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The Search for the Divine (Part 1)His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupäda
[On his way from Los Angeles to London to attend the annual Jagannatha Car Festival, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder and spiritual master of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, paused for three days at ISKCON's East Coast Headquarters in New York City. There he delivered a short series of public lectures, initiated twenty new disciples, gave personal directions to many of his students, and granted audience to selected guests and visitors. The following is a conversation, held in Srila Prabhupada's personal quarters on the second afternoon of his visit, between His Divine Grace and Mr. Paul Valliere, an Instructor of Religion at Columbia University in New York City.]
Mr. Valliere: I've been studying Russian elders in the Orthodox Church. Perhaps that's a tradition you're familiar within some way. They seem to have found the Divine. I guess I'd define it in terms of a search for the Divine.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. When you are searching with some goal, what is that goal? Why are you searching? When you are missing something, then there is a question of search. What is that missing point? You say that religion means searching after the Divine, so that means that you are missing the Divine. Do you follow?
Mr. Valliere: That's right.
Srila Prabhupada: Now, the next question will be, what do you mean by this Divine?
Mr. Valliere: Well, I'm not sure.
Srila Prabhupada: The other day we were talking with a scientist. We came to this conclusion: that the big scientists are simply observing the laws of nature. The laws of nature are very stringent. For example, there is death. Everyone will die. One cannot check death, however great a scientist he may be. By the laws of nature one becomes old. By scientific advancement they cannot stop this. Through science they are trying to overcome the stringent laws of nature, but so far, in past human history they could not, and in the present also they are unable. They say that in the future they will be able, but in the past they could not, and in the present also they are unable, so how can they overcome the laws of nature in the future? History repeats itself. The same failure is there.
Therefore, as we define it, the Divine means the controller of the laws of nature. There are laws of nature, and everyone is under these laws. No one can overcome the laws of nature. Just like state laws. Every citizen is bound to abide by the state laws; he cannot overcome them. If he overcomes or violates the law, then he becomes punishable. Similarly, the laws of nature are laws of God. Just as your President is the giver of your state laws, similarly, as soon as you say "laws of nature," there must be a giver of those laws. In our sastra, Vedic literature, it is said: dharmam hi saksad bhagavat-pranitam. Dharma, religion, means the codes given by God, and we have to abide by those codes. When we do not abide by those codes, then we violate the laws of nature or God, and we are punished. Now, who is that person or authority who is giving that law, who is controlling that law? That is the subject of the Divine search. But that Divine search can't be completed by the speculation of our imperfect senses.
Our senses are imperfect. Therefore whatever knowledge we gather by speculating with our imperfect senses is also imperfect. For example, the sun is very big -- fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth. But with our imperfect eyes we see it to be just like a disc. If we remain satisfied with this imperfect knowledge, then we will remain in darkness. We have to know the sun from the astronomers; they have calculated its size, so they know it. In this way, perfect knowledge can be attained -- when it is received through the perfect knower, not by speculation.
Speculation means to speculate with the limited mind and imperfect senses. So, however carefully or expertly I search through these instruments, they are themselves imperfect. Therefore Vedic sastra says that to understand the Divine, you must have Divine mercy. One can understand the truth by the grace of the Divine. So searching after the Divine means searching after the grace of the Divine. For example, take a very big man, just like President Nixon. I am speculating, "President Nixon is like that, like that, like this. His functions are like this, he eats like this, he sleeps like this." That is speculation. But if I hear directly from President Nixon or his very confidential representative, that is perfect knowledge. I cannot speculate and know about President Nixon with my imperfect senses. I must know about President Nixon when he speaks personally about himself or his personal associate speaks about him.
Mr. Valliere: If our senses are imperfect, then with what sense do we perceive the Divine that underlies these laws of nature?
Srila Prabhupada: I've given you an example of how our senses are imperfect. I can see the sun, but I do not see the sun perfectly. I have the power to see the sun, but I do not know how big the sun is. In this way my senses are imperfect. But when I see the sun and hear about it from a perfect person who knows about the sun, then my knowledge becomes perfect, although I have imperfect senses. I cannot understand President Nixon by my speculation. But when the President speaks about himself, I can understand, although I have imperfect senses. This is the process. We are imperfect in this way -- that our senses cannot approach the ultimate point by speculation.
Mr. Valliere: I agree with that, but I still ... The perfect person that is going to speak to me is God? Is that the analogy?
Srila Prabhupada: That we will have to find later on. First of all the principle should be accepted -- that unless we hear from the perfect person, our knowledge is imperfect. First of all we have to agree to this point. That is why one goes to schools, colleges and universities. If at home one could learn everything, then why should he go to schools, colleges and universities? It is not possible to get perfect knowledge by oneself. Therefore the Vedic injunction is that in order to gain perfect knowledge one has to approach the proper person, who is known as guru.
Mr. Valliere: That's what I was getting at.
[A newsman, with two assistants and electronic equipment, has been trying to see Srila Prabhupada.]
Newsman (whispering to Syamasundara dasa, Srila Prabhupada's secretary): Can I ask a couple of questions, and then I'll leave?
Syamasundara: Please, ask, yes.
Newsman: Svami, please. I'm ... If I may interrupt, I'd just like to ask a few questions. Then I'll go so that you can continue. Tell me, what do you think accounts for your popularity, the popularity of the Krsna consciousness movement in America?
Srila Prabhupada: It is not due to my personality. It is because I am presenting the truth as it is. To give an example, if you prepare some food with nice ingredients, it will be appealing to everyone. And if you prepare something obnoxious, maybe it will appeal to a certain section but not to all.
Newsman: What can appreciation of Krsna do for the Americans of this country?
Srila Prabhupada: As I have repeatedly said, you Americans already have the grace of the Lord. According to our Vedic formula, when a man is born in a rich family, he is understood to possess the grace of the Lord. You Americans have sufficient riches. You are sons of rich men. So this is the grace of God. Janma sabhya-sutah: to take birth in a high family, to possess riches. Janma sabhya-sutah: to become a learned scholar. You are going to the moon. Your scientific knowledge is advanced. And sri -- sri means beauty. You are beautiful also. So, considering all these points, it is to be understood that you are in a favorable condition; you have the favorable consideration of the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Now, if you take to Krsna consciousness, or God consciousness, then all of these material opulences -- plus Krsna consciousness -- will make your life perfect.
Newsman: Do you foresee that the devotees will grow in number in this country?
Srila Prabhupada: There is a possibility. Otherwise, why are these young men coming? There is a good possibility, but we have no facility. The government is spending millions of dollars to stop LSD intoxication. But our students -- as soon as they become my students, I simply order them: "No intoxication." So what to speak of LSD, they do not take tea, they do not take coffee, nor do they smoke. But the government will not help us. That is the difficulty.
Newsman: Do you seek government help?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. If I get government help I can give protection to these confused, frustrated youth. I have no proper house to accommodate them, to feed them. With great difficulty I am pushing on this movement. But if the government comes forward and gives me a little facility, I can turn the face of your country -- immediately. There will be no problem.
Newsman: What is your cure? What can you make better?
Srila Prabhupada: This is the cure -- I am making men of good character. Don't you see their faces? Some of them were hippies in a frustrated, wretched condition. Now they are known as bright faced. See their character! They don't have illicit sex; they don't eat meat; they don't take any intoxicants; they don't indulge in gambling. These are the four pillars of sinful life. If you allow people to indulge in sinful life, how can you expect good citizens? That's not possible. Their character must be formed. So we have gone to the root. We are making men of character, knowledge, sincerity and God consciousness. Don't you appreciate it?
Newsman: Will they be able to function in the society as working individuals?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. There is nothing prohibited. You simply have to change your consciousness. That's all. We are also eating. We are also sleeping. Many of our students are householders; they have sex. So there is nothing prohibited, but everything is regulated for higher achievement. That is our program.
Newsman: Do you see yourself, then, as the saviour of the American youth?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Certainly. This movement is saving them already. It is not future. It is present, practical.
Newsman: Thank you very much. [The newsman, in a hurry to go, begins to gather his electronic equipment.] Good luck.
Srila Prabhupada: Thank you.
[A devotee escorts the newsman to the door, and Srila Prabhupada resumes his discussion with Mr. Valliere.]
Srila Prabhupada: So religion -- it is simple -- religion means the laws of God. Simple definition. And one wh'o follows the laws of God pleases God. It doesn't matter whether he's Christian, Hindu, Muslim. It doesn't matter. Take for example your Christian religion. Lord Jesus Christ says, "Thou shalt not kill." But I think that almost cent percent of the Christian people are very much engaged in killing. So they are disobeying the laws of God. Don't you think so? What is right? [Srila Prabhupada turns his head, waiting for an answer to his rhetorical question.] Then if you disobey the laws of God, what is your religion? It is simply show. God said, or God's representative, God's son, Jesus Christ, said, "Thou shalt not kill." But in the whole Christian world the killing art is very much favored -- maintaining slaughterhouses, shooting in sports and creating Vietnams. So many things -- simply killing. And any film shown, when it is a killing film, is very popular. I see in your parks the soldiers killing. This park I was passing through? What is that park?
Syamasundara: Prospect Park.
Srila Prabhupada: Prospect Park. There is a big gate. There is a killing picture.
Syamasundara: Praising the soldiers.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Of course, soldiers' killing and ordinary killing are not the same. But my point is that God gives you the law that you should not kill. Now, if we are violating that law, then how can we be religious? That is my question.
Mr. Valliere: Your Grace, is nonviolence, not killing -- that is part of Krsna consciousness, isn't it?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Valliere: What's the future of that in India today?
Srila Prabhupada: Not only in India -- Krsna consciousness is not meant for India or America. Of course, I have been deputed by my guru maharaja [spiritual master] to spread this Krsna consciousness movement in the Western world. That is his grace. Since Western people are intelligent, he wanted them to learn what Krsna consciousness is. So my mission is in the Western countries, but it is not meant for any particular country or nation. It is meant for every living entity.
Now, there are many unfortunate living entities, and there are many fortunate living entities. We are preaching this Krsna consciousness movement in American and the Western countries, and only the fortunate persons are coming. But if a few of them come and understand, then by their example and behavior the whole population will be favorably influenced. It is not expected that cent percent of the population will be able to understand this philosophy ot Krsna consciousness. But by the example of a few ... yad yad acarati sresthas. For example, you'll find that our temple is always crowded to the fullest extent. We require a more spacious hall. But not all of them are initiated students. Out of them, say ten percent are initiated students. But still people are coming to see. They're following. Gradually they will also become students.
* "Whatever action is performed by a great man (common men follow in his footsteps)." (Bhagavad-gita, 3.21)
So this is a very important scientific movement. I therefore request learned scholars like you -- government officials, scientists, philosophers -- to study this. It is for them that we have written so many books. Not only that ... it is not that we are simply chanting and dancing. If you are a philosopher, if you are a scholar, if you are a scientist. we can give you food for thought in a scientific, philosophical, scholarly way. So my only request is that all the leaders of society come forward, study this movement and take to it. That will be beneficial. We don't ask that they do so blindly, just as one follows some type of faith or religion blindly and after some time gives it up. No. We say, sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara. You just use your judgement about the mercy of Lord Caitanya, and if you do that, then you'll find wonders in this movement.
[Bhagavandasa, a disciple, brings Srila Prabhupada some water, and Srila Prabhupada calls for some ice. Bhaktijanadasa, a disciple engaged in preaching work in Harlem, enters the room with a dozen or so Negro devotees from the Brooklyn temple and Negro boys and girls who have been attracted to the Krsna consciousness movement in Harlem. Srila Prabhupada welcomes them -- "Hare Krsna. Come on" -- and they fall to the floor before him and offer their obeisances. A few more Negro devotees enter the room and offer their obeisances, and again Srila Prabhupada encourages them -- "Hare Krsna. Thank you very much." They all join the devotees who are already sitting gathered around Srila Prabhupada, and the conversation continues.]
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