Berthoud Saddles

[Don Compton]

I've been a Rivendell fan for years having owned 4 different bikes. I used B-17 saddles for years, but with wear, as the area under my sit bones would settle, the hump in the saddle( running for-aft) would cause extreme discomfort. I just had to give up on Brooks. I have been using a Secialized Phenom for about a year, but it's not so great on longer rides like I remember my Brooks in the early years of ownership. Has anyone with issues similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle and felt some improvement?

[Steve Palincsar]

B.17s stopped working for me a couple of years ago and I switched to
Berthoud Aspins. I can't help with the "fore-aft hump" because my
saddles never developed ridges like that, but for sure the Berthoud
leather is much thicker and sturdier, and does not sag the way B.17s do.

[John Bokman]

I switched several years ago from Brooks B-17 which I had ridden on for years on several bikes. i had issues with decomposition of B-17s over time to where they became uncomfortable - even with the "Select" version. Also, I found as I began to ride in a more forward leaning manner (lowered my bars for more comfort, contrary to what is often preached here), the B-17 shape didn't work for me. 

So I switched to Berthoud and have been happy as a clam ever since. I've been riding the Aspin now for about 3 years. Better quality (thicker, stiffer leather; no hamered rivets to eventually dig into ones backside as the leather around the rivet wears; completely rebuildable saddle because the saddle is bolted to the rails, not hammered in. Just a better design, in my opinion.

Caveat: it took me 500 miles to break the saddle to where riding anything more than 20 miles was comfortable. But, after 3 years, the saddle is broken, but not broken. Just thicker, stiffer material that will last much longer, I am sure. Highly recommended.

John

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/16/2016 05:53 PM, John Bokman wrote:
> I switched several years ago from Brooks B-17 which I had ridden on
> for years on several bikes. i had issues with decomposition of B-17s
> over time to where they became uncomfortable - even with the "Select"
> version. Also, I found as I began to ride in a more forward leaning
> manner (lowered my bars for more comfort, contrary to what is often
> preached here), the B-17 shape didn't work for me.
>
> So I switched to Berthoud and have been happy as a clam ever since.
> I've been riding the Aspin now for about 3 years. Better quality
> (thicker, stiffer leather; no hamered rivets to eventually dig into
> ones backside as the leather around the rivet wears; completely
> rebuildable saddle because the saddle is bolted to the rails, not
> hammered in. Just a better design, in my opinion.
>
> Caveat: it took me 500 miles to break the saddle to where riding
> anything more than 20 miles was comfortable. But, after 3 years, the
> saddle is broken, but not broken. Just thicker, stiffer material that
> will last much longer, I am sure. Highly recommended.
>

It takes me about 500 miles to break in an Aspin, too. I presume you
mean "broken in but not broken" - and that's very true.

[Eric]

Just made the switch & could not be more happy!

The "hump" on the B17 just seemed to develop way to fast in more recent B17's I've purchased, both the standard & copper rivet B17 models. The "hump" made the ride just awful!

It begs the question, are they as well made as they used to be?!

[Lungimsam]

Perhaps a brooks imperial would eliminate the hump?

[RonaTD]

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 2:42:55 PM UTC-5, Don Compton wrote:

 Has anyone with issues similar to mine switched over to a Berthoud saddle and felt some improvement?

I had a bunch of B17's over the years, most of which developed pretty large twists, and all of which tended to cause sores. I have a Berthoud Touring on my brevet bike and I have been very happy with it. 

Several years ago Sean Virnig tipped me to the Dimension Afton Classic, which has a shape and size that is very close to the B17, and cost about $25. It's not as wide in the back, only 145mm, but the extra width at the back of the B17 (and Berthoud) is where the Afton starts to taper, in back of where you actually sit. I've ridden the Afton on a 600km with no trouble. I used the Afton instead of the Berthoud on the Ride Across Wisconsin (178 miles) this year because of the wet weather and it was great. Alas, the Afton Classic is no longer made, but the Soma Ensho is pretty much identical (but twice the price) and, like the Afton, actually made by Velo/Taiwan. For me the critical dimensions are the shape between the legs, the sit bone support area, and (very important) the rise of the back area (or, the dip in the middle, between the nose and the tail). The B17, Berthoud, Afton, and Ensho are all very similar in those dimensions. Interesting additional note - my wife loves the Afton - first time we've ever agreed on a saddle.

[Lungimsam]

Is tge name pronounced:
"Ber-toad", or
"Bear-tood"
Or some other way?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/17/2016 12:36 AM, Lungimsam wrote:
> Is tge name pronounced:
> "Ber-toad", or

> "Bear-tood"

According to google translate, bear-too, with a rolling r

[jeffrey kane]

I'll chime in with a quick six year synopsis of my leather saddle experience:

I like B-17's with upright bars but they don't work in drop bar mode for me (too wide at the rear and in-between my legs). I tried a Brooks Swift in drop bar mode for a while, which, wasn't too bad but did sag so much over a short period of use (maybe two seasons) that I started to become frustrated with the whole finicky leather saddle thing altogether. I haven't enjoyed the continual evolving towards sag experience much but I do like the feel of leather saddles (way more than the Cambiums -- but that's another story).

Next I tried an older Team Pro, which, by the numbers seemed like it would be a better fit for my drop bar position (and it was). Unfortunately, it deteriorated and ripped (but that was really due to it's age more than anything else). 

So faced with the decision to buy a new Team Pro -- or try yet another saddle -- I went with the Aspin (Arivis, actually -- but same shape) because that saddle also looked to fit my needs based on the numbers. And it did -- but here's the odd part -- I must be the only person to be disappointed with it's longevity. It broke in very quickly (read: sagged) and once, when soaked in a rainstorm I didn't see coming -- sagged so much that I thought it was a goner. To it's credit, I was able to get it back into shape again and am finishing a second season with it -- though, I've had to run the tension bolt in a bunch more than expected -- and again, I always have that nagging feeling that it's sagging towards state of ultimate uselessness. 

I like that I can at least order new leather for it -- but wish I'd had that 500 mile break-in period everyone talks about and the impression that the leather is somehow thicker. Mine does not seem overly thick compared to the Books models I've used in the past ... and well, it's not behaving much differently, either. 

It is comfortable, however,  and I get that these are leather saddles, therefor somewhat subject to the varying nature of "natural"  material -- so I suppose I'll try replacing the leather sooner or later ... if not next season then likely the season after.

I am curious if anyone else has had a similar Berthoud experience -- I weigh between 150 and 160lb, generally, btw.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/17/2016 08:58 AM, jeffrey kane wrote:
>
> So faced with the decision to buy a new Team Pro -- or try yet another
> saddle -- I went with the Aspin (Arivis, actually -- but same shape)
> because that saddle also looked to fit my needs based on the numbers.
> And it did -- but here's the odd part -- I must be the only person to
> be disappointed with it's longevity. It broke in very quickly (read:
> sagged) and once, when soaked in a rainstorm I didn't see coming --
> sagged so much that I thought it was a goner. To it's credit, I was
> able to get it back into shape again and am finishing a second season
> with it -- though, I've had to run the tension bolt in a bunch more
> than expected -- and again, I always have that nagging feeling that
> it's sagging towards state of ultimate uselessness.
>
> I like that I can at least order new leather for it -- but wish I'd
> had that 500 mile break-in period everyone talks about and the
> impression that the leather is somehow thicker. Mine does not seem
> overly thick compared to the Books models I've used in the past ...
> and well, it's not behaving much differently, either.
>
> It is comfortable, however, and I get that these are leather saddles,
> therefor somewhat subject to the varying nature of "natural" material
> -- so I suppose I'll try replacing the leather sooner or later ... if
> not next season then likely the season after.
>
> I am curious if anyone else has had a similar Berthoud experience -- I
> weigh between 150 and 160lb, generally, btw.
>

I've not been caught in the rain without fenders or a saddle cover
riding a leather saddle since the 1990s, so I can't speak to how well a
Berthoud saddle would do in those conditions. I can say, last year I
bought a dark brown Aspin that broke in alarmingly quickly - very soft
in just 50 miles. I contacted the seller who in turn contacted Gilles
Berthoud and learned they'd had a few reported cases like mine. The
saddle was replaced under warranty, with an Aravis, which has been just
fine, as have the other five Berthoud saddles. As for weight: mine's
substantially more.

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

I've never used them but these guys will re-form your saddle with a "love channel":

http://rideyourbike.com/brookssaddlerepair.shtml

[Eric]

Thanks for the link regarding the saddle repair services!

But in reference to the Imperial (which are nice) but it still begs the question if current standard B17's are made as well as they used to be.

I for one think they're not simply because of how quickly & unevenly they break in along with the development of the dreaded "hump".

[Lungimsam]

I have heard different things from different "experts". Some say the leather is not the same as in the olden days. Some say the leather quality is different on different models. Some say the leather does not differ between models. So there is different info going around. Hard to get to the bottom of it.

I did get confirmation from Brooks that misaligned rivets, crooked Brooks name plates, crooked adjuster bolt, and crooked noses, different height Springs, are part of the handmade process and do not cause a problem for functionality .
Maybe I will email them again and see if I get an answer on the leather.

[Bill in Roswell GA]

The leather used for B17s is not as thick as it was 30 years ago. I have a 1985 B17 narrow which I bought used. I would say the leather is as thick as a modern Professional model, comparing to new ones at the shop. It was a little dry when I got it about 9 years ago, but a few treatments cured that. It still has its shape. The spanner has only been turned a half turn by me. The B17 is mounted on my 1985 Bridgestone and primarily is used for running errands, usually less than 10 miles round trip. 

Modern B17s look like an old sway back horse after a couple of years. I can see how turning the spanner would cause a ridge down the middle. No wonder I've come to prefer flat saddles!

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Bill M.]

Don,

Why don't you take my custom-carved B17 out for a spin?  Cutting out the middle makes a huge difference, there's no material there to create a hump.  In any case, I'll have it out of service for now ( I'll be trying something quite different on my Rawland, an SMP Hybrid is due to arrive on Thursday) so it won't be a problem for me.  For that matter, I have an Imperial available, too.  It's not like I'm far away!  

Bill

Stockton, CA

On Sunday, October 16, 2016 at 12:42:55 PM UTC-7, Don Compton wrote: