Cheap Clem substitutes?.

[Patrick Moore]

After typing that heading, I paused to ask myself if the question is kosher for this list. But I think it is; it has to do with my desire to get a fat tired bike with large bb drop for my daughter.

I can't afford a Clem, but I think the Clem would be ideal for her: pushing 15, very occasional rider who just the other day suggested that I take her riding (tears to my eyes!); the landscape the bosque near my house which is laced with nice trails, but with sandy soil; a bike that can accommodate 60 mm tires and ride decently on flat dirt but also on pavement.

If I do this right, daughter may in 10 years commission 6 Rivendell customs, so who knows.

1990s mountain bikes are a possible -- she has a cheap very early aughts .

Diamond Back mtb -- but really, she will be more comfortable with a frame with far more bb drop.

Build: sprung saddle; swept back bar; wide range 1Xn gearing.

Use: rides with Dad, riding to nearby school with 1000 lb backpack.

Ideas? Thanks.

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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

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[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add: others have suggested: Isla bike; VO Piolet.

Lowish bb very useful. Again, fat and tall tires.

[Frank Brose]

Might be packing a little to much in the backpack don't you think Patrick? I have an older early 90'S Cannondale Red Shred set up Nitto dirt Drop stem and moustache bars, blackburn rear rack and upgraded wheels,rd and headset I'd part with if you can't find what you're looking for. But then again you're back to a mtb.

[Joe Bernard]

You're reverse-engineering what Grant did by creating the Clem. He made a semi-TIGed lower-cost Riv for people who've been scouring Craigslist for late-'80s/early-'90s mtbs, then spending more than they expected to make them into functional townies. There's still plenty of them out there, and I know you're up to the refurbish task, but low bottom brackets are hard to find in that type of bicycle.

[Bill Lindsay]

My advice is that if your daughter wants to ride with you, and your daughter has a bike, why not just ride with your daughter?  Her current bike sounds fine.  If there is something that makes her current bike insufficient to ride with her dad, take care of that, but until then, this might be a just ride situation. 

My 15 year son old said "Don't bother dad, mom's Yves Gomez fits me fine!  I'll just take her bike.  When's the next campout?"

Bill Mt-Diablo-Reservations Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Deacon Patrick]

+1 for ride whatcha got. That will teach her a lot (and you as well), and may motivate her to know what she wants and work out how she's going to work toward it. I also sent you a PM.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Edwin W]

I agree with what everyone else is leaning toward: ride what you got. Bring her into the process. Does she want to change one component, such as cockpit (I know, several components) pedals, saddle or tires? Indulge her.

I am always trying out new things and forcing my kids to get to the next level of bike or ride something I think is better for them, so know I don't always practice what I preach!

Edwin

[Utah]

My daughter rides a Surly Cross Check.  High bottom bracket but takes wide tires.  The low handle bars don't bother her young bones one bit.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 4:28:06 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

It's real easy to turn a kid's interest in going for a ride into a new bike project for us to fiddle with. Which is great if the kid is on board, but more often than not they're fine with the one they already have.

[Belopsky]

Do you have a budget in mind? Do you already have parts? A Piolet build will not be cheaper than a Clem, especially with the pre-order right now, unless you have parts to build up the Piolet.

[Mark in Beacon]

The problem, as laid out I believe in the wonderful Clem brochure, or maybe in one of the blug posts, is that making a vintage bike work well is often expensive, even as the bikes themselves become more rare and often less pristine. And in the end you still do not have the bb height you desire.

I am in the midst of an experiment, making myself an inexpensive AtlaniBomba kind of creature. For that, in your case, you would hunt down a small size vintage 700c hybrid, possibly step-through. I am using a Trek 750 Multitrack. Move the canti bosses to take 26" wheels with fatties and voila, a roadish ride that handles big rubber! I don't know what your local framebuilder situation is, but if you snagged one of these hybrids for let's say $200, then paid a framebuilder $75 to change the seatstay bosses and found a suitable 26" swap-out for the fork at say $100, plus misc parts (tires, brake pads, new handlebars) at another $200, that comes to, let's round it at $600 for touch up paint for the rear stays. You may be able to do it all cheaper, with your access to a used bicycle shop.

I can also heartily recommend the Isla bike line. I bought one for my birthday this March and gave it to my son. He was surprised, and I can't get him off the thing. Bought it with fenders, rack, and a second set of knobby tires for trail rides. He is only six, so I got him the 24" model. I expect to get two solid years from it, then pass it on to a cousin or sell it. I paid about $650 shipped with all the extra goodies, and despite it being a financial stretch, it was more that worth it to me. For a bit more, you can get a similar model in 26". Depending on your daughter's pbh, it could work great, though they are currently out of stock (they now have a U.S. distributor) : http://www.islabikes.com/product/bikes/beinn-26-large-age-10/

I was planning to post about this. It may just be my foggy mixed up old brain, but I could swear at one point Rivendell was considering a kid's bike. In fact I think maybe it was the original idea behind Clem? or Rosco? Anyway, I can understand why that would not be particularly financially prudent for a company like Riv. But I have been lately musing that a collaboration between Islabike and Rivendell would be kind of awesome. Islabike gets a lot right, but I think with Grant in the process, they could really hit one out of the park.  (Kickstand plate, longer stays, handlebar design, etc.) That said, the difference between the Islabike and his second-hand Hot Rocks (now they only come with a shock unless single speed) is night and day. If anyone wants more feedback on this bike, feel free to contact me off list.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 6:28:06 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

A Brooklyn is another option. I don't know if Grant is still involved with the company but he was at one point, and his design ideas like low bottom brackets should be present here.

http://www.brooklynbicycleco.com/

[Alex Wirth]

We just started carrying the Brooklyn Bicycle Co. brand in our shop as an inexpensive introduction to useful all-around bicycles.  The Roebling and Lorimer do not disappoint with clearance for 40mm tires with fenders and a host of braze-ons.  Sure I might change a couple things here and there...but for a fully geared bike with chromoly frame... sold through a bike shop at $499....the value can't be beat really (this is a good and bad thing IMO). 

Having said all that, I say save up a little more money and buy a Clem.  It's something special that your daughter may cherish the rest of her days.  They are truly a beautiful bicycle and ride like a dream.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 6:28:06 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for the replies. As you can tell, I am "planning" as I talk -- IOW, "What, me planning?" 

I think that, being reasonable instead of impulsive, the smart thing to do is to take the nice wide, tubeless wheelset from the Race Lite and install it on Catie's cheap Diamond Back, and learn how she likes it. If she does, so that it really warrants a new bike, then I like the idea of a 700C hybrid refigured with fat 26" wheels; obviously a disk brake bike would be the obvious candidate.

My obsession with BB height comes from my own experience with the otherwise impeccable Race Lite: with 56 mm actual tires (just shy of 27" overall diameter) I, an experienced rider, feel as if I am on stilts. I want my daughter to experience the security of a lower bb frame along with the float and low resistance of excellent, fat tires.

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

IOW, compared even to the Fargo, the Race Lite, otherwise impeccably neutral, feels high and "tippy" and insecure in slow, tight turns. That, to me, would be a great turn off if I were a new rider getting an early taste of what riding can be like.

Depending on how well the Matthews turns out, I may sell the RL frameset and use the bits on a bike for Catie.

[Mark in Beacon]

I think if she cottons to riding again, I would second this suggestion. The Clementine is an awesome bicycle and worth a bit of initial financial pain. Unless she were to get into seriously competitive riding, this bike would truly last a lifetime and then some. It is also now available as a frameset again.

[Patrick Moore]

Mark: That does make sense. I just bought her a new MacBook Air that, I was very clear to tell her, has to last her until college, and the Clem would be a bike that will ditto. We'll see if riding becomes a habit or if it's just a fancy.

And perhaps by that time I'll have a bit more $$.

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[Deacon Patrick]

The Clementines we bought our two oldest lassies are the only vehicles we will buy they and they know it. That's with one of them at 15.5 years old.

With abandon,

Patrick

[masmojo]

I bought my daughter a Clementine and she's probably 5 or 6 years away from being able to ride it! That said my son can ride it now; he has a stingray that he likes and when he outgrows that he'll be big enough to ride any of my bikes so I don't sweat bikes for him. The Clementine should be the only bike my daughter needs in her lifetime.
Now regarding your dilemma, I come from riding a succession of custom cruisers, Klunkers, mountain bikes and other road/dirt mongrels. I would think an old Diamond Back would be almost ideal. Having come from the riding background I have AND owning 2 Clementines I can tell you that the Clementine rides much like a light weight cruiser. The seating position, bottom bracket height, wide tires, etc. I am even in the process if taking my Boscos off and installing a vintage set of alloy cruiser bars in an attempt to dial the setup in more to my liking.
To cut to the chase a little bit, you might just try to find a lightweight cruiser with either an internally geared hub or derailleur.
I think a Surly or Piolet are good choices as well, but for what those cost you can just get a Clementine.
Also most vintage mixtes would probably work as well!

[William Graves]

This may be heresy, but it might be worth looking at the Trek Allant WSD.  It get s good reviews from bicyclesfortherestfous and Kent Peterson.  It comes with 700x32 tires, fenders, a rack and decent components (Acera rear der and Tektro brakes), has a fairly upright riding position, and lists at $550.   I don't know about the bb.  It is my 13 year old daughter's likely next bike.  We can't swing a Riv, but I would not buy one for my kids even if we could.  We live in an urban area and I want them to use their bikes -- ride them to school and do errands and visit friends.  There will be a lot less heartbreak in the event of theft or loss.   

Bill

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 6:28:06 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Bill, but we want something that will take tires at least 50 mm wide. I see that the Allant comes with 32 mm tires, which makes me doubt it will take 50s even without fenders.

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[Brian Campbell]

Something like this with a different stem & bars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trek-930-/141974914561?hash=item210e5d4601:g:vrsAAOSw8RJXDO-K

The bb height if its an issue, can just be accounted for with a slightly lower saddle height. Put a bash guard on in place of the outer ring or leave the chain in the middle ring (36th I think) and removed the front derailleur entirely. When she out grows it, you will be able to re-coup a good chunk of your money if need be. These frames easily fit  26x2.25 Schwalbe Racing Ralphs and could have a set of fenders installed. 

[Mark in Beacon]

Hey, I never know which of your bike for Catie threads I should respond to--,maybe this in fact is more appropriate to BOB. But anyway I bought a CB-1 for my now x a few years back. Sadly she has not maintained it, as you can see in these recent photos. Aside from the slightly wanky setup for the rear brake, this is a nifty little sweet ride. Pretty sure it clears decent rubber, and I know the x could put a foot down, so I don't think it was spec'd with a low bb drop, though I am by no means certain about that. I also find that for casual riding, my saddle height can go down a bit with no adverse results. If I thought I had a prayer of extracting it I would offer it up. (She seems to prefer the rootbeer Raleigh Sport I got her...) I think Bridgestone also made a cheaper cruiserish model called a BUB (Bridgestone Urban Bike) that took real fat tires and fenders.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 6:28:06 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Dave Johnston]

I would think a used Long Haul Trucker would be ideal.

I would avoid a cruiser type frame. I have one and its just a dog to ride. I love biking and it makes me hate biking more than 5mi on a boardwalk.

These Vitus city bikes look pretty cool, some like the Dee 29 come stock with 29x2.1 tires. Most US city bikes are 700x35 with not much room for more. Disc brakes allow a smaller wheel for lower BB if required. The link below is a UK retailer. Not sure about US distributors or UK to US shipping fees.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/vitus-bikes/hybrid-city-bikes?utm_source=crchub&utm_medium=crchubnews&utm_campaign=vituscitybikebikeradar2016



-Dave J

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 6:28:06 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[cbone97]

Look at the Specialized Roll models.  Aluminum (gasp!), but in other ways Clemish.  They'll take REALLY fat 650b's.

On Monday, April 25, 2016 at 5:28:06 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: