Secret Photographer Challenge (SPC): Comments (1/2)

[BWS's ghost]

Secret Photographer Challenge (SPC): Comments


To all month moderators of the games and of devoted statistics' accounts: please add the word "Panoramio" before any account devoted to contests or statistics


All Panoramio photographers are invited to this challenge where favoritism and requests for votes will not be deciding factors. Photographers are not revealed until after the voting ends.

Please read the entry guidelines in the current challenge since
each SPC moderator will decide:
- time periods: for entering, voting and revealing photographers
- entry method: Panoramio album, Picasa album, emailed photos ...
- maximum number of entries allowed per participant
- maximum number of entries allowed overall
- what is, and is not, allowed in a photo
- voting method
- minimum and maximum votes allowed (and any other restrictions)
- results format (top 10 or top 20 or a full list)
- whether comments can be left under photos
- whether the photos remain, are deleted, or are deleted on request of the photographers
- whatever else the moderator decides to try, as long as the basic concept of secrecy remains

Please keep the entrant's identities secret by not saying whether or not you have entered the current SPC until after the voting ends.

(game by BWS)

[spc1-minimalism]

Hello Brian! Congratulations.

I think this SECRET Photo Challenge it's a great idea especially for the newbies (as me) who they are not known yet. This way we are sure that the votes are really for the photos and not for the photographs.

Also, I think that the subject is too hard and abstract considering that is the FIRST SPC. Maybe a subject more "popular" must be better.

Regards.

[BWS's ghost]

thanks! i chose 'minimalism' to allow anyone to enter a new photo, even if they could not leave their house in the cold of winter it's just a test run at this point, so it's better to have fewer entries anyway.

[spc1-minimalism]

Hi Brian

I've entered a pic to help with the trial.

I note all but one entry so far is without Exif.
I had trouble in PaintShopPro8, later found it easy in MS Photo Edit.

But inbetween, I managed to find a tool for removing Exif, rather than a reader/editor, and it was easy to use.

Found at:-
http://www.download3k.com/Photo-Graphic/Converters-Optimizers/Download-Exif-Tag-Remover.html

the actual download, (to suggest to entrants?) was at:-
http://www.download3k.com/Install-Exif-Tag-Remover.html

[BWS's ghost]

thanks for the tip, and your entry all but the 1 mentioned are perfect entries, so far... thanks everyone for following the instructions!

not sure all entries match the subject of 'minimalism' exactly (means different things to everyone) but all are ok, this time

i've also downloaded an EXIF program. however, for most people, who are doing this only once-in-a-while, simply copying and pasting into a same-sized blank canvas is probably the easiest way.

it seems that EXIF programs are especially useful for changing many photos at once, such as to set a comment field or fix date/time stamps that are incorrect by the same number of hours (forgotten time zone changes, or a bad setting...)

[spc1-minimalism]

A very very simple way to remove the EXIF informations.

- Open your .JPG with MSPaint.
- Save it as a .BMP
- Close MSPaint.
- Reload you .BMP with any program and save it as a .JPEG with another name or overwrite the original.

That's all.

[spc1-minimalism]

I entered a pic but I think I changed my mind Is it possible to change it : : :

[spc1-minimalism]

Quote 2009spc1-minimalism:

I entered a pic but I think I changed my mind Is it possible to change it : : :

Of course! Simply delete the shot you entered and upload a new one.

[Bruce da Moose]

Until the thread is locked, you can even *edit* the original one and replace it. Simple.

[BWS's ghost]

yes, you may change your photo by deleting and uploading a new one, or an edited version, through the end of the month! then, the account will be locked and all photos will be copied as thumbnails to a new forum area for voting. detailed voting instructions will be posted at that time.

please remember: if you've entered, or plan to, you should only add comments here while signed into the entry account, or the voting account when we get to that point.

please scroll to the top of this forum for entry instructions.

[Bruce da Moose]

Thanks, Brian - I am not entering this time - I have nothing that remotely resembles "minimalism"

[spc1-minimalism]

Quote 2009spc1-minimalism:

Quote 2009spc1-minimalism:

I entered a pic but I think I changed my mind Is it possible to change it : : :

Of course! Simply delete the shot you entered and upload a new one.

OK I changed it

[BWS's ghost]

to: the person who entered a vote on 01 Mar 2009 04:56 am using the entrant's voting account:

if you are an entrant, please edit that post to tell us your entry number:
entrant #'s vote: ...

if you are not an entrant, please delete that post and then enter your vote using your own account.

thanks, brian

[spc1vote]

An idea that might help prevent the issue of omitted entrant number, if that is the situation above. Non-entrants use the format:-

entrant 0's vote: 1, 6, 12

[BWS's ghost]

regarding last post: that's fine, but they must enter their vote while signed into their own account, otherwise anyone who wishes to could vote many times using the entrants' voting account, and do so anonymously.

so, to keep the entrant's identities secret, and to keep us all honest:
- any votes by the 2009spc1vote account that don't have a unique entrant number won't be counted
- any votes by any other accounts which are later revealed as entrants who also voted using the 2009spc1vote account won't be counted

[BWS's ghost]

thanks a lot, peter, for prompting that entrant to put their number in their vote, and also for updating your russian translation of the NPC rules

[Bruce da Moose]

So, how do we get more people to vote for this contest without looking like spammers?? I will certainly enter next time if I have the right subject...

[BWS's ghost]

no spam ads, please! i'd rather that spc grows naturally, instead of by artificial growth hormones. we don't want this to become another nearly unmanageable thing like npc - at least not right away

maybe if the next one doesn't get many more entries, then some translations and a few 'spot' ads in the other language forums may be ok, if the mods there allow it.

anyway, are you really sure you want to enter another contest-like thing, bruce?

[Peter Uspensky]

Quote brian schaller:

thanks a lot, peter, for prompting that entrant to put their number in their vote, and also for updating your russian translation of the NPC rules

Hi Brian,
i've leaved a comment with a question in NPC thread on page #59.

[BWS's ghost]

SPC voting period closes in just a few hours. several entrants have not yet voted, so please enter your vote soon!

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote brian schaller:

no spam ads, please! i'd rather that spc grows naturally, instead of by artificial growth hormones. we don't want this to become another nearly unmanageable thing like npc - at least not right away

maybe if the next one doesn't get many more entries, then some translations and a few 'spot' ads in the other language forums may be ok, if the mods there allow it.

anyway, are you really sure you want to enter another contest-like thing, bruce?

Just so long as I don't win, I'm good

[seingraham]

2, 4, 10

[Bruce da Moose]

Quote seingraham:

2, 4, 10

seingraham, Gotta put those here

http://www.panoramio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16256&start=0

[BWS's ghost]

sorry, seingraham, unless you are an entrant this month, your vote is ineligible this time as you joined panoramio less than 30 days before voting started (must be before february 1st).

thanks anyway for pointing out the incorrect placement, bruce

[RobStamp]

Hi Brian. With the SPC in its infancy I think it best that you again moderate. Also, I see myself asking a great many questions, actually giving you more work than if you did it yourself. Or I'm wimping out. Anyway, my chosen subject for next challenge, "Ships and Boats". Cheers, Rob

[BWS's ghost]

ok, rob, i'll start a new forum thread on the 15th with "Ships and Boats" as the subject for SPC 2!

not that it's necessary (or recommended knowing bruce's experience in NPC!), but do you have any restrictions or is almost anything nautical allowed? rafts to aircraft carriers, shipwrecks, plastic toy boats, model boats, anchors, crossed oars on walls, a boathouse, a shipyard...?

a couple new general restrictions i think must be added:
- no recognizable people in any photos
- words and letters (especially advertising!) should not appear

all photos will soon be deleted from the SPC album. only the thumbnails will remain in the forum. of course, all entrants may upload their entries to their own albums now! i will add a link to your album from the forum thumbnail if you ask. thanks everyone!

[RobStamp]

Hi Brian, Listing the allowed and the excluded, with translation issues leads to confusion, and yes I did have in mind Bruce's experience. So if it isn't a boat or a ship it's off topic. Yacht, submarine, hovercraft?
Ok, I will extend it to, "Boats and Ships - To include any form of water borne craft"

Please change the thumbnail reference for my photo to 19923225
May I suggest that part of revealing ones identity after voting, is to also provide in the same post, the id for the photo in ones own gallery, either existing in back pages, or the fresh upload of the higher res original.

Cheers, Rob

[Marcus Brutus]

Hi Rob,


After Bruce's experiences we know that drawings of doors (or boats) are not allowed, but what about sculptures of doors (or boats)? Would my boat be acceptable?



as you can see it is floating in beautifully wavy water... look-alike substance

Just joking!

Great topic.

Marcus Brutus

[RobStamp]

Hi Marcus, Thanks for the obvious joke, hardly a secret entry after that! Also from Bruce's experience, I think allowing such an entry to stand, and to leave it to the voters, is the simple solution. I've enjoyed seeing quite a few gates in the NPC, not to vote for, but it would have been our loss if they had been excluded. Cheers, Rob

[Marcus Brutus]

wise decision

[RobStamp]

Hi Brian

It could be that some entrants have remained anonymous due to their low votes, it could be that #14 missed or misunderstood an instruction, or has an internet connection problem, or is away.
And, yes, clearly there is a possibility of abuse.

I suggest entrants send an email to a google account, to register their entry. The moderator, or assistant, with password to the account, would not be allowed to vote, though can still enter a photo.

Cheers, Rob

[BWS's ghost]

of course, some people will remain anonymous if they get few votes. however, as it is possible to enter many photos and then vote many times in secret using the special voting account, we must unfortunately lose the votes of those who stayed hidden. to avoid any further problems, there will be no special voting account in future SPC's.

to keep it very simple, there are no emails, though that was the entire workings behind the original SPC (APC). it was generally agreed that the mod's job would become too tough for anyone to want, and the rules too complex. so far, it's been easy, but there were very few entrants in SPC 1, and they mostly followed the guidelines!

[BWS's ghost]

so far, half the people have not followed the guideline to reduce the size of their photo to about 1 megapixel (1200x900).

that guideline is there for these reasons:
- to protect your copyright, by preventing high resolution files with no attached (copyright)name being illegally downloaded
- to prove your ownership in case of dispute, by uploading a higher resolution version of the same photo to your personal album after the voting

it is not required that anyone delete, re-size and then re-enter their photo, but it is highly recommended!

also, 1 photo has its EXIF still attached. that guideline is intended to prevent possibly associating a photo (by camera make/model) to a photographer, and is also only a recommendation, not a requirement of entry.

[Marcello Mento]

I don't go to entry in SPC. The password is wrong. Ciao

[PanoBuster]

So much about this contest...

Busted!
I can see that one of the users not only that didn't comply to the rules but also is deleting the traces of the "crime". How comes?

See for yourself...

Uploaded the 2008-12-07 18:52:14 (and deleted by the user)


versus

#38 in the contest



Uploaded the 2008-08-27 12:36:50 (and deleted by the user)


versus

#2 in the contest


Whatta shame! There were good photos. I have to admit a bit of envy for these nice shots.

[grcav]

Hi

I think that the rule is that any photo goes (uploaded or not) as long as the other participants don't know of the photo (this is the low view count/back pages clause).

Apparently at least one other participant did know of those photos, so in the interest of anonymity they better be removed from the competition.

Brian, can you remove the entries 2 and 38 from the spc2ship account?

Thanks

Gil

PS. maybe people who voted for those entries will want to edit their votes to include pics which are still in the game.

PPS. I don't know about deleting traces of crime. Sure I'm not deleting pics from my albums because of any game ;)

[Daniela Brocca]

Panobuster, if we see the photos they are not deleted... And the rules say that you can submit photos from the older pages. What did you do to find them? It seems bad faith to me. You wanted to find " a crime" !!! Shame to you!

Daniela

[BWS's ghost]

"optional: may be in your album's back pages with a low view count and few comments"

"back pages" - to me, this means the final few pages of an album, or at least something that was uploaded many months to a year or more ago. if an album only has about 10 pages or so, there are no "back pages" yet
the entries in question are on pages 2 and 4 of 28 pages, so are not back pages (at least in what i thought was the generally-accepted english language usage anyway, maybe not the panoramio-ish usage).

sorry, gil, i really appreciate all your input while creating this challenge and your really great entries, but i'll have to remove those 2 shots, which i see that you already understand is only fair to all the others.

please remember everyone, part of this challenge is to keep your identity a secret by submitting photos that no people (or very few) have ever seen here, or are likely to see without a lot of investigation.

if you decide, as gil did, to upload existing pano shots, you have to accept the risk of someone exposing you, and having your shot(s) removed. it's just another part of a strange and interesting game we all have to accept when playing it.

however, people should not be investigating and anonymously reporting other entrant's identities just to improve their own chances. that would be against the spirit and intent of this contest as well. i hope that was not the case here.

(btw, if you entered an existing pano photo, you should also remove tags, such as "ship" and "boat" this month, till after the voting. of course, don't tag any entries with "contest" or "SPC"!)

here are a few more specific definitions for future SPC's:
"low view count" - less than 100 or so (certainly nothing with 500+)
"few comments" - less than 5 or so, preferably none (certainly not 20+ comments)

gil's photos are fine on those 2 counts unfortunately, once your shot has been found and revealed, there is no option but to remove it even in cases where all 3 conditions are met.

[grcav]

Quote brian schaller:

if you decide, as gil did, to upload existing pano shots, you have to accept the risk of someone exposing you, and having your shot(s) removed.

Hi Brian,

that risk was clear to me all along. No problems with the outcome from this side. Hopefully next time I'll be able to take some new shots for the competition.

Best luck everybody,

Gil

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Quote spc1-minimalism:

A very very simple way to remove the EXIF informations.

- Open your .JPG with MSPaint.
- Save it as a .BMP
- Close MSPaint.
- Reload you .BMP with any program and save it as a .JPEG with another name or overwrite the original.

That's all.

A "n" time simple way to remove the EXIF data.
Download the small program "PIXresizer" from the web, you can resize and save without EXIF data your picture with a single click.
Easier than ever...

[BWS's ghost]

thanks for the tip, bruno! i hope more entrants remove the EXIF before uploading in future SPC's. it's not critical, but is best to really keep your identity a secret as much as possible.


regarding the 2 entries that were removed from contention:
please note that this is the secret photographer challenge! since the photographer was revealed early in the voting there was a chance (however small) that impartial voting for/against his entries would occur and skew the final results. the only fair thing to do then is to remove entries that are revealed during the entry or voting periods.

please, always be aware that by following the entry "option" of using an existing photo, you are always at risk of having an entry removed because it is revealed early.


new possibilities for future SPC's:
- add a "guessing" period, after voting period but before revealing period, to allow entrants to guess which photos match to previous entrants and voters! winner could be determined by total of votes received plus correct guesses and discovered matches to existing photos (without revealing them to everyone!)
[7 days each for entries, voting, guessing, revealing]

- allow comments in the entry account, but without anyone revealing which photos are theirs, no matter who asks or guesses before voting is finished! (if you reveal yourself early, your entry would be removed)


the preliminary results have been updated. all top 10 entrants except #15 have revealed themselves now.

thanks to everyone who participated and voted!

congrats to martin (MHiller), nawitka and gil (grcav) for their 1st place photos!!! and, to our unknown #15!

[grcav]

Hi Brian,

while I appreciate that guessing might have a certain entertainment value, I don't think the result of the competition should depend on the ability of its participants to guess correctly. This would distract from the "photo competition" aspect of the game and also from the objective of impartially judging photos. Also, it would discourage newcomers, who don't know many people in the forum, from taking part. And finally, apparently we are short of time even for the more mundane activities of taking the photos, voting and revealing ourselves, so I don't think it is too good to shorten those times further.

Anybody else has some thoughts on this matter?

Gil

[Ian Dyer]

I don't think guessing the identity is a good idea. It could lead to more photographers identities being revealed.

[BWS's ghost]

thanks for the comments, gil and ian. i basically agree with you about the potential problems of a "guessing" period but wanted to give people a chance to think about it.

since it's already the 15th by pano time and martin has passed up the honor, #15 is not revealed yet, and nawitka has not responded yet (i left a message for her yesterday), it is now up to nawitka and gil to decide on who is starting spc3, if anyone!

good luck! i'll be around to help if you need any help. it's really much easier to moderate than npc, so far! checking the password once a day, and counting/reporting are the only tasks after starting it (by picking a subject, creating the entry account and the forum thread).

the spc2 thread will be locked soon. future mods can use the forum moderation thread (in questions and support forum) to lock the new game threads and can send an email to the pano team (questions[at]panoramio.com) to delete the spc entry accounts when finished with them.

thanks everyone!

[Nawitka]

While I am thrilled to be tied for first place this month !!! I can't help with the next month. I am still recovering from some problems caused by my new sysadmin.




Gil suggested "Spring Colours" as next month's topic and I think that's a great suggestion.

Good luck to everyone in the next contest! I might be able to join in later!

[grcav]

Ok. I'll organize the new thread.

Gil

[Nawitka]

I'm not happy that the entire spcship account has been deleted. How can we look at all the photos again? Now that the account has been deleted, all the thumbnails in the game thread are gone too.



Is this really necessary?

[Matthew Winn]

Quote Nawitka:

I'm not happy that the entire spcship account has been deleted. How can we look at all the photos again? Now that the account has been deleted, all the thumbnails in the game thread are gone too.

I'm not even happy about threads being locked when a competition is over. Why should one person get to decide that all further discussion of a contest is prohibited?

[grcav]

Hi there

as for the photos uploaded for the competition, what are the other options? I think that every person taking part has the right to ask for their photo to be removed. My view is that the default option should be that the photos should stay in the game account unless the photographer asks for them to be removed in which case, ideally, a link to the photo in that person's account would be provided. Do you think that would be a good idea? I think Brian was concerned about copyright issues and that is why the photos were deleted from the game account.

About the issue of locking the account of the game. I think it is natural to close the account at the end of the game. Since this thread is always open, any discussions can just go on here, so it is not as if the game ended when the account was locked. With the current arrangement at the end of the thread you get the winners instead of us blabbing. I find that a good arrangement.

Gil

[BWS's ghost]

Quote Nawitka:

I'm not happy that the entire spcship account has been deleted. How can we look at all the photos again? Now that the account has been deleted, all the thumbnails in the game thread are gone too.

Is this really necessary?

i think so, not only to protect copyrights but also to prevent comments being left after the game ends and then never found by the players who have dispersed. all those who really want to keep their photos on the system should, of course, upload them to their own account where they can be mapped, tagged, commented, etc.

"all the thumbnails in the game thread are gone too." ???
the top 10 were linked to the actual players' accounts, and the links are active. martin did not upload his photos to his account, and #15 remains anonymous. if martin and/or #15 upload their photos, i'd be glad to re-open the game thread to update those links.

also, all those players not in the top 10 but who linked to copies in their own accounts when they revealed themselves have active links to their photos.

Quote Matthew Winn:

I'm not even happy about threads being locked when a competition is over. Why should one person get to decide that all further discussion of a contest is prohibited?

the threads are locked simply to keep them from popping to the top of the forum and confusing players (especially new players) about which is the current game. as gil wrote, this thread can always be used to comment about any of the games, old and current.

[RobStamp]

Please see Daniela's question and my response in the NPC Toolkit thread

Does Gil, or future moderators, need to title every entry.
Why not leave untitled, untagged, and use this web page of smalls to view and make voting selection.
And before you jump and say "Where are the entry numbers", hover the cursor over the photo.
For the techically minded I do use title= , which works with IE7, FireFox3 and Netscape7.2, (when I initally used alt= FF3 did not show it).

Anyone with Excel and a website, should be able to produce the page (when I make the update to the Toolkit user friendly), so if a change of method is adopted it is not reliant on me.

Cheers, Rob
[Edit]
I notice that an entry can be deleted and re-entered (or not), effectively changing its number, so I will only add numbers to the photos after close of entry period. Work in progress as I write.

[grcav]

Hi Rob,

yes, entries can be deleted and re-entered, removed or replaced by other entries. I have had to do that myself with a few of other people's entries because they included borders/signatures and left the exif on the uploaded file.

I think that once the entry period is over I should number every entry. I was also thinking of making a picasa album so people can see the photos "full size" in a nice slide show, like in the Italian CSP. This also gives a standard solution to the problem finding an external website which the moderator would have to provide and does not require further paid programs such as Excel (I don't have that).

Does that sound like a good solution?

Gil

[RobStamp]

Hi Gil

It was a radical idea to suggest not numbering the entries in the account. So, yes, it has to be done for the game to stand on its own.

I can't argue with the superior presentation abilities of a Picasa slide show, but I'm not totally comfortable with copies of images going outside Panoramio, out of the owner's direct control. Then there's a headache for further debate, delete Pano account yes or no, so what of the Picasa album? does it remain, or personal requests to have a photo deleted?

My particular aim with all the smalls together was to assist in voting selection, clearly an advantage over 16 thumbnails at a time. Of course, after a full size Picasa slide show you can reduce the size, so I have to concede on that too.

You never know, maybe the New Improved Panoramio, when it finally arrives, will permit selection of viewing size on the tags screen.

My other aim, by providing the images via a web page, was to cater to those without Excel, who cannot use the NPC Toolkit as a viewing/selection tool.

Taking a step back, this is all voluntary effort, I've chosen to create the web page, it is there, to be viewed or not. And you can choose to create a Picasa album.

But primarily, let's all enjoy the photos, and have a fun competition.

Cheers, Rob (and watch out for those full stops in voting posts )

[grcav]

Hi Rob,

I'll appreciate better how much effort is saved by not numbering by hand once I have done it and have seen how much time I wasted with such activity.

About the different ways of displaying the photos, I find it extremely handy that you have a program which can make such a webpage automatically without the need for downloading the pics to your computer. I'm sure that putting all the images from the game in a picasa album will take some time and not all moderators may be willing to do that, so it is good to have another option. Well, also, not all moderators will be able to run your program, so people will need your help, but either way of displaying the photos is better than what panoramio can offer (pretty poor for a photo sharing website, when you come to think of it).

About the numbering, I think it is better if the photo title has that info, even if it is also available elsewhere. I'm sure some people will just use the panoramio spc account to select their votes, so the information should be easy at hand there as well.

So, when the entry period is over, please update your page of smalls with all the entries and sequential entry numbers and we provide a link to that page on the spc game thread (as well as a possible picasa album) and we give people the choice. What do you think of that?

My current intention is to delete the picassa album at the end of the game, but keep the photos in the account for a record of the game, unless required to remove them by the photographer. People can send me their views on that now or after the voting period, during the revelation part.

Gil

[RobStamp]

Hi Gil

Yes, I will update my web page of smalls after the close of the entry period, and a link to it on the spc game thread would be great.
Incase people miss seeing it or a picasa link, you might consider putting an amended comment on the first uploaded photo, (and/or the last?)

Cheers, Rob
[I posted the above as spc3spring yesterday]

[RobStamp]

Quote Nawitka:

I'm not happy that the entire spcship account has been deleted. How can we look at all the photos again? Now that the account has been deleted, all the thumbnails in the game thread are gone too.

Apparently, deleting an account does not delete the jpgs, although the orphaned jpgs might eventually disappear if a clean up is performed. SPC2 - Ship and Boats lives on (for now?)

I have 3 more like this, simply a cropped snapshot from NPC Toolkit.
It is currently at my website, so are there any objections to them being put in an 'unsecured' Pano account, like that for NPC awards? They are only thumbnails but still a copyright issue?

Cheers, Rob

[grcav]

Hi everybody,

I have a suggestion. What if instead of uploading the spc entries to a dummy panoramio account we uploaded them directly to a picassa album? This way we would automatically get the option of viewing the entries in a slide show and, if I'm not mistaken, when uploading you can just click on a box to exclude exif, so that would be easier for people to cope with.

Another advantage is that a moderator (either the monthly moderator or a fixed person) can easily back up the spc album on a daily basis so that if anything goes wrong, say, a hooligan decides to have fun with the password during the entry period, then at least most of the entries will be backed up and the album can be quickly repaired.

Besides that, I can not see any shortcomings of picasa which are not already present in panoramio.

The voting would still go on in the panoramio forum, so I imagine that Wim and Rob's program would still be able to count the votes and find the winner, though probably it would not produce the page of smalls (?)

Well, just an idea, what do you guys think of it?

Gil

[BWS's ghost]

hi gil and rob. great work on those albums!

gil's idea of entering photos directly into a picasa album sounds good to me.

in fact, i was planning to update the "guidelines" (at the top of this thread) to leave all decisions to each new moderator, except the basic concept of the game, of course!

each moderator would set, or leave unchanged:
- time periods (most convenient for the mod since they do the work)
- method of entry
- number of entries per participant
- what is/isn't allowed in a photo
- method of voting
- voting min/max (and any other restrictions)
- results format (top 10 or top 20 or a full list)
- whether the album(s) remain or are deleted

why not have a much more flexible game than the stodgy old npc?
simple guidelines are easy enough to read and follow each month, even if they keep changing a little over time.

what do all you participants think?

cheers, brian

[RobStamp]

It is a great relief to read Brian's response. One might have said, "It's Brain's game, play by his rules", yet the game requires contestants, so is it in fact their game. Regarding Picasa, can anyone argue that it is not a great viewing tool. And the idea that the entrants upload to a Picasa album rather than a Pano account, is no extra effort for them, and not an added burden on the moderator.

Giving the winner greater freedom in how to moderate the next game is surely a better prize than the, sometimes viewed, "penalty" of moderating.

PS The capabilities of NPC Toolkit should not dictate the running of a game, Picasa may make the web page of smalls redundant, but counting and results were the original design spec.
Rob

[Paul Strasser]

Hi all, these are all great ideas and I especially like the flexibility of leaving it up to the moderator to decide on a few of the mechanics in the game. I would probably prefer to continue with the current arrangement of having a dummy Panoramio account as well as a Picasa account for easy viewing. Possibly introduce the Picasa account at the voting stage.

Many people are fond of clicks and statistics and like to keep track of the view count on their photos. With Picasa you are unable to see whether a photo has been viewed – unless I’m mistaken and I’m not looking in the right spot – leaving you to wonder whether a photo is being looked at at all. As this contest differs from the others in regard to not having any communication whatsoever, the complete silence of not even seeing any view counts might be off putting to some.

Cheers, Paul

[grcav]

Hi Paul,

you are running the show now, so what you decide, goes. I made the proposal about the using only a picasa album because
1) it took me some time to get all the photos there the day the voting was supposed to start,
2) there is a possibility of committing a mistake and have photos with different numbers in the picasa and in the panoramio account,
3) it is so easy to just click in the slideshow button in picasa and see all the photos that it is unlikely people will not see some, while a recurring complaint in the NPC is that people don't even bother to open the thumbnails.

Well, those were my reasons, but I'm sure you can think about the problem and whatever you decide is good for me.

Best luck moderating next month,

Gil

[Paul Strasser]

Thanks Gil, I really appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers, Paul

[BWS's ghost]

congrats on your win in spc #3 with entry #3, paul!

i've updated the first post with the "moderator-decides-all-guidelines" idea as there seems to be no objection.

good luck setting up and moderating spc #4! do you have a subject and start date in mind?

cheers, brian

[Paul Strasser]

Thanks for the good wishes Brian and for all the effort you put into these games. I hope that you don’t have a real job to go to.

Next month’s subject will be STATUES. There are some beautiful shots out there with this theme and I’m sure a lot of people have un-posted photos in their archives thinking that they may not be accepted by Google Earth. This will be their chance to flaunt them.

The entry period will be from 15 May to 31 May. I’ll be sticking to the same time frames as in the previous months’ challenges. Don’t expect things to kick off at midnight though, I’m in a completely different time zone to Panoramio’s and have knuckled down to work by that time of day. It will either be later or earlier.

Thanks again Gil for sharing your experiences, you nearly made me run for the door. I’m kidding!

Cheers, Paul

[grcav]

Quote Paul Strasser:

Thanks again Gil for sharing your experiences, you nearly made me run for the door[...]
Cheers, Paul

In this case, I nearly did a good job. Since you didn't run for the door, i failled now I can tell you the truth: it all rather easy and you will have no problems I can try and give a helping hand if I see anything out of order.

Best luck

Gil

[RobStamp]

Viewing entries, the need/desire for a Picasa album

Hi Paul

With all the entries in one Pano account you can open the first photo, and then click next, next, next. Without maps and conversations to slow it down, I find it quite a good viewing method. Ok, so not a fullsize slideshow like Picasa, and jumping to different photos for a second look afterwards, to decide on voting selection, requires a return to pages of thumbnails.

It is for each mod to choose whether to make a Picasa album, the mod can also choose to inform voters of my web page of smalls, the production of which is mostly automated.

Cheers, Rob

[Paul Strasser]

Hi Rob,

I agree with you, it's not that cumbersome to scroll through the Pano account. Although I will post a link to a Picasa one, the slide show is a nice feature in that.

I'll surely add your account of smalls as well - it's brilliant, thanks for the offer and the hard work!

Voting time is nigh, so I'll be hearing from you again I'm sure.

Cheers, Paul

[grcav]

Next SPC topic will be landscapes. I'll create a new thread in the coming days.

Gil

[MHiller]

Hey Gil, now you take it easy it seems

[Chris Low]

First of all a big thanks for all the votes in this months SPC "Landscapes" and a special thanks to Gil our moderator.
Now I think the protocol is to have a new subject and time frame to run the next SPC over. I have a theme that is something a little different. Something broken and 15th July 31st July as an entry period
But from here on in I am in unfamiliar territory so will need some help from others in the moderating area. The first is how do I go about setting up an "@gmail"account. ops:

Ok I have passsed the first stage and have an account with spc6somet...@gmail.com Password spc6
Chris

[grcav]

Hi Chris,

one thing that may be helpful is to go to the landscapes thread, and click on "reply with quote" to the main announcements of the game, e.g., the first post stating the rules, the post saying people can start voting and the one saying people can start revealing themselves.

Then, copy the text from the quoted text into your preferred text editor and save it in your computer. Later, when posting these messages, you will only have to change what is particular to your competition, e.g., subject, panoramio account and its password, start date, number of votes etc... this will save you some time. After the thread is locked, you can not click on "reply with quote" and hence you can not copy the panoramio-formated text.

Besides that, starting a thread is pretty much like posting a usual post. The only difference is that you have to fill the "subject field" above. Since panoramio stopped displaying exif info on the photos, there isn't much else you have to do. Just every now and then check that nobody is leaving comments under other peoples photos or adding favorites to the game account (some people may forget to log out and just go on using the account thinking it is their own) or leaving comments under the photos in the game.

Creating a picasa account to go with the game is good, but requires quite a bit of effort. Since I didn't have the time this month, I didn't create such an account and trusted in Rob to produce his page of smalls which works nicely anyway. You will have to number the entries before the voting starts.

Best luck with your competition,

Gil

[Chris Low]

Quote grcav:

Gil thanks I think I have it right had a few hiccups with the sizing but other than that it seems ok
BTW if a photo is uploaded to Panormio with exif data there are still ways of seeing that data

Chris

[grcav]

Quote Chris Low:

if a photo is uploaded to Panormio with exif data there are still ways of seeing that data

I'm aware of that. But one thing is to get a program to read information which is not immediately available in order to do some detective work (which is highly discouraged in this game), another thing is to have that information present side by side with the pic. The latter is difficult to ignore.

Gil

[Antonio Campagnola]

I am sorry but I am not able to enter in the game account using the following details:

spclan...@gmail.com
and
spc6

there is something wrong or I have to wait tomorrow ?
Thanks
antonio

[Edoardo Eggel]

Quote kodak60(Antonio Campagnol:

there is something wrong or I have to wait tomorrow ?

antonio

There's... SOMETHING BROKEN!

[fefie.h]

Quote kodak60(Antonio Campagnol:

I am sorry but I am not able to enter in the game account using the following details:

spclan...@gmail.com
and
spc6

there is something wrong or I have to wait tomorrow ?

Thanks
antonio

landscape-competition is over, now comes

somethi...@gmail.com
Password SPC6

[Antonio Campagnola]

Quote fefie.h:

I think that the right one is:

spc6somet...@gmail.com
password spc6

the post should be corrected

Regards

[spc6somethingbroken]

Quote kodak60(Antonio Campagnol:

Sorry for the confusion yes this is the right one spc6somet...@gmail.com
password spc6

Chris

[spc6somethingbroken]

I can't upload a photo, always got the message: "This user does'nt exist any longer"???????

[Antonio Campagnola]

I have seen the album and and is my opinion that the foto should be numbered , by the authors, from #1 to #N otherwise it will not possible to vote

Thanks

[grcav]

Hi kodak,

The photos will be numbered from number 1 to number N by the month's moderator before the voting period. We don't leave it to the photographers to number their own entries because sometimes an entry has some irregularities and it must be downloaded, removed, corrected and resubmitted at a different point in the album, so if people number their photos as soon as they upload them, there will be some gaps in the numbering.

Gil

[Antonio Campagnola]

Quote grcav:

Hi kodak,

The photos will be numbered from number 1 to number N by the month's moderator before the voting period. We don't leave it to the photographers to number their own entries because sometimes an entry has some irregularities and it must be downloaded, removed, corrected and resubmitted at a different point in the album, so if people number their photos as soon as they upload them, there will be some gaps in the numbering.

Gil

Grazie GIL e scusa ops: ops:

[Edoardo Eggel]

Hi guys!
I think it's the last time that I'll participate in the SPC.
There is at least 20% of the photo that it's impossible to understand WHAT is broken!
My english is so poor so I can't explain very well what I want to say, but I think that the moderator must to exclude the photo out-of-theme.

Regards, Edo.

[Sandy065]

Quote © edonx:

Hi Edo!

The theme is something broken (I know you know).
Could be anything - buildings, machines, communications, water (like in broken water), clouds, rocks, wood, objects (at large), life, financial situation, feelings (broken heart), ideas, codes, difficulties (like in breakthrough)... Anything.

Something - if not specified otherwise - could mean anything...

At least give a chance to those photos until you will have the titles too (I feel I'm on the 20% with at least a picture ).

It would be nice to have the opinion of Chris Low too on this...

Don't give it up Edo!

Ciao! Sandy

[Chris Low]

Quote Sandy065:

Sandy you have covered the subject well in your description of my theme for this month.

As a photo is subjective thing you can show it to many people and get a lot of different thoughts as to what it means. I chose this theme with this in mind and have tried to get people to maybe think out of the square a little and invoke a little thought into what one might submit.

Like you I think there are a few photos that seem to be off topic but like the NPC I will leave it up to the voters to decide how they will vote for each individual entry.

Sorry Edo I know there is language difficulty across Panorimo with it being more European based or dominated. ops: but English is my only language

[antorenz]

Hi everybody,

I noticed that some entries this month have a frame. All entries were supposed not to have any borders, frames, watermarks, weren't they?

[spc6somethingbroken]

Quote antorenz:

Hi everybody,

I noticed that some entries this month have a frame. All entries were supposed not to have any borders, frames, watermarks, weren't they?

Yes you are quite correct I have left a message against each entry in the entry account Chris

[© Marcello Paoli]

Hi, Chris and All ..

Yet another Italian who complains!

Many of the photos have a resolution much higher than indicated in the rules ..

Edo

Also the pictures clearly Off-Topic... are On-Topic ... they broke the rules !!

Bye, Guys... Marcello.

[Chris Low]

Quote © Marcello Paoli:

My thoughts on resolution or image size are that not everyone that submits images to Panoramio are familiar with how to downsize images.

There are many many photos on Panoramio that are uploaded direct from the camera and are way to big in general for a web site.

As far as this rule goes it is one that I have copied from the previous SPC and have not really looked at image size in the images that have been submitted and as this months moderator must admit that one of mine is over size. ops: I have also just gone back and had a quick look at last months top 10 entries and at least 40% are over size. Chris

[Deep.blue]

Chris,for what my humble opinion is worth,i thought that your subject topic was brilliant as it allows all to use their imagination and as you say,think outside the box a little.i was previously unaware of this thread so i was pleased to find it and convey my opinion to you.i suppose that translating broken/damaged/not in its original state could be tricky and indeed as an english person living in france,i could see the issue,having often got things wrong as i learned the language.this lack of translation could also affect the voting depending on how somebody translates the term.i do not see that as a problem as it is all part of the fun of this great competiton.
i suppose that photography,art and interpretation are down to an individuals perception and opinion.thats what makes it interesting

[► Marco Vanzo]

Thanks Chris, thanks a lot for the opportunity to choose the new subject, thanks again to all of you SPC6 contestants and voters for your votes and appreciation, a great thing for me and my huge passion.
Well, the new subject I'm going this month to offer to you and your cameras is LOOKING UP
There are some beautiful shots out there with this theme and I’m sure a lot of people have unposted pictures in their archives thinking that it's not yet the time to reveal them, this is the right time to do that and show us your own treasures.
As usual the entry period will be from 15 August to 31 August,all the comments and question on this topic, please.
No votes until the posting period will be over and the second phase announced, now a good luck to everybody on this game.
A notice to you all, this month will see a team work, Chris as monthly moderator and me choosing the subject, this is the first time I guess and is the result of a gentelmen agreement.
Good luck to everybody and thanks again.

best gretings

Marco

[©Bruno Tortarolo]

Hi Chris and Marco, a great subject you have chosen and going to moderate, obviously it's for August, not for June...
All the best my friends, a very very good theme!
Ciao bruno.

[Dottor Topy]

Hi Marco and Chris , a great subject and great photos but.... I see many photos probably out of theme in which it'impossible to understand which is the subject. I'm confused...

[Chris Low]

Quote Dottor Topy:

Hi Marco and Chris , a great subject and great photos but.... I see many photos probably out of theme in which it'impossible to understand which is the subject. I'm confused...

Dotter a photo is a subjective thing so we will get many interpretations on the theme.

My thoughts are to take a photo of an image Looking Up it would need to be taken from a low camera angle but others might see this from another angle.
As an example there is one image entered that has a person playing a guitar on their back taken from an overhead position but the person because of their position would have to be Looking Up

As I said in last months competition we will leave it upto the voters to decide if the entry meets the requirements of the subject.

Cheers Chris

[RobStamp]

Hi Chris

I intend to upload a Voting Machine on Tuesday morning, say 6 or 7am (ie 5 or 6 GMT), to then head off for a few days walking. One thing I need to know before uploading, is the maximum number of votes. It has been 20% rounded down, so with current 142 entries, that means 28. If this seems too high for some people, me included, we can simply vote for less, no need to amend the rule. But if you choose to, as the spc allows, please let me know in time for my upload.

I expect to be back for the end of voting, and if you like, I can post the full results list for checking, in topic 20002. I could also post the provisional “top ten” with photo links, but in a code block. Thus you could access it via a “Reply with quote”, to put it in the contest thread where you can then make subsequent edits.

Cheers, Rob

[Chris Low]

Quote RobStamp:

Yes 28 does seem rather a lot 20 seems like a nice rounded number to me which is close to the vote count of the last 2 SPC's

Counting votes and cross checking is not a strong point of mine ops: even when there is an error there I have tendency to read right through it so any help in this area is much appreciated.

Chris

[► Marco Vanzo]

I believe that 28 votes are so many.

20 votes are enough for me, and I propose this number

Many thanks Rob And Cris,

ciao, Marco

[Feenixx]

some pictures uploaded for SPC7 (among them my clear favourite) contain detailed EXIF information - isn't this very explicitly against the rules and the spirit of this project? Is somebody going to cull/delete them before voting starts?

[RobStamp]

Hi Chris and Marco, I will set a max vote limit of 20 in the Voting Machine. I was doing some checking ready for tomorrow, and noted #36 was missing. So I renumbered from 37, and found it is a tricky job to keep the brain in gear, or perhaps 36 was deleted by the owner after your numbering. I now realise it might have been better to have left 36 missing, because some people may have made an initial selection with the previous numbers, and now need to be made aware to check their votes are as they intended.

Hi Feenixx, Welcome to the game as a newbie according to your account joined date, whether just voting, or we wait to see your entries revealed. Even if I could see the Exif which I can't, it would only hint at the photographer based on ones knowledge of their camera, so the spirit of the game regarding anonymity is hardly compromised at this time with Pano having disabled the Exif link.

Cheers, Rob

[Edoardo Eggel]

Too much pictures! I think next month the numbers of entries per user must be no more than 2.