I resign
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Mike van Riel
Jun 26, 2016, 4:05:49 PM6/26/16
to php...@googlegroups.com
Dear all,
In these last few days I have done a fair bit of soul-searching, both the kind where you try to reflect how you sound to others and on how others sound to you.
In my search I have heard voices of (former) members of PHP-FIG and people who stick to Reddit instead of having an open discussion on this forum with regards to how the current situation is dealt with. And in those voices I have heard various half-truths and lies that take on a more personal form for me.
The least is that this discussion is triggered by some sort of dislike for Paul (as is said by Cal Evans, Evert Pot and some others). Perhaps for some of the people on the complainers list it is; I know that for me it isn’t. Not by a long shot. However; since I posted a message in the thread people have become convinced that I must hate Paul for I am on ‘the list’. And that hurts me. It also hurts me that these people prefer not reading what I have written and prefer to stick to their lies and half-truths. So be it.
My lefty convictions are probably quite unpopular with Paul and a few others here and that should be OK; they may even dislike me for it. Paul’s political point of views are his own; I do not have to like them, I may even find some of them quite creepy but as long as that stays out of this group than it should not bother me. As long as I do not have to interact with this part of Paul than that is fine by me; he has the god-given right to think what he wants.
As I have repeatedly said in the accompanying thread, Paul as a person is not the cause of my dissatisfaction; his, in my eyes, occasional disrespectful method of discourse is. So here I am; repeating myself as if I were a broken record player. It is becoming apparent that something is off but no matter how long I reflect; I do not find the precise answer.
So far I discern two non-mutually exclusive options, but do not discount others:
A) I am part of the problem; I see and hear things that aren’t there or are far less important than I make them to be.
B) There are more people here who exhibit or enable behaviour that I cannot accept in good conscience.
As Paul is attributed with a profound passion and love for PHP-FIG, so do I hope to care as much as is attributed to him. If B were to be the case than my passion for PHP-FIG would compel me to address that or to find distress from such occurrences happening. The latter is not good for my sanity and the former is, publicly, not good for PHP-FIG; meaning that I end up losing either way.
If A were to be the case, or if I have become A because of B; then no-one wins. Not me, not the FIG, no-one.
As such, I have chosen to resign as representative for phpDocumentor effective immediately and in a few days I will leave the PHP-FIG mailing list altogether. As much as I would have loved seeing PSR-5 become a reality I did not have the stamina or thick skin to see that through. Unless someone else within the team carries the torch, I will be setting up a version of it under the phpDocumentor product as a description of the de-facto PHPDoc Standard as it has always been. I cannot be editor if I don’t come here anymore.
As to the fate of PSR-5; I hope that someone else will continue the work, it would even be lovely if I can contribute to it from the sidelines but otherwise it will stay as it is now.
I wish the PHP-FIG the best of luck and the rest and stability that it deserves,
Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
In these last few days I have done a fair bit of soul-searching, both the kind where you try to reflect how you sound to others and on how others sound to you.
In my search I have heard voices of (former) members of PHP-FIG and people who stick to Reddit instead of having an open discussion on this forum with regards to how the current situation is dealt with. And in those voices I have heard various half-truths and lies that take on a more personal form for me.
The least is that this discussion is triggered by some sort of dislike for Paul (as is said by Cal Evans, Evert Pot and some others). Perhaps for some of the people on the complainers list it is; I know that for me it isn’t. Not by a long shot. However; since I posted a message in the thread people have become convinced that I must hate Paul for I am on ‘the list’. And that hurts me. It also hurts me that these people prefer not reading what I have written and prefer to stick to their lies and half-truths. So be it.
My lefty convictions are probably quite unpopular with Paul and a few others here and that should be OK; they may even dislike me for it. Paul’s political point of views are his own; I do not have to like them, I may even find some of them quite creepy but as long as that stays out of this group than it should not bother me. As long as I do not have to interact with this part of Paul than that is fine by me; he has the god-given right to think what he wants.
As I have repeatedly said in the accompanying thread, Paul as a person is not the cause of my dissatisfaction; his, in my eyes, occasional disrespectful method of discourse is. So here I am; repeating myself as if I were a broken record player. It is becoming apparent that something is off but no matter how long I reflect; I do not find the precise answer.
So far I discern two non-mutually exclusive options, but do not discount others:
A) I am part of the problem; I see and hear things that aren’t there or are far less important than I make them to be.
B) There are more people here who exhibit or enable behaviour that I cannot accept in good conscience.
As Paul is attributed with a profound passion and love for PHP-FIG, so do I hope to care as much as is attributed to him. If B were to be the case than my passion for PHP-FIG would compel me to address that or to find distress from such occurrences happening. The latter is not good for my sanity and the former is, publicly, not good for PHP-FIG; meaning that I end up losing either way.
If A were to be the case, or if I have become A because of B; then no-one wins. Not me, not the FIG, no-one.
As such, I have chosen to resign as representative for phpDocumentor effective immediately and in a few days I will leave the PHP-FIG mailing list altogether. As much as I would have loved seeing PSR-5 become a reality I did not have the stamina or thick skin to see that through. Unless someone else within the team carries the torch, I will be setting up a version of it under the phpDocumentor product as a description of the de-facto PHPDoc Standard as it has always been. I cannot be editor if I don’t come here anymore.
As to the fate of PSR-5; I hope that someone else will continue the work, it would even be lovely if I can contribute to it from the sidelines but otherwise it will stay as it is now.
I wish the PHP-FIG the best of luck and the rest and stability that it deserves,
Kind regards,
Mike van Riel
Christopher Pitt
Jun 26, 2016, 4:10:49 PM6/26/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
Thank you for all the work you've done here, Mike. Sad to see you go, but I hope you feel better for it.
Woody Gilk
Jun 26, 2016, 4:31:43 PM6/26/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Mike van Riel <draco...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, I have great respect for the way you choose to express your
opinion and I think it is a huge loss for FIG that you leave. I think
your email gets at something that I was trying to express in my
previous email...
> I do not have to like them, I may even find some of them quite creepy but as long as that stays out of this group than it should not bother me. As long as I do not have to interact with this part of Paul than that is fine by me; he has the god-given right to think what he wants.
This is not my stance and not a stance that I can agree with. At one
point in my life, I thought meritocracy made sense. What people did
professionally was all that should matter in how I treated them as a
colleague. I've come to understand that this sweeps far too much under
the rug, hurts the public perception of communities, and undermines
leadership.
We must all be accountable for what we say in public, even if we keep
those views in different spheres. It is not enough to say "this person
is a racist, but since they are never racist at work, I guess it's
okay". We shouldn't accept behavior that is socially unacceptable just
because it happens "after hours". And let me be perfectly clear here
and say that I respect personal privacy. I am only talking about
public information that is freely available.
My bottom line is that if you want to be part of a community,
especially if you want to have a leadership position, you need to be
willing to be held accountable for what you say in public. This is why
having a code of conduct that clearly states that members are _always_
acting as the face of the organization when they express things in
public is so important. If you are a member of a public organization,
what you say on Twitter is absolutely public expression and, by
association, representation of that organization. I very much hope
that this is recognized as a necessity for FIG moving forward.
If this situation is not resolved appropriately, I worry that FIG will
be lose the respect of the PHP community at large.
--
Woody Gilk
http://about.me/shadowhand
Mike, I have great respect for the way you choose to express your
opinion and I think it is a huge loss for FIG that you leave. I think
your email gets at something that I was trying to express in my
previous email...
> I do not have to like them, I may even find some of them quite creepy but as long as that stays out of this group than it should not bother me. As long as I do not have to interact with this part of Paul than that is fine by me; he has the god-given right to think what he wants.
point in my life, I thought meritocracy made sense. What people did
professionally was all that should matter in how I treated them as a
colleague. I've come to understand that this sweeps far too much under
the rug, hurts the public perception of communities, and undermines
leadership.
We must all be accountable for what we say in public, even if we keep
those views in different spheres. It is not enough to say "this person
is a racist, but since they are never racist at work, I guess it's
okay". We shouldn't accept behavior that is socially unacceptable just
because it happens "after hours". And let me be perfectly clear here
and say that I respect personal privacy. I am only talking about
public information that is freely available.
My bottom line is that if you want to be part of a community,
especially if you want to have a leadership position, you need to be
willing to be held accountable for what you say in public. This is why
having a code of conduct that clearly states that members are _always_
acting as the face of the organization when they express things in
public is so important. If you are a member of a public organization,
what you say on Twitter is absolutely public expression and, by
association, representation of that organization. I very much hope
that this is recognized as a necessity for FIG moving forward.
If this situation is not resolved appropriately, I worry that FIG will
be lose the respect of the PHP community at large.
--
Woody Gilk
http://about.me/shadowhand
Damian Mooyman
Jun 26, 2016, 10:10:29 PM6/26/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
I just want to poke my nose in and thank Mike for his work on PSR-5. I appreciate your contribution, and am sad to see you have to put it aside. I regret that I am not already over-committed in other areas, or I'd love to put myself forward to assist with maintenance / sponsorship. =(
Alexander Makarov
Jun 27, 2016, 5:44:13 AM6/27/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
Thanks for all the work done on PSR-5. Hope to see you back one day.
Dracony
Jun 27, 2016, 9:25:56 AM6/27/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
Damn, that sucks =(
I really hope we'll be able to somehow deal with all the differences without more people leaving =(
Michiel Rook
Jun 27, 2016, 10:02:05 AM6/27/16
to php...@googlegroups.com
> If this situation is not resolved appropriately, I worry that FIG will
be lose the respect of the PHP community at large.
Assuming that hasn't happened already, all this drama definitely will do
be lose the respect of the PHP community at large.
just that.
Lukas Kahwe Smith
Jun 27, 2016, 10:42:29 AM6/27/16
to php...@googlegroups.com
But just as php-src, FIG has continued to release PSR’s which have been adopted quickly by many projects.
So yes there could be less politics talk, less drama, more productivity to be able to release PSR’s quicker .. but lets also not make this group smaller than it is ..
for all its faults, FIG is very important for PHP!
regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
sm...@pooteeweet.org
Adam Culp
Jun 27, 2016, 10:51:27 AM6/27/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
Too bad. Perhaps once things settle down, or you find yourself more able to cope with drama without taking it too personal, you might return. See you around.
Regards,
Adam Culp
Jordi Boggiano
Jun 27, 2016, 12:05:24 PM6/27/16
to php...@googlegroups.com
Adam if you don't have anything to add please refrain from posting.
Especially if you are just going to post exactly the kind of
condescending comment Mike talked about.
Maybe you meant well here, but it's not coming across very well.
Best,
Jordi
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Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek - http://seld.be
Especially if you are just going to post exactly the kind of
condescending comment Mike talked about.
Maybe you meant well here, but it's not coming across very well.
Best,
Jordi
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Jordi Boggiano
@seldaek - http://seld.be
Adam Culp
Jun 27, 2016, 3:37:03 PM6/27/16
to PHP Framework Interoperability Group
Jordi,
Of course I meant nothing condescending by my post. I had other personal communications with Mike, and I sincerely meant my words in a caring way. I'm sorry you took it as condescending, and a little surprised. However, in light of recent events I suppose we are all under a microscope. Too bad. Communication will suffer.
Regards,
Adam Culp
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