not only has the resources to develop great tires, but also has been willing to work closely with us to turn the results of our tests into actual tires we can ride. The rest of the tire industry is only slowly waking up to the fact that riders in the real world want and need wide tires that don't have sturdy 'touring' casings, but that offer the performance and comfort you can only get with a high-performance casing.

Jan Heine

Founder

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

[Jan Heine]

P.S.: Tires like the Marathons and others mentioned previously serve a real need in the tire world, too. It's not that one tire is better than the other - it all depends on what you need in a tire. If you are riding half a mile to the train station, as many Germans do, a flat tire will have you miss the train. A Marathon will be a little slower and ride more harshly over the bumps, but you'll never notice that on your 5-minute ride. A Compass tire makes no sense in that scenario. Or if you plan a long ride on the shoulder of busy highways that are full of steel wires from exploded truck tires, you may want to trade speed and comfort for puncture protection.

That said, as we go with wider tires, the risk of flats is much-reduced. A 42 mm tire at 40 psi simply rolls over a piece of glass that would puncture a 23 mm tire at 100 psi. And if you ride on the scenic backroads that see little travel, then you'll encounter far less debris, too.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/03/2018 06:04 PM, Jan Heine wrote:
> t has been exciting to work with a tire maker who not only has the
> resources to develop great tires, but also has been willing to work
> closely with us to turn the results of our tests into actual tires we
> can ride. The rest of the tire industry is only slowly waking up to
> the fact that riders in the real world want and need wide tires that
> don't have sturdy 'touring' casings, but that offer the performance
> and comfort you can only get with a high-performance casing.

and are willing to pay for them, too

[John Hawrylak]

Jan

I do remember the your original tests showing these to be slower.  Also, the original tests had the Pasela with a low resistance, about the same as the Grand Bois in it's size.

Can you compare the resistance of a Compass tire to these, to allow one to validate your claims??  I do not your claims, based on the casing differences, but a little validation goes a long way.   Perhaps include the resistance of a slower tire so one can see the Compass improvement, e.g.

X = Compass

Y = GB or Pasels

Z = slower tire with a resistance of Y + (Y-X)

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Jan Heine]

Good question, John. It took some time to dig out all that data from the many tire tests we did. We never tried to show that our Compass tires were fastest – in fact, when we first tested tires, we didn't even sell tires. I pulled together the data...

Here are our roll-down tests:

Compass Extralight: 25.3 seconds

Compass Standard: 26.7 seconds

Michelin Pro2 Race: 26.8 seconds

Grand Bois Hetre: 27.1 seconds

Panaracer Pasela (non-Tourguard): 27.3 seconds

Schwalbe Marathon: 28.3 seconds

Rolly-Poly: 28.5 seconds

Maxy-Fasty: 29.8 seconds

Nifty-Swifty: 30.6 seconds

Small differences between tires don't mean much with real-road testing: there is always some noise, and our calibration for different temperatures on different test days may introduce a slight error. We also didn't test the Compass tires in our roll-down tests – they weren't available yet back then – but we tested other tires that performed identical in later track tests, which allows us to infer their performance. 

What this means is that it's impossible to say whether a Michelin Pro2 Race or a Compass Standard is faster... but you can say that you'll be significantly faster on a Compass Standard than on a Marathon.

To check out methodology, we also tested tires on a track (paved, not wooden) with a power meter. We didn't test all tire models, but we did test the following tires on the same day, at 27.78 km/h (17.3 mph). This means that the conditions were exactly the same, which reduces the 'noise' considerably:

- Compass standard: 157.8 W

- Schwalbe Marathon: 167.6 W

- Rivendell Rolly-Poly: 168.5 W

These results confirmed what we found in our roll-down tests, and since they were done at a constant speed, it's easy to see what this means in a real-world setting: To keep up on the rider with the first tire, a rider on the third tire must put out 7% more power. That is a huge difference – if you have two riders of identical fitness, the rider on the slower tires would be unable to keep up. And the 'standard' Compass tire isn't even the fastest tire we've tested - you can gain an extra 5% over that... If you go much faster than 17.3 mph, the difference will be smaller - wind resistance becomes more important – but if you go slower, the difference will be larger. That is why for most of us, tires make the biggest difference in the performance of our bikes.

Jan Heine

Founder

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

[Deacon Patrick]

Jan, Since you’re “on the line,” I noticed you have been testing bikepacking rigs including with wider tires. Do you have any plans for supple, 2.1” or wider 700c tires, including nobbies? Your Steilacoms are brilliant in snow and gravel/sand and do amazingly well on pavement. I’d love a bikepacking tike for my 700c Hunqapillar. Grin. I understand that for much of the riding you do, the tires sizes you have for various wheel sizes make perfect sense, but there is certainly a market for wider tires in 700c and different types of riding.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Jan Heine]

Patrick,

I am currently riding a bike with the knobby Pumpkin Ridge 650B x 42s here in Japan (check both the @compasscycle and @bikequarterly Instagram for some photos). I love the tires for the rides we are doing here in the winter. Of course, we have to weigh the issues of mold costs and the need to keep all these different products in stock, but your dream tire and mine aren't very far apart...

Jan Heine

Founder

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

[Deacon Patrick]

Oh, boy! Thanks, Jan!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Philip Kim]

yep. snowed last night and they ride so well on fresh snow on the streets. i've always wanted a knobby like this for 650bx42. i'm glad i picked these up.

[Belopsky]

How do they ride on slush? Even my studded knobs are terrible

[Deacon Patrick]

On/in/through slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter, my Steilacoms are superior to my racing ralphs, which tend to be more swimmy. I’m not sure how much is due to narrower tire (38mm v. 2.1”) and how much is knobby pattern and/or plushness of tires. The Compass tread patters sheds matter with each tire rotation better than any other knobby I’ve used, so it has a fresher, cleaner pattern to dig in far more often. (Peanut butter slop and mud being the exception to this. They are glue.) But slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter are perhaps the most challenging to ride through of cold weather conditions. It’s as much about technique as any other factor. Good tires without technique will be very frustrating until you learn. Play with what works, but I find slow and steady speed and pedaling works very well (and far more so fixed).

With abandon,
Patrick

[Philip Kim]

studded knobs aren't for me. the pumpkin ridge bite into powdered snow on the road really well, and then shed that snow off the tire very well. so the tire actually will rotate in the snow, instead of spinning and digging deeper into the snow with no movement.

i didn't really expect much, but its pretty amazing really. Like Deacon, I too, ride slow and steady and have to vary my pedaling a bit. I've been looking for some snow tires too, just surprised that a "smaller" tire works so well. Studded tires have its uses, but i'd rather ride these pumpkin ridges and ride slower/more careful than ride with such heavy tires, with studs that wear out so quickly considering how expensive they are. 

I am of the belief I should be riding more alert and careful in any inclement weather anyways.

[Philip Kim]

also to note, had a friend in chicago who rode 622x28 tires on his snow beater bike. claimed they cut through the snow rather than riding on top of it. never did that myself.

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting. 30+ years ago when I lived and worked in downtown WDC, the bike messengers who braved the snow as often as not did so on racing bikes with skinny, 23 mm at most, tires.

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[Adam Kilgas]

I've found that to be true in my case as well; I commuted for several years year-round on 25's and 28's here in Indiana, and on most types of snow, the narrower tire would cut through it and find some traction.

[lum gim fong]

I read a book about living on your bike and the guy said one can ride on the top tube and put one foot down on the ice for balance while riding on icy streets.

But I won't ride on wet roads below 35F for fear of an icy crash.

I crashed in dry warm weather going about 5mph on a sidewalk and broke me arm fall 2016. So I definitely won't ride in icy conditions.

[Tim]

If I’m going to live on my bike, I’m going to to stay on the seat instead of the top tube, and sometime around mid to late October I will point the bike south and not stop until there’s no chance of ice anywhere but in my beach drink :-)

[lum gim fong]

Ha ha ha!!
Living on two wheels by dennis coello