"We’ll have “classic” single speed frames again...."

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tc

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Nov 9, 2017, 8:00:13 PM11/9/17
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...says Will in the November 9th (today) Blug post.

Bill Lindsay

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Nov 9, 2017, 8:16:25 PM11/9/17
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I agree with Will that vertical dropouts are preferable for ALMOST everybody.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

Patrick Moore

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Nov 9, 2017, 9:46:43 PM11/9/17
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We’ll have “classic” single speed frames again—but if you ride dirt and carry stuff and climb super steep hills and don’t have a bike-purist hang up, get a frame with vertical drop outs and set it up like the picture above.

Is this said by way of opposition, so that the "classic" single speed frame will have horizontals? I hope so, since I may be in the market for one, if it is a road type bike. The "but" would seem to indicate "yes" to the dropout question..



On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 6:00 PM, tc <tdc...@gmail.com> wrote:
...says Will in the November 9th (today) Blug post.

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Christopher Murray

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Nov 9, 2017, 10:03:19 PM11/9/17
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Is this BLUG a response to the “3-Speed MTBing Resources?” thread? It seems too much of a coincidence.

Cheers,
Chris

George Cline

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Nov 9, 2017, 10:05:10 PM11/9/17
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Sorry, but why on Earth are vertical dropouts preferable on a single speed?

That makes a chain tensioner, eccentric bottom bracket or rear hub mandatory. No thanks.

George in NoCal

Clayton.sf

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Nov 9, 2017, 10:06:34 PM11/9/17
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This is silly. It is a single speed or a manual shifter bike. For single speed you need an EBB, sliders, or horizontatal drops. Adding a "dangler" to it is like saying "I am not shifting my derailer bike so it is a single speed".

regarding vertical drops, yes better, but not as good as through axles once you enter disc territory. Better for caliper braked derailer bikes though, IF the frame is straight enough.

Clayton Scott
ST, CA

tc

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Nov 9, 2017, 11:10:25 PM11/9/17
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Regarding dropout style, here is Sheldon's QuickBeam page comments:
The rear fork ends are definitely a good-news/bad-news feature. Current fashion seems to require the atavistic rear-opening design for singlespeed/fixed-gear bikes, even though dropout type (front opening) fork ends are much more convenient to use. The good news is that the Quickbeam's rear axle slots are not truly horizontal, but rather are angled to be roughly perpendiular to the seat-stays. This means that you can take advantage of the long adjustment slots to use different gear combinations without having to re-adjust your rear brake shoes every time you move the wheel. That's a big advantage!

Patrick Moore

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Nov 10, 2017, 12:21:51 AM11/10/17
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The best rear fork end for ss or fixed is the long horizontal, sloped so that your rear brake pads (if you use a rear caliper) remain more or less aligned with the rim when you move the wheel back and forth. 

I'd much rather have track ends on a ss/fixed frame than verticals, but I'd much rather have long horizontals than track ends.

Rivendell, please take note!

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nash...@gmail.com

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Nov 10, 2017, 9:11:56 AM11/10/17
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Why not just use a derailer with the cable removed? Or just leave the cable attached. To shift between single speeds just move the shifter a little.

Eric Daume

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Nov 10, 2017, 9:52:27 AM11/10/17
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Agree with Patrick. My old Cross Check and my new Black Mountain Monstercross both have this sort of dropout. It's my favorite by far for a rim brake single speed.

lum gim fong

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Nov 10, 2017, 10:17:10 AM11/10/17
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Glad to see another Rivsingle.
Looking forward to seeing what it will be.
I rode in Florida for a couple months and I think I only used three gears on me Sam.
If I lived there I might look into this.
But I live in MD so I use my 16-speed Rivbike and my 21-speed Rivbike to get around.
Some LBII here sell singles but I don't know how anyone rides hills with them unless they are very strong.

Patrick Moore

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Nov 10, 2017, 1:24:37 PM11/10/17
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Has anyone heard scuttlebutt besides that on the Blug? Will this be a Quickbeam or a ss Roadeo?

I'd love a 3d Rivendell for that AM hub that has been gnawing at my conscience for several years ... but a roady type one.

lconley

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Nov 10, 2017, 1:28:56 PM11/10/17
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On 10/23

In about 6 wks, by about Dec 10, we'll have 20 total/6 sizes UP TO 59cm of the Frank Jones Sr, a singlespeed frame designed for Blue Lug, our Tokyo dealer. We made 20 extras for us.
• seat lug (new socket style, but made for 3-deg upslope) and head lugs (custom style)
• fillet-brazed bb
• 28.6mm min triangle tubes (seat and top tbes usually are, but for FRANK, the downtube is, too).
• clears 38mm tire. clears 33.333 w/fender  (as long as feners are not aluminum)
• 120 rear spacing, new rear dropouts---track style...two eyes for rak & fendr. No der tab. Angle like Quickbeam's, long, too.
* brake reach is 59mm (necessary for 38mm tire). Brake options? Tektro 559, Paul or Compass centerpull, or new Dia-Compe 610 centerpull (not out yet)
• stay & fork rack mounts

Sizes and QTY we're getting:
53cm (7)
55cm (5)
57cm (6)
59cm (7)

The frames are designed to be comfortable fits with drop bars, but it's more of a classic fit than a RIVFIT 2017.8. In our experience, any drop-bar bike can take an Albatross bar easily,,,so FRANK can, too.

Sizing by PBH:
Mark's PBH is 82 and he'd ride a 53. Mine's 85 and I'm getting a 59 that I wish was a 58.

This is a paved-road, light-load singlespeed frame, not a "Manny bike" ! More info will follow. It's going to cost about $1,400 for frame-fork-hs-seat post (27.2)

G


On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:24:37 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Patrick Moore

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Nov 10, 2017, 1:47:02 PM11/10/17
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Oh, I shouldn't, but if it's a roady-Riv, I want one. And 120 OL! 

I know Riv deprecates tt length, but I don't. I need the size with a 56 to 57 cm tt, this for 73 sta, and adjusted according to the frame's actual sta. Anyone?

I don't know my pbh, but my Rivs are 57 and 58 c-c and work fine.

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George Schick

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Nov 10, 2017, 2:07:57 PM11/10/17
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If he's getting a 59cm that he wishes was a 58 then why are they gonna be made in odd sizing instead of even?  If I bought one of these it'd probably have to be a 55 which I'd be wishing was a 54, because that's the size I normally ride (and since this is going to be a "paved-road, light-load" single speed, I'm assuming 700c wheels).

Ian A

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Nov 10, 2017, 2:47:27 PM11/10/17
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This question is meant for the sake of curiosity, not critism, but I really like the concept of this bicycle, except for the tire clearance limits. 45mm tires with fenders would be groovy. The Atlantis achieves this, with an acceptable Q for most riders.

I suppose the limiting factor is the side pull brake, but the sidepull Sam accomodates larger tires.

Again, not a critism.

IanA

iamkeith

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Nov 10, 2017, 6:03:49 PM11/10/17
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You didn't actually ask a question. ;-) But from my observations, I think Riv has always correlated fatter tires with larger loads. Or at least a propensity for a rider to try to haul more than they should. So i think that if a particular model is designed for unloaded, fast riding and uses thinner wall tubing, they intentionally limit the tire clearance in order to reduce that temptation. The legolas might be an exception, but it is probably delivered with all sorts of disclaimers. That make sense?

Joe Bernard

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Nov 10, 2017, 6:26:07 PM11/10/17
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Plus the bike is designed for a different market that seems to be looking for thin tubes and ultralight wheels. Blue Lug's buyers may not want to run skinny tires in a frame with huge clearances.

Bill Lindsay

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Nov 10, 2017, 6:47:11 PM11/10/17
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The fact they refer to a forthcoming brake, a new rev of Dia Compe 610, makes it sound like the frame was designed to work with that particular brake which imparts a clearance.  

Mark in Beacon

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Nov 10, 2017, 7:31:33 PM11/10/17
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" it's more of a classic fit than a RIVFIT 2017"

I would say they are likely to be more or less square, so you'll be good to go with the 57.
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Ian A

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Nov 11, 2017, 1:03:50 AM11/11/17
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Good point, I didn't actually frame a question! In that case, why do models like the Rodeo and Blue Lug SS need to have more limited clearance than, say the Hillborne, considering they all can use the same model of long reach brakes?

I would guess the answer lies in the many nuances of geometry snd each small change can have a large affect on the ride.

IanA/Edmonton Canada where wider tires are welcome on our winter ravaged roads.

Philip Williamson

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Nov 11, 2017, 11:05:51 AM11/11/17
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A bigger tire also changes the ride. I had BG Rock’n’Roads on my Quickbeam for a while. I liked it, but when I went back to 38s the bike turned in a bit quicker and was a bit more sprightly. It felt like itself.

The Singular with 38s turned in too fast, and settled down with 2” tires.

I’m a big proponent of track ends for wide tires + fenders + singlespeed. I have both, and for me, wheel removal and installation is way easier with a track end.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

Belopsky

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Nov 11, 2017, 11:23:13 AM11/11/17
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I'm looking forward to this. I don't need another frame, but I sold my Vigorelli because it was limited to a 30mm tire at best.
This is 2x the cost..curious on the geometry.

Pbh of 83 so sounds like 53 would be the way to go..I'm guessing something like a 55 tt..

iamkeith

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Nov 12, 2017, 9:19:44 AM11/12/17
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On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 11:03:50 PM UTC-7, Ian A wrote:
> In that case, why do models like the Rodeo and Blue Lug SS need to have more limited clearance than, say the Hillborne, considering they all can use the same model of long reach brakes?
>
> IanA/Edmonton Canada where wider tires are welcome on our winter ravaged roads.

Ian, i didn't compare but, if that's accurate, it kind of reinforces my theory. The hillbourne is somewhat stout and able to take racks for small loads and is probably perfect for something like a credit card tour. The roadeo (and presumably this blue lug single speed?) is made for spirited, shorter rides and racing. My guess is that the critical clearance-limitation point of the roadeo is at the chainstays, even if the two bikes use the same brakes. They "could" but probably don't "want" to shape or bend things around enough to fit a bigger tire.

On the other hand, as joe mentioned, they probably have to manage some aesthetic expectations from the target buyer and, in the case of the roadeo / blue lug, that might mean straight, skinny chainstays that allow for the lowest possible Q factor.

And i suppose your point is valid too, since the hub spacing is narrower than 135 on both bikes. That alone would affect chainstay clearance if the stays are straight.

My quickbeam, (which is even too limited for my preference, for the same reasons as you) has a large crimped area at the tire location that I'm assuming doesn't exist on the roadeo, because of it's potential stiffening effect.

Bill Lindsay

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Nov 12, 2017, 10:15:36 AM11/12/17
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The Roadeo has 55mm brake clearance and does not take Tektro 559 brakes. The Roadeo takes Tektro 539 brakes. The Frank Jones Sr has 59mm brake clearance and that’s near the minimum for Tektro 559 brakes. The Hillborne has 65mm brake clearance and that is near the maximum for Tektro 559 brakes.

Are you actually asking why doesn’t Grant design every bike to have the maximum brake clearance possible?

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

Belopsky

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Nov 12, 2017, 9:42:00 PM11/12/17
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Let's talk parts? My last foray into single speed..I went a but nuts and spent more than need be..

Ian A

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Nov 12, 2017, 10:47:45 PM11/12/17
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I was curious as to why a sports oriented design tends to end up with somewhat limited tire clearance (I appreciate the Rodeo offers far more clearance than mosrmt bikes in the same genre). I was under the impression that the Blue Lug and the Rodeo could use the same brakes that are typically spec'd on the Hillborne, which it seems is not right, so that's a significant factor.

The golden unicorn for me, I suppose, is Rodeo type performance and ride quality on 44mm wide Compass tires. Something has to give though!

Clearly my understanding of bicycle geometry and design is lacking. Even trying to figure out ST and HT angles on my own bikes and how that affects fit and setting up my cockpit and saddle position is something I'm still trying to comprehend. For now, I just use trial and error and approximate measurements, but I have amassed a few extra stems and caused myself a few cricked necks in the process. What feels comfortable at home turns into a torture device 4 hours down the road. A inch higher, closer, further etc and Nirvana is achieved. I'd just like to be able to find that in theory first.

These are all questions of geometry and I am learning that the sheer amount of time and comprehension that goes into a good bicycle design is not something to be taken for granted.

IanA

tc

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Nov 13, 2017, 2:41:25 PM11/13/17
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Singlespeeders, is your single worth $2,000 to you?

Assuming whatever the 'classic single' is to be, the frame with headset and seatpost are included.  Toying around with what a parts list would be, and cost, assuming buying all new.  Here's what I came up with doing a very quick survey of pretty good parts:

1.  Headset: ($150) Included with frame?
2.  Stem ($115)
3.  Handlebar ($125)
4.  Grips and/or tape ($50)
5.  Front/Rear caliper brakes & pads ($125)
6.  Front/Rear brake levers ($50)
7.  Brake cables and end caps ($20)
8.  Bottom bracket threaded English ($125)
9.  Single-speed Crank / spindle / arms $175
10. Pedals ($60)
11. Chain ($20)
12. Front wheel:  rim, spokes, 100mm hub ($200)
13. Rear wheel: rim, spokes, 120mm flip-flop hub (single or dingle?) ($200)
14. Front/rear tires & tubes (38mm w/out fender, 32 w/fender) ($100)
15. Seatpost: 27.2mm ($85) Included with frame?
16. Saddle ($150)

Total parts: $1,515 ($1,750 if headset and seatpost not included with frame)

Frame, headset, seatpost:  $1,400 (?)

Total bike & parts:  ~ $1,915

Shipping: $170 East of Mississippi

TOTAL bike, parts, shipping:  ~ $2,085

Bill Lindsay

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Nov 13, 2017, 4:41:24 PM11/13/17
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You gave yourself a $1000 discount

$1400 + $1515 = $2915

you said it is $1915

Ryan Fleming

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Nov 13, 2017, 4:42:12 PM11/13/17
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you might wanna recheck your math 
;)

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 4:48:07 PM11/13/17
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There are some really spendy parts on that list there and you are missing other items..
freewheel? Dingle cog (if WI) will be $$$

The stem I'd get would cost me $50, the seatpost I'd get would cost me $50, the bars would cost me $50.
Some of these parts I'd find used so chances are it'd be even less.

Sky Coulter

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Nov 13, 2017, 6:11:01 PM11/13/17
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I really liked the math.  It reminds me of my own cost estimates.

Sky in new west
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Clayton.sf

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Nov 13, 2017, 6:13:56 PM11/13/17
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Are we sure that the single speed is the blue lug single speed?

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

Philip Williamson

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Nov 13, 2017, 6:36:40 PM11/13/17
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As others mentioned, you lost $1000 in your addition, and chose the spendiest parts possible (except for brake cables). A "statement" bike like that is automatically going to be overvalued, because you're buying prestige. 

My Quickbeam is worth about $1500 to the right person, with the original wheels. Is it worth $2000 to me? Easily, since I won't sell it for that. Is it worth $3000? Absolutely not, but I might pass on that offer, too. I bought the complete bike because it was much cheaper than building it from a frameset. Still, I've had several different wheelsets on it, and replaced the bars and stem right away. 

My Ross is worth maybe $300 to someone who doesn't know about bikes. It's worth about $150 to me for the wheels, brakes, and saddle.  

My theoretical "dreamy" build: 
1.  Headset: ($45) Included with frame?
2.  Stem ($50 - used steel salsa)
3.  Handlebar ($70 Nitto RM-3 from Japan)
4.  Grips and/or tape ($20)
5.  Front/Rear caliper brakes & pads ($100 TRP ReVox or whatever's on hand)
6.  Front/Rear brake levers ($20 or whatever's in the box)
7.  Brake cables ($30)
8.  BB ($25 Basic Shimano, or whatever I have on hand)
9.  Crankset (ebay D/A triple $80 or whatever's on hand)
10. Pedals ($45 or whatever I have on hand)
11. Chain ($20)
12. Front wheel: ($100 or whatever's on hand)
13. Rear wheel and cog: ($150 or whatever's on hand)
14. Front/rear tires & tubes (38mm w/out fender, 32 w/fender) ($125 Compass, or whatever's on hand)
15. Seatpost: 27.2mm ($45) Included with frame?
16. Saddle ($75 used Brooks, or whatever's on hand)

So... depending on your parts bin, a build kit can run from $120 to $920.

Philip

On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 11:41:25 AM UTC-8, tc wrote:

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 7:26:42 PM11/13/17
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Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 7:46:50 PM11/13/17
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yep

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 8:12:42 PM11/13/17
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What are your all thoughts on a crankset? My last bike had a 144mm BCD crankset, which made finding chainrings a bit hard but also a bit expensive.
Sugino XD or similar? I had a TA Pro 5 Vis crankset but i stripped the threads on it so that's out..

Patrick Moore

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Nov 13, 2017, 8:25:32 PM11/13/17
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One of these, for sure:

Inline image 1

Inline image 2

On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Belopsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are your all thoughts on a crankset? My last bike had a 144mm BCD crankset, which made finding chainrings a bit hard but also a bit expensive.
Sugino XD or similar? I had a TA Pro 5 Vis crankset but i stripped the threads on it so that's out..

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tc

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:17:28 PM11/13/17
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LOL - yes, wouldn't the guys a Riv love to have me run the front office...$2,915 it is.

tc

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:21:24 PM11/13/17
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No - I've seen no details.  Just to get the conversation going I made a huge assumption that cost would be that of the blue lug single.  That may be wildly off.


On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 6:13:56 PM UTC-5, Clayton.sf wrote:

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:22:09 PM11/13/17
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Really? Why


On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 8:25:32 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
One of these, for sure:

Inline image 1

Inline image 2
On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Belopsky <belopol...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are your all thoughts on a crankset? My last bike had a 144mm BCD crankset, which made finding chainrings a bit hard but also a bit expensive.
Sugino XD or similar? I had a TA Pro 5 Vis crankset but i stripped the threads on it so that's out..

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Patrick Moore

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:28:01 PM11/13/17
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Why not?

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Patrick Moore

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:29:46 PM11/13/17
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And, they're the prettiest cranks ever made, IMO.

But surely, you don't think I was entirely serious?

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:37:21 PM11/13/17
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I dont know if they are the prettiest..the second photo looks nice. What are they?

Belopsky

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Nov 13, 2017, 9:39:21 PM11/13/17
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Grant wrote about this back on 10/23, it was re-posted earlier in this thread. These are the Blue Lug single-speed frames.

Belopsky

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Nov 14, 2017, 7:55:49 AM11/14/17
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Anyone think this could work? 120mm O.L.D. https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/hub_gb_hf_5sp_6sp.jpg

Could use spacers and the like if you want to run a true single speed setup or could maybe make a 5speed work too>?

Steve Palincsar

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Nov 14, 2017, 8:06:40 AM11/14/17
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No, because they're not selling it anymore.


On 11/14/2017 07:55 AM, Belopsky wrote:
> Anyone think this could work? 120mm
> O.L.D. https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/hub_gb_hf_5sp_6sp.jpg
>
>
>

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USA

Belopsky

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Nov 14, 2017, 8:44:40 AM11/14/17
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Jeremy Tavan

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Nov 14, 2017, 9:38:30 AM11/14/17
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There's also the one from SunXCD, http://sunxcd.net/hubs/ - I use one in my commuter bike and like it.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:44:40 AM UTC-8, Belopsky wrote:

Belopsky

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Nov 14, 2017, 9:57:06 AM11/14/17
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Yep, that's also a possibility. Personally I like the hub body of the Grand Bois more

M G

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Nov 14, 2017, 10:32:10 AM11/14/17
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If for a single speed, why not also have it versatile enough for fixed gear? IE horizontal dropouts.  Of course the White Eno eccentric hub is a game changer.  Becuase of a temporary move to a flattish town, i converted my Boulder rando bike to a fixed gear, and with the eccentric hub / vertical dropouts, i have a very rivvish fixed now. Which i am loving. Which is getting me to want ANOTHER one. But would not get a single speed frame that did not allow for fixed.

Ron
Berkshires MA [and Cambridge MA]


This is silly. It is a single speed or a manual shifter bike. For single speed you need an EBB, sliders, or horizontatal drops. Adding a "dangler" to it is like saying "I am not shifting my derailer bike so it is a single speed".

regarding vertical drops, yes better, but not as good as through axles once you enter disc territory. Better for caliper braked derailer bikes though, IF the frame is straight enough.

Clayton Scott
ST, CA

EasyRider

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Nov 14, 2017, 10:32:15 AM11/14/17
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The long horizontal dropouts on my 53cm Rosco Bubbe road were a big reason I bought it. Some day I'll reinvent it as a single speed. It's a 1x8 now, and replaced an old Trek 330 road bike I had converted to fixed/free 12 years earlier.

But even with horizontal dropouts it's a compromise as a singlespeed frame. The rear dropouts are 130mm, not 120mm, and because the frame can accept a large tire (700x42) the tricky part is chainring selection. I'd guess that 40t or 42t is the biggest the bike could use while clearing the chainstay, achieving good chainline, and keeping the q-factor comfortable for me. On the other hand, a dedicated 120mm frame would allow larger chainrings. Not that I need 'em!


On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 12:21:51 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
The best rear fork end for ss or fixed is the long horizontal, sloped so that your rear brake pads (if you use a rear caliper) remain more or less aligned with the rim when you move the wheel back and forth. 

I'd much rather have track ends on a ss/fixed frame than verticals, but I'd much rather have long horizontals than track ends.

Rivendell, please take note!


iamkeith

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Nov 14, 2017, 11:34:03 AM11/14/17
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On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:55:49 AM UTC-7, Belopsky wrote:
Anyone think this could work? 120mm O.L.D. https://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/hub_gb_hf_5sp_6sp.jpg

Could use spacers and the like if you want to run a true single speed setup or could maybe make a 5speed work too>?

I was tempted to make an obvious comment like "if you don't already own the frame, and what you really want is gears, then why...."   but, on further reflection, I think this might actually be genius!  If the bike's chainstay length and math happened to align, you could achieve a very clean looking stop-and-swap geared bike with a lot of useful range.

Theoretically, you could use a triple front and three cogs in back which would give you three very distinct gear ratios, which would barely even change the effective chainstay length at all, and which would all having perfect chainlines.

Something like:  46/12, 38/20, & 30/28.

But... depending on where the hub happened to fall along the length of the dropout slot when in those gears... and assuming Riv makes the slots long enough to take up an 8-tooth difference like they did with the QB and SO...  you could potentially add a 4th rear cog at the end, which could ALSO work with the smaller chainring.  For this example, a 36. 

If you used the remaining space on the cassette driver to adjust the side-to-side location of the cogs so that their chainlines fell exactly half way between those of the chainrings , EVERY chainring would work with two distinct cogs.  6 gears total! (You'd never have a "perfect" chainline in any gear combination, but that doesn't seem to be an issue in practice anyway.)

So that would potentially give you something like:  46/12, 46/20, 38/20, 38/28, 30/28 & 30/36.  Or, stated as ratios, 1:  3.83, 2.3, 1.9, 1.36, 1.07 & 0.83.

I suppose that smaller increments would work too, if necessary.  Just make sure you get quick release axles, or you'll never even bother taking the time to swap and take advantage of it.

Belopsky

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Nov 14, 2017, 7:37:31 PM11/14/17
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From what Grant's written about the coming bike.. "• 120 rear spacing, new rear dropouts---track style...two eyes for rak & fendr. No der tab. Angle like Quickbeam's, long, too." it may work

tc

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Nov 14, 2017, 10:15:48 PM11/14/17
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Is there a poll function available on this group or do we have to make and insert our own?

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:00:13 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:
...says Will in the November 9th (today) Blug post.

Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 6:20:12 AM11/15/17
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What are you looking to poll?

Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 7:16:32 AM11/15/17
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Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 7:57:42 AM11/15/17
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A good option for a no-nonsense wheel https://velo-orange.com/collections/wheels/products/grand-cru-fixed-gear-wheelset-700c , I am not sure what spokes are used (I know it says DT swiss, I am assuming straight gauge, but I have asked.)

Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 9:19:46 AM11/15/17
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They're straight gauge if anyone is wondering. Dang.

iamkeith

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Nov 15, 2017, 1:21:14 PM11/15/17
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On Tuesday, November 14, 2017 at 5:37:31 PM UTC-7, Belopsky wrote:
From what Grant's written about the coming bike.. "• 120 rear spacing, new rear dropouts---track style...two eyes for rak & fendr. No der tab. Angle like Quickbeam's, long, too." it may work



Judging by the number of posts you're making in this thread, I'm wagering you're going to get one of these!  Hope so.  And, if you do, you definitely need to get one of those 120 OLD mini-cassette hubs, and try out the 6 speed, wide-range gearing.   You have me obsessing about it now, but I want someone else to be the guinea pig.  I still kind of think it works, though...

I just played around with my Quickbeam a bit, to see what would really be feasible.  The chainstay length can be anywhere from a wee bit less than 17" to a wee bit more than 18" but, because of difficulty installing or removing the chain with rear facing dropouts, the minimum length might kind of unusable.  Tire clearance is compromised at the shorter length, too.  Who knows what the Blue Lug bike will be, but I can't imagine it being too different, and the principle is still the same.

My earlier off-the cuff guess about gear range was a bit optimistic, but here is one that looks like a reasonable scenario, while keeping the effective chainstay length (number in parenthesis) between 18" and 17".  This would use a 50 link chain with no half-link:

44:12 (17.82")
44:18 (17.13")
38:18 (17.93")
38:24 (17.22")
32:24 (18.00")
32:30 (17.26")

Still a pretty good range, better for on-road than off, so I personally might look for a lower overall range.   Just had to get this out of my head for now. Here's a tool that lets you calculate chainstay length for different gear combinations, in case anyone else wants to play around with it:  http://eehouse.org/fixin/index.php





iamkeith

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Nov 15, 2017, 1:34:31 PM11/15/17
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By the way, I think I saw Grant say that the chainstays on the Blue Lug single speed frames are going to be fillet brazed at the bottom bracket (?)  I'm sure that adds to the cost a bit but, in case anybody doesn't think it's worth it or is bothered by the idea of a non-lugged connection, here's a picture of my '99 double-joe AR, with a similar detail.   I often stare at it thinking  about how beautiful it is - by far my favorite detail on a frame with lots of nice details.  These sound like they're going to be pretty neat frames, and I can't wait to see them.  People such as Patrick, who are considering, should think hard...  ;-)




Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 2:14:56 PM11/15/17
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I totally do not need one but as I think I said earlier in the thread, I enjoyed my single speed Bob Jackson Vigorelli but wish it had larger tire clearances..The Riv is going to be 2x the cost however..
We'll see what the sizing is like..

Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 3:44:09 PM11/15/17
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Anyone going wild and putting a Compass crank on theirs? https://www.compasscycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/CranCmCrank1_A_1352-600x600.jpg

Doug Bloch

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Nov 15, 2017, 4:44:02 PM11/15/17
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Belopsky

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Nov 15, 2017, 8:03:43 PM11/15/17
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Seeing that the Sun CR-18 rims are so cheap, I may go budget build all around. 

comm...@gmail.com

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Nov 15, 2017, 11:52:55 PM11/15/17
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Doug Bloch

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Nov 16, 2017, 12:16:17 AM11/16/17
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That San Diego one is a dream bike for me. Hope someone here buys it!

Doug

Message has been deleted

lconley

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Nov 16, 2017, 8:33:29 AM11/16/17
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I have been saving these for a few years, I think a single speed would be a good place to use them.

Laing
 

 

Max S

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Nov 16, 2017, 8:54:31 AM11/16/17
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That IS a nice looking, nicely spec’ed bike! Scorcher style!

My stable is saturated, so I won’t go for it, but hope it goes to a good home! :-)

- Max

Belopsky

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Nov 16, 2017, 9:09:38 AM11/16/17
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What are these?
I have a set of Campy hubs (rear needs a new axle) - can I use that to build a single speed wheelset? Would require some spacing to make the chainline work right, right? (since this is a 5/6 speed 120mm hub?)

lconley

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Nov 16, 2017, 9:20:14 AM11/16/17
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NOS Campagnolo  Record Hi-Lo Hubs. They made a couple of runs of these in the seventies. Fairly rare. The rear is a wide six at present, I have a new 5 speed Campy axle and a variety of Campy axle spacers that I will use,

In the past, I have just put a single speed freewheel on a 5 speed hub and the proper BB on a single (or converted double) crank, no spacers needed.

Laing

Belopsky

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Nov 16, 2017, 9:34:20 AM11/16/17
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So if I understand correctly the chainline may not be perfect but close enough?

lconley

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Nov 16, 2017, 9:36:28 AM11/16/17
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It can be made perfect with the proper width bottom bracket.

Ryan Fleming

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Nov 16, 2017, 10:50:25 AM11/16/17
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those look like Campy hi-lo flange Record hubs. Very pretty. I wonder what the functional reason is for the hi-lo rear hub.

I use record low flange 36-hole with a 126 OL on my PX-10 (horizontal dropouts) which is now a single-speed with some original French parts , some Japanese , a little of this, a little of that, ratty white paint.  . Sure, I wouldn't mind a QB or SO from Riv ...or this new iteration, but I think the PX-10  rides and works great as a single-speed.In spite of the 43 or 44 old paint job  Enough so that I'm not jonesing for a 4th Riv with all due respect to RBW.

Ryan Fleming

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Nov 16, 2017, 10:57:56 AM11/16/17
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Ooops missed org post. Those are mighty pretty hubs

NOS Campagnolo  Record Hi-Lo Hubs. They made a couple of runs of these in the seventies. Fairly rare. The rear is a wide six at present, I have a new 5 speed Campy axle and a variety of Campy axle spacers that I will use,


 I had to have my rear wheel redished  and I'm using a Velo-orange threadless bottom bracket(stronglight BB and 93 cranks threads were toasted). Point is older record hubs will work just fine for a single-speed application

lconley

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Nov 16, 2017, 11:00:13 AM11/16/17
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The idea was to increase the angle of the drive side spokes and reduce the necessary tension. It did, but barely, it really did not result in a stronger wheel, but they sure are unique. I had a friend in the seventies who had them and I always wanted a pair. I ran across these on E-bay a few years back and bought them in a weak moment. Probably paid way too much, but less than the cost of a single Phil Wood cassette.

Patrick Moore

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Nov 16, 2017, 11:55:03 AM11/16/17
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Oh, purty!

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Ryan Fleming

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:34:19 PM11/16/17
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sure are...they make me almost  want to clean up my record hubs on my peugeot (which are frankly disgusting   right now) but that ain't happening before spring. 

I've always loved the older classic campy hubs up to and including 1990 C-record hubs. They are soooo smooth and so pleasing to the eye in a way that a lot of modern hubs are not..a .lot of the modern hubs are kind of boxy where these older hubs with the hourglass bodies and those curved skewers...man I could go on and on. 

Laing , you have to put those on a bike or at least  keep them as a desk ornament :)


On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 10:55:03 AM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
Oh, purty!

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 6:33 AM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:
I have been saving these for a few years, I think a single speed would be a good place to use them.

Laing
 

 

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George Schick

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Nov 16, 2017, 3:24:30 PM11/16/17
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I loved 'em, too.  But I was too heavy for them - kept braking the rear axles.  Finally gave up and replaced 'em with a set of PW's.

Deacon Patrick

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Nov 16, 2017, 3:34:24 PM11/16/17
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For my Quickbeam winter coversion to fixed/ss flip flop, I decided to go a step up from Surly’s hubs to Paul’s High Flange 120 track hubs, which are prices about half way between Surly and Phil. Phil sounded mighty futsy about what cogs fit his hubs, whereas Paul had no qualms about the dingle cog and got very excited when I described how much I’ll be beating up their work. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

Belopsky

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Nov 16, 2017, 3:46:49 PM11/16/17
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I've reached out to Grand Bois about a wheel build for this, we'll see what the total is. I really like the looks of the GB rims (Abeille)..have not decided on a hub..lookin at

lum gim fong

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Nov 16, 2017, 4:16:13 PM11/16/17
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You talkin about I's bikes?

Looks like they have Hetres for 38$US
How's their shipping to US? You like I's? They nice?

I can vouch for the 650b black label GB rims 36 hole. My tires practically auto-bead-seat on them upon inflation.
They look nice and have been great rims for me so far. I use LX hubs and SON hubs. Sapim Race spokes or those DT Swiss spokes.

Belopsky

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Nov 16, 2017, 4:33:49 PM11/16/17
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Yes, I's bikes.
Shipping depends on size but more so seems to depend on weight. It varies.
They're great.

Belopsky

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Nov 17, 2017, 9:07:03 AM11/17/17
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Here's some info for those interested..

GRAN COMPE HUB fixed/free, silver, 32H 16600 yen
Abeille 32H  16000 yen
Dt competition spokes 6400 yen
Wheel assembly fee 6000 yen
The shipping fee to US is about 12000 yen
Total about 57000 yen


So that's about ~$502USD total for a wheelset. Shipping is $105.
Not sure if I want to do this just to get the Grand Bois rims.
The other thought is TB14 rims, Velo Orange PBP, or on the very cheap, CR-18 -

Any thoughts? Thank you!

Belopsky

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Nov 17, 2017, 10:12:19 AM11/17/17
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Further me talking to myself.

I will be running 32mm tires at the minimum. As I understand, TB14 would be good (I've ridden them this way, it works well). The VO PBP are only 19mm wide, not ideal to go with wider tires on that.
TB14 are 23mm wide. Grand Bois has some other rims that are 23mm wide. A part of me wants to go 36/36 but there is no need really, I weigh 170 ;)

Deacon Patrick

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Nov 17, 2017, 10:50:46 AM11/17/17
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Plush, wide tires are not only about engine weight, and that may be a realitively minor factor within a 60-100 pound range or so. In my experience it’s mostly about the roads and trails I ride. The rougher the road or trail, the plusher, wider I want my tire. And on the Hunqapillar, it often happens that with a load of groceries (60 pounds or so), that the ride is smoother because of the weight, because of the tires, than when I ride the same bike, same engine, same road, same tires, same pressures, same speeds without the extra weight — which I tend to attribute to the Racing Ralphs not being as light in the casing as the Compass, and so more weight kicks them into even more plush mode.

For comparison’s sake, and so you needn’t talk just to yourself, grin, for the same price point my local builder is building Paul hub, Synergy Cliffhanger 36 hole for my rugged winter/mountain Quickbeam.

With abandon,
Patrick

Belopsky

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Nov 17, 2017, 10:58:01 AM11/17/17
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Definitely not going with the Cliffhanger. That's a beast of a rim that I do not need.

Deacon Patrick

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Nov 17, 2017, 11:05:41 AM11/17/17
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Right. Why would you? Different person, different rides, different needs.

With abandon,
Patrick

Patrick Moore

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Nov 17, 2017, 11:08:58 AM11/17/17
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Patrick: What did you decide on for your transmission -- AW 3 speed? Please post photos of new build; I'd like to see how the tires clear the frame.

As for tires: I find that my typical 25 to 40 lb rear load is noticeably smoother on a 60 psi 29 mm* Elk Pass than on the slightly wider Kojak. Note: I carried similar loads on 22 mm 559 X "one inch" Specialized Turbos at 90 psi, and these worked surprisingly well, except that I kept breaking a spoke on the drive side near the rim. And I had to be very careful over our 4" expansion cracks, which was annoying. Otherwise, the Turbos were very smooth tires, and fast. I commuted on them for years. It's suppleness, IME.

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Deacon Patrick

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Nov 17, 2017, 11:54:18 AM11/17/17
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Patrick of the Moore, Quickbeam fixed. Still toying with trying the 3-speed Sturmey AW on the Hunqapillar, with Melvin tensioner and 24/38 chainrings on the Hunqapillar.

With abandon,
Patrick

Jim Bronson

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Nov 17, 2017, 11:57:38 AM11/17/17
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I wish I had bought the last 68 Quickbeam that came up on this list.


With abandon,
Patrick

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Deacon Patrick

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Nov 17, 2017, 12:09:46 PM11/17/17
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In essence, Jim, the 3-speed would be an effort to make the Hunqapillar a Hunqa-beam. Quickbeam and Treebeard. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

Belopsky

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Nov 17, 2017, 2:53:07 PM11/17/17
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Any reason I can't use a freewheel on a hub meant for cog and lockring? I know there arent enough threads for the freewheel to thread on completely but I've done it in the past..

Clayton.sf

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Nov 17, 2017, 5:14:22 PM11/17/17
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May void warranty, other than that it should not be issue.

Best,
Clayton Scott
SF, CA

Belopsky

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Nov 17, 2017, 5:58:10 PM11/17/17
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I also haven't put it out of mind to get the 120mm Grand Bois cassette hub for future versatility with the wheels..just a lot more $$$

Philip Williamson

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Nov 17, 2017, 10:47:42 PM11/17/17
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At $150, it’s not a lot more $$$ than any other nice hub. You can build a nice wheelset for much less than the $600 for the other wheels you were looking at.
I think it would be quite cool.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

Belopsky

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Nov 18, 2017, 10:35:53 AM11/18/17
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A few wrenches in the gears..
VO PBP is too narrow. GB Abeille is too narrow. 
The 32H of the PAPILLON are currently sold out, due in January..

The cheapest wheelset I've spec'd via Bens Cycles:
CR18 32/32H
Milwaukee (rebranded Formula?) fixed/free hubs 32/32H ($100 for the set.
Sapim Race spokes
$230 shipped (Ben's offering free shipping and labor on this)

Ben's also has the Gran Compe hubs.

Aesthetically, I like the Velo Orange hubs and the Ene Ciclo - Ene Ciclo are hard to find in the states. Is it 'worth it' , I dont know, that's only for me to decide I guess.
I don't know if the more expensive hubs are worth the cost? I always wonder..

The CR18 rims get good reviews though some people say they are 'soft' ? I dont know, people like them, too.
The step up from them are the TB14 which get good reviews as well...A cheaper Grand Bois built build..

GB Papillon 32/32
Ene Ciclo 32/32
DT Competition spokes

Total is $440 shipped from Japan

Coal Bee Rye Anne

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Nov 18, 2017, 12:10:59 PM11/18/17
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If the Velocity Aero isn’t too narrow for you the Velocity Wheel Dept. still has track wheels on sale under $200... I almost got a set as a lightweight complement to an overkill chukker set I already bought last year to beat up on my single speed. (The polo wheelset also still on sale for the same price)
http://store.velocityusa.com/c/specials_track-wheels
Looks like the aero sets are now limited to black ano or white powder coated though.

Belopsky

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Nov 18, 2017, 12:14:50 PM11/18/17
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The Aero measure 20mm.
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