Installing and using Gnome in dom0 as window manager

[Brennan Novak]

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Upon recent discussions with @rootkovska about improving the UI /
UX of Qubes, we are leaning towards switching from KDE to Gnome 3
as a window manager for both performance, user experience, and
aesthetic reasons.

I would like to start familiarizing myself and learning to
develop interface related things for Gnome. In addition to being
a designer, I am also a developer. Joanna said @marmarek can
point in the right direction with what packages and commands I
need to use to make my Qubes install use Gnome instead of KDE.

Additionally, i'm just getting re-acquainted with running Linux
on the desktop and I've never developed Linux GUI's so the entire
toolchain and process is a bit foreign to me, thus any help +
resources that can get me jumpstarted towards this goal would be
much appreciated :)

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[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

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On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 02:30:37PM -0000, Brennan Novak wrote:
> Upon recent discussions with @rootkovska about improving the UI /
> UX of Qubes, we are leaning towards switching from KDE to Gnome 3
> as a window manager for both performance, user experience, and
> aesthetic reasons.
>
> I would like to start familiarizing myself and learning to
> develop interface related things for Gnome. In addition to being
> a designer, I am also a developer. Joanna said @marmarek can
> point in the right direction with what packages and commands I
> need to use to make my Qubes install use Gnome instead of KDE.
>
> Additionally, i'm just getting re-acquainted with running Linux
> on the desktop and I've never developed Linux GUI's so the entire
> toolchain and process is a bit foreign to me, thus any help +
> resources that can get me jumpstarted towards this goal would be
> much appreciated :)

Take a look at those slides, especially slides about porting window
manager (67+):
http://www.invisiblethingslab.com/resources/2014/LinuxCon_2014_Qubes_Tutorial.pdf

The most non-trivial thing is windows decoration - colorful frames.
Others tasks are just configuration - like getting rid of file manager,
automounter etc.

Also take a look at desktop-* repositories:
https://github.com/qubesos/qubes-desktop-linux-kde
https://github.com/qubesos/qubes-desktop-linux-xfce4
https://github.com/woju/qubes-desktop-linux-awesome

Regarding installing Gnome in general - just follow standard Fedora
instructions, just instead of "yum install" use "qubes-dom0-update".

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[cprise]

On 07/25/2015 10:30 AM, Brennan Novak wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Upon recent discussions with @rootkovska about improving the UI /
> UX of Qubes, we are leaning towards switching from KDE to Gnome 3
> as a window manager for both performance, user experience, and
> aesthetic reasons.
>
> I would like to start familiarizing myself and learning to
> develop interface related things for Gnome. In addition to being
> a designer, I am also a developer. Joanna said @marmarek can
> point in the right direction with what packages and commands I
> need to use to make my Qubes install use Gnome instead of KDE.
>
> Additionally, i'm just getting re-acquainted with running Linux
> on the desktop and I've never developed Linux GUI's so the entire
> toolchain and process is a bit foreign to me, thus any help +
> resources that can get me jumpstarted towards this goal would be
> much appreciated :)
>
> -----

A caveat here. Gnome used to be known for a peculiar kind of simplicity
where just about any design/coding challenge was met with "just drop the
feature". It was infuriating to a lot of people as their corner use
cases became unworkable under Gnome. Later, when Gnome was the main DE
for Ubuntu, Gnome 2 caught up with KDE in many respects of usability,
stability and features.

Now it seems that the old attitude has returned with a vengeance. . .
Colorful button toolbars are replaced with smaller monochrome buttons
under the pretense that the latter better supports a tablet finger input
mode. Menu bars are replaced with menu buttons -- which can be OK in of
itself, except that apps end up with multiples placed with no geometric
rhyme or reason. The new totem UI is a particularly bad example here,
and it reminds me of how the KDE4 rework twisted Amarok into oblivion.
Gnome people had design issues with the playlist in the new
non-paradigm, so they *dropped* the feature. There is one main menu on
the far left, and another (with different functions) 2/3 of the way to
the right (a number of other Gnome3 apps now reflect this dual-main-menu
mistake). The window control widgets are also not ideal for Qubes and
get repeated on the toolbar (meaning the extra 'hide' and 'maximize'
buttons cannot work as these are window manager commands).

I know there has been some talk about preparing for KDE5 in dom0, and
though I haven't looked at it yet I have to question whether their
design changes would be considered as bad in general (and also for
Qubes) as Gnome's recent ones. IMO, shifting window manager widgets into
the application/domU space is definitely the wrong direction for Qubes.

Some FOSS desktop projects are dealing with the rise of mobile UIs by
emulating Microsoft's panicky, full-on emulation touch interface assault
on the PC. Ironically, its big mobile vendor Apple that has taken the
more considered and usable approach to adding new features to their
existing desktop environment.

[Unman]

I second cprises' comments. I don't want to enter in to the KDE/Gnome war - I favour
neither. But I cant think that Gnome will ADD anything to qubes, (my
experience of it has been overwhelmingly negative).
I'm not aware of any performance issues myself, and the user experience
seems fine to me - that is, I can get KDE out of the way as much as
possible. As for aesthetic reasons, it's obvious that this is pretty much
down to personal preference. So I would counsel against making Gnome the
only window manager, which is what "switching" implies to me. By all
means offer a Gnome option, in addition to xfce and KDE, but let the
user decide which to use.

[Noah Vesely]

I don't know if GNOME is significantly better performing than KDE. I have not seen numbers nor had subjective experiences (having run both) that say so at least.

Another thing to consider about GNOME (besides other users comments above) is that it lacks a start menu by default. A start menu, in my experience, helped me get organized and set up my initial system workflow. I think this might be a little bit more organized and helpful than a wall of (hopefully correctly labeled and colorized) icons for newcomers. I now just use krunner, which in addition to launching apps via their "shortcuts", allows me to execute arbitrary commands. Does anyone know if GNOME allows arbitrary commands from GNOMEDO (or whatever they're calling it)? A last thing on GNOME is I remember it lacking the extensive shortcuts configuration menu that KDE has. Coming from Awesome, I have been able to make KDE tolerable by creating keybindings for pretty much everything I want to do (the quicktile commands are especially nice for window management). With GNOME I had to write scripts using wmctrl and xdotool to do this myself.

One alternative, if you're not totally set on GNOME, is Budgie. It's still very new, and I've yet to try it, but there is a repository for Fedora. From looking at some screenshots, it is exceptionally aesthetically pleasing (looks very similar to chromeos, which I'm a big fan of aesthetically), and is also lightweight on par with Openbox +Tint2 (think arch/crunchbang).
Some pictures:

http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/82295.html

Some more + benchmarks (going to assume there is a memory leak in Fedora 22 beta this journalist tested, because that number shouldn't be so high):

http://linuxdesktopreviews.blogspot.com/2015/07/solus-020152940-hold-on-this-is-more.html

Looking at other screenshots, I've seen it's possible to get a split menu, where you see 'directories' on the left and then the 'apps' inside on the right, just like the current KDE and XFCE menus. I don't know what the feature set is like, but it's based on the GNOME stack (yet somehow much lighter as you can see), so probably pretty similar in terms of window control.

This might not be fully stable yet, but for anyone brave or with a test machine, it's available for f20:

https://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home%3Aikeydoherty%3Aevolve&package=budgie-desktop

[Brennan Novak]

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Thanks @marmarek for the links, i'll review them. I'm sure it
will take me awhile before I can actually start contributing by
writing the window decorations and such. Simply going to Fedora's
docs are a bit confusing (to a newbie like me) as Fedora seems to
ship with Gnome 3 by default. As per just getting Gnome 3 running
on my Qubes machine, I believe Joanna said there are a few
specific packages that I needed to install and that you knew what
those were.

> I don't want to enter in to the KDE/Gnome war

I really do not to get into this sort of dialogue either as it's
time consuming and not productive. I appreciate all your opinions
and where you are coming from. My goal is help make secure free
software like Mailpile (PGP email) and Qubes OS as easy to use
for the largest amount of non-technical users as possible. That
being the goal, Gnome seems like a much better base to work from
than KDE.

Sadly, this goal seems to be at odds with allowing highly
configurable idiosyncratic desktop environments for all user
types. All I can say is, sorry. Technical users will always be
free to install and / or enable other desktop environments and
configure them how they see fit.

> I don't know if GNOME is significantly better performing than KDE.

This came from comments made by Joanna which seemed based on her
knowledge of the codebases of both environments. I am defaulting
to her expertise on this as I am not qualified to judge it.

That said, I have experienced numerous cases where KDE on my
Qubes 3 rc1 instance are downright glitchy- menus render as blank
white palates and artifacts are left on the screen upon
restarting.

After testing Gnome + Qubes, I can better judge its UX
performance along these lines in real world use.

> Another thing to consider about GNOME (besides other users comments above) is that it lacks a start menu by default.

Yes, we would be looking at enabling this be default as it is
really helpful for Qubes architecture / UX to have a start menu.

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[Patrick Schleizer]

I don't think we can settle this by personal experience, perception, any
arguments and so forth.

Do we have any objective data, that makes Gnome the clear winner over
KDE in terms of usability to justify the amount of work required for
this change?

KDE is the more popular one. [1] Is popularity worth anything here?

What about reconfigurability? At Whonix we do some distribution defaults
modifications. [3] That's easy with KDE. No idea if that would work with
Gnome. Technical feasibility should play a role as well.

Cheers,
Patrick

[1]
http://www.itworld.com/article/2881172/survey-says-kde-plasma-is-the-most-popular-desktop-linux-environment.html
[2] If we can trust the survey. Maybe you have better sources.
[3] https://github.com/Whonix?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=kde-

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

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On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:15:22AM -0000, Brennan Novak wrote:
> That said, I have experienced numerous cases where KDE on my
> Qubes 3 rc1 instance are downright glitchy- menus render as blank
> white palates and artifacts are left on the screen upon
> restarting.

Actually this problem is independent of desktop environment, and already
fixed:
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1051

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[Joanna Rutkowska]

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Normally one would install GNOME desktop using:

yum group install "GNOME Desktop"


But, actually our qubes-dom0-update doesn't support yum groups. Also, when I
look at the @gnome-desktop group, it seems to contain a billion of unnecessary
packages for us -- anybody knows the minimal set of rpms to install to get a
minimal GNOME desktop? (i.e. the shell, window manager, configuration, but no
apps such as file managers, etc)

j.
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[Joanna Rutkowska]

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On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:15:22AM -0000, Brennan Novak wrote:

Amen to that.

To all those who think GNOME 3 has no "Start menu": install gnome-tweak-tool,
then enable Application Menu from there.

j.
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[Brennan Novak]

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Just following up on this thread as per Joanna's clarifying
question:

> Normally one would install GNOME desktop using: yum group install "GNOME Desktop" But, actually our qubes-dom0-update doesn't support yum groups. Also, when I look at the @gnome-desktop group, it seems to contain a billion of unnecessary packages for us -- anybody knows the minimal set of rpms to install to get a minimal GNOME desktop? (i.e. the shell, window manager, configuration, but no apps such as file managers, etc)

Marek, any simple tips and steps on which packages to install?

Thanks,
BNVK

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[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

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On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 11:08:22AM -0000, Brennan Novak wrote:
> Just following up on this thread as per Joanna's clarifying
> question:
>
> > Normally one would install GNOME desktop using: yum group install "GNOME Desktop" But, actually our qubes-dom0-update doesn't support yum groups. Also, when I look at the @gnome-desktop group, it seems to contain a billion of unnecessary packages for us -- anybody knows the minimal set of rpms to install to get a minimal GNOME desktop? (i.e. the shell, window manager, configuration, but no apps such as file managers, etc)
>
> Marek, any simple tips and steps on which packages to install?

It isn't true that qubes-dom0-update doesn't support groups.
Theoretically you could simply execute qubes-dom0-update @gnome-desktop.
But our repository doesn't contain such group - the only groups there
are those available during installation (KDE+Xfce, KDE, Xfce, and debian
templates).

Listing original gnome-desktop group yields quite long list of packages
(at the end of this email), but I guess installing just gnome-shell
should pull most of them by dependencies.


Group: GNOME
Group-Id: gnome-desktop
Description: GNOME is a highly intuitive and user friendly desktop
environment.
Mandatory Packages:
+NetworkManager-l2tp
NetworkManager-openconnect
NetworkManager-openvpn-gnome
NetworkManager-pptp-gnome
NetworkManager-vpnc-gnome
+PackageKit-command-not-found
PackageKit-gtk3-module
abrt-desktop
abrt-java-connector
+aisleriot
at-spi2-atk
at-spi2-core
avahi
baobab
bijiben
+brasero
+brasero-nautilus
caribou
caribou-gtk2-module
caribou-gtk3-module
cheese
control-center
dconf
+deja-dup
desktop-backgrounds-basic
empathy
eog
evince
evince-nautilus
evolution
evolution-ews
evolution-help
file-roller
file-roller-nautilus
+firewall-config
fprintd-pam
+fros-gnome
gdm
gedit
glib-networking
gnome-backgrounds
gnome-bluetooth
+gnome-boxes
gnome-calculator
gnome-clocks
gnome-color-manager
gnome-contacts
+gnome-dictionary
gnome-disk-utility
gnome-documents
+gnome-epub-thumbnailer
gnome-font-viewer
gnome-getting-started-docs
gnome-icon-theme
+gnome-icon-theme-extras
+gnome-icon-theme-symbolic
gnome-initial-setup
+gnome-maps
gnome-packagekit
+gnome-photos
gnome-screenshot
gnome-session-xsession
gnome-settings-daemon
gnome-shell
gnome-software
+gnome-system-log
gnome-system-monitor
gnome-terminal
gnome-themes-standard
gnome-user-docs
gnome-weather
gucharmap
gvfs-afc
gvfs-afp
gvfs-archive
gvfs-fuse
gvfs-goa
gvfs-gphoto2
gvfs-mtp
gvfs-smb
libcanberra-gtk2
libcanberra-gtk3
libproxy-mozjs
librsvg2
libsane-hpaio
mousetweaks
nautilus
nautilus-sendto
nm-connection-editor
orca
+polkit-js-engine
rhythmbox
sane-backends-drivers-scanners
seahorse
setroubleshoot
shotwell
+simple-scan
sushi
totem
+totem-mozplugin
totem-nautilus
transmission-gtk
+vinagre
xdg-user-dirs-gtk
yelp

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[Patrick Schleizer]

Since @bnvk is no longer working on this...

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806

What are the chances to get Gnome in dom0 for Qubes 4.0?

Cheers,
Patrick

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 03:56:59PM +0000, Patrick Schleizer wrote:
> Since @bnvk is no longer working on this...
>
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806
>
> What are the chances to get Gnome in dom0 for Qubes 4.0?

Much lower I'd said. Unless we'd find someone to help. Anyone willing to
help?

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[Jeremias E.]

Hello,

what exactly are the reasons for the ITL team to switch from KDE to Gnome?

What are the arguments: free software, open source, the architecture, the design etc.?

Best regards
  J. Eppler

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 11:43:34AM -0700, Jeremias E. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> what exactly are the reasons for the ITL team to switch from KDE to Gnome?
>
> What are the arguments: free software, open source, the architecture, the
> design etc.?

Mainly better UX according to our UX experts.
Any Gnome will not be the only option, if someone want to use Xfce4 or
KDE, that's fine.

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[Jeremias E.]

Hello,

have you ever thought or discussed using Cinnamon instead of pure Gnome?

There are a few features I really need in my daily workflow:

- Structured Menu
- Search function in the menu
- A taskbar where I can see all windows or in case of Qubes all Window VM groups

all those features should be one click away (Cookpit view).

Gnome 3 does not offer all of those features in a Cookpit view, this is maybe one of the reasons why Linux Mint is extremely successful.

On the other hand the Gnome 3 application tend to simplify menus to a minimum needed, which is after a short learning process much better
compared to the old style of having "File", "Edit" etc. menus.

Best regards
  J. Eppler

[Andrew David Wong]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2016-05-17 10:45, Marek Marczykowski-Górecki wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 03:56:59PM +0000, Patrick Schleizer wrote:
>> Since @bnvk is no longer working on this...
>
>> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806
>
>> What are the chances to get Gnome in dom0 for Qubes 4.0?
>
> Much lower I'd said. Unless we'd find someone to help. Anyone
> willing to help?
>

To anyone who's interested:

You can find some more details about the position here, along with all
the other positions we're currently looking to fill:

https://www.qubes-os.org/join/

- --
Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[Patrick Schleizer]

Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:

> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 03:56:59PM +0000, Patrick Schleizer wrote:
>> Since @bnvk is no longer working on this...
>
>> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806
>
>> What are the chances to get Gnome in dom0 for Qubes 4.0?
>
> Much lower I'd said. Unless we'd find someone to help. Anyone willing to
> help?
>
>

Since GNOME `might not happen for Qubes R4` and `for now we've failed
with Gnome support`... [1]

What is the decision for the `move to gnome-ish applications` ticket
[2]? Go, hold or discuss?

Cheers,
Patrick

-----

[1] source: Qubes lead engineer @marmarek
* https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/I1-sREplCHI/LZIkHmRlBgAJ
* https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/qubes-devel/cberCRs_nFE/reNS1BKOBwAJ
[2] https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1781

[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 10:52:13AM +0000, Patrick Schleizer wrote:
> Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:
> > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 03:56:59PM +0000, Patrick Schleizer wrote:
> >> Since @bnvk is no longer working on this...
> >
> >> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806
> >
> >> What are the chances to get Gnome in dom0 for Qubes 4.0?
> >
> > Much lower I'd said. Unless we'd find someone to help. Anyone willing to
> > help?
> >
> >
>
> Since GNOME `might not happen for Qubes R4` and `for now we've failed
> with Gnome support`... [1]
>
> What is the decision for the `move to gnome-ish applications` ticket
> [2]? Go, hold or discuss?

I think it would be still a good idea to switch. KDE is not the only
window manager available in Qubes, so there isn't much value in having
it the same, but on the other hand, I see gnome applications more
lightweight, which is a good thing in AppVM. Anyway not a high priority.

> Cheers,
> Patrick
>
> -----
>
> [1] source: Qubes lead engineer @marmarek
> * https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/I1-sREplCHI/LZIkHmRlBgAJ
> * https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/qubes-devel/cberCRs_nFE/reNS1BKOBwAJ
> [2] https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1781
>

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[pdu...@gmail.com]

I'm not exactly an expert programmer, but I can read and edit enough to hack bits together.
Very willing to spend time on this if anyone want to head it and needs assistance

P