Re: Have you seen God?

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Anu,

       It was very nice to see your remarks. When we are discussing religion, we may not be doing justice to the people who define and practice religion the right way. Yes, there are people who still misinterpret the laws of a land and get away with murder. But still, don't we still respect the legal system with the hope that some day there will be justice?

       It is not just in relgion, there are so many people who have exploited records of history and presented pictures of religion, science, medicine,  laws of land, and there are people from all fields who exploit the masses for personal benefits. We have thrived in our lives in spite of those exploiters because we have at least some common sense to understand the difference between a genuine one and a fake professional and keep safely away.

       We  also see so many educated people still fall for their tricks and spend a fortune and lose. I for one pity on all those people who believe that it is necessary to keep eating pills and hope to be healthy, When even the pills stop working any more, they even fall into the trap of those medical pedlers and sign their life for a very expensive surgery, lose one of their body part and take further advice from them to keep swallowing pills for the rest of their life.

       We can also live without getting caught into the idea that we can escape punishment for our sins without facing our consequences. Just as prevention is better than cure, we should understand that a righteous life is an insurance for our peaceful future.

        God on the other hand is an absolute ideal who is beyond human comprehension. God is perfection personified. We  human beings cherish personifying God and relating to God with stories and engaging in thoughts of God as a person. There is no need for the intelligent ones to relate to God as a person. But the ordinary lot of people will relate to God only as a person. Although things seem to be operating on their own, it goes without saying that there is a great intelligence involved in creation of the great variety of living beings and the tiny cells carrying on its activities of multiplying, and maintaining its charecteristics of its dna and keeping the memory of so many things that are safe or unsafe for its existence and survival.

             We do not worship God for God's sake, but for oursake; because we believe that we get peaceful and free from stress. This bliss enables us to face life with confidence.

            We see so many people address their desires and concerns to God in their prayers. But we do not see people meditate and listening to what
God has to say in matters of our personal life. People who meditate regularly and practice listening to God will eventually start getting messages.

Arun Sharma

 

On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 9:19 PM, sanjiv anand <sanyji...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Anu

 

Thanks for your sincere input. I share your views myself. The professor-student arguments appear to be smart in the first sighting, but are completely misleading. The religious people though feel proud as they see the professor beaten in this concocted story. And I don't know the mentality of the person who claimed this student to be our ex-president while the original story has the student as Albert Einstein, and even that is wrong or at least unprovable. The sad thing is that many educated Hindus also proudly accept the account about the student being our ex-president. Take care.

Sanjiv Anand

Subject: Re: Have you seen God?

Hello Mr Sanjiv   I'm not an expert on this topic. The analysis of the Athiest Professor - Religious Student discussion that started this chain of e-mails, is present in the mail itself. It's s self-serving argument used by (slightly domatic) religious people to show one-upmanship on the athiests, while encouraging other religious people to take up God's cause (as He's not around, for some reason) and knock people off of platforms !   And, as to who is God? I have no idea. Never seen him, nor heard from him. Will let you know when I do .   Anu.     Hello peripa (and everyone else), Since you mentioned 'younger generation participation', I thought I'd add my two cents . Actually, I was trying to keep quiet, because when it comes to religion, people can be very touchy, and one gets to hear a lot of "the younger generation is so disrespectful!" or "learn to respect your elders." or "Dont argue with your betters" etc etc.   But, thought I'd brave all that anyway as this sounds like an interesting argument, and nobody has said "How dare you?", yet ! Just kidding!   Anyway, from my very simplistic analysis, here's my point of view-   What makes people do what they do? Well, because Man has a rational mind, which is what makes him 'superior' to other animals, does not guarantee he is always rational or logical. Man often commits irrational acts. The bigger the size of the mob, the more irrational the acts. End of story. I think the more acts of irrationality a man commits (In this case, rational acts being those acts that lead to his long-term happiness) the more unhappy he is likely to be. There are exceptions, of course,  but that is generally the norm...dont you think?   What makes 'things' happen, like natural calamities? The earth is a planet. Not a sterile, stable or stationary place. Far from the perfect place to live on. But, we make do what we have, right?   So, I think someone already mentioned this in the mail, but if religion preaches rational acts, it will lead to happiness all around. But, if you'll notice, most of the time, there is hardly anything one can call rational in religion. People like to couch everything in mumbo-jumbo, and lots of talk of ;higher purpose' and 'after life'...things you can never question, 'cause nobody knows what it is !   One can argue that there is a lot of good that comes out of religion. Of course there is ( along with a lot of other stuff). But, it begs the question, why not goodness for goodness' sake? Or, rationality taught as rationality?   Ok, maybe I said too much...it was s'posed to be two cents' worth....that's probably a whole dollar ! Dont mean to be flippant...just thought I'd share my take on things.   Anu.   No one is in charge of your happiness but you. Dear Arvind ji,                        Namaste! That was the shortest, direct and clear cut answers that we could ever expect. This ofcourse is with the assumption that we all understand the Sanskrit word Paramatman. Could you please express it in English language. Could we say the Super Spirit or Collective Spirit ?                       Addressing to your next question -   4. What is your nature?  General attempt to answer is to see the 3 main schools of philosophies of i. Dwaitha, ii.Adwitha and iii. Vishishtadwaitha. My understanding is that we are the same as the super spirit. But because we have not realized the Self, we do not act as one. The comedy is that when we do realize, we do not have any desire and we do not change any thing. Only then we see the meaning in the famous saying "If you want to be happy, Be!"                        This is not just a mail forward. Each one of you is invited to post your own observations, concerns, objections and questions. This forum is very useful also to educate the younger members of your family, friends and other contacts. It is their participation which is vital in this forum.   Arun Sharma  On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 8:07 PM, <ag...@aol.com> wrote: (What is God according to you?) Paramatman (What is the purpose of life?) Self realization (Does God play a role in helping you to get through the purpose of your life?) Yes I would like to add a question related to Q2: 4. What is your true nature? Arvind Sanjiv bhai,                   I am sorry that you and some others have got this understanding which is not really the teachings of the Vedanta. That is why I am comfortable seeing things as they are and not finding a problem in every one's view point. It is their view point.                     I do not see the purpose of looking at God as a person to grant wishes when we pray. Our mind is our visionary. If we think there is a God who will grant wishes, we happen to live in that hope. In reality, a prayer is to take us away from hope or fear; to the mid-point where there is neither hope nor fear - a state of bliss or absolute peace. When we become peaceful, we are able to face challenges as coolly as we get rich rewards. We are neither excited not devastated. We see events as events and go further in doing things with the understanding that things come and go, but we have to be helpful to others.                             God is the spirit which dwells in us; we may respect or not be bothered with it. The differece comes when we entertain hope and fear. God in our spirit is the guiding light. Gayatri mantra explains it as an entity which removes darkness or illusion from our mind and leads us to light or wisdom that our lasting identity is with the spirit. We become desparate when we see the world and our body as our identity. Our disease or Japan calamity is an event of magnitude which our mind pictures. When we are in the problem, our spirit guides us to be trouble free with our associating with not this body or this world, but with the spirit which is eternal.                             What makes these disasters happen? What makes it back to normal again. What urges us to work towards repairing it the way we want? What makes some people keep crying about what happened and become paralysed ? What keeps directing us to keep building cities and buildings and create congestion? What makes individuals continue to live unhygienically and keep killing effects of disease without removing the cause of disease and expect that they should not get chronic or degeneracy diseases? What makes some people to choose healthy ways of living and become independent in matters of personal health?                             Each one of us make our choice and blame or attribute God with the result. When people collectively commit acts which are not safe, they collectively face the consequences. India is marching towards that in many cities. There are wide patches of land which is unoccupied. There are areas where people crowd too much. I do not have to blame God for what consequence we would face.  Today we are intelligent enough to make proper choices to live a healthy active life. Still we are not clear why we keep on making wrong choices. Why blame God?                             Yes, we have to understand that there are such foolish choices made by people in the name of religion. We do not see any sense in many of their practices. We can and should voice our opposition. But we should respect their choice because it is their view point. Let the one without sin throw the first stone.                                            As you look at the story differently, you cannot see what I see. The reference is to the power of the brain and not the physical matter called brain. Students learn with the belief that the professor is intelligent enough to teach what he should. The faith for God is also a strength people derive from to charge themselves with and continue life even after falling down. It is something they grow up with and find it easy to go on that way. They do not pause to think that it is possible to see the spirit in yourself instead of seeking God out side you. People continue to argue and fully believe that drugs can cure disease and drugs save life.                               I did not write the story to be able to explain what the author meant. We both believe that it is a story. Looks good at its face value owing to the beautiful arguments therein.  I understand this argument as it is a concept of God which is not fully understood by many who start argueing against believers. We see the world and examine the physical matter, its movements, and study the activities of several happenings around us and collection of such findings in the past few centuries and claim that what we have seen so far is complete knowledge. This is what the world authorities did for centuries also. They even punished those scientists who proclaimed the world as different from what was so far declared. They found out later that there is more to their findings. Many eminent natural hygienists were punished severely even in this modern age for calling the drug industry and doctors as working hand and glove against the welfare of humanity. Even today we are being punished for speaking the truth and exposing the real culprits.                                    Reasoning can be done only if there is dignity and willingness to sincerely wanting to examine the opponent's view point. We cannot change others. We can definitely change ourselves. If I find any thing worthy of change, I will not be aftaid of accepting it. Show me!                                  Let us pose simple direct questions. Let us see what each one of us can post as an answer. It is an interesting exercise. Our different points of views can be seen and each one can work out a formula for one's own life from then onwards. What is God according to you? What is the purpose of life? Does God play a role in helping you to get through the purpose of your life? Other questions may be posed by others also. I have more questions later.  Please try to give direct answers not exceeding 4 sentences. Arun Sharma    - Arun Sharma M.I.I.N.T., N.D. Director (IMANAH) International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene Tel: (480)659-4645        (954)961-2596 visit: www.imanah.com

--
Arun Sharma M.I.I.N.T., N.D.
Director (IMANAH)
International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene
Tel: (480)659-4645
       (954)961-2596
visit: www.imanah.com

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 2:51 AM, Anu Vydehi <anuv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Come, come peripa, whats the sense in comparing religion to the justice system, or to people taking pills for health?

 

• *   As far as I am concerned 'religion' is a set of guidelines to live and let live. I mean live in a manner that others could also live. Justice system is exactly the same, as laws change in different lands in relation to the popular cultural practices of that land.
• All religions in the world can be divided into two parts.
• The first part is good conduct, which is common to all religion.
• The second part is the doctine - which is different from religion to religion depending upon the time and place from which the religion evolved. The doctrine includes the method of worship, the way you dress, the way you follow a set of rituals like wearing a Tilak, wearing a shirt and shoes in a church and removing the same in a temple are different issues where practices differ.
• Here is the most important part of it. Those who take the first part seriously and second part lightly are loved by one and all and there are always people who want to listen to them.
• The others who take the first part lightly or not at all, but take the second part seriously - create world wars and disputes all the time. 
• If you wish to make the best of religion, take the first part seriously and second part lightly.
• We have similar issues with legal system as well.  If a certain case is cooked up by a rich criminal creating paid witnesses, even an innocent person will be penalised or a criminal will be let off free and clear. That does not mean that we should totally abandon courts and the legal system. As far as possible try not to get into trouble.
• The whole world is now made to believe that life is impossible without pills. The medical system which has captivated the earth is based on a false pretext that drugs cure diseases.  But the field has surgeons who can surgically set back a broken bone and stich up the opening. There  are surgical needs in many cases where we may need to take their help.  What can we do abaout it? We have to live in this world. Just crying that medical system is a hoax does not take us anywhere. We cannot stop living but we can make our choices in living a healthy life style and not get into a situation where you have to depend on any mrdical sources for our personal health problems.
• There are exploiters in religion, but it does not mean we should totally abandon religion.  We should work around it and make our right choices.
• Best of it all we must express our objection to whatever and wherever wrong practices are observed. It is not wise to choose another religion because you find objectionable practices followed by some people. Raise your objection and choose right practices.  

There is nothing 'imaginary' about the justice system...we can see the judge and the jury with our eyes, and if you touch them, you know they are solid and human. (They can be taken to task if they're not doing their job, or deliberately misusing their power.)

 

*  You must be dreaming. Which world are you living in?  Can you imagine the thousands of cases all over the world where in front of our own eyes criminals get away scot free because the victim cannot produce either an evidence or a witness? You cannot punish any one. But I can say without a doubt that when we as humans commit a sin, it is not the court of law or a physician, but our own conscience will punish us either immediately or in due course. ( A sin is an act committed against our own conscience.  So also you can boycot or expose an exploiting religious pedler.

Its like this argument where its said "Can you see electricity? But we know it exists, because it makes the fan rotate (or the bulb glow or whatever). Therefore God exists, even though we cant see him, because he makes the earth rotate (or the milky way to exist or whatever)". I think this argument holds no water whatsoever because it boils down to- we cant see electricity, but we know it exists. We cant see God, therefore he exists. We cant see little monsters under the bed either...doesnt mean they necessarily exist. The proof of electricity providing motive power to the fan can be verified scientifically, any number of times.

 

• *  Anu, let us take a break here and review the concept of God. If there is an intelligence above human comprehension, it is humans who decided to call that super intelligence - God. 
• Some people visualized God in a form similar to humans, some with animal head and human body and some as just the spirit.
• You and I can live our entire life without believing the existence of God.  It is definitely not going to make a difference to any. 
• Visualize the living cells in our body. Each cell is a micro organism living as an idependent entity for a certain period of time drawing nourishment from our central system and multiplying, circulating in our body, circulating within itself. There is absolutely no need for each cell to visualize our entire body, personality, size, shape or mass.
• Each cell sends its demands and lives its best with what it gets and dies. 
• It is the combined effort of a group of cells who decide together to start a revolt against our principal wisdom and start a fever with an effort to render the whole body healthy. 
• What did the scientist or physician interpret the protest as? Although we can see so many things scientifically, scientists interpret each reaction to his commercial benefit and calls it as a disease not friendly to our body/life. 
• What did the mjority of people do? Accept it as they said, because they are lazy to bring in discipline in their life and would rather take a pill and kill the fever!!

 

 

As to people taking pills, thats another example of the irrationality of humans. If you've taken one pill, if it doesnt work, you might try two pills...once. After 10 pills, if it still does not work, should you not start looking at other alternatives? (ok, I have to draw a parallel here. If you tried prayer once, if it didnt work, should one try praying harder, or look at other alternatives like self-reliance, hard work and intelligence?) Of course, in the case of pills, it probably is too much work to get off your butt and exercise (I should know! Hahaha!), so its a problem of laziness as well I guess.

 

*  Now you are thinking in the right direction. Think more and you will get it!

The only common factor I see in religion, the justice system and the health industry, is that there are people who are rogues in all three. Of course there are! What else is new? But, where is the parallel?

 

• Finally you are getting it! 
• Just because there are individuals who try to twist a legal system, we do not stop trying those systems because we are bound by legal system.
• We are imagining that we are bound by medical system.  
• Most people do not want to think of looking for better agencies to lead our spiritual progress.
• Wait, why are you asking for parellels? Is it the degree of injustice?
• I am talking about the problems of individual choice of relying on agencies. If you are imagining any thing outside the region of priests, let us examine them.

Also, if you need common sense to make out whats sensible to follow in religion...why not follow common sense and do whats good for oneself?

 

*  Do you think we are not doing just that most of the time? Common sense is most uncommon. Do you want to blame the religion because of individuals who try to popularize their personal interpretations? Wisdom is not found even among the educated. What is the reliable source for  making major life decisions? 

 

Where's the need for religion? And, if you pick and choose in which part of religion you want to follow, are you still considered truly religious? I recently read this book called "The year of living biblically", which was very revealing on how bizzare religion can be.

*  There was a time when might was considered right and it is almost coming to that state because the legal system is sold out to the rich and the mighty. Religion even today is personal choice. There is no part of religion which is harmful. What is harmful is the interpretation of its teachings. In certain places even the original texts have been tampered. All the same, major part of religious practices are hygienic practices. Science on the other hand is seen as absolute truth while it is really one angle of every phenomenon only to be proved wrong after years.  Religion, or for that matter every system can be bizzare if you pick pieces of wrongs and try to build a structure or picture out of it.

Also, either God is omnipotent, or he is not. If he is, why the cruelty and injustice? Dont tell me its good for us...its not. It embitters the soul and breaks the spirit. There is no rubbish about 'poorve janma karma' that can make sense in any of these cases.

 

Events in this world and how it is viewed depends on how you view pieces to build a picture or structure from. In this very world, there are events which are looked as bad or good. Compare it with the total picture. There are bright colors and dark in a picture. The bright colors blend with dark colors to make a picture. It is not to belittle the grief of individuals in this world, but only to see the truth about the total picture.

Around a year ago in Chennai, there was a spate of incidents of child sexual molestations in the news, most of which ended in the children being killed. There was this incident where this guy came home in a drunken stupor, and raped his 3 year old daughter. His own daughter. People only got to know of it when there was blood everywhere the next morning around the girl. The worst part is, the girl didnt die...and they guy got away scot free. Can you guess who begged for his freedom? His wife! "Please, please let him go...how can I live without him? (even though he beats me every night, and spends ALL my hard-earned money)...think of my children etc."

 

* Sure, blame the religion for the woman's stupid choice. Was there any one in her community who could talk sense into her? Did the religion teach raping your 3 year old?  Did the religion teach the mother to leave her child a prey to the animal behavior of her husband? Do you think that the man or the woman will go unpunished for their action? Do you think that the legal system should give the choice of a child's welfare to the stupid choices of idiot parents?

There was this other incident where the auto driver kidnapped a 4-year-old girl and her 5-year-old brother for ransom. He ended up raping the girl and killing her. He killed the brother for good measure...he might have seen the incident. Thet eventually caught up with the guy in Coimbatore, and he's now behind bars. So? Can he give back the kids to the parents? You think the parents deserved this to happen to them (if one starts with the hypothesis that God is omnipotent, one is forced to say that they deserved it...and then make up various reasons to justify why they deserved it)? Did the children deserve to die in such a fashion?

 

* Line up incidents of human mismanagements and blame God for individual choices is the common efforts of people who wish to bring connection to cause and effect. Who or what was the cause of an incident?  how these reactions are looked at ? Hold your horses. You want freedom of choice and at the same time blame God for the reaction?

When I was newly married and moved to Chennai, there was a furore in the 'basti' next to our apartment...a father had raped his one-year-old daughter. His own daughter. Who is only a year old. None of the maids came to work that day...everyone was whispering up and down the apartment...and I remember I felt sick to my stomach for a week. In fact, just writing about all this is making me want to throw up. You cant say that there is some 'divine intervention' in all this, can you?

* Why is it that people around did not beat up the father to pulp and teach people around about consequence of committing heinus crimes? Where did the responsibility of people vanish? Waiting for God to come and intervene? God sent you to raise your voice. Did you? Even Bheeshma kept mum when Kauravas were insulting Draupadi. He suffered so badly in the end where Krishna explains why Bheeshma suffered because he committed a sin of not expressing his objection to Duryodhana's action.

Anyway, if I'm sounding irreverant or downright rude, I apologise...that is not my intention. Also, I think this is one subject where people will not change their stand, because all proof is circumstatial . Either you are a believer, or you're not. If you're a believer, you 'believe' even in the absence of proof, and no argument can sway a believer, because he isnt looking for proof. If you're a non-believer, there is no proof!

 

 

 

So, if religion works for someone, good for them. If it doesnt, it doesnt!   Regards,

Anu.   No one is in charge of your happiness but you.

--- On Fri, 4/1/11, International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@imanah.com> wrote:

From: International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@imanah.com> Subject: Re: Have you seen God?

To: "sanjiv anand" <sanjiv...@yahoo.com>, philosophy-rel...@googlegroups.com Cc: "Anu Vydehi" <anuv...@yahoo.com>, ag...@aol.com, "Saraswathi Sundaram" <saras...@gmail.com>, "UMA RAMAN" <umara...@yahoo.com>, "Umar AlFarooq" <UmarAl...@gmail.com>, "Karthikeyan swaminath" <skarthik...@yahoo.com>, "Nanu" <karthik...@gmail.com>, "karthik narayan" <karthik...@gmail.com>, "karuppiah thenappan" <karup...@gmail.com>, "Jayashree Ganesan" <jayash...@gmail.com>, "Vidya Ganesan" <vidyag...@gmail.com>, "prakash joshi" <praka...@hotmail.com>, "Hurreeprasaad Joshi" <sriramkri...@gmail.com>, "Dinesh Nalukurti" <dinesh...@gmail.com> Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 12:02 AM

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 8:27 AM, sanjiv anand <sanjiv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Arun bhaisaheb,

 

Anu makes sense, and I share her viewpoint mostly.

 

The way I see people perceiving God is only entertainment, social gatherings, mob mentality to feel superior to people of other persuations, etc. Accept God or not, pray to God or not will not make any difference to the imaginary concepts of Moksh, rebirth, etc.

 

On the medical side, we should certainly follow a lifestyle where we reduce the chances of getting hurt or sick, but if we do get hurt or fall sick, sometime we can't avoid seeking medical system's help. Take care.

Sanjiv Anand

---

Sanjiv bhai,

 

• It is surely individual choice to accept or reject God in  one's life. 

• At the same time, that individual must pause to think of an alternate plan to lean on at the time of peril, or problem. 

• Such individuals should develop sufficient self confidence to become calm and be able to face challenges in life. 

• Most of the time it is an individual's lack of confidence or doubt on one's ability to face challenges, that makes the individual to fail or stumble.   

• We refer to the self as the  Atman the unchanging eternal light within. 

• It is not this Atman which is reborn, it is our consciousness which is a bundle of concepts which we carry with us and make judgement about events and our relationship to this life. 

• When our confusion is cleared and we realize the truth about ourselves, we are free from the cycle of  birth and rebirth. 

• Adwaitha vedanta declares that this Atman is the same as Paramatman or supreme consciousness. 

• Dwaitha siddhantha says that  we are separate Atman and we have an opportunity to become eternal servants of the Paramatman when we devote ourselves to the lord with total surrender. 

• There is a third school called Vishishta Adwaitha which is a compromise between the two schools which says that we will be Atman until we realize the truth about ourselves and then the Atman will merge with Paramatman or super consciousness. 

• In all three schools, it is not God but we who see the events as problems. As it is a natural phenomenon for life to end and start anew. So many millions of people are dying all the time and more people are born. We do not seem to be concerned about every one all the time and we make merry in our life. When some one who is your near and dear  is killed or hurt, we raise these questions about injustice. 

•  I could say it without hesitation  that most of us do not want to take any trouble about coming out of our shell and fight for either a friend's cause or for a just cause in the community or nation. But we will keep talking about any one who is trying to do some thing good. I am not expressing my disturbance, but  I am observing the joke that  we find it easy to point our finger at the other but find it extremely difficult to include any discipline in  our own life (including myself).

 

• Just imagine the number of animals and sea life that as humans we kill daily and go unharmed for generations without being punished! We think that those animals did not have any grievance and that we should blame God when Tsunami kills in Japan and earth quake takes lives in South America or other places in the world.  We cannot see how the law of karma works, We have choice to our action, let us choose actions that are not likely  to hurt others, and accept  what comes to us, 

• This question asking 'why God allowed evil things to happen in this world should be directed inwards. Did I use the freedom of choice properly. Never take things lying down. Do your part to express your objection to anything that  is going wrong. Every sinner has to pay consequences for his or her action.We need not know how. If you have time to check, have close contact to each person's life and make notes.

Arun Sharma 

•  

 

 

  

 

 

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Sanjiv bhai,

                   Before you draw bubbles or visualize atman, paramatman or God, you have to select which school you are examining from the tree schools. As far as Dwaitha is concerned, you do not have to draw bubbles, but your own image and the image of God that you wish to devote yourself to. In vishishta adwaitha  they are 2 pictures. One while you live and keep taking birth again and again the same as Dwaitha. The second picture is when you have realized the truth about  yourself you see small flame and a bigger flame. Nowhere you need to imagine a bubble.

Now let us talk about Adwaitha. It talks about the air in a tyre, or some times in a balloon, or an air pillow. There is a shape as long as it is captivated in a tube or a balloon. As soon as it is released from the balloon, it does not hold a shape, but merges with the atmosphere. That is like the atman and paramatman being the same. It is our consciousness which enters another body to try one more time to realize truth. When we have seen the truth, we do not play this game anymore.

While the earth, and all planets are real, our role in this life is our illusion. Our body keeps changing, and it is therefore not real. Our mind keeps changing even faster. So we are not this mind. There is one thing which is not changing and observing our changes in our body and mind. That observer is the atman. The yoga of life is to keep observing the actions of the body and the way our mind keeps thinking without making a judgement. We form impressions in our mind and make judgement in our brain which are both based on the information we have got. Each of us have a different information and  we process it in our own way. When we are able to see the the puppet player holding the strings and moving the  puppets, we do not have the same emotions as a child which gets engrossed into the play imagining it to be real. 

When we observe our mind and body without making a judgement, surprising things happen. this surprising things may happen at different people at different time depending upon how free of judgement you observed. This does not mean that we have become realized. The surprising thing that happens is that we become capable of directing our thoughts and action to more detachment from rewards or consequences.    

The essence of this discussion is that each of us have to spend time meditating within us and seeking the reality (if you are so keen to know).  Your approach of drawing bubbles to begin with is good in its own way, but keep your inquiry open and seek within yourself. The realized souls have no interest in this world anymore. It does not mean that who ever have lost interest in doing anything are realized souls. We see so many of us have no interest in doing anything, but will keep looking for some good fortune to come and knock at their door and drop great rewards,

I am only stating my understanding of what the Gurus, and the scriptures taught us. If any one in this forum knows better, we would surely like to hear. 

Obviously I am not a realized soul and  am not even keen  to know the reality since, I still like this game of life and sense of achievement, accomplishment. 'Ego' as they all teach is the biggest hurdle to overcome in this game.

All the same, opposing views are always useful in reviewing our own thoughts, so please feel free to interact and fill in.

Arun Sharma

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:12 AM, sanjiv anand <sanjiv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Arun bhaisaheb,

 

I have never understood what one means by God. If I make a physical model of Atman and Parmataman based upon your description, it would be a very big bubble (Parmatman) and then trillions of smaller irregular shaped bubbles (atmans). Some of these bubbles would try to get in perfect shape, travel toward the big bubble and merge into that. Then the big bubble would get even bigger. Then there are some bubbles farther away representing the atmans of animals or lesser life forms. Some of them will behave and join the pool that has this big bubble. Over the next few billion years, all of these will merge into the big one. If this is more or less the picture in your mind, please tell me how and when all these bubbles (atmans) get separated from big bubble (Parmatman) in the first place? How does this model help in improving our life?

 

Sanjiv Anand
(561) 498-4854

---

From: International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@IMANAH.com>
To: sanjiv anand <sanjiv...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 1:43:59 AM

Subject: Re: Have you seen God?

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Anu,

1. People handle different situations in their own way. what would you do or advise others to handle them?
   
2. When you see a poor man or a beggar, do you think you should give him alms and keep walking your way?
   
3. When some one has wronged you once and keeps bothering you with more and more disturbing acts, what would you do? What if he is physically stronger than you?
   
4. What are you supposed to do if some one is insulting your family elder or a woman?
   
5. What would you do if a friend is being wrongly punished for a crime he did not commit?
6. How much can  we get involved in others' life, social crimes and Government officers taking bribes?
   
7. Would you honestly refuse to pay a bribe if you are not getting your job done  in a government department? Would you report the problem to a higher authority?
8. Would you teach your children not to worship God?
9. Would you let them learn Hindu philosophy and religion?
10. Would you encourage them to do some cultural practices like doing obeisance to elders and God's idols or celebrateHindu festivals?

Well do not take it seriously, I just listed some questions for you to ponder. takeyour time.
Arun Sharma

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 6:45 PM, International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@imanah.com> wrote:

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Anu Vydehi <anuv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hmmm...what happens if I dont try visualising anything? What if I am happy the way I am? Happy within myself and without? Happy with my accomplishments, but always looking at how to achieve more (more happiness)...content with my good fortune, and always looking at helping those around me when I can, because there is so much more happiness if everyone around you is happy too, right?   What if I really am happy with all life has to offer, along with all its trappings, and not feel any guilt whatsoever for savouring every moment? What if I do enjoy using all my senses to percieve, analyse and enjoy everything around me...the smell of the fresh mud after the rain, the sight of my children holding hands when getting off the school bus...music from the eighties on my ipod...a well prepared meal...the feel of silk? The joy of seeing a dog run through the grass...the sorrow of seeing other indians living in conditions no living being should live in(and I do try to do something about it. Drop in the ocean, but I do try. Ask me about it sometime)...a sense of awe at what nature can do to life on earth (without trying to imagine, envision or conjure up rationalisation for the event), and grief for people who've lost their loved ones.   Does it matter one iota if I believe in the afterlife (or what will happen to my afterlife if it exists) or in any arbitrary rules someone else has set, so long as I am a happy, content and responsible individual? (The happier for living in the here and now, and not constantly worried about things nobody knows anything about) Does it make me behave any differently than I ought?

No one is in charge of your happiness but you.

Anu dear,

                      That would be wonderful if you can do it all for as long as you live.  Although there are a few contradictions in your statements, I understand the general idea. When  some one is struck with some situation where one feels helpless and even the close relatives and friends do not understand, if you can  calm yourself with the thought that there are people who  are in worse condition than you are and instead of brooding over your fate, summon up your courage and go out there and help others, you have already achieved your end. That self esteem, confidence and understanding that you should not ever break down, is  called Atma Vishvas or believing in your 'Self'.
                  There is a beautiful  poem of the story of Abu Ben Adhem which I read in m7th grade. This man who always helped his fellow men, never spent time praying to God. An angel appeared in his dream one night who was writing in a book. On inquiring the angel told him that she was writing the name of people who loved God. Abu requested that she include his name also in it. the next night the angel again appeared with a different kind of book with her writing. On asking about it, the angel said that it was a book of people whom God loved. Lo and behold, Abu's name already appeared on the top of the  list.
Arun Sharma 

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 12:03 AM, Anu Vydehi <anuv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hmmm...what happens if I dont try visualising anything? What if I am happy the way I am? Happy within myself and without? Happy with my accomplishments, but always looking at how to achieve more (more happiness)...content with my good fortune, and always looking at helping those around me when I can, because there is so much more happiness if everyone around you is happy too, right?   What if I really am happy with all life has to offer, along with all its trappings, and not feel any guilt whatsoever for savouring every moment? What if I do enjoy using all my senses to percieve, analyse and enjoy everything around me...the smell of the fresh mud after the rain, the sight of my children holding hands when getting off the school bus...music from the eighties on my ipod...a well prepared meal...the feel of silk? The joy of seeing a dog run through the grass...the sorrow of seeing other indians living in conditions no living being should live in(and I do try to do something about it. Drop in the ocean, but I do try. Ask me about it sometime)...a sense of awe at what nature can do to life on earth (without trying to imagine, envision or conjure up rationalisation for the event), and grief for people who've lost their loved ones.   Does it matter one iota if I believe in the afterlife (or what will happen to my afterlife if it exists) or in any arbitrary rules someone else has set, so long as I am a happy, content and responsible individual? (The happier for living in the here and now, and not constantly worried about things nobody knows anything about) Does it make me behave any differently than I ought?   No one is in charge of your happiness but you. Anu dear,

                      That would be wonderful if you can do it all for as long as you live.  Although there are a few contradictions in your statements, I understand the general idea. When  some one is struck with some situation where one feels helpless and even the close relatives and friends do not understand, if you can  calm yourself with the thought that there are people who  are in worse condition than you are and instead of brooding over your fate, summon up your courage and go out there and help others, you have already achieved your end. That self esteem, confidence and understanding that you should not ever break down, is  called Atma Vishvas or believing in your 'Self'.
                  There is a beautiful  poem of the story of Abu Ben Adhem which I read in m7th grade. This man who always helped his fellow men, never spent time praying to God. An angel appeared in his dream one night who was writing in a book. On inquiring the angel told him that she was writing the name of people who loved God. Abu requested that she include his name also in it. the next night the angel again appeared with a different kind of book with her writing. On asking about it, the angel said that it was a book of people whom God loved. Lo and behold, Abu's name already appeared on the top of the  list.
Arun Sharma 

                       

--- On Wed, 4/6/11, International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@IMANAH.com> wrote:

From: International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@IMANAH.com> Subject: Re: Have you seen God?

To: "sanjiv anand" <sanjiv...@yahoo.com> Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 7:26 PM

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Anu,

       When some one was narrating a story to demonstrate a situation, there are some people who ask 'then, what happened to the cake?' . If you get the idea why some one made a cake with a message on it to give to his friend, it is the message that we enjoy. Some people are interested in the cake more than the message. I am kidding... The message was to me that in the effort of enlightening people I do not get into trouble myself! - I think that is the idea. Let us ask my cousin Venkat who said what he did.

Arun Sharma

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Anu Vydehi <anuv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sorry...I'm a little fuzzy on this...nice question, but how does religion come into this? Is the example to say that Mr.Cooper was a good christian (I'm assuming he's christian from his name), and therefore helped a fellow human? Otherwise he would'nt have? Anu

No one is in charge of your happiness but you.

Dear Arun: These problems bothered me also in my younger days. One of my dear friends, Mr. Cooper, was in the Central Railways and was obliged to take the top boss on the tracks for inspections. Boss is unaware of the dangers there. A train came in top speed and the boss went to the other track without noticing another train fast appraoching on that track. What Mr. Cooper did was beyond his resons. He risked his life and jumped to push the boss away from trains and was himself seriously injured. Perhaps most of our actions are the result of what we think all the time, and the result of our actions in the past, known or otherwise. Hopefull this makes some sense. Venkat

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Note: If any one of you do not want to recieve these mails, please indicate and I will take you out of this list.

Sanjiv bhai,

                    You are right. We are drifting from the original question or topic. If we have not thrown enough light on the subject yet, I appeal to other members of this forum who are receiving these mails to help out.

                    I like to repeat in a nutshell answers for all questions you have posed and let you ask me direct questions if my answers are misleading.

1. Venkat's story as I understood was addressed to me that I am myself getting into trouble for trying to help others to clear their doubts. I ask Venkat to clarify if he meant some thing else.
2. My metaphor of cake was to demonstrate that some people ask questions away from the purpose of the story. A person narrated how he made a special cake for his friend and wrote a message 'Sweet memories on a sweet birthday' to tell how much he loved his friend when the friend found out that there was no sugar in the cake.  The sweetness was only in the message and not the cake.  The listener asked what happened to the cake, did they eat it?
3. I agreed with you that the story did not bring the values of belief in God or religion. I also said that it is not necessary for us to argue with atheists because they do not have any of their philosophy except to criticise the theistic philosophy, and practices.
4. I then went on to explain to our other members my understanding of what or who is God, what is religion, our soul, rebirth and philosophy of the three schools of Hindus as directed by the famous three teachers. I feel that it is important for us to be clear about the core questions so that we can make our own decision to lead ours and our children's life.
5. My understanding is that it is entirely upto us if we want God in our life or not. I agree with Anu that we do not need God at all in our entire life if we are able to keep our cool even in difficult time or happy times without either breaking down or going crazy with our good fortune.
6. I for myself feel and understand that for my life, it has become a part of my life practice and thought process to deal everything I do associating God as a companion. I do miss to see the consequences of my action when I choose to eat a little too much nuts or watch too much movies online.  But periodically I get reminded when I review my actions. I do make resolutions and do not keep all of them. That is also the reason or my weakness to lean of God and seek solace.
7. I cannot speak for others, but I feel that it is a path already well thought out and ready costume for us to wear and merge in that bliss which I believc prepares us better to meet challenges in life. It can definitely show us how to humble ourselves despite our achievements and success; only in comparison to our other times (not other people).

Have I covered all your questions?

Arun Sharma

On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, sanjiv anand <sanjiv...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Arun bhaisaheb,

 

Anu has rightly questioned if Mr. Venkat's story's message is to be a good religious practitioner to be a good person. Unfortunately, I could not relate Mr. Venkat's story to this discussion, and I could not understand your metaphor of 'cake' and 'the message on cake'. Once again we've lost the original discussion, which was the story of an athiest professor and young student APJ Kalam. My comment was that it is a fake story to outwit the ideas of athist professor by simply religious ideas. Even if you forget who the student (APJ Kalam or Einstein) was, the story did not impress me into believing in God whatever the student's definition was.

 

From your arguments so far, I can only understand that you need God in some lean times like loss of a loved one, etc. and not in normal circumstances. You may educate me if I have misunderstood you.

Sanjiv Anand

---

From: International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene <in...@IMANAH.com>
To: Anu Vydehi <anuv...@yahoo.com>
Cc: venk...@aol.com; sanjiv...@yahoo.com
Sent: Sun, April 10, 2011 2:11:52 PM

Subject: Re: Have you seen God?

[International Institute of Mahayoga & Natural Hygiene]

Venkat,
Could you please explain the purpose of the story of Cooper?
Arun Sharma

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Anu,

       Yes, there are references in Bhagavad Gita Ramayana and Upanishads besides other texts like Vidura Neeti, and so many other texts about principles which give you the guidelines to decide what to do in any situation.

        I shall here give one such example :

"Sarvasya dwai phale prayaha; viruddhe cha parasparam

Adou chalam phalam sthira tharam bhaveth"

Every action has two reactions which are opposite to each other; namely the immediate and the ultimate reactions. Even if it gives immediate pleasure and ultimate misery avoid that action. Even if it gives pain in the beginning, but will bring a lasting ultimate effect, take to such action. In the Gita the immediate effect is called the 'Preyas' and the ultimate reaction as 'Shreyas'.

Rama had to kill Vali from behind. This was wrong according to a warrior's laws. But humanity will benefit from killing an attrocious king who broke the rule of modesty and was taking law into his hands, was better killed than left to continue his sinful acts. For the good of the humanity, Rama had to decide to kill him and accept the consequence for breaking the law of a warrior.

When each one of us decide to follow these principles of doing good, there will be no chance for people to take bribe. Even if we suffer initially by not getting our job done, we will be contributing to the disturbance we can create to the sinners (both the giver and the taker of bribe). We should with equal enthusiasm expose those who give bribe also to the community.

We hear the Vedic quotations,

Mother is God, father is God, teacher is God, and the guest is God, we generally think that others have to consider these people as God. But every teaching has inner message.

Mother ! be like God. Father! be like God, and so on.... 

If the mother, lives an ideal life without telling lies, without cheating on her husband and without being jealous, angry and cruel, she will be automatically respected as God, Such good qualities should be inculcated by the father, teacher, and the guest alike. All of us know that there is no locks for the  thief and there are no rules for the monster. But the rules from our religion will come into play when the person will start thinking about his own sins. Sooner or later it catches up with the wicked. But the absence of these rules, will let them think might is right and keep taking liberties in every act of their life.

      Common sense is most uncommon now a days. We cannot hold any one to justice if there are no rules. Some people think that they can get away from murder, but we do not know how each one of them is punished and we may not at all relate to the number of crimes that person has committed against his own conscience.

       Next very important matter is the knowledge of the power of our mind. We enjoy or suffer anything in the plane of our mind. It is the desires and concerns in our minds which eventually manifests into events that take us to our feared consequence or the desired rewards. It is the role of our religious rules which get recorded in our subconscious mind and keeps bothering us with hopes or fear according to the evaluation that our minds makes- about the acts of our life.  It is the mind which can change illusions into reality or vise versa according to our own level of understanding.

        You do not have to agree with me. You can live the rest of your life without believing in either religion or God. But irrespective of your belief you will face the consequence or reap the rewards to your acts in this life. That is my belief.

        To sum up, it is all up to you.  There are so many example stories, and the entire guidelines to make your life successful. Take it or struggle to find out for yourself.

Arun Sharma