Atlantis vs Appaloosa

[Kellie]

Just wondering what you guys think? I really want an Atlantis but a new one is out of my budget. Intended use is mostly off road like fire trails, cross country riding; NOT crazy downhill, rock gardens etc. Since the Appaloosa is supposed to be somewhere between the Hillborne and the Hunq, I'm wondering if an Appaloosa would be an appropriate substitute?

Big price difference between the two. I'm sure there is a tubing difference. But the Appaloosa has the Hunq fork so that's plenty strong. Maybe better cosmetics, detailed lugging on the Atlantis. So you say why not get a Hunq? But if I'm going to pop for a new Hunq I might as will buy a new Atlantis. What do you think?

[drew]

i dont think the appaloosa has a hunq fork. the clem does, but i think the appaloosa fork is different. 

i also think you can do what youre talking about on almost any rivendell model. i have an atlantis and a hillborne. both handle fire roads, and even some single track just fine. for my riding, i couldnt really even tell you one is better than the other. 

[Bill Lindsay]

In my opinion, if you really want an Atlantis, you should wait and make it happen.  If "out of your budget" means you can't afford it yet, then wait until you can afford it.  If "out of your budget" means you could never spend that much on a frameset and feel good about riding it, then wait until you find a used one.  

If you actually want an Appaloosa, and an Appaloosa is in your budget, then go for it.  The Appaloosa is a fine bike.  But if you buy an Appaloosa and continue to want it to be an Atlantis, then you are bound to eventually regret it, and you'll be right back here again.  That's my opinion.  

Bill who-rode-his-Appaloosa-this-morning Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[masmojo]

They are both great bikes, but the advantage of the Atlantis to me is historically it comes in many more sizes. If you can get an Appaloosa that suits you there's no reason not to do that, if you can't or it's a push one way or the other. Then maybe take a harder look @ the Atlantis.

[adam leibow]

the main cause for price difference between appaloosa and atlantis are country of manufacture, and though there is a tubing difference, i wouldn't cite better tubing as the reason the atlantis is more expensive, though it might, in fact, have better tubing. what i am trying to say here is that you pay extra for the atlantis primarily because it is made in the US, and that doesn't automatically make it better quality, though it might be. 

 i know that grant's description of the appaloosa (that it's not for mountain biking) is conservative; however, if you want full peace of mind get a hunqapillar. it does sound like the appaloosa would be perfect for your intended riding, but it also sounds like you have your heart set on an atlantis, in which case i would say "just save up and get the atlantis." 

I bought the hunqapillar because i love jay's green, maximum tire clearance, and riding the rough stuff. it just made sense. your purchase should make sense in that similar "i love x, y, z" way. 

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 9:57:50 AM UTC-7, Kellie wrote:

[Scott McLain]

Hi Kellie,

It may be helpful to the group to tell us what kind of bike(s) you currently own and if you are replacing one or adding to your collection.  I find myself in the same conundrum wanting an Atlantis.  

I currently own an AHH that I bought used(A. Homer Hilsen) which I love.  I use it for my everyday/everything bike.  But I plan on doing a loaded week long tour once per year.  I keep a Surly Long Haul Trucker in the garage for my extended tours and mega loads, but would love to replace it with an Atlantis.  But if I had an Atlantis, there would be too much overlap with the AHH? 

First world problems for sure.

Scott

[Justin Schoop]

You say you want an Atlantis. Save up and get an Atlantis. You'll never regret it.

[Philip Kim]

i've been able to test ride the appaloosa and it rides great. the fork is a new fork and not a hunq fork, it's really cool. top tube is longer, so upright bars are probably better fit, unless you size down according to your top tube. i rode the 51 and felt like it rode closer to a 50cm chev i used to own.

chocos seem pretty sweet, but not for me, i would put on albatross or bosco bars instead. i sold the chev because tire clearance was limited, and wanted v brakes plus more stability. got a hunq, before i was able to try to appaloosa. but if i didn't get the hunq the appaloosa wouldn't be far from my next choice.

if drop bars are a must, then the appaloosa might not be the best fit.

[dougP]

Kellie:

Based on what you've stated, I suggest the Appaloosa.  While I dearly love my Atlantis (purchased 2003), when I look at at the price comparison of a complete Joe vs an Atlantis frame, I'd be hard pressed to justify the cost difference.  If you've really got your heart set on an Atlantis but you know it's not going to happen for years, another path could be to buy the Appaloosa, enjoy it, and keep your eyes out for a used Atlantis frame.  Check the build requirements for the two bikes in your size and perhaps a lot of the Joe components could move over to an Atlantis frame.  Note that I haven't looked into that in detail but it's worth considering.

dougP

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 9:57:50 AM UTC-7, Kellie wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I kinda see the others' point about getting the model you really want, but I'm going to vouch for the Appaloosa anyway 'cause I own one and it's great. I consider the sloping toptube and long stays to be an evolution from the Atlantis, making Appaloosa the more "modern" interpretation of that earlier design, if you will.

The jury is still out on whether longer stays are an improvement for trail riding, but the better standover clearance *definitely* is. Based on your interest in a 51 Atlantis, I assume you'd fit a 46 Appaloosa. This one here is in the lovely blue I bought, which is a discontinued color. Of course there's mustard frames, too, if you'd rather go that way.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-appa-complete-0001x.htm

I think it's a wonderful bicycle with a very cool fork crown, and it's built to handle loaded touring. I'd ride it on fire trails any day, and intend to do so at Mt. Diablo this week.

Yes, you should wait for an Atlantis if you have your heart set on one, but I don't think the Appaloosa sacrifices a single thing to that more expensive frame. In a couple ways my Blue Joe is the better bike. In my opinion.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[Bill Lindsay]

To paraphrase Joe Bernard:  "any sane person realizes they need one of each, so buy the one you can afford now and get the other one ASAP"

Bill one-of-each Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

Of course Bill is right: I'm perfectly happy with my blue Appaloosa, and need that red 52cm Roadeo as soon as humanly possible.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

You need to amp up your Roadeo motivation.  There is no 52 cm Roadeo.  You need to dream the right dream to make it a reality! :)

Oakland dreamer,

Toshi

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course Bill is right: I'm perfectly happy with my blue Appaloosa, and need that red 52cm Roadeo as soon as humanly possible.

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[Kellie]

I think you're right.

[Kellie]

I have a Saluki for long road rides and a Cheviot.

[Keith Muller]

I have an Appaloosa, a Hunqapillar, and an Atlantis.  They are all great bikes!  They all ride just a little different.  My Appaloosa is setup with a Albatross bar, Hunqapillar has a Bullmoose bar, and my Atlantis is setup with drop bars.  I like the way they all ride in different respects, though I would say my favorite of the three is the Hunqapillar.  It is just so much fun to ride the way I have it setup.  Either option will be a great ride.  If you really want an Atlantis though, pinch your pennies and save your money up.  It is worth the price of admission.  You might be able to find a used Atlantis and save some money that way.  

Keith

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:57:50 PM UTC-4, Kellie wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, it's a 51. I rode that and the 51 Appaloosa at RBW, went back a week later for Joe Blue. I still want Red Roadeo!

[Will]

I think Atlantis. They are so dialed in. Maybe GP has designed a better bike... but I seriously doubt it.  I have a 53. It's running 46 contis and p65 fenders. Frame is beautiful. You will never regret having an Atlantis. Never.

[Ray Varella]

Having owned a custom Riv for over 15 years and looking closely at the Atlantis and Appaloosa close up, I would have a hard time paying such a premium for an Atlantis.
The Appaloosa looks to be a tremendous value, much like the early Japanese made Atlanti were.
It looks like the Appaloosa might even fit a larger tire than the Atlantis.

I'm still waiting to bump into Joe around town on his.

For me, the smart money is on a new Appaloosa and that's after many years with a Curt built Allrounder.

Just my .02
Ray
Vallejo CA

[Joe Bernard]

I've been outta town the last few weeks, Ray, but I'll be back on the mean, potholed streets this week. Before I forget how to ride these things!

[Garth]

Kellie,  But but but .... but so what ? !!!!  Get what you want as otherwise you'll buy something you do not, and end up selling it later after you paid even more for your Atlantis as you had to buy 2 frames to get the one you wanted.

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 12:57:50 PM UTC-4, Kellie wrote:

[Kellie]

I confess, when I bought my Saluki off this list, I posted for an Atlantis or Saluki. The Saluki can up first and I went with it. I already had a Cheviot and needed something for longish rides on the road. I love the Cheviot but it is heavy and difficult to get on a bike rack. Now I really love the Saluki for my long rides. I've got it dialed in and it's super comfy. But in the back of my mind I've always wanted that Atlantis. So here I am again. Though I believe the Appaloosa would be an excellent choice, and the butternut is beautiful, I think the only reason I would consider another bike other than the Atlantis is money. And though money is an important factor, I don't know it's the most important factor. So........ I'm considering selling the Cheviot and crossing my fingers a used frame will become available.

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 9:57:50 AM UTC-7, Kellie wrote:

[Scott McLain]

You and me both!

[Christopher Murray]

Hello,

I was in the market for a new Rivendell and asked the person some would argue is the most qualified to answer which to get- Joe, Atlantis, or Custom. The response? "The Joe is the best bike ever."

That's pretty much straight from the horse's mouth.

Cheers,
Chris

[Steve Palincsar]

Better even than a Rivendell Custom? I kind of doubt that...

[Kellie]

I'm assuming the horse has the initials GP?

[Garth]

Ahahaha, sure !  "Best" for who, Riv or the customer ?  For Riv great if it sells(regardless of the buyer name), for the consumer great if it meets all you criteria(regardless of the make, model or manufacturer name), including tires,frame fit, position, etc. If not, not so great !

[Daniel D.]

B.O.T.O.H  I've never been in the middle of a ride and thought "I should've bought that bike I was day dreaming about instead of this nice one that fits my budget more.  Then I'd really be having fun" :p

[Joe Bernard]

You shouldn't doubt it. Grant doesn't design bikes based on "custom better than production"; he designs the bike he wants built, then finds a way to get it built and sold. If you wanted his idea of the perfect custom Riv, right now it would probably look a lot like an Appaloosa.

[Steve Palincsar]

I'm sorry, no matter how good Waterford, or Toyo or Maxway are, they
just don't do as nice work as Nobilette.

[Joe Bernard]

Nicer brazing and lugs doesn't necessarily qualify as a better bike when actually being ridden.

[Kellie]

Me thinks I'll go ride an Appaloosa this Sat. Maybe I'll fall in love with it like I did the Atlantis. I do struggle with spending that much money on a bike (Atlantis). That's why I began my Rivendell purchase with a Hillborne. Then the Hillborne went by way of my adult daughter, and I got a Cheviot. I would fell better thinning the herd by selling the Cheviot; still thinking about it.......... I have the luxury of thinking as there is no used Atlantis available 😢 .......... yet.

[Joe Bernard]

If you're in RBW range there's a garage sale Saturday from 11 to 1:00. You could show up for that, then take a bike for a spin.

[Steve Palincsar]

Now you are significantly narrowing the scope of "better."

[Joe Bernard]

Well, sir, you're responding to Grant being quoted on "best Riv". As there is no such thing as a true custom Rivendell because they're all built to parameters GP prefers, I don't doubt that he may consider a production Riv just as good or better than a Nobilette built one. They're both his design, and he seems quite proud of all the folks who build them.

[Joe Bernard]

Maybe we should veer back to Kellie's questions about these two bikes. This thread is well and truly hijacked by us at this point.

[Christopher Murray]

I didn't mean to lead the discussion astray, I just wanted to share a similar question I had several months ago. I don't think there is any question that Nobilette's work is in a separate league than any production bike. I think the point is that the quality of the production bikes is good enough that in a practical(out riding) sense the difference isn't noticeable. I am neither informed nor knowledgable enough on lugged construction to judge when a level of quality has been reached above which their is no practical benefit but I trust that Grant is. To be fair he did say in regards to the Custom that "practically they won't ride better than a non- custom that fits". He did not say the Joe was better, though he did say it was the best bike ever. I think it is fair to assume that conclusion takes both quality and price into the equation.

Cheers,
Chris

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, Christopher, and you will also usually get a "for you" qualifier from GP about what your "best bike" is. He knew I was pushing my finances to get my Appaloosa, and there's NO WAY he would have told me a more expensive model was my best bike. That's not who he is.

[Kellie]

I don't feel like the thread is hijacked. I enjoy hearing everyone's ideas/opinions about a topic we all obviously love. "Better" is qualitative, as is our experience on the bike. The whole thread has helped me identify my own beliefs about the subject, and I thank you all. I hope there's more to say from everyone and new contributors too. 

[Kellie]

and...... I'm still without an Atlantis, so spread the word.  😃 BTW, I talked with Rivendell today, the wait for an Atlantis is 2-3 months. I'm holding my breathe for a used one!

[Joe Bernard]

Kellie, did you pass on that green one? I was curious if you were going to be happy with that color.

[Kellie]

What green one?

[Joe Bernard]

http://bike123.com/used_bikes/used_sbikesview.php?ID=3404

[Kellie]

You think that's NOT the regular Atlantis seafoam green? I thought it was poor lighting in the picture. I have talked with this bike store. I believe they're asking way too much for this bike, and they want to sell it as a complete only.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

http://bike123.com/used_bikes/used_sbikesview.php?ID=3404

[dougP]

Kellie:

It looks darker than mine BUT Rivendell has used several slightly different versions of the paint.  IIRC it was just normal variation & nothing intentional.  I've seen a few things in person where the color looked different than the pic.

You could ask them if it's a re-paint.  BTW, how much are they asking?  What I see has stuff blocked out, & I just gave it a quick look anyway.

dougP

[Kellie Stapleton]

Hi Doug: $2700. I think they got the frame and built it up at their shop. I’m waiting for a list of components, age, and condition of the frame. They”d have to come way down for me to buy it. 

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[drew]

The college park guy has ridiculous ideas of pricing. I've contacted him several times and its become clear that selling the posted bikes is just not a priority. 2700$ complete is not what id call a deal, but it's actually not as crazy as some of the prices he has quoted me.
Early on, there was a bike I actually was willing to pay the price for but when I agreed to the price, he said he couldn't find the bike. I always assumed that it was a letting go problem.

[Joe Bernard]

No, that looks like a darker metallic green I've seen on Riv Customs. Custom colors are an upcharge available for built-to-order production bikes, I don't think there's any chance that bike is the stock color.

[dougP]

Wow!  Granted it's a retail shop (presumably with rent, utilities, employees, etc.) but in our little corner of the world a used Atlantis complete is +/- $1,500ish, depending on build & beausage.  Maybe it's just a super lightly used frame or one that had never been built and they came into it, and had the right parts to build it up.  Another grand & Rivendell will build you a brand new on with all new stuff.  Their price is kinda in no-man's land between new & used. 

Regarding the color:  I'd forgotten they'll do paint for an upcharge.  Agree that color looks like one I've seen on customs.

dougP

[Ray Varella]

The Atlantis is a great bike but it was developed about 17 or 18 years ago. Perhaps it has seen some tweaks and improvements over the years.
In the past 17 years Grant and the other employees and close friends have logged thousands of hours riding the hills and the actual Mountain.
I grew up at the base of that mountain and rode it a lot, still do once in a while.
That area is the test bed for these bicycles and everything learned by riding that area goes into the design of Rivendell's bikes.
You can be certain that all those years of research have resulted in some of the best riding bikes Rivendell has ever designed.
The new bikes cost less because of where they are built, I doubt there are any compromises.

I'm certain that a new Riv custom will be exquisite in its execution and attention to detail and that is worth a lot in and of itself.

However, for a fraction of that cost you can get a frame that is very well made and will ride great on trails.

My custom Allrounder was the best handling bike on twisty mountain descents that I have ever ridden and I've owned dozens of really nice bikes.

I have no doubt the Appaloosa is an evolution of that bike.

Ray

[Joe Bernard]

It's a basic parts build, too: 9-speed LX derailers and RapidFire shifters on a flat bar, generic Kalloy-looking post, Sugino cranks. That bike is way overpriced, especially without the beautiful stock Atlantis color.

[Philip Kim]

there was a 51 on ebay a few months ago, sold for $1900 complete with albas and standard riv build.

[Kellie]

Components are NOT even new! He said "mechanically like new." Not even sure what that means. Glad you all commented on the color because I love the stock color! So $2700, that's like a new frame and used componentry. I think I'm gonna pass on this one.

[Ryan Fleming]

Agreed...if you can't afford a custom, I think that functionally Grant's production bikes give up very little if anything. Whatever you go with will be a superb bike, I think.

The customs are lovely however.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Well certainly in agreement that $2700 is pretty rich for that Atlantis.  Especially if you don't like any of the offered components on it now and would change them out.

I think Grant is very good at marketing his bikes as he speaks to his love of his products.  I've noticed he refers to many of them as "most comfortable", "none better", and other glowing terms.  This is NOT a criticism but trying to glean what he holds as a Rivendell "best bike" would be like naming one of your kids as your favorite.

[Luis Garcia]

Good Morning Kellie,

I am in the same boat as you.  That means that I want an Atlantis but it is out of my budget.   There is a butterscotch Appaloosa frameset at my LBS here in Dallas.  Very tempting to get it NOW.   I just read Bill Lindsay's thoughts, and it reinforced my thinking, which is to simply wait for what you REALLY want.   I am sure that the Appaloosa would be fine, look fine, and do everything that I want of it.   But, I have been drooling over an Atlantis for a long time.   I am learning to be patient.   My wife has told me on more than one occasion to just go for it and buy an Atlantis.   I LOVE MY WIFE!    But, WE have goals that require dollars and those goals don't include an Atlantis.   If I am honest, they don't include an Appaloosa either.  I keep MY bike funds and goals separate from OUR home funds and goals.  That means that I won't dip into our home funds to buy an Atlantis (even with the wife's approval) or an Appaloosa.  

BTW, since I already had the wife's approval to buy an Atlantis using home funds, the temptation to "settle" for an Appaloosa was particularly strong.   My sweet non-cyclist wife encouraged me to not settle and hold out for an Atlantis. Her thinking was exactly the same as Bill's.   So, I have decided to MAN UP and not "settle" AND not dip into the home funds even though my wife is okay with it.    It may take me awhile, but one day I plan to fly out to California, spend the day at Rivendell, hopefully meet Grant, and get myself a 61cm Atlantis.  

Luis

[Kellie]

Good luck Lewis!

[Pondero]

Kellie,

I've been following this thread with interest.  I had to satisfy an Atlantis itch for myself, so I think I can relate.  If I would waited a little longer and purchased a smaller one that fit me better, I might still have one.  It sounds like there is an Atlantis calling deep down in your soul.  So maybe that pursuit stays in the background and your stay alert for opportunities.  In the meantime, as was mentioned before, I like the idea to enjoy what is attainable in the near term.  That probably wouldn't hinder you too much if/when the Atlantis opportunity materialized, right?

By the way, I admire your discipline, Luis.  I just committed to a financial stretch on a new project...and my beloved Hilsen hasn't sold yet.  Yikes!

Chris Johnson

Sanger, Texas

[Kellie]

Hi Chris: yes I saw your AHH up on the list. No more Rivendells? For price comparison, how old is your AHH?

[René Sterental]

This thread has touched a few sensitive issues in me, and you've seen I'm not too good at managing them...

- Want vs. Need

- Want/Need it now vs. Can/should wait

- It's perfect now vs It's no longer perfect

- Fiscal discipline

Very interesting range of responses from everyone, there are people happy with one bike, there are people happy with n+1 bikes and there are some who've agreed to manage it by keeping the same n number of bikes, so when one comes, one must go.

As for Kellie's original post, while I'm not the one who can certainly answer his question, I can certainly say that those two original Rivendells I purchased, the Homer and the Atlantis, have had an incredible staying power throughout all my evolutions, changes and preferences. They are super adaptable and can be set-up as almost anything anyone would want, except super light bikes.

I haven't ridden the Apaloosa, so I cannot comment on it vs. the Atlantis. But the aesthetic and emotional components of getting a "dream" bike vs. a "just to ride" bike are certainly very powerful and if one can understand the first two points I made above, truly understand them, the answer usually becomes very clear and one has no regret.

These aren't rational decisions, as much as one can pretend they are. Like my choices to go for a custom or to change the 58 Betty for the 60 Cheviot primarily for the seat post size that could let me fit on it even better, these are emotional at core decisions that one can either finance or not.

If one can, then it's just a hobby one enjoys; if one can't, then one either does the right thing to wait until one can finance it responsibly, or one chooses to behave irresponsibly.

Do what you think is right for you.

Get the one you really want or get what's available now. What will you regret the most? Only you can answer that.

René 

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016, Kellie <kellie.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Chris: yes I saw your AHH up on the list. No more Rivendells? For price comparison, how old is your AHH?

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[iamkeith]

Kellie, I read through all the above responses only quickly, but one thing I don't think I saw mentioned was the issue of toe clip overlap (TCO), or likelihood of interference between your foot and the front tire during slow-speed maneuvering and tight turns.  For how you describe wanting to primarily use the bike (trails and off road), I'd think that would be a primary consideration.  At least it would be for me.   I think the Atlantis is renowned for having pretty severe TCO and, from my own comparisons between it and the Appaloosa (for larger sizes), I'm guessing that the later is similar.   Someone who has one or both can hopefully comment and confirm.

I don't know if your Saluki has this issue but, for your long road rides, it wouldn't matter.   I'm assuming your long Cheviott does NOT.  But, if you're going to sell that then you might end up missing having a bike where TCO is not an issue.   Personally, I think the Hunq is actually the better choice because it is long enough to eliminate TCO and it gives you clearance for even wider tires - which you WILL eventually want.   (As noted above, the Appaloosa crown is not as wide as the Hunq crown.)

FWIW

[iamkeith]

Also....

If you really want to use the bike primarily for trail riding, I'm not sure the long chainstays of the Appaloosa are the best option.  I have a Clem that's even longer, so my experience is base on that:  I do like it and I do ride it on trails and it is undeniably comfortable on rough surfaces, but I feel like it's sort of a novelty experience and fun mostly because of the variety and change if offers when compared to other bikes.   The long stays make it very difficult to loft (manual) the front end over obstacles, and increase the turning radius significantly.   Even if you're not going for a hard-core mountain bike experience, these are pretty important things to consider for trail riding.

[Kellie]

My original post IS NOT which bike is better or which one is a better bang for the buck. I truly believe every Rivendell is a wonderous machine and recognize there's overlap between the models.

I want to know which is better for off-road riding, especially carrying some weight, like off-road touring (but light).I think the marketing is confusing because it says the Appaloosa is between the Hunq and the Hillborne, but is described as a stouter choice for road touring. Clearily the Hunq is best for off-road. The Hillborne is not described that way at all; light road touring. Do you see my confusion or inability to pick the "best" bike when looking how it is to be used? Besides wanting an Atlantis I see lots of people using the Atlantis in the most variety of ways; commuting, road touring, off-road, and off-road touring. People are religious about how perfect this bike is for them, no matter how it's used. If I did a lot of single track and traditional MTBing-I'd get a Hunq. I have a Saluki for road rides, hence my desire to have a bike for off-road.

Am I just spinning my wheels?

[John]

Regarding toe-clip overlap on trail rides, choosing a Hunqapillar won't solve that problem, but choosing platform pedals will solve it for either an Atlantis or Hunq.

John

[Bill Lindsay]

Since John brought up Toe Clip Overlap.  A lot of list members know this, but maybe they "know" and have forgotten.  Some people for sure don't know this.  The Atlantis and the Hunqapillar have been redesigned for 650B, and the sizing has changed too.  There are no new geo charts up yet.  I was curious about a 650B Atlantis to replace my 700C Atlantis.  I reached out to Brian at Riv and we agreed that my 58cm 700c Atlantis is the right size, and that the new 56cm 650B Atlantis would be the right size for me.  That new 650B Atlantis has a nice large front center, and will have no TCO.  My 700c Atlantis does have TCO.  So, those of you saving up for a new Atlantis and keeping an eye out for a used one, be advised that it's likely two different bikes.  Same spirit, same DNA, but different creatures.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA 

[Joe Bernard]

Kellie, I think the issue you're having is that both bikes in the title of this thread are aimed at the same spot: Touring bikes you can ride off road. Neither is intended for full-on "crash into boulders" mountain biking, and the only reason that caveat comes up is that some bonehead may actually try it.

I think you should see an Appaloosa in person and ride it, then decide if you'd rather have a new one of those or a used Atlantis. In my opinion, both bikes do the same stuff.

[Steve Palincsar]

Not using toe clips will remove the "C" but the "Toe" and the "Overlap"
may well remain.

[Kellie]

Bill: I asked Rivendell this question via email yesterday regarding new Atlantis orders. I haven't heard back. All Atlantis will be 650b, or certain sizes?

[Bill Lindsay]

Who did you email?  

Dave told me that there were 53, 56 and 59 that are all 650B.  I didn't ask for a complete size run.  I nudged him that so many people these days are too shy to call, that they really should get the Geo Charts up.  

[Kellie]

Bill I emailed Will. So is it your understanding 51 and below will still be 26"? Or they won' t producing
The lower sizes?

[Michael Morrissey]

I bought an Appaloosa and I couldn't be happier with it.  It's incredible.

You can wait around for a used Atlantis to come up for sale, but I have found that not many do.  I watch Craigslist and the amount of Rivendells for sale (I get the email notifications) is maybe 1 every 8 months or so. 

m

[Kellie]

Michael: this list has many Rivendells for sale. Granted, few Atlantis. Hmmm, guess that speakers to how much ppl hang on to their bike.

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't have any opinion on what happens under 53cm.  I would pick up the phone and call them, or try Will again with Brian CC'd.  

Bill

[dougP]

"I don't have any opinion on what happens under 53cm"

I don't have any inside info but my bet would be that they would keep the 26" wheels on the 51 & under.  Hadn't looked at the geo charts in ages but looked just now to find out that 47 is no longer listed.  My 5' 2" wife has a 47 and she's max'd out on it.  It would take some serious redesign to go 650 and maintain stand-over. 

Having just 3 sizes in the mid range that likely accounts for the bulk of Atlantis sales simplifies ordering, stocking, etc.  It will be interesting to see what other changes are incorporated into the new design.  This could be interesting. 

dougP

[Kellie]

Upsetting smaller ppl are being sized out of a good bike.

[Joe Bernard]

The 51 Appaloosa and 52 Clem are 650b.

[Kellie]

Joe: I have a 50cm Cheviot and it's 650b.

[Chris Lampe 2]

I knew (and remembered) the Hunqapillar was re-designed but I don't think I knew about the Atlantis.  That will be interesting!  

[Leslie]

I've often thought that if I did come across an affordable 56 Atlantis, I'd like to 650b it;  interesting that they're going ahead and doing it themselves.   (Also thought about a 650b Hunq, and they made that happen too.)


Kellie,
Understand about wanting a bike, and having to wait to afford it.  My Ram (my first Riv), I put it on layaway; then when I got my Bomba, again, I put a down-payment, took awhile before I had it paid off. 

Your use:  I get the Saluki for long road rides, as-is my Ram. You've got your road-needs covered.   The Cheviot:  Okay, since it's a mixte, yeah, it wouldn't be as easy to put on my bike rack w/o a top-tube converter, but...  I think of it as a Mixte-Sam, and a Sam shouldn't be that much different than an Atlantis weight-wise.   The Cheviot and the Sam should be similar tubing to each other;  the Atlantis' frame is going to be, a different mix of tubing maybe, but the Atlantis will have a heavier fork:  I don't know that you'll see much of a weight-difference/savings.    

Aside from the loading-up of the bike on a rack, how do you like the Cheviot?  I think, it should be fine for a lot/most of the uses that you've outlined.   Actually, I don't think any Riv would be particularly bad at any of your mentioned uses, (save perhaps the Roadeo:  it could handle a lot of it but might be underbiking a bit);  unless you're thinking 'serious' loading, I don't know that the Atlantis would bring more to the table for your needs than the Appaloosa.     I think the Appaloosa is an awesome bike (don't have one, would like one).     But, so is the Atlantis  I can understand wanting one; it has too much overlap w/ my Bomba, I couldn't justify getting an Atlantis, but, I still would think on one if I came across one for the right price....  

Keep saving:  eventually you'll get enough saved up, that you can sell the Cheviot and buy your Atlantis.  Win.    Or, sell the Cheviot and buy the Appaloosa, still a win, just sooner.   So, whichever you get, will be fine. 


Good luck...

[tc]

Funny, I was looking for something and came across this excerpt from the Blug, Apr 5 2017 -- also from "the horse's mouth":

——grant note mostly about the 60 Cheviot—

I’ve said it more about my 60 Cheviot than I have about any other bike, that it’s the best-riding bike I’ve ever pedaled. It’s kind of hard to say, because I like all of the bikes, and I’m loving my 55 Appaloosa, but to my tastes  it’s impossible for a bike to feel better than my 60 Cheviot. All the Cheviots are good, they all have a long wheelbase for their size, but the 60′s is longest, and it’s not just that, but whatever else  it is, the combination works.

On Tuesday, August 23, 2016 at 5:04:37 PM UTC-4, Christopher Murray wrote:

Hello,

I was in the market for a new Rivendell and asked the person some would argue is the most qualified to answer which to get- Joe, Atlantis, or Custom. The response? "The Joe is the best bike ever."

That's pretty much straight from the horse's mouth.

Cheers,
Chris

[Jonathan D.]

I believe the comment from Grant also said the Joe rode 98% as well as the Cheviot. Also wasn't there a comment that if Grant was designing the Atlantis today it would be the Joe.

[Bob Lovejoy]

It has not seemed to be worth mentioning in a separate post but it may be worth noting here...

Not that I was planning it but it seemed my Appaloosa was destined to replace my Cheviot.  The Joe is such great fun and can do more of anything than any other bike I can remember.  That said, I love riding the Cheviot!  It has such a relaxed elegance to it.  Riding it, I can somehow easily imagine that all is right with the world, at least all has been right before and could be again.  It gives me such a great glimpse into those worlds and times.  I really love riding it.  I love the Joe as well, though, and look for chances to explore with it as often as possible.

They may comprise the most narrowly focused two-bike solution I can imagine, but somehow I am ok with that.  Go figure...   Both make me smile, both let me believe.

All the news from Galesburg...  A good, long weekend to all!

Bob  

[Bill Lindsay]

A half-dozen thumbprints from Uncle Billy's gives me the same feeling of everything being right with the world.  

[tc]

Yes, I remember that one, too.  Just goes to show that one bike per person hardly ever works when "want" trumps "need"!  Also, what fits and makes GP happy re: a given bike should in no way govern what anyone else thinks or feels.  We're all different ... it's all good!

[Les Lammers]

I agree with Bill 100%. Just put a few dollars away until you can make it happen. IMHO, long term satisfaction should be the goal.

 

On Monday, August 22, 2016 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

In my opinion, if you really want an Atlantis, you should wait and make it happen.  If "out of your budget" means you can't afford it yet, then wait until you can afford it.  If "out of your budget" means you could never spend that much on a frameset and feel good about riding it, then wait until you find a used one.  

If you actually want an Appaloosa, and an Appaloosa is in your budget, then go for it.  The Appaloosa is a fine bike.  But if you buy an Appaloosa and continue to want it to be an Atlantis, then you are bound to eventually regret it, and you'll be right back here again.  That's my opinion.  

Bill who-rode-his-Appaloosa-this-morning Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[tc]

Interesting, Bob.  Does anyone else here have both a Cheviot and a Joe?  I would be interested in others' comparisons - thanks!

[Bob Lovejoy]

I guess I will throw in that comparisons should probably take into account the setup and the role the rider is/was looking for.  An Atlantis for one person becomes an off-road capable cruiser, for someone else a long distance tourer, drops for some, albatross or ??? for others.

My Cheviot is fendered, smooth tired (Schwalbe Marathon Supremes, 40mm), has somewhat upright bars (MAP/Ahearnes, 570mm, the narrower ones), and is a mostly city/town based, some would say elegant, bike - though Cheviots definitely are capable of more.  I will say the Cheviot gets the most admiring comments per mile than any bike I have ever owned, maybe tied with a Brompton I had.  People immediately recognize it as an almost archetypal bike, old, refined, French,  maybe British...  And I smile every time I ride it...

The Appaloosa is capable of larger and chunkier tires (currently BG RnR's 43mm and could certainly go larger), is not currently fendered (though it could be), has somewhat more aggressive, wider bars (Nitto Bullmoose) and is set up as something like a mountain bike for grownups.  I rode it on a ~35 mile group ride this last weekend and it did absolutely great, comfortable and fast enough for the mostly relaxed group, perfect for any gravel or dirt found. My position on the Joe is slightly more aggressive and that helps with the winds we can have in NW Illinois.  I have to laugh a bit when people look at the Joe, and really like it but have no idea what to say.  It just brings together things people had not imagined being together - comfortable, touring, mountain bike, basket, two top tubes, uhhhh, what?  And I smile every time I ride it...

I have always wanted an Atlantis, maybe a Hunq, but if it was an Atlantis, I would probably build it as a drop bar bike, long distance tourer mode though, again, there is absolutely nothing keeping it from being something else.  And I know I would love it too!  But this has to stop, it just has to... :>)

The Cheviot is limited, if you want to be able to do true rough stuff, by max tire size (with caliper brakes).  The Joe and Atlantis not so much (with v-brakes or cantilevers).  This is a broad stroke but if I knew I wanted a drop-bar bike, the Atlantis would top the list (of the three).  All things are possible but, well.... the Atlantis wins (for drops) given normal dimensions and expectations.

That said, I am almost officially old, certainly not fast, and am now a convert to more upright bars, so the Joe/Cheviot combo is really working for me, though I still have other bikes and have one (last!) 650B road bike project in mind. 

Apologies for all the words!  Did not mean to write this much....  All I know is when I ride the Joe, I have great fun and cannot imagine selling it.  When I ride the Cheviot, I have great fun and absolutely cannot imagine selling it either.  Everything else in my life is up for debate but somehow, some way, not those two bikes.

Enough!  Hope the random comments help... It will be interesting to hear other comparisons.

Bob 

[Les Lammers]

I'm 65 and officially old. I have a 55cm Chevoit and labored over the purchase decision. It's very comfortable ride and extremely stable. You can ride and let your mind wander w/o worry long as you aren't doing rough stuff. Fine on 'normal' trails. I perhaps would have preferred geometry more like the JA but that may be niggling. The diagatube is great for city riding and really makes the bike very versatile.I'll probably mount a fishing rod holder. I too have MAP/Ahearne bars 61cm. They work for me with the slightly slower steering. It's fast enough and quite the elegant but practical cruiser.  If I were younger I may have gone with the JA. The JA would be the better choice if you rode more off road. Neither are drop bar bikes. No regrets though.

 

I'm old but not dead yet and have a Jeff Lyon 54cm  L'avecaise frame coming because I wanted a sporty fat tire, up to 42cm w/ fenders, ride too. This one just ticked all the boxes. :-)