3-Speed MTBing Resources?

[Deacon Patrick]

Continuing to toy, and one alluring concept is going with a three speed hub. I’ve searched around a bit and not found much (I know of Shaw’s 3-Speed Society) specific to MTBing with 3-speed IGH. Anyone know of anything?

With abandon,
Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[Patrick Moore]

Now, why, again, a IGH for winter off road? And why 3 speed instead of 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14? I'm all for it, but I'm curious as to your motive.

Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, when I was briefly dating a (Anglo) woman who lived on Bilaga'ana- (that's Navajo for white man, and I'm half that) -accessible but Cochiti-owned land near the Cochiti (not Navajo) reservation WSW of Santa Fe, near some wonderful rocky and hilly jeep track -- this was 1989 or 1990, when mtbs were still newish; her new DB had just 6 cogs -- I converted a thrift store Schwinn 3 speed into an off roader by swapping out the 40-something ring for a 36, giving me, with the stock 18 t ring, roughly 70", 53", and 40" gears. I recall a nice, long Saturday afternoon ride along a mountain jeep track where for a young, fit person, these ratios did quite well if you don't mind standing. But the Shimano -- was it SA? -- hub hardly was designed for this sort of riding; we crossed what I guess was the same stream half a dozen times, and I recall seeing water flowing out of the hub once I got through to the far side. The hub still worked, and I never bothered to strip it or even lube it, but I daresay that it would not have lasted through many such rides.

Back to internal gears: Sure, a 3 speed will work, for a while at least; but why not Rohloff? Or, whole hog, one of the new bb-area gear systems? Or the, as I read, well judged Alfine 8 or 9 or 11 speed hubs? Or a Nuvinci? Stevie used to sell fat bikes with the NuVinci.

I briefly tried fixed -- 60 gi -- off road, but while going up and even flat was fine, downhills on 175 mm cranks was horrible, as was trying to spin on smooth flats with a tailwind. I switched to a 63" freewheel gear.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Philip Williamson]

I know nothing about it. The AW ratios Patrick mention, 40”, 52”, 70” sound about perfect. Try it and tell us how it goes.

I’d use a new AW, not an old one, because the new ones supposedly don’t go in neutral when they are out of gear. That feature of the old ones is not excellent.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Deacon Patrick]

Patrick of the Moore asked with cocked eyebrow on a tilted head, me squintin’ back at ‘im, puffin’ me pipe: “I'm curious as to your motive.” Grin.

Hearty simplicity with just enough practicality added to make it work. Grin. My general approach to things is to try (for a minimum of three months) the simplest way to do something. Doing so ALWAYS teaches me a LOT and often the lessons are often utterly counter to anything I thought I knew. I’ve spoken about doing this with going barefoot (where I “discovered” the idea), and then floor living. A more recent iteration of it is with writing. My first drafts are now all cursive on 5” x 7” notebooks, in pencil, holding it completely differently from what is taught (but as is shown in paintings almost universally from 300ish to 1,800s) and sharpened to a 1.1mm lead. Without going into the mind numbing details, this promotes flow of thought (and gets me past my brain injury challenges of focus and losing train of thought), whereas typing and print are very staccato.

Since I’ve had the Quickbeam and shifted the Hunqapillar to a 1x9 38t x 12-36t with manual bailout chainring of 24t (no front DR), I have often had the thought “I only need rather wide spaced gearing, 3-5 gears, with a really low gearing option for bikepacking. The QB is my “as simple as it can be done” bike and it continues to teach me a LOT. Grin. I’m now striving to apply that to the Hunqapillar.

From what I’ve read the new Taiwanese Sturmey Archers are vast improvements over the post 1950’s British made mediocre ones. They are sealed (at least more so) than what you rode.

Why IGH? Weatherproofing. Why 3? Heartiest, beefiest around. Greatest gear range per gear, giving a 2 x 3 drive the same or slightly greater range as my current 2x cassette.

With abandon,
Patrick

[jeffrey kane]

I think you're getting onto something there -- 3 speed MTN bikes could be the new single speed MTN bikes. Now, which company would take that on? A super durable, lightweight 3sp. IG hub and stealthy shifter (no doubt incorporating some sort of dropper seat post button as well). I vote for Sram to do it -- and wait for it ... wirelessly as well (!) (Cue the groans and gasps from the peanut gallery).

Cool idea though.

Jeffrey (one day I'm sure I'll one an eTap drive train) Kane

[Takashi]

Sturmey Archer's 2-speed hub with built-in coaster brake?
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/products/detail/s2c-silver

Back pedaling slightly shifts gear, back pedaling more applies brake.
Doesn't require cables!
I have test ridden it for only a very short distance, so I can't tell about its effectiveness or durability.

Takashi

[lconley]

My 1st fifty miler (getting the Cycling Merit Badge in the Boy Scouts) in 1969 was on a Schwinn Stingray with a Bendix 2 speed kickback hub. Extremely reliable hub, the modern SA, kind of iffy. I have had two of the modern SA hubs and they both clicked (clunked?) loudly when under any sort heavy braking - downhill usually (I live in Florida so downhill is a relative term). I never put a lot of miles on either, but they were not confidence inspiring. The Bendix survived many, many miles of use including twice daily, heavily loaded newspaper delivery for three years (~150 customers) without a peep.

Laing

[Jeremy Till]

The thing about 3 speed hubs is that they're really designed for relatively low torque applications, namely commuting in mostly flat cities.  I wonder about their longevity when they're exposed them to the kind of torques involved with climbing a steep trail offroad.  Jobst Brandt, king of torque, didn't like older SA 3spds because they could pop out of gear under load, potentially causing injury to the rider standing on the pedals:

http://yarchive.net/bike/sturmey_archer_hubs.html

I think the newer hubs with redesigned pawl system are less prone to do that, but they're still not designed for high peak load applications.  And while they are probably better sealed than the old ones, I don't think they are super well sealed compared to, say, a cartridge bearing freehub.  

One other thing to consider is that, especially with a brand new IGH, there is noticeable friction in the other-than-direct gears.  In the low gear especially, this is apparent as vibration in the pedals.  I know that with your brain injury, Patrick, you can be sensitive to sounds and smells, do you think this type of vibration might be problematic?

All of this is theoretical coming from me, since I haven't tried it. I think there was an IGH forum on MTBR, which may have people who have actually tried it.  It's been many years since I lurked over there though.  

[Patrick Moore]

I never noticed friction or roughness or vibration with any AW hub, or for that matter any Shimano 3 speed, but I sure did with the bottom gear of the S3X. But I hear that these hubs "wear in" -- is this so? Note though that my experience with AWs and Shimano 3s includes new as well as used hubs.

Many users of the Rohloff say that it does "wear in."

I'm interested in this thread -- how a wide range 3 speed hub might perform in the real off road terrain (not just dusty irrigation roads) and extreme cold that t'other Patrick rides in; that is, how does it perform as gearing for the terrain, and how well do the innards resist torque and the elements?

As for torque, many quasi-professional road riders, if not real professionals -- and maybe some of those, too -- used epicyclic hub gears; didn't Tommy whatsisname, who set that miles per year record, use some sort of 3 speed hub?

But Patrick: a AW-cum-drum in back, a Dynohub (tm)-cum-drum in front ... a good 15 lb of hus! I owned one of the former, and it was a cool hunk of metal, but damn, the thing must have weighed 8 or 10 lb.

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[A CT Cyclist]

On my bike built for winter conditions I have a Shimano Alfine 8 speed hub with a kick brake and a front rim brake for fair weather and back up. You have to have a horizontal drop out to use the kick brake because of the risk of pulling the wheel out of a vertical drop out. Its also cleaner? more simple to run the IGH with out the need for a chain tensioner. I have never experienced or should I say perceived any friction in any of the gears.

In regards to tolerance to wet conditions no problems so far. Also I'd like to note that People have been riding old 3 speed bikes for years all around the world in all sorts of conditions. Anyone know what the dutch bicycles use for IGH?

Finally  Heinz Stücke used a Torpedo hub in his 3 speed that he traveled the world with. 

http://www.bikechina.com

PS I was glad someone brought up the issue of needing a fork designed with intention of using a drum brake.  If you google it you will find numerous cautionary tales about using said drum brake on a "regular fork".

[Philip Williamson]

I'm running an S2 (no coaster brake) on my Quickbeam, commuting into SF. I like it a lot. The low isn't low enough for Patrick's needs, I'd wager. 

The AW with a 34 x 18 looks nice, depending on tire diameter: 40", 53", 71" gears. The S3X with a freewheel won't go that wide (39", 47", 63"). 

Build an AW wheel and let us know how it works out!

Philip

www.biketinker.com

Santa Rosa, CA

[lconley]

The Dutch use SA or Sachs. One of my two speed SAs was on a made in the Netherlands Amstardam. The Gazelle Tour Populair also uses SA.

Laing

[Philip Williamson]

Looks like the SRAM Spectro T3 goes a little lower and a little higher than the AW.

39", 53", 72.5" with 34x18. 

38", 52", 71" with 35x19.

37", 51", 69" with 36x20. 

 

Philip

www.biketinker.com 

[A CT Cyclist]

Their is a blogger in Minnesota who used to ride an Alfine w/ a Gates belt then he had a custom bike built to run with disc brakes, Gates belt and a Rolhoff hub.

https://fourseasoncycling.com/2016/01/31/my-commuter-bike-design-explained/ 

Vic of TheLazyRandonneur.com a now defunct blog was a big proponent of IGH hubs on MTB. He rode with Alfine and Rolhoff hubs.

After 4 years of all kinds of riding he open up this Alfine 8 speed hub to service and found it was perfectly fine. 

On Sunday, November 5, 2017 at 6:10:28 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Christopher Murray]

I always thought it would be cool to add a triple crank to my single speed- 3x1 instead of 1x3. You could get a pretty wide range of gears. Friction shift the front derailer?

Has anyone tried this? I might give it a try.

Cheers!
Chris

[Patrick Moore]

Chris: I've always thought that the more shifting you can leave the the rear, the simpler and better off you are; that's one reason, I guess, why 1X drivetrains are so popular now, and for decades people have been leaving off the FD to make things as trouble free as possible. Front shifting is always more problematic than rear shifting.

Also, you get a lot more ratio change from a tooth change in back than from a tooth change in front.

So, I wonder what the advantages of 3 X 1 will be?

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[Christopher Murray]

I don’t know that there would be any advantages outside of a simpler set up and avoiding an IGH. If you used a triple with 42x32x24 rings you’d have a low, mid, and high gear. I’d have to figure out the gear inches compared to a IGH set up to see how they compare.

I think I’d choose a 3x1 front derailer set up over a 1x3 IGH set up for mountain biking and remote touring.

Cheers!
Chris

[Patrick Moore]

A 1 x 3 rear cogs would give you bigger range with less axle movement and easier shifting.

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[Philip Williamson]

Patrick is right - you get twice as much gear change in the rear as the front. But... you can get three times the range if you change them both, right? 

I had a plan to make a 2x2, mostly for fun. Once you've got a tensioner, it may as well be a derailleur. Conversely, if you've got a chainkeeper in front, it may as well be a derailleur. I think the main impetus was too many parts in the bin, and redundant fixed gear bikes. And the White DOS ENO freewheels don't have big jumps. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Kurt Manley]

A Paul "Melvin" chain tensioner has 20 tooth capacity. You could use this with Chris's ring suggestions and run just a front derailleur. Or just manually shift the front.....

https://paulcomp.com/shop/components/melvin-chain-tensioner/

 

On Tuesday, November 7, 2017 at 1:06:43 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray wrote:

[nash...@gmail.com]

"Will" at Rivendell has a setup like that. 2 x 1 with a Melvin. He manually shifts the front. Seems like a weird idea but unique for sure.

Nash

[Brian Campbell]

Maybe this might be worth reading? Not sure if it fits the question but it might be worth doing some more learnin' on it.

http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/schlumpf/faq.getriebe.engl.htm

[johnboy]

An aside maybe....Tom Cuthbertson talked about using SA 3 speed for cyclocross. Bike Tripping-Ten Speed Press.

[Thomas McCause]

 I have a 

dingle speed that works wonderfully...

it does require a "manual shift" 

another idea, though somewhat more technical would be

http://blog.jonesbikes.com/6-speed-cassettes/

[nash...@gmail.com]

I remember seeing a schlumpf drive at my old shop. Kinda cool but too weird for me. I currently have my cross check setup as a 2 x 9 with no front der. I didn't have the correct shim so I left the der off and I may just leave it that way. Bif ring for commuting, then nudge the chain over with toe for hills or off road. One less cable ftw.

Nash

[dougP]

Is anyone aware of a 3 speed hub that fits Rivendell's drop out spacing?  IIRC ithat's usually 132.5 on geared bikes.  My personal experience with converting a steel geared bike to 3 speed required finding an axle for 126 mm OLD as the standard for the old S-As was 120 mm. 

dougP

[Eric Norris]

Sturmey Archer hubs are spaced at 120mm, but they come with spacers that allow use in wider frames. I have one on a frame with 126mm spacing and it works fine.

--Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
@Campyonlyguy

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[jeffrey kane]

Here's an interesting Instagram post from the folks at Old Spokes Home in Burlington, VT:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BbPtcscl8Zr/?hl=en&taken-by=oldspokeshome

It's about three speeds, in crappy conditions ... I'd call it a resource

[Deacon Patrick]

Fascinating, Jeffery! Thanks. I called them. He said the mechanics ride all kinds of MTB trails with the Sturmey Archer 3-speed and it holds up just fine — but these are lads who work on bikes all the time and I couldn’t get a picture of where on the spectrum of “maintenance free” to “well, yeah, we fix up up every ride and sometimes on the trail” they fall. Grin. I’ll stick with my 1x9, ridden as a poser-five just shifting two gears at a time, with the plan of ss it if the ice freezes the derailure. My middle gear is 50”, so perfect for too hard up, just right down in sloppy conditions. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Jim M.]

The Iditabikers use mostly derailleurs, so there must be some kind of freeze protection. I know there are low-temp lubricants but I don't know if they've been used on bikes. Perhaps walrus blubber on the pivots?

[Patrick Moore]

Philip: what rings/cogs did you, or would you, use for a 2X2? I agree that, once you get into chain tensioners and chainkeepers, you might as well use derailleurs. 

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[Patrick Moore]

You can get the S3X, or could, in a 130 mm OL spacing. I have one, set up with a freewheel.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Jim, Extreme cold poses the issue of needing lighter lubricant, but does not post the challenge of thaw, mist, freeze. That’s a very different issue.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Wasn't there an icebikelist? A Google, vb, intr, calls up this: http://www.icebike.org/the-history-of-ice-biking-and-winter-cycling/

And this: https://joeclark.org/icebike.html

I see that this was updated as recently as 2005 ...

I recall a back page feature in the Montreal Gazette or whatever big English Sunday paper sold in la Ville de Kebec almost 40 years ago about an intrepid winter cyclist in Quebec City, who made the memorable remark, "I don't even get warmed up before I've gone 10 miles." I recall being vaguely envious. Kebec was in the snow belt and got an average of 13 feet a year.

Of course, Deek joins the 2 impossible criteria of riding in very cold weather, and riding in very mountainous terrain, so he's got his own set of problems. 

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of Joe Clark and Kebec: I recall a CBC satirical group mercilessly poking fun at Conservative Prime Minister (very briefly) Joe Clark back in the day, but that's neither here nor there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pktt77AJjNo

Patrick "Be still my fervid imagination" Moore

[Shawn Granton]

A bit late to this, sorry. But the Deacon asked me off-list about Three Speed Mountain Bike Resources, and as a (semi-competent) go-to for things three speeds, I figure I should say something.

Alas, there is no "go-to" list for three speed mountain biking, but to cover some of the points brought up in this thread:

• Why just three for an IGH (internally geared hub) vs 5, 11, 14, infinity? Well, I think Deacon Patrick nailed it on the head when talking about simplicity. Yes, you will not get the range of something bigger (whether IGH or derailleur) but you think less about shifting. Not as "pure" as a single speed, but not as "corrupt" as a 3x11 setup. Also, three speed hubs are cheap, relatively speaking (not counting the cost of building a wheel if need be.) Heck, you can go to your local bike co-op and probably find a bin of old AW hubs and get a functional one for next-to-nothing. You aren't going to find that with a bigger IGH. And even if you do, there are other costs: I "scored" an Alfine 11 hub for nothing a couple years back, back when they were still like $600 MSRP. But it didn't come with a shifter, and that's like $150 alone. Heck, you could get the AW hub plus shifter and other bits for that much.
• The difference between older (pre Sunrace) Sturmey Archer AW three speed hubs vs new (Sunrace). Yes, the old AW hub had that annoying "neutral" that could happen, but that was usually either because a) the cable/indicator chain was incorrectly adjusted b) standing up when pedalling (frame flexes and pulls cable out of adjustment) or c) a combination of the two. And even the "mediocre" AW hubs of the later Sturmey Archer years are still good. There are plenty of bikes still running old AW hubs. The one on my Superbe is from 1954 and runs great. But I also don't pedal while standing up! ;-)
• Torque. The problem with most IGHs are their tolerance of torque. For most old hubs, it's not recommended to go under a 2:1 ratio. Some people have gone under and not had any problems. A few destroyed their hubs. I think a lot has to do with "rider input", like weight and riding style. A lighter rider will probably have less issues with destroying a hub if they go under the 2:1 ratio
• Gearing. An old AW is simple, and limiting. The low you're going to safely get is going to be upper-30's (gear-inches). That's not the low-low of mid-teens you can get from some modern drivetrains, but it is not bad. Portland isn't exactly flat, and I climb the hills with my Raleigh Superbe. The other day I went up Mount Tabor with grades as high as 7%, and managed. I did a tour a few years back in the Driftless Region of SW Wisconsin with Pondero and GravelDoc on a loaded three speed and managed some 8% grinds. No, it's not as optimal as the 15 gear-inch bike climb, and no, I wouldn't do a sustained 20 mile climb with a 7% grade, but it worked for what I did.
• Those Old Spokes Home 3 Speed MTBs: They look SWEET! I want one now. Deacon, maybe just order one of theirs for experimentation? ;-) And I highly doubt they would sell bikes like that if they needed constant servicing. They've proven reliable for them, and they put them through the paces, including winter.
• About winter: Yes, AW hubs work in extreme conditions. My friend Keith has ridden AW equipped bikes through the dead of Edmonton winter for years. He does use a lighter weight oil for those months (which is one of the advantages to the older oil-filled AW hubs of the pre-Sunrace takeover.)

So, should one experiment? Yes! 

Now, I don't think a three speed is going to fulfill all the needs for a "modern" mountain bike, especially if one is going to do lots of steep climbing. But people have been bashing about on three speeds for rough stuff for eons, like the UK based Rough Stuff Fellowship. They've been going at it since the 50's. Back then I'm sure most of the member's bikes had three speed hubs, yet they went all sorts of crazy places in the English countryside, up rough and rude paths. Of course, there was some pushing involved, and they didn't expect to do 8% grades at a high cadence. But they still did it.

And anyone who has read this far and is still interested: Seek out the work of Geoff Apps, considered the father of UK mountain biking, working at the same time as the Repack folks. His custom machines usually used drum brakes and hub gears, and he pedalled through all sorts of terrain and conditions.

Finally, why can't that Paul Melvin only take a cog up to 20 teeth? ;-)

yours,

Shawn

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[Patrick Moore]

Shawn -- very interesting, informative; it makes me want a 3 speed off road bike!

The only thing that gives me pause is: don't stand in 2nd gear. Heck much of my climbing is standing. Is this a universal rule for all IGHs or just for pre-Sunrace AWs? And surely some of those rough stuffers and time trialists stood when climbing?

I had the Geoff Apps site bookmarked: https://clelandcycles.wordpress.com/evolution/  

Surely he stood sometimes, too?

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[Philip Williamson]

Patrick, I would start with one of these setups for a 35mm 700c wheel, but the derailleur doesn’t require an exact match. That’s just my OCD:
36/42 x 16/22 = 45” 53” 62” 72”
36/44 x 16/24 = 41” 51” 62” 76”

I might even fool around with a reverse pull fd, so the up/down of downtube shifters would correspond to the out/in of the chain.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[Patrick Moore]

Those are very usable gear ranges and indeed, you get much more range with a 2 X 2 than even most 1 X 3s. But what's this talk of derailleurs? Isn't this for a Sheldon-type shift by finger system?

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[Shawn Granton]

Patrick- The older (pre Sunrace) ones were the "slippy" ones. The "No Neutral" ones from Sunrace shouldn't theoretically slip.

-Shawn

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On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Shawn -- very interesting, informative; it makes me want a 3 speed off road bike!

The only thing that gives me pause is: don't stand in 2nd gear. Heck much of my climbing is standing. Is this a universal rule for all IGHs or just for pre-Sunrace AWs? And surely some of those rough stuffers and time trialists stood when climbing?

I had the Geoff Apps site bookmarked: https://clelandcycles.wordpress.com/evolution/  

Surely he stood sometimes, too?

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks; good to know.

I've got a second wheel for my '03 Curt, with a S3X with a freewheel (70/53/44); rather wish I'd used a Sunrace AW for a lower bottom gear (70/53/39). But I hardly ever use that wheel; the 17/19 Dingle gives me 70" and 63" ...

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:36 PM, Shawn Granton <urbanadven...@gmail.com> wrote:

Patrick- The older (pre Sunrace) ones were the "slippy" ones. The "No Neutral" ones from Sunrace shouldn't theoretically slip.

-Shawn

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On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Shawn -- very interesting, informative; it makes me want a 3 speed off road bike!

The only thing that gives me pause is: don't stand in 2nd gear. Heck much of my climbing is standing. Is this a universal rule for all IGHs or just for pre-Sunrace AWs? And surely some of those rough stuffers and time trialists stood when climbing?

I had the Geoff Apps site bookmarked: https://clelandcycles.wordpress.com/evolution/  

Surely he stood sometimes, too?

[Deacon Patrick]

Here is the response I received from the MTBr IGH forum:
http://forums.mtbr.com/internal-gear-hubs/3-speed-drum-brake-questions-1060160.html

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting, and I for one will be very interested in hearing your experience with AW and drum brakes.

So the AW/drum and the Dynohub/drum combo come in at under 7 lb the pair.

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[Philip Williamson]

Derailleurs are funnier. Literally, that's the reason. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 9:31:37 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Those are very usable gear ranges and indeed, you get much more range with a 2 X 2 than even most 1 X 3s. But what's this talk of derailleurs? Isn't this for a Sheldon-type shift by finger system?

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

Patrick, I would start with one of these setups for a 35mm 700c wheel, but the derailleur doesn’t require an exact match. That’s just my OCD:
36/42 x 16/22 = 45” 53” 62” 72”
36/44 x 16/24 = 41” 51” 62” 76”

I might even fool around with a reverse pull fd, so the up/down of downtube shifters would correspond to the out/in of the chain.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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[Patrick Moore]

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xMaalRGsxk

Or a 2 ring/2 cog system that needs no idler pulley: https://youtu.be/luQ3VRKZiN4?t=63

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[Philip Williamson]

That orange thing is RAD. Not funnier than two derailleurs two gears, but eye opening. I feel the low gear would have to be VERY low to countenance pedaling backwards up a hill. 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Revisiting this thread with a slight deviation but still 3 speed related and hoping those of you with more Sturmey Archer 3 speeding experience may help clarify:

Are vintage SA rear hubs axles compatible with modern 10mm horizontals by simply replacing with appropriately sized new anti-rotation washers? 

 

I realize this question ignores over lock nut and frame spacing… I have considered this as well but before pursuing any further I wanted to at least confirm the issue with the old narrower flatted axle vs modern 10mm is a non-issue if the correct washers will take care of it?   I have an old 114 spaced AW hub (still built into the original steel wheel) and recently considered whether or not I could rebuild into a 700c alloy rim to fit 120mm spaced frame(s)?

 

Doing so would provide a 3 speed wheel that could fit both my Milwaukee single speed & old Raleigh frame that I THOUGHT would take the stock 590/650A/26x1-3/8 wheel but instead fits 700c with x-long reach brakes and already has 10mm rear horizontals.

 

If this works it’ll not only bring 3 speeding back into my life but help push some other conversion ideas out of my mind and only require rebuilding one wheel.  If using a Velocity dyad rim it would also provide a matching rear to an otherwise unmatched spare 700c dyad front wheel I already have.

Thanks,

Brian Cole

Lawrenceville NJ 

[Patrick Moore]

Brian: As far as I know, the old SA axles work fine in modern dropouts with the old rotation washers; I've used 2 types of these, heavy, serrated washers and the type with extensions that fit into the dropout slot. I don't recall ever having to replace the old ones with new ones.

FWIW, I was told recently by a very experienced bike shop owner and long time builder or at least refurbisher that squeezing even 3 mm a side by putting a 114 mm OL hub into a 120 mm spaced frame may risk cracking the dropouts. (I think said person is on list; if he should wish to out himself, perhaps he will clarify or correct me if I've misstated.) I've thought of putting a 114 mm AM hub into a 120 mm frame myself.

Aside: Interesting (to me at any rate): ( have a pair of Old Stock SA wingnuts that very cleverly have the antirotation washers built in. Easy peasy!

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[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Thanks Patrick,

My intention is to see about spacing the hub out to 120mm as long as I could get around the axle diameter... this would allow greater cross compatibility between a couple frames and basically add an alternate wheelset that could be rotated with a 120 flip flop wheelset so I could try ss, fixed, and 3 speed with ease.

But then again, although the Raleigh does take a larger wheel and dropouts already at 10mm it is still closer to 114 spacing so i should give the hub a test fit as is anyway and if re spacing the AW to 120 isn’t easy peasy then I should probably just keep the Raleigh at 114 and build the AW wheel for that frame and keep the 120 singlespeed, single.

With the Raleigh already taking the 700c flip flop wheels with 35c and room for fenders I wanted to respace this from 114 to 120 and try to maximize its compatibility with my other frames.

I’ll probably take the conservative approach and not squeeze the 120 frame to fit the 114 hub since I already have a 120 wheelset that fits but if I could get them all to match that would be ideal ... but maybe more trouble than it’s worth.

If it could be done I was thinking of using the 3 speed on the Milwaukee for a bit and getting the 27.2 seatpost mounted shifter and running the cable along the seatstay rather than along the frame with pulley for s cleaner look.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I should add that the 26x1-3/8 wheels include the AW rear hub and a Dyno front.  These came off a much too small (for me) 21" Raleigh Sports that I picked up in rather nice condition as a mate for the ladies step through Sports I initially picked up for my wife.  The step thru was in much worse shape and I did more of a proper restoration on that one; had the old hubs rebuilt into new Sun CR18 590/650A rims, Schwalbe delta cruisers, new saddle, and used the best stock remaining components from both to bring it back to life.  Then I had some fun with the diamond frame and built it up for myself with xlong seatpost, dirt drop stem, moustache bars.... then again with wide bullhorns and front basket (the deep clem/bosco basket Riv stocks) and although very fun it was still just way too small.  I later found this oddball 25" Raleigh "Deluxe" frame that was much bigger but still looked like a Sports/Superbe with locking fork and everything and I suspected it may have just been a mislabeled/mismeasured 23" Superbe but still bigger than my 21" so I planned to move the wheels/drivetrain and other parts to the bigger frame. Upon delivery I discovered the frame really is 25" c to c and will fit even better than expected.... but not what I expected regarding the wheels... the fork already takes a modern 9mm front (although spaced 95mm and needing to be spread to 100) and as already noted 10mm in the rear (and these appear to be original and not filed or converted).  It also has different lugs than the usual 3 speeds and a Carlton/Worksop fully wrapped seatstay/seatube junction.  With the greater wheel clearance and modern dropout diameters (fits 700x35 with Tektro r559s) I abandoned the 26x1-3/8 three speed and dyno plan (would have eventually included rebuilding these hubs into new Sun CR18's as well) and instead considered just respacing this to accept my other 120mm track wheels more easily as an alternate ss frame.  Then the above noted AW and new 700c combo hit me... if I could get it to match the 120x10mm spacing I'll have an extra IGH wheel to play around with the same two frames with no other compromises to be made (once the frame is realigned and respaced and the wheel rebuilt and respaced.)

In another moment of weakness I also nearly bought the fixed/fixed 120spaced 26x1-3/8 SunCR18 wheel from Harris Cyclery to try this 590bsd wheel size in the Milwaukee singlespeed (since I have a second set of like new cream delta cruisers that were intended for the new 3 speed project.) I declined after I thought more about the added expense of a new 26x1-3/8 front wheel to match and also after the realization that the delta cruisers (which measure closer to 35 rather than the listed 38) didn't really add much vs. the 700x33's I already fit comfortably in the Milwaukee and this would then lower the bottom bracket about 1.5cm and increase risk of pedal strike which otherwise has not been a concern.