Questions about installed Java versions

[Graham Norris]

Currently, there are two Java versions supported by Oracle and OpenJDK. These are 8 and 11. Both of these are long term support releases, with Java 8 supported, for individual use, until at least December 2020.

1: Are you using Java 8 or 11?

2: If not 8 or 11, why not (since what you are using will contain known vulnerabilities which will never be patched?)

3: If Java 8 (or lower) is it 32- or 64-bit?

4: If 32-bit, is that because you do not have a 64-bit operating system, and if not, which operating system is it?

5: If it is 64-bit Java 8, why are you not using Java 11 instead (e.g. not available for your operating system?)

These questions are intended to determine if it would matter to anyone if Polarbar requires a 64-bit Java and if that Java cannot be Java 11.

Graham.

[WildWilly]

1: Are you using Java 8 or 11?

java -version says:

java version "1.8.0_191"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_191-b12)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 25.191-b12, mixed mode, sharing)

 

3: If Java 8 (or lower) is it 32- or 64-bit?

Task Manager says

java.exe *32

Hmmmm.  I guess that means it's 32-bit.

 

4: If 32-bit, is that because you do not have a 64-bit operating system, and if not, which operating system is it?

I'm running 64-bit Windows 7.  Not sure why my Java isn't 64-bit.  I've just always taken whatever the automatic updates gave me.  I suspect I first installed Java when a 64-bit version was not available & it never pushed my up to the 64-bit version.  What would be the costs & benefits of my upgrading?  Any special pitfalls you could warn me about before I go hunting for a 64-bit Java8?  PBM works fine with this setup so I've never been particularly motivated to investigate further.

 

5: If it is 64-bit Java 8, why are you not using Java 11 instead (e.g. not available for your operating system?)

I suppose I could go to J11.  I think I got the impression it's more complicated.  I think I got that impression from things you posted, Graham.  Again, costs & benefits?  Pitfalls to avoid?

Is it possible to keep multiple versions of Java on the system simultaneously?  I would suppose I'd want to keep J8 as the default & J11 as selectable via a script.  I already launch PBM via a script so that's not an issue.  Just wondering how I would keep 2 Javas & prevent the install of J11 from stepping on J8 via default placement of modules which would overlay J8 pieces with J11 pieces.

The only topic about mattering is whether I can continue using PBM.  Java being 32-bit vs 64-bit, J8 vs J11, is entirely uninteresting to me.  What's interesting to me is whether PBM will continue to be my E-mail client.  I have been wondering, based on your posts over the past few months, whether I was in for a switch to . . . well, I guess I would go with Thunderbird since I use Firefox.  But I'd rather be lazy & just stick with PBM, since I've been with it since the beginning & JStreet before that.  How long has that been?  20 years?  No, I don't really want to move off PBM but I will if I have no choice.

[WildWilly]

Oh.  And PostRoad Mailer before that.

[Graham Norris]

Generally, there is no downside to using 64-bit Java if you have a 64-bit OS. There are two exceptions. First if you are extremely memory constrained, meaning less than 2GB, 32-bit Java will probably perform slightly better. Second if you use a 32-bit web browser *and* run Java applets in it; this is becoming less and less common.

Get Java from https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jre8-downloads-2133155.html, select the Windows x64 .exe.

To install it, first uninstall your 32-bit Java, then install the 64-bit one. (Well, first stop anything like Polarbar which uses Java, but hopefully that's obvious!) Anything which uses Java should then carry on work exactly as they did previously.

At some point, you will need to move to OpenJDK (unless you want to pay Oracle for the priviledge of using Java) in order to remain supported. Java applications which use newer (i.e. Java 9 onwards) features may require you to use OpenJDK much sooner. This may include your favouriate email program!

Graham.

[WildWilly]

Thanks, Graham.  I'm gathering from this answer that you don't think I should go to OpenJDK at this time, neither OpenJDK8 nor OpenJDK11.  Am I correct?  I mean, if Oracle Java is going to be a pay thing, I'd just as soon go to Open Java now.  If Open Java 8 exists, I'd just as soon do that instead of messing with Oracle.  But if PBM is ready for OpenJDK11, I'll go there.  You tell me.

[WildWilly]

I'm also gathering that you don't think I should have both J8 & J11 on my system at the same time.  Correct?

[Carlpmiller]

I run with multiple JDK’s and use JEnv to flip between them easily. But I’m on OS X. I think http://jenv.mvnsearch.org/ supports windows but it sounds like you need PowerShell and such to make it work the same. 

Carl

On Oct 30, 2018, at 12:36 PM, WildWilly <wild...@fuse.net> wrote:

I'm also gathering that you don't think I should have both J8 & J11 on my system at the same time.  Correct?

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[Graham Norris]

OpenJDK 11 works with existing Polarbar code, but with caveats. Those caveats also apply to OpenJDK 8, which I've not tried but should work too. Caveat #1 is that there is no installer for OpenJDK, so you have to be prepared to unzip it and make any changes necessary to use it yourself. Caveat #2 is that OpenJDK does not contain JavaFX, so you'll need to unzip that yourself and make it work too. This is not entirely straightforward, so it entirely depends on your confidence level whether you go with OpenJDK right now.

You can have both Java 11 and Java 8 on your machine at the same time. You can have 32-bit and 64-bit Java on your machine at the same time. In fact, you can have dozens of Javas on one machine at once, but figuring out which one will be used is a nightmare, not least because Oracle in their wisdom have got "current version" in two different places in the Windows registry, one for Java up to 8 and another for Java 9 upwards. You are likely to find multiple Javas on your PATH too. So unless you know you want multiple Javas at once, don't do it.

Because you'd have to install OpenJDK yourself, you can make sure you are using the expected Java if you also have 8 installed.

Graham.

[Graham Norris]

PowerShell is part of recent Windows setups, but it isn't much like a regular cmd.exe (or command.exe, or *nix shell for that matter) command line! It is very powerful but ... different. Windows has no real concept of java_home, and just like current version, Java can have two of them in teh Windows registry - neither of which are in the normal environment.

Graham.

[WildWilly]

Thanks both of you for your comments.  I think I'm going to stay away from Power Shell.  I don't really want 2 Javas on my system.  I was just wondering how experimental this was & whether I might need to swap back & forth between Java versions.  I think I'll do the J11 thing.  Caveat #1 doesn't scare me.  As long as there's a README in there, I'm sure I can follow it.  As for Caveat #2, thanks for that warning.  I would not have known I needed that as well.  I am looking at this page https://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk/11/ which appears to have the JDK 11 that I need.  There is something way down the page called OpenJFX.  That's the JavaFX thing you're talking about, right?  At some point in the next x days, 1 < x < 1000, I will mess around with this.  I suppose if I screw it up, I can always reinstall Oracle J8.  But I doubt I will need to.  Again, thanks for the help.

[WildWilly]

Just to be totally certain, I believe the link to get Windows Open JDK 11 is here: https://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/11.

FX is a bit trickier.  I'm looking at this page: https://gluonhq.com/products/javafx/. There's something there called "JavaFX Windows SDK" & something else there called "JavaFX Windows jmods."  Which do I want?  Or do I want both?

[Carlpmiller]

You don’t need the jmods. SDK will get you FX support. 

Carl

On Oct 30, 2018, at 2:13 PM, WildWilly <wild...@fuse.net> wrote:

Just to be totally certain, I believe the link to get Windows Open JDK 11 is here: https://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/11.

FX is a bit trickier.  I'm looking at this page: https://gluonhq.com/products/javafx/. There's something there called "JavaFX Windows SDK" & something else there called "JavaFX Windows jmods."  Which do I want?  Or do I want both?

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[Ragbert]

Hi all, I've been following this discussion closely, although not
being a Java programmer, I don't always have much to contribute. But
I thought I'd at least answer your questions, Graham:

First, the PC on which I use Polarbar is packed at the moment, since I
moved recently and I don't have my usual office stuff set up yet. So
I'm working from what I hope is accurate memory here.

The PC has Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit on it, and I believe the latest
Java I have is 8.something, also 64-bit. I'm also pretty sure I still
have a 32-bit Java on it - although I guess I don't need 2 Javas.
Both have always been updated at the same time. Since Polarbar is
almost my only reason for needing Java (the other program using Java
is Libre Office), I only update Java if it nags me, or if a
vulnerability has been found that requires an update. Otherwise, if
Polarbar is working with no issues (as it almost always is), I leave
Java alone.

What I'm typing on now is a small travel laptop running Windows 7
Professional, 32-bit. It has 2 GB of RAM and an Atom CPU, and I'm
pretty sure it won't support a 64-bit OS. It has Java 7 on it from
2013 but I've never had Polarbar on it (not sure why - 10" screen is
too small?). Usually I use Thunderbird on it (different email address)
or the GMail website in HTML mode for things like Google Groups.

I have no experience with Java 11 or OpenJDK, but if Java is going to
stop being free (when is this?) then I guess I'd stop updating it and
use what I have as long as it works. I really hope NOT to have to
give up Polarbar, even though I can't use it on any portable devices.

If we have to eventually switch to OpenJDK, I'm game as long as
someone here will give us a simple guide for installing it and editing
a Polarbar script to work with it.

I'm so grateful for this small group and for those of you willing to
help keep Polarbar usable!

RAG

[Graham Norris]

Thanks for commenting.

Polarbar will work just fine on a very small PC. I have it installed on an 8" Windows tablet with 32-bit W8.1 and it works perfectly well.

Java doesn't cease to be free, but *Oracle* Java ceases to be free, and if you need something which is only found in Java 9 or newer, it already isn't as both Java 9 and Java 10 are no longer supported. Oracle's Java 8 is still free, but when Java 8 ceases to be supported (12/2020,) then the only free Java will be OpenJDK.

As a general comment, if you are not using Java on a particular PC, I'd get rid of it, but if you are using it, get it up to date.

Graham.

[WildWilly]

OK so I thought I'd take the plunge.  You know, new year, new problems to seek out, to boldly go blah blah blah.  There's no readme inside the zip file.  The alleged so-called install instructions on the OpenJDK web site just say unzip the install zip file.  Doesn't say WHERE to unzip it, just to unzip it.  And, once again, there is no readme.  No help, no hints.  Ditto for JFX.  It's like if you're not in the Brotherhood of Wizards, you may not enter.  I throw myself at your feet in abject misery begging for just the tiniest crumb of a clue.

[WildWilly]

OK so the short version is . . . never mind.

Now here's the longer version.  I found this https://stackoverflow.com/questions/52511778/how-to-install-openjdk-11-on-windows bit of help via Google search & went from there.  As recommended above (& on that web page), I started by uninstalling my existing Java.  Then I went to unzip the downloaded archive.  And it didn't.  Since I do so love being the butt of jokes, I'll explain why it didn't open.  I have a fancy front end for zip/unzip (named RPF Zip Control) that I paid a very modest amount for many years ago & it works wonderfully . . . when you have Java installed.  See, I forgot the program is a Java app.  I can feel the laughter from all & sundry.  Thank you.  It energizes me.  Anyway, I figured out how to write an unzip command, which I could do because Zip Control of course includes buth zip & unzip.  It's really complicated: unzip name-of-zip-file.  Even I could manage that.  The hard part was getting all the directory paths right for both unzip & the downloaded Java archive.  But I managed it.  I placed the results of unzip in %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java.  I noticed I have a SET value for the x(86) directory so I didn't have to mess with quotation marks to deal with the blanks in the directory names.

I then followed the instructions on that web page for updating my system SET PATH to include a pointer to the bin subdirectory of what I unzipped.  For good measure I also defined a SET JAVA_HOME to %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\jdk-11.0.1.  No trailing \.  Should I have a trailing \ in the SET?  I always thought that wasn't necessary but I'm in learning mode today so do teach me if it should be otherwise.  Also, should JAVA_HOME point where I have it or should it be one step higher in the directory tree, pointing to %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java instead?

Then I held my breath & executed java -version.  To my immeasurable relief, it responded with this:

H:\JSTREET>java -version
openjdk version "11.0.1" 2018-10-16
OpenJDK Runtime Environment 18.9 (build 11.0.1+13)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM 18.9 (build 11.0.1+13, mixed mode)

Then I unzipped the JavaFX thing (using Zip Control since I now had a functioning Java once again) into %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java, putting it beside the Java install.  Was that correct?  Or should I have installed it with Java into %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\jdk-11.0.1?  It sure would be nice if the Brotherhood of Wizards supplied just the slightest hint of installation instructions worthy of the name.

So PBM still works just fine, using the exact same script to launch it that I was using before, although initially I about had a heart attack when it first opened because it was in a gigantic window with oversize type.  So I had to change my font size settings from 18 to 14.  A font size of 18 was nice & pretty under the old Java.  This new Java rendered that way bigger so I shrank all my font sizes down to 14 & that seems to display nicely.  After a fair bit of resizing & repositioning of windows & other things, everything looks & works pretty much as it did.  So far.  I'm not sure what predatory beasts are waiting in the weeds to pounce on me as time goes on, but it looks good so far.

[WildWilly]

Oh.  Here's one thing I think I'm missing.  There used to be a task, or maybe it was a service, launched at boot time, that sat around monitoring the world & letting me know when an update for Java had become available.  I think that's been discarded from the package.  What are we supposed to do now?  Check the OpenJava web site every few days?

[WildWilly]

It occurs to me that I should ask more specific questions about the install of JFX.  Currently I have both %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\javafx-sdk-11.0.1 & %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\jdk-11.0.1.  Is this correct?  Or should I have %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\jdk-11.0.1\javafx-sdk-11.0.1?  Or should the various subdirectories I currently have under %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\javafx-sdk-11.0.1 simply have their contents merged into the subdirectories of the same names under %ProgramFiles(x86)%\Java\jdk-11.0.1, plus separate subdirectories for the bits of JFX that don't have analogous subdirectories as part of the JDK installation?  Very subtle possibilities here that would have been so easily dealt with if only they supplied an installer.  What ever possessed them to not bother with such a thing?  Not everybody is a total geek about such things.  I mean, I'm pretty geeky & even I have questions.  This shouldn't have such a high barrier for entry.

[Graham Norris]

Yes. And the OpenJFX one. I've already been caught out by this.

[Graham Norris]

You need one directory for OpenJDK and one for OpenJFX. If you merge them, things will break. I don't think anyone at Oracle cares that things have been made much more difficult for regular users, and the OpenJDK/OpenJFX folks either have no time to improve things or don't care either.

[WildWilly]

OK.  So there's no scheduled updater.  I'll just check every so often.  I'll post here if I see an update.  Maybe if we all decide to keep an eye on it, we can help each other stay up to date.

And I seem to have managed to bumble my way into doing the Java & JFX installs correctly.  I have a parent directory which contains just 2 items: the root directory for Java + the root directory for JFX.  Aside from your confirmation that the directories need to be separate, PBM has been working without problems since I posted.

You did not answer my questions about SET.  I have SET JAVA_HOME pointing to the Java directory within the parent directory.  Is this correct or should it be pointing to the parent directory?  Or some other subdirectory?  Also what about the trailing \ on the SET values?  Everything is working . . . so far.  But maybe I haven't exercised anything that would fail due to the SET pointing to the wrong directory or my leaving the \ off.

And what features of PBM exercise the JFX stuff?

Thanks for all your pioneering here.  You've probably blazed the trail that will keep me (perhaps other diehard loyal fans, too) using PBM for the foreseeable future.

Happy New Year!

[Carlpmiller]

JAVA_HOME should be set to the directory above the “bin” dir. No trailing slash. 

The WebKit message viewer leverages Java FX code. 

Carl

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[WildWilly]

Excellent!  Thank you.  So I managed to bumble my way to doing something else right.  I find that nearly miraculous.

So if I can see the contents of an E-mail in the body pane of the main PBM window, I'm exercising JFX.  Great.  So I guess I got it all done properly.  Thanks again.