the impossible skull

[johnW]

Hullo

I'm no expert , no archaeologist and no clout. However, when I inquire of those who are ,  the invariable response is "I'm no expert, ask Prof xyz ."  Hence I slipped in here looking for a brave soul who wishes to ruminate ( not urinate) .

So this topic came and went like a new year firework.   Dead silence shrouds the issue with a layer of presumption .      A skull from Bourke NSW is dated to 13th century and has a frontal fracture. 

Catalyst: Toorale Man murder mystery - ABC TV Science

www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4211835.htm

Toorale Man murder mystery. ... : ‘Head injuries of Roman gladiators ... and Australian archaeology’ .

--------------------------------------

However , an ANU research thesis 2016 provides facts in contrast :

" I have received the following comment from the writer: " The aim of the experiments were to determine whether traditional Aboriginal weapons could have caused trauma similar to that of the Toorale skull.  Unfortunately our methods did not produce trauma,.. "

Rachel Wang
School Administrator (Postgraduate Coursework Administrator)
(Archaeology, Anthropology, Bio-Anthropology, Heritage Studies & Development Studies)
School of Archaeology and Anthropology
ANU College of Arts and Social Sciences. "

-----------

The skull is discussed in Cambridge "Antiquity" 353. Oct 2016. "Kaakutja"  p 1318 showing this presumption for a wooden blade.  Both a forensic anthropologist who did king Richard III's skull and a surgery lecturer doubt that wood caused this long oblique excision.  Australia Museum's mulga-wood blades are 5-10mm thick at 10mm back from edge, surgical chisels are 2mm thick , Roman swords about 3mm.    Bone hardens under sudden shock and chisels are thin to avoid side damage when chiselling in surgery and swords also to allow easy penetration.  The thickness of wood prevents slicing the cortical bone and makes the blade bounce off at the angle of Toorale skull . My sharp mulga blade needed 6 direct strikes to make a shallow 15mm groove in pigskull then snapped.  The thesis is consistent with my efforts.

There is more, as they say, but could someone address these points first before going further.

mucho gracias

[Doug Williams]

John

 

As a co-author of the Nature Communications paper on the Toorale Burial I would be happy to have a brief one to one discussion on aspects of our analysis.

 

Regards

 

Doug Williams

 

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[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 
Hello JohW,

 

It's certainly quite a mystery.   Re "could someone address these points first before going further" what do you think more can be now said or done ... since quite a lot already has been done on it.

It looks like steel blade damage but for everyone else besides the Strongs team of amateur archaeologists 1200s by radiocarbon and backed up by OSL seems far far too early for such.

Wood doesn't seem to cut an answer so where to now.

Another mystery in the region that stretches my credulity too is what's atop of mysterious Mt. Oxley - and that Aborigines could/would have done all that (this is a long known mystery).

I'm also interested in Badger Bates' statement:  "We knew there was a massace here".    How .. ? ... anyone know.

Similar thing goes for a mountain out of Cobar on the Bourke road.

Cheers,

 

John at St. Ives.

Mucho gracias for circulating this to attention.

 

----- Original Message -----

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oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"OzArch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Thu, 19 Jan 2017 22:15:28 -0800 (PST)

Subject:

{OzArch} the impossible skull

--

[John Pickard]

Hi,

 

I have no idea how relevant this is to the Toorale skull thread, but on NITV (channel 34) tonight at 2315 (AEDT) there is a 45 minute doco “Toorale” described as “A look at the relationship between the Kurnu-Baakandji people and the National Parks and Wildlife Services working together to look after Toorale Station.”

 

Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com

 

From: Doug Williams

Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2017 11:12 PM

To: oza...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: {OzArch} the impossible skull

 

John

 

As a co-author of the Nature Communications paper on the Toorale Burial I would be happy to have a brief one to one discussion on aspects of our analysis.

 

Regards

 

Doug Williams

 

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[johnW]

Doug

Yes thanks. Your attachment seems to be your logo..  or my cookies are blocking it. Searching Nature Communications for Toorale skull / burial  .Aboriginal. Doug Williams gave several other articles but not Toorale .  

Could you send a brief summary on the skull trauma ?

John Welch

retired amateur

Armidale NSW

[johnW]

FuzzyWombat

"Wood doesn't seem to cut an answer so where to now."  Goodoh , the thesis writer said "unfortunately" there was no trauma using wood.     Cosmologists adjust their science when space-craft send "unfortunate" data contrary to assumptions.  So I submit that the answer is " metal sword" and adjustment is needed.  The sparse archaeology of Aboriginal abnormal artefacts includes the kadimarkara tree fossil in SA Museum. 

The native tribes of South-East Australia

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1177229307

Howitt Anna Mary - 

... of one of the fossil animals or reptiles which are found in the deltas of the rivers emptying themselves into Lake Eyre, and which the Dieri call Kadimarkara.

-

 "From south-eastern Central Australia, Howitt (1904: 433)  recorded that:

 Another legend accounts for the fossil remains found at Lake Eyre, and called by

them Kadimarkara, as having been creatures which, in the old times of the Mura-muras

[Creation ancestors], climbed  down from  the  sky  to the earth  by the huge Eucalyptus trees on which

it rested, and which grew on the western side of Lake Eyre."

"Kakakudana and the Origin of the Mound Springs: A Legend of the Urabunna Tribe

This legend professes to account for the origin of the fossilised marsupials and other creatures which are found in several places in the Lake Eyre district, and also for that of the mound springs which are so marked a feature of that part of Australia. "

---------------------

Artefacts need cultural context and so I suggest some loan-words with religious baggage   (or "lingo-baggage" , a new academic discipline ). The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs .  Makara festival is the new year event in India and Makara crocodiles are seen in Javanese / Balinese temples with pillars, crocodiles and water spouts.   The  Hindu / Buddhist  Makara monster heads are placed on temple pillars as supporters of world-order ( tantu) .

Lake Eyre becomes Kati Thanda | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au/...kati-thanda/story-fn9hm1pm-12265407174...

2012. The South Australian Geographical Names Unit yesterday agreed to recognise Kati Thanda -- 

meaning "meeting place of bosses"  ...

" The main feature of Sri Lankan Tamil society is the kuti system. Although the Tamil word kuti means a house or settlement, in eastern Sri Lanka it is related to matrimonial alliances.. Kuti also collectively own places of worship such as Hindu temples."

Tamil thandha / tanta means  " - given . from", as in deivam thandha "God-given".

தேவன்  தந்த

 குடிசை   தந்த  kuticai tanta " from cottage" ( or " from temple-committee .  temple-given" ) .

Tamils settled in Indonesia after 1025 CE.   In Indonesia , Old Javanese language ( 800-1300 CE).   kuṭi   (Skt hut, cottage)  means  " Buddhist monastery."

tanda  "category of dignitaries or officials. headman  ".

tantu (Skt thread, cord ; a succession of sacrificial performances; any continuity); " fixed order, establishment of the world order (the world = Java); established holy place, by which this order is maintained. "

-----

Then "meeting place of bosses", " from temple committee" and "monastery officials" have similar meanings.  

The tribal name Adnyamathanha means "people of the rocks" in  Flinders ranges south Australia , a dry barren area near Lake Eyre / Kati Thanda.  In Sanskrit-Tamil it may be adhanya ma thandha  "not prosperous nor given".

'The Bubbler' in the Wabma Kadarbu Mound Spring Conservation Park and part of the

Lake Eyre Supergroup, has the highest discharge of any individual spring ...

 The name of the park - Wabma Kadarbu - ( Katabhu?) is drawn from

Arabana language and means snake's head, reflecting the profile of

Mt Hamilton, an extinct mound spring within the park. The park protects

 a series of natural artesian mounds.

कटभू

kaTabhU

cheek or the temples of an elephant

Arabana : wabma ..snake

katabhu .. head  ?

( elephants are in Indonesia and not Australia).

Arabana people were Ngarabana. Nagara bana in Nepal and India means temple

 orchestra / group. Indonesian negara bahana is "country orchestra". Nagarane gita

 is Old Javanese "country's song" and Ngurungaeta are song-maker elders of 

Melbourne.   Ngareenbil "overseas islands" is the origin of the boat that arrived in

 Bundjalung country with 4 people ( Isaacs 1980) having Old Balinese names ( UQld).

Negarane beli in O Bali / O Java is "your beloved countryman".

-------------

"  When the lake is flooded it is a phenomenon that around midday the surface can

 become so flat and so perfectly reflective that the line between water and sky is almost

 impossible to  distinguish.  Local sailors say it is like ‘sailing in the sky’".

Then the name Kati Thanda suggests that lake Eyre is a large Buddhist temple.

Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre National Park - National Parks South Australia

www.environment.sa.gov.au/.../Kati_Thanda-Lake_Eyre_National_Park

Although the Arabana prefer that no-one walks on the lake because of their spiritual beliefs, 

walking on the lake's edge is permitted providing no damage to the local environment

 occurs.

( "Buddhist Temple Etiquette

• Remove Your Hat and Shoes: Shoes should always be removed and left outside of the main worship area. ").  

-

Then maybe the Toorale weapon was a magic Indonesian kris sword like the one Ken Arok used when Hindu-Buddhist priests rebelled against king Kertajaya of Kediri Java in 1222 . King Kritajaya  (in Skr) went to  devalaya "realm of gods" , "disappeared without trace" ( Coedes 1968). His merchant fleet and navy had been sailing to west Papua .   Maybe he took a trip to east Australia to the furthest distance at Yamba with some kris swords . The men on the Bundjalung boat gave laws to countries. The Clarence river at Yamba leads to Tenterfield with its  Dirahnggan legend resembling Darangan legend of Maranao Philippines. Javanese goldminers were in Philippines in 13-14th century. From Tenterfield area the creeks lead to the Darling river.

Dirahnggan – Clever Woman. The water then gushed out and carried the woman and the fig tree ...

Singkil - Wikipilipinas: The Hip 'n Free Philippine ...

en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php/Singkil

 famous Philippine dance of the Maguindanao people, ... of the ancient Indian epic, the Ramayana: the Darangen. ... who gracefully avoided the falling trees brought about by an earthquake., the Ramayana: the Darangen.

the Ramayana ... who gracefully avoided the falling trees brought about by an

 earthquake.

Darangen Epic of the Maranao People of Lake Lanao

-

So there is more of this stuff in support. How is it so far?

John Welch

retd retard

Armidale

[Denis Gojak]

Hi John W

You are absolutely right that we need to make sure our science does not just ignore awkward facts. 

However, there is a lot of distance between 'hard to explain cut' and a conclusion that it was made by a metal sword, and then a much bigger jump from this assumption to claims of direct connection to South East Asian cultures [I assume you are legit - we've been having trouble with the irony detector on Ozarch lately].  I don't think doing that necessarily serves science; rather it ignores it by chucking everything of a similar colour into a box together and then labelling it as a natural group.

Your first suggestion is:

"Artefacts need cultural context and so I suggest some loan-words with religious baggage   (or "lingo-baggage" , a new academic discipline ). The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs .  Makara festival is the new year event in India and Makara crocodiles are seen in Javanese / Balinese temples with pillars, crocodiles and water spouts.   The  Hindu / Buddhist  Makara monster heads are placed on temple pillars as supporters of world-order ( tantu) ."

One of the main researchers of the Karnic language family [which includes Diyeri] around Lake Eyre is Luise Hercus, who began her work there in the 1960s, before some of the languages died out.  At the time her day job was Professor of Sanskrit at ANU, so I suspect she, probably more than anybody else in Australia, would have been able to spot and validate any sort of linguistic or religious borrowing happening there.   Not saying that as the expert missed it, therefore its not there, but its one of the hurdles you'll have to overcome to convince anyone that there is more than sort of sound the same-ish coincidence going on.  

There is no aversion to looking at external connections where these seem plausible.  Recently, we had a discussion about not-eating-pig on Ozarch that introduced perfectly reasonable suggestions about Christian and Muslim dietary practices moving into the Lake Eyre Basin ahead of the pastoral frontier, and this didn't cause any of the archaeologists or anthropologists involved to have kittens.  It speaks well to a willingness to push our science, but matching words between unconnected languages is a shaky foundation to use to build an elaborate explanatory structure.

As there have been so many untenable linguistic claims put forward in the past, you'd have to show you have not fallen into the same old traps.  As starters, some of the reading I've found very helpful:

*  A readable overview on the various types of dodgy linguistics that are out there -  http://www.languagesoftheworld.info/uncategorized/a-guide-to-the-perplexed-how-to-identify-pseudo-linguistic-articles-in-the-media.html

*  Wikipedia has a solid entry on unfounded language comparison - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscientific_language_comparison

*  Australian linguist Mark Newbrook tirelessly campaigns about dodgy linguistics, including language comparisons.  Many of his articles are in the Australian Skeptic, which a lot of libraries would have in compendium CD, but also try - http://www.aske-skeptics.org.uk/mark_newbrook.html

*  And my favourite - estimating the probability that two unrelated languages might have words for the same thing that sound similar - http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm

Personally, I don't think we've done dealing with the skull, so attempting to rewrite the history of about 5% of the planet's land surface on the basis of some presumed null results is a bit presumptive.

Denis

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Denis Gojak

PO Box 457

Newtown NSW 2042

Australia

e   den...@tpg.com.au

m  0400 474 405

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

----- Original Message -----

From:

oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"OzArch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:33:20 -0800 (PST)

Subject:

{OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

FuzzyWombat

"Wood doesn't seem to cut an answer so where to now."  Goodoh , the thesis writer said "unfortunately" there was no trauma using wood..     Cosmologists adjust their science when space-craft send "unfortunate" data contrary to assumptions.  So I submit that the answer is " metal sword" and adjustment is needed.  The sparse archaeology of Aboriginal abnormal artefacts includes the kadimarkara tree fossil in SA Museum. 

The native tribes of South-East Australia

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1177229307

Howitt Anna Mary - 

.... of one of the fossil animals or reptiles which are found in the deltas of the rivers emptying themselves into Lake Eyre, and which the Dieri call Kadimarkara.

-

 "From south-eastern Central Australia, Howitt (1904: 433)  recorded that:

 Another legend accounts for the fossil remains found at Lake Eyre, and called by

them Kadimarkara, as having been creatures which, in the old times of the Mura-muras

[Creation ancestors], climbed  down from  the  sky  to the earth  by the huge Eucalyptus trees on which

it rested, and which grew on the western side of Lake Eyre."

"Kakakudana and the Origin of the Mound Springs: A Legend of the Urabunna Tribe

This legend professes to account for the origin of the fossilised marsupials and other creatures which are found in several places in the Lake Eyre district, and also for that of the mound springs which are so marked a feature of that part of Australia. "

---------------------

Artefacts need cultural context and so I suggest some loan-words with religious baggage   (or "lingo-baggage" , a new academic discipline ). The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs .  Makara festival is the new year event in India and Makara crocodiles are seen in Javanese / Balinese temples with pillars, crocodiles and water spouts.   The  Hindu / Buddhist  Makara monster heads are placed on temple pillars as supporters of world-order ( tantu) .

Lake Eyre becomes Kati Thanda | The Australian

www..theaustralian.com.au/...kati-thanda/story-fn9hm1pm-12265407174...

Then maybe the Toorale weapon was a magic Indonesian kris sword like the one Ken Arok used when Hindu-Buddhist priests rebelled against king Kertajaya of Kediri Java in 1222 . King Kritajaya  (in Skr) went to  devalaya "realm of gods" , "disappeared without trace" ( Coedes 1968). His merchant fleet and navy had been sailing to west Papua .   Maybe he took a trip to east Australia to the furthest distance at Yamba with some kris swords . The men on the Bundjalung boat gave laws to countries. The Clarence river at Yamba leads to Tenterfield with its  Dirahnggan legend resembling Darangan legend of Maranao Philippines. Javanese goldminers were in Philippines in 13-14th century... From Tenterfield area the creeks lead to the Darling river.

Dirahnggan – Clever Woman. The water then gushed out and carried the woman and the fig tree ...

Singkil - Wikipilipinas: The Hip 'n Free Philippine ...

en.wikipilipinas.org/index.php/Singkil

 famous Philippine dance of the Maguindanao people, ... of the ancient Indian epic, the Ramayana: the Darangen. ... who gracefully avoided the falling trees brought about by an earthquake., the Ramayana: the Darangen.

the Ramayana ... who gracefully avoided the falling trees brought about by an

 earthquake.

Darangen Epic of the Maranao People of Lake Lanao

-

So there is more of this stuff in support. How is it so far?

John Welch

retd retard

Armidale

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[Doug Williams]

John,

 

The attachment in my email to you was a pdf extract from Brough Smyth’s “The aborigines of Victoria: with notes relating to the habits of the natives of other parts of Australia and Tasmania”.  It can be found free of charge at https://archive.org/details/aboriginesofvict02smyt, I sent you pages  313-315 (397-399 of the pdf, or something like that). 

The skull trauma was described in the published article, I don’t think I could add significantly to that description or the illustrations.  The article can be found at

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/div-classtitlethe-death-of-kaakutja-a-case-of-peri-mortem-weapon-trauma-in-an-aboriginal-man-from-north-western-new-south-wales-australiadiv/3E957293B27AB3CD1A30FA7F3DB2BC80#fndtn-information

Supplementary materials provided for the article is obtained by clicking on the ‘supplementary materials’ tab can be found at

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/div-classtitlethe-death-of-kaakutja-a-case-of-peri-mortem-weapon-trauma-in-an-aboriginal-man-from-north-western-new-south-wales-australiadiv/3E957293B27AB3CD1A30FA7F3DB2BC80#fndtn-supplementary-materials

I think Denis made some useful comments with regard to the use of linguistics in this instance.

Regards and best wishes

Doug

 

 

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This message may contain privileged information intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above.  If this message was not intended for you, please note that you must not disseminate or copy it and are requested to immediately contact Access Archaeology & Heritage Pty Ltd.  The views expressed in this message are not necessarily those of Access Archaeology & Heritage Pty Ltd.

 

From: 'johnW' via OzArch [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2017 6:45 AM
To: OzArch
Subject: {OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

 

Doug

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

Hello Dennis,

Sorry to be mite tangential again, but I guess all things are related, or might be, in the final wash-up.

So I ask "What do you know about Luise Hercus and the Marnbi?"

I have so far collected about half an A4 photocopy paper box full of stuff on this .. especially re The Pinnacles near Broken Hill.

Re "The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs" all these things interest me too.

I was only out at good old Terrey Hills yesterday ... still chasing the reference to a "Crocodile Creek" there.

And when I was there (at good old Terrey Hills) I found there is a very convenient toilet block alongside the BIG FIRE TOWER there which I had never noticed before (entirely circumnatives having to use the semi-public toilet that you have to ask for the key of from a somewhat ?grumpy shop owner) -- and looking down (as I often do) I beheld about a dozen small circles on a sandstone block .. Here is one of them attached ( small-circle-Terry-Hills.jpg ).

Over a dozen small circles seen on sandstone block at Terrey Hills (22 Jan 2017) ------  but the block is loose and could be from anywhere.

( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5737284/small-circle-Terry-Hills.jpg )

There are umpteen thousands/?millions of these in Hawkesbury Sandstone.

I regard them as concretions but others (including a well-known astrophysicist) think they are man-made.

They are abundant along Woy Woy Road between Kariong and Woy Woy and, as some would know, a team of amateur archaeologists have mapped three or four thousand there and said it is the biggest star map in the world and that it would "Change world history".

So far, however, it hasn't changed world history that I am aware of.

Cheers, JohnB

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

"Denis Gojak" <den...@tpg.com.au>

To:

oza...@googlegroups.com

Sent:

Mon, 23 Jan 2017 08:26:52 +1100

Subject:

Re: {OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

Subject:

{OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

FuzzyWombat

"Wood doesn't seem to cut an answer so where to now."  Goodoh , the thesis writer said "unfortunately" there was no trauma using wood..     Cosmologists adjust their science when space-craft send "unfortunate" data contrary to assumptions.  So I submit that the answer is " metal sword" and adjustment is needed.  The sparse archaeology of Aboriginal abnormal artefacts includes the kadimarkara tree fossil in SA Museum. 

The native tribes of South-East Australia

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1177229307

Howitt Anna Mary - 

.... of one of the fossil animals or reptiles which are found in the deltas of the rivers emptying themselves into Lake Eyre, and which the Dieri call Kadimarkara.

-

 "From south-eastern Central Australia, Howitt (1904: 433)  recorded that:

 Another legend accounts for the fossil remains found at Lake Eyre, and called by

them Kadimarkara, as having been creatures which, in the old times of the Mura-muras

[Creation ancestors], climbed  down from  the  sky  to the earth  by the huge Eucalyptus trees on which

it rested, and which grew on the western side of Lake Eyre."

"Kakakudana and the Origin of the Mound Springs: A Legend of the Urabunna Tribe

This legend professes to account for the origin of the fossilised marsupials and other creatures which are found in several places in the Lake Eyre district, and also for that of the mound springs which are so marked a feature of that part of Australia. "

---------------------

Artefacts need cultural context and so I suggest some loan-words with religious baggage   (or "lingo-baggage" , a new academic discipline ). The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs .  Makara festival is the new year event in India and Makara crocodiles are seen in Javanese / Balinese temples with pillars, crocodiles and water spouts.   The  Hindu / Buddhist  Makara monster heads are placed on temple pillars as supporters of world-order ( tantu) .

Lake Eyre becomes Kati Thanda | The Australian

www..theaustralian.com.au/...kati-thanda/story-fn9hm1pm-12265407174..

[Michael Lever]

Don't be a sceptic Dennis, its bad for your rainbow unicorn chakras.

CLEARLY  - the connection is that Arabana Katabu is first century Aramaic "ארבנה כתבו" which translates as "He wrote it in the desert".

And "He" can only really mean one person (obviously thr 13th century date is wrong).

He did get around you know....

http://asis.com/users/stag/chrstbrt.html

[Denis Gojak]

Hi John

Short answer is that I know nothing of Luise Hercus and the Marnbi.  She is very approachable and perhaps would give you the answer herself.

Congrats on your discovery of [a] a useful public toilet at Terrey Hills.  [b] more of the cryptic are-they-or-arent-they circles.

For others who missed previous discussion, as John B explained the circles are ~coffee cup sized indented circles, found in sandstone, and are especially common in the Kariong area near Gosford.  Usually distinct sharp-edged edge profile, quite distinct from the dimpling effect you also get on sandstone.

Sometimes just rings, but usually flattish bottomed about 5-15 mm below bedrock surface.  Weirdly they appear on both the flat surface of sandstone outcrops, and I've seen a few that appear on vertical faces of sandstone boulders, cross-cutting the sedimentary structures.

About 100 years ago, Arthur Vogan thought they were manifestations of Indian migration, and suggested that cylcons were stood up in them.  More recently, as John notes, lots of speculation about star maps and such.  Personally, I wouldn't put my mortgage on any or all of them being either natural or cultural.

Their discovery in Terry Hills [south of the Hawkesbury] extends their range a fair bit.  Any one else seen anything like these?  John B is collating info.

cheers

Denis

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

Denis Gojak

PO Box 457

Newtown NSW 2042

Australia

e   den...@tpg.com.au

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----- Original Message -----

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oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"Ozarch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Mon, 23 Jan 2017 08:54:50 +0800

Subject:

Re: {OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

Hello Dennis,

Sorry to be mite tangential again, but I guess all things are related, or might be, in the final wash-up.

So I ask "What do you know about Luise Hercus and the Marnbi?"

I have so far collected about half an A4 photocopy paper box full of stuff on this .. especially re The Pinnacles near Broken Hill.

Re "The kadimarkara  seem to be Skt. khadi Makara " salt-water crocodile", tree-pillars and water springs" all these things interest me too.

I was only out at good old Terrey Hills yesterday ... still chasing the reference to a "Crocodile Creek" there.

And when I was there (at good old Terrey Hills) I found there is a very convenient toilet block alongside the BIG FIRE TOWER there which I had never noticed before (entirely circumnatives having to use the semi-public toilet that you have to ask for the key of from a somewhat ?grumpy shop owner) -- and looking down (as I often do) I beheld about a dozen small circles on a sandstone block .. Here is one of them attached ( small-circle-Terry-Hills.jpg ).

Over a dozen small circles seen on sandstone block at Terrey Hills (22 Jan 2017) ------  but the block is loose and could be from anywhere.

( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5737284/small-circle-Terry-Hills.jpg )

[Iain Stuart]

Michael – being one with God and therefore omnipresent, of course he got around, its an inherent characteristic and comes with the job!

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Ia...@jcis.net.au

--

[tessa corkill]

Hi John P

I watched the doco last night.  It seems to have been made just before the skeleton was found and focussed on the Aborigonal people who used to work on the property many years ago and their descendents. Many of these were present at a meeting to mark the formation of the Toorale national park which is jointly managed by NPWS and indigenous representatives. Well worth watching if it can be accessed on SBS On Demand or its NITV equivalent.

Cheers

Tessa Corkill

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[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Thanks Dennis,

I do have quite a bit on it already, including some of what she has researched.

It is one of those cases with some very different things said about it all.

Re " are-they-or-arent-they circles" ... they definitely ARE circles.

The question for some is what do the circles mean.

Re these little (abundant) circles there are indeed "quite distinct from the dimpling effect you also get on sandstone" as you state.   [A very few persons have confused the two ...].

The concretions are mostly coffee cup sized but they do occasionally get up to football size .. some that big are around "mini-Yengo" rock pedestal (which is near the Kulnura Oil Bore ruins).

Also I have been trying to find anyone else who is currently interested in them.

I know that you are ..  and I know what people have said of them in the past (different versions) but haven't come upon anyone else interested.

Also snames interest seems to have fallen away a bit .. from a ?peak some years ago.

Who else is still studying anything about snames?

I also asked the NSW Gov. where do they know of any CUPULES in NSW.    Did not get one single site in reply.   Do you know of any -- or anyone else.

I know of at least some 'suspected' ones.

Re the range of the circles or concretions seen in Hawkebury Sandstone, I have never seen any yet to the south of Sydney.     But other occurrences include:

* Breakfast Point on Parramatta River = probable, but not 100% certain.

* Good examples seen in stonework at old Sydney Hospital.

* One seen in stonework at Burwood.

* Several seen in stonework at Ashfield.

* Can be seen in the flagging stone at the entrance to Ku-ring-gai Council chambers at Gordon.

But most such places one is seeing them in transported rock.

As for in situ I am told there were common is a sandstone quarry at Bondi -- where the quarrymen supposedly used to refer to them as the sandstone's "Kidney stones".

Re "About 100 years ago, Arthur Vogan thought they were manifestations of Indian migration, and suggested that cylcons were stood up in them" ... sure was a nice theory too.   And over the opposite side of Woy Woy Road are immense (metres diameter) circles ..... [the 'Space Gordon' people have so far not commented on those big circles..] which I still have no real idea on how they could have formed.

Nominated those as heritage too .. but like everywhere else that I have nominated heritage in Government or National Park land .. it all goes nowhere fast and the years just tick by with little happening.

Re concretions in Hawkesbury Sandstone (if these small circles ARE concretions, and I think they are) the geological literature on the Hawkesbury Sandstone have very rarely, if ever(?), mentioned them .. even though there are millions of them.    One geologist did take notice of little circles .. but I think the 'dimples' type, not the concretions, and started to see linear arrays in them ... and according to how many dots in each lot began thinking that maybe we had an Aboriginal morse code sort of communication going on.    He never went as far as Mr Slater in reckoning he could "read' what Aborigines were "writing".    It was merely published as an 'idea' -- an idea that then died a natural death over time.

Cheers, John

 

 

'

 

----- Original Message -----

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[Jeannette Hope]

Luise Hercus was Reader in Sanskrit (in linguistics) at ANU, so if there was a Sanskrit connection with any Aboriginal language, I think she would have said so by now. 

 

I know Luise reasonably well (have the honour of co-authoring a paper with her) and can assure everyone she has no tolerance for false etymologies or even speculative ones, as I know from hard-learned experience! 

 

Jeannette

--

[John Pickard]

Hi all,

 

First a plea: when you change the topic, PLEASE change the subject of your email. This is what is known as courtesy!

 

Second: I have seen endless emails about these circles and the rather stupidly-named “snames”. And apart from some interesting but grossly incomplete info on distribution, it is all endless speculation with no evidence to support any theory.

 

Has anyone had the nous to get off their theorising backside and actually done something intelligent like sectioning them with a rock saw? What do they look like below the surface? What does the weathering front look like? These are pretty basic and obvious questions that may help eliminate some of the alternatives. Unless and until that’s done, then all the emails about their origin are nothing more than content-free waffle.

 

There are plenty of them that are not on NPWS estate or Crown Land, so rather than more pointless speculation, hire a petrol-powered rock saw and see what’s under them. And please don’t tell me that you can’t “desecrate” them with a rock saw because they are culturally significant!

 

Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com

[john welch]

The Cambridge article was written while the lead author was supervising the contrary pig-skull research which is an interesting method. It says:   .".. Analysis indicates that the wooden weapons known as 'Lil-lils' and the ...". No analysis is given apart from noting rock art of boomerangs and that some blades were sharp .

The Toorale fracture is angled at around 30degrees.  As barngeet blades are bi-convex and oval in cross-section then the dimensions of 40mm width x 12mm thick give an angle of around 30degrees.  The lower edge would be along the base of the fracture so the combined angle is 60degrees against the trabeculae between the cortical layers. This is effectively a blunt instrument when the blade deflects horizontal to the lower cortex  . 

"The higher the angle of the bevel the stronger it becomes but the harder it is to drive into the wood. A 60 degree chisel would be very difficult to use in most circumstances because you would have much greater resistance when driving it into the wood. "_  email from chisel collector.

"The biological composites with staggered arrangement, such as bones, also have excellent resistance to mechanical shock (Sen and Buehler, 2008 )."

US Patent 4586496A
" .. Whenever long stretches have to be severed, for example in osteotomies, chiselling in the upper head region of the femur, or chiselling away the articular surface of the tibia, not inconsiderable difficulties arise for the surgeon when using conventional chisels, due to the large chisel cross-section, namely in particular the risk of a premature and, in some cases, uncontrollable fracturing of the bone, excessive traumatism of the bone and the risk of jamming the chisel, which can then generally only be removed with difficulty. 
Since, by virtue of the guide, the chisel blade can be very thin, eg. 0.5 or 1.0 or 1.5 or 2 mm, there is only a small widening of the cutting gap by the chisel thickness. The risk of premature fracturing and jamming is thereby decreased. The traumatism of the bone is reduced. ."

 Australian Museum -  
 
 > ". I have just been looking at our ( Aboriginal wooden) sword clubs, and they are all different lengths and thicknesses, and many are also not completely flat. They are definitely thicker than 2mm. It is a difficult section to measure accurately, but I would guess that at 10mm back from the edge, the depth ranges from 5 to 10mm."
-----

GLADIUS MACHETE W/SHEATH ... Iberia (Spain) and adopted by the Roman Legions, the Gladius, with its long, ...

Specifications:
Blade Length: 18"
 Blade Thickness: 2.8 mm

---------------------

"Please see below picture of one of the chisels in our range. 
Their shape is conical - so yes, less than 2mm in the very tip." _  B.Braun Australia Pty Ltd

B. Braun Australia - Products - Surgical Instruments

Objections welcome.

john welch

bone basher

Armidale

[john welch]

The Cambridge article was written while the lead author was supervising the contrary pig-skull research which is an interesting method. It says:   .".. Analysis indicates that the wooden weapons known as 'Lil-lils' and the ...". No analysis is given apart from noting rock art of boomerangs and that some blades were sharp .

The Toorale fracture is angled at around 30degrees.  As barngeet blades are bi-convex and oval in cross-section then the dimensions of 40mm width x 12mm thick give an angle of around 30degrees.  The lower edge would be along the base of the fracture so the combined angle is 60degrees against the trabeculae between the cortical layers. This is effectively a blunt instrument.

[john welch]

Dear Michael

Excellent work, you have insight into the Ngarampaa elders of Murawari and Euahlayi country. Ngarampa is one of the highest degrees in Tantraya Buddhism and chakra .

Muruwari tribe believed that Bida-Ngulu (meaning 'forehead of fire')

Read more... - Healing Magazine on Alternative and ...

theartofhealing.com.au/artist-steve.html

The Muruwari tribe believed that Bida-Ngulu (meaning 'forehead of fire') was the creator of all things. Bida-Ngulu lived in the sky and his greatest gift to men and .. his son Ngulu-Bida..

Guru Chakra - Yoga Meditation

www.swamij.com/guru-chakra.htm

Guru Chakra is experienced in the forehead, and is also called Jnana ... of Ajna Chakra and offers them into the higher knowledge, the triangular shaped fire of ...

---------------------

"CLEARLY  - the connection is that Arabana Katabu is first century Aramaic "ארבנה כתבו" which translates as "He wrote it in the desert"."

Slightly off-track there and Afghans took a while to arrive. They spoke about kuttabul.

 Kuttabul : Aboriginal word meaning wonderful. Farmers cart a bull and stud cattle are a cut above. Chainsaws have a cutter bar and stiffs are cadavers. However both kadarbu and katabhu refer to a head which is also wonderful and not bull.  I'm not going gee-whiz at a couple of words but there are many examples across Aust which may justify observation before judgement.

john welch

Armidale

[john welch]

Hi Jeannette

Sanskrit kuta tantu means "untrue, fort.  string,line". In Old Javanese it is "Buddhist hermitage. world-order".   Javanese is 50% Skr so the alleged loans may not be apparent to a Sanskrit speaker. Linguists doubt the history and historians doubt the linguistics, as archaeologists doubt both. So the issue of the skull is decisive in this situation.   Macassan Skr-Indonesian loans are justified by history /archaeology.

[john welch]

Hi Denis

A linguist gave me that data on word statistics , implying that Japanese news would make some alternative sense to English speakers . I mentioned Macassans' contact and he said those are loan-words...(!).   Aboriginal words ( and bahasa)  are usually single meaning which curtails the statistics.

Indeed one name or two at Lake Eyre is irrelevant but the counter-intuitive mix of heaven-trees , crocodiles and water-springs in spiritual context may have been unknown to sensible linguists.  It's the Australia-wide pattern of Hindu-Buddhist Javanese-Sanskrit traditions in mens' business, legends and even democracy of Ngarrindjeri  country with Javanese terms that rings my bell.

Ngurunderi killed Parampari a sorcerer using his plonggi throwing club on Coorong. Ngurunderi. Old Javanese: negarane diri " country's outstanding ruler" , he created the Murray-Darling on his Lalanganggal "fast raft of grass-trees and reeds". Balinese lalang enggal " grass .fast". Javanese lalang "thatch".Parampara " line of Hindu-Budhist teachers" of India and Bali. Plonggi Sanskrit palyang "spin, turn". Cebuano Philippines palang "cutlass, butcher's knife".

Indonesian palang "cross-bar".

Grass watercraft were known in the region:

"Two kinds of canoe seem to have entirely disappeared, and are onl)' 
represented in sketches or descriptions. For Polackf says: — "Among the early occupants of New Zealand canoes were made entirely of the bulrush (typha). We have seen between Kaipara and HokiangaJ one of these vessels of olden time nearly sixty feet in length, capable ot holding as many persons, but they are now (1836) wholly in disuse. They were remarkably thick, formed entirely of rushes, except 
the thwarts, and resembled the model of a canoe in every particular. They were remarkably light, like the coracles of the ancient Britons, though many bundles of rushes were consumed in forming them, and were paddled with much velocity, until saturated, when they settled down in the water. "§ 



* From Shortland, "Traditions of the New Zealanders," 1st ed., p. 140; 2nd ed., p. 168. 

t Polaok, vol. 2, p. 221. JPolaok, vol. 1, p. 218. 

Three spellings of the rafts:

"The twin peaks, large permanent sandhills of Mount Misery on the eastern shore of Lake Alexandrina are known as Lalangenggul or Lalanganggel (Two watercraft) ."

Murray river. wiki

. The twin summits of Mount Misery are supposed to be the remnants of his rafts, they are known as Lalangengall or the two watercraft.

Old Java  ḍiri  
1. to stand, stand upright, remain standing; to be in function, reign 
2. prob.: standing alone, outstanding, surpassing all others .

-

This stuff goes on and on . I feel there's a synergy when all the examples are piled up in consistent patterns and a physical skull matches the history and legends of Java / east Australia.

John

[johnW]

Hi Michael how are you,

" your rainbow unicorn chakras."
----------

Excellent work, you have insight into the Ngarampaa elders of Murawari and Euahlayi country. Ngarampa is one of the highest degrees in Tantraya Buddhism and chakra .

Muruwari tribe believed that Bida-Ngulu (meaning 'forehead of fire')

Read more... - Healing Magazine on Alternative and ...

theartofhealing.com.au/artist-steve.html

The Muruwari tribe believed that Bida-Ngulu (meaning 'forehead of fire') was the creator of all things. Bida-Ngulu lived in the sky and his greatest gift to men and .. his son Ngulu-Bida..

Guru Chakra - Yoga Meditation

www.swamij.com/guru-chakra.htm

Guru Chakra is experienced in the forehead, and is also called Jnana ... of Ajna Chakra and offers them into the higher knowledge, the triangular shaped fire of ...

---------------------

"CLEARLY  - the connection is that Arabana Katabu is first century Aramaic "ארבנה כתבו" which translates as "He wrote it in the desert"."

Slightly off-track there and Afghans took a while to arrive. They spoke about kuttabul.

 Kuttabul : Aboriginal word meaning wonderful. Farmers cart a bull and stud cattle are a cut above. Chainsaws have a cutter bar and stiffs are cadavers. However both kadarbu and katabhu refer to a head which is also wonderful and not bull.  I'm not going gee-whiz at a couple of words but there are many examples across Aust which may justify observation before judgement.

Mr John Welch 

unbeliever

Nganyawana country ( Sulawesi lexicon) nganya wana

 

 

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hello,

 

Now that Mr Trump is in the White House, I suspect that 'unbeliever' is going to become more the fashion.

For it is a general rule (I've noticed) that whatever America does, Australia seems to follow.

Cheers,

 

JohnB

(Some days I believe some days I don't .. depends on moods and things I suspect ??? )

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"OzArch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Sun, 22 Jan 2017 18:53:26 -0800 (PST)

Subject:

Re: {OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

--

[Michael Lever]

John, 

I believe that the more languages one speaks / is literate in, the less likely one is to be fascinated by apparent linguistic similarities. Once one understands the etymology and linguistic context of a word, superficial similarities are very unconvincing.

In the same manner that few zoologists would propose that moths, cicadas, birds and bats all belong to the same class, due to their all possessing wings.

FYI - Afghans generally speak Pashto or Dari, both of which are written in Arabic / Persian script. Not Aramaic which is written in Assyrian imperial block.

Of course polyglots enjoy multiple-language punning. A prime proponent is my mate Ghilad Zuckerman of the Bangarla Language Reclamation Program, Adelaide Uni, who frequently posts items that he finds amusing in Chinese/Bangarla/Hebrew/Italian/English.These are puns.  Nothing more.

There's a further reason why linguists don't take random word similarities seriously. Its not a conspiracy. Just that many decades of enthusiastic academic attempts in the 19th century to prove inter-continental linguistic connections based on isolated words, consistently went absolutely nowhere.

Cheers,

[tessa corkill]

Hi Michael

To which John are you writing (the word/name is the same but I suspect they are different people with different ideas, some of which I have difficulty in following, simple soul that I am)?

Anyway, I absolutely agree with you about the folly of equating superficial linguistic similarities and would extend the concept to similar looking artefacts.

Cheers

Tessa Corkill

--

[john welch]

The people on the boat from Ngareenbiln which arrived at Yamba NSW were Ya Birrein, Birrung and Mamoon with grandmother Gaminyah ( Isaacs "Australian Dreaming" 1980 pp13,14).

Ya Birrein is Old Balinese "the first" , Birrung "the last " and Mamoon "uncle". per D Putra. UQld Schaol of  Languages.  Yamba is Bundjalung country and Gidabul group have custody of the legend.

Mamoon. Bundjalung mahmang "father, father's brother, father's male cousin".

Old Balinese maman "uncle".

Sanskrit

माम

mAma

uncle

Gaminyah.  After the shipwreck at Yamba  the three brothers said " 'The only possible chance is to make a canoe and return from here from island to island ' . The families said "..mother has gone out.." They searched.. trying to find the old woman but she had wandered too far out of reach of their search . . So they.. took to the ocean.. with the intention of returning.." ( Isaacs).  They were again wrecked at Evans Head .

Sanskrit gamin going,

: yah.  anyone who;

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10, Chapter 20, Text 10

asann utpatha-gaminyah "  strayed from their proper courses,"

असन

asana    sending

utpatha  lost, stray, wrong road

गमनीय

gamanIya

relating to going

Bundjalung ngara "sea" may be the place of  Ngareenbil , the direction to the island. For example:

Old Javanese. barat  west 
    aṅabarat     towards the west 

Tom Boellstorff - 2005 - ‎Social Science

... Indonesian “west,” barat, comes from the Sanskrit and now Hindi word for India (bharat), ...

-

The direction means the land located there . Bundjalung ngari is "tribal dance" and Negara was the ritual theatre state of Hindu Bali . ( Geertz 1980) noted for temple dancing.  Indonesian negara "country".

Birrung was remembered as going south through Gambaingirr country.  The last speaker of Yaygir dialect at Yamba , the late Della Walker, told me that the strong god there is Mahhji , as I heard it twice , and confirmed by her sister.  Indonesian mahaji is "respected lord" , and Marathi India Mahadev Mahaji is  a poetic term for Shiva .

John Welch

puerility dissembler

Terra incognito

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hello,

 

I am serious contestant in the "very simple soul" stakes - so here goes.

If the Aborigines DID come here via southern India (and Indonesia) --------- the very thought of which could give the Kariong Five the screaming hebee jeebies since they insist the human race was 'created', or genetically engineered, somewhere thereabouts and approximately off the end of the old section of Bambara Road, Kariong .. near the "Kariong trough" supposed [by some] as a traditional 'birthing place' depression in the rock where even to this day it is said no woman can lay down in it for more than three minutes and not arises totally changed/epiithanised -------- then I have a ?simple question -- which JohnW could surely answer.

Sanskrit according to my bible (Wikipedia) means the 'refined' way of talking and is the primary sacred speech of Hinduism and its ?offshoot Mahayana Budhism .. the 'greater' vehicle to enlightenment.

Refined or 'cultured' language.  Probably anybody who can speak it or discourse sensibly about it, or geology, can get free accommodation at Wellington Caves.

The number 22 is special and Sanskit is one of the 22 specially recognised languages of India.

It is one of the oldest Indo-European languages for which substantial written documentation exists.

But how old is old?    Is there anything older than Vedic sanskit that can be proved?   A few thousand years ago.

Have some people not said that even if the Aborigines had come through that way it was long before any of the Hindu or Buddhist languages were around?

Of course, I don't know how they'd know that either.

Would be interested in JohnW's opinion on this as I know very little.

Contra the 'argument' that these languages are 'too young', it would seem to me we equally do not know the words spoken before them - hence difficult to totally rule out anything(?).

To me, Aboriginal speech at Bourke DOES sound a fair bit like what I hear on the main street of Homebush, where there is a Tamil high content.

But I am no linguist .. I know just enough Latin, French and German to make a fool of myself at times.    I used to think that the Osterreich was the oyster kingdom  :-)

But I have switched now to the Asian languages, to keep up with the neighbours; have learned one whole sentence and am amazed and delighted that some of them actually seem to understand me.   I say the words in Chinese "We are Happy" as well as hello and very good.

And I also think it is probably folly, or leading nowhere, to equate superficial linguistic similarities.   Yet I believe we will see many continuing on doing it.

I have always thought linguists pretty smart - I learned of Louise Hercus' work maybe 10-15 years ago.

Cheers,   JohnB

(Opps .. I almost signed myself as JohnW by accident .... that would have been confusing ... )

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From:

oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"Ozarch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Tue, 24 Jan 2017 14:23:21 +1100

Subject:

Re: {OzArch} Re: the impossible skull

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hello,

Re thoughts of Indian asiatics working their way down the east coast and what John Welch thinks (i.e. It appears that Indonesian Hindus sailed to east Australia, possibly on a njunjau merchant boat from Kalimantan .... Bundjalung people of north NSW coast remember that a boat arrived. By 1527 Islam expelled Hindu royals and brahmins from Java to Bali and Lombok.   At Yamba where the boat landed, the Ngaru village "the sea" possibly means " overseas" as in Ngareenbil "overseas islands" from where the boat came. Bundjalung language ngari means "tribal dance". The connection may be the Nagara ritual system of Bali".

Compare that to what our "first archaeologist" (as Dennis said) thought about the "Rabbits site" on Woy Woy Road.

I think he thought Asiatic moon worshippers were coming south?

Correct me if wrong.    Dennis has pored over his diaries .. I have a quick look.

It's to do with (at least along Woy Woy Road) the "little circles" on sandstone.

And I am a bit disappointed that I have convinced so few  ... indeed Anyone? ... that these are concretions and predate the coming of man (woman too) to this planet.

I couldn't even convince an astrophysicist on this point.

 

Cheers,

 

JohnB

 

~~~~~

----- Original Message -----

From:

oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"oza...@googlegroups.com" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Tue, 24 Jan 2017 01:29:52 +0000 (UTC)

Subject:

{OzArch} the impossible skull

--

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hello,

Re thoughts of Indian asiatics working their way down the east coast and what John Welch thinks (i.e. It appears that Indonesian Hindus sailed to east Australia, possibly on a njunjau merchant boat from Kalimantan .... Bundjalung people of north NSW coast remember that a boat arrived. By 1527 Islam expelled Hindu royals and brahmins from Java to Bali and Lombok.   At Yamba where the boat landed, the Ngaru village "the sea" possibly means " overseas" as in Ngareenbil "overseas islands" from where the boat came. Bundjalung language ngari means "tribal dance". The connection may be the Nagara ritual system of Bali".

Compare that to what our "first archaeologist" (as Dennis said) thought about the "Rabbits site" on Woy Woy Road.

I think he thought Asiatic moon worshippers were coming south?

Correct me if wrong.    Dennis has pored over his diaries .. I have a quick look.

It's to do with (at least along Woy Woy Road) the "little circles" on sandstone.

And I am a bit disappointed that I have convinced so few  ... indeed Anyone? ... that these are concretions and predate the coming of man (woman too) to this planet.

I couldn't even convince an astrophysicist on this point.

 

Cheers,

 

JohnB

 

~~~~~

----- Original Message -----

From:

oza...@googlegroups.com

To:

"oza...@googlegroups.com" <oza...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:

Sent:

Tue, 24 Jan 2017 01:29:52 +0000 (UTC)

Subject:

{OzArch} the impossible skull

--

[john welch]

The Sasanians terrorised Aramaic Afghans with wooden swords , wooden faces and wood bread- knives.  Afghans said " I wouldn't do that" but Sasanians said "I would" and took their Old Persian male-suffix plural ( -gal) to south India along with Kamboja horses to Sri Lanka from 300BCE.  Limping horses received wooden legs up to number three as they couldn't go forward.

"Every area in Bali is run by a local banjar with the male heads of each family representing each family.  Banjar nagara village in west Java. Skr banjaru "tree near temple"  langa"association".  OJava lunga "tree species". lunguh "respective position, put in office".)

 "Here every person living in the village, including me," Sastry explained, "must report to the banjar, the village leader,. Here it is the banjar who will do everything. If there is a death in your house, it is the banjar which will take care of everything."

Bundjalung has some isolated random words and is isolated from Yorta Yorta on the Murray.

-ba intensity of action , faster                             Skr .banh to grow,increase.

badhal part way                                                        bandhala inclined, bent.

badhgul lies for joke                                              badhya oppressed , pain. ya behave.       

bagarah pregnant       OJava bhaga                           bhaga womb

dabhang hit two objects together                               dabha injure

dabu shallow                                                            dabhra  small , deficient

dagarhal bad ghost                                                   dagdha  tormented, inauspicious

                                                                               ahara breath

                                                                                aharika part of soul of holy man travelling to 

                                                                                saint.

dagi cease to exist      OJava dagdha .                     daghda consumed by fire 

dalang white                                                             dalana of teeth

dalangahyn white marks on face , Pretty Faced Wallaby.                    

" Grey above, white below; white face stripe; " the vivid stripe runs along the teeth-line of the wallaby.

                               OJava . gahan famous, generally known.   

damgay greedy.       OJ dambha greedy                   dambhika cheat, hypocrite. 

daram dry                                                              daridra needy, deprived

dayuhl, deyar poor season                                      day have pity on

                                                                            diya deserving of gifts

durgal dirty                                                            durgi difficult to approach

-dha 2nd hand information, from past                       dhar supporting, remembrance

-dhahr  exactly like                                                 dharma justice  

The Classical Sanskrit noun dharma is a derivation from the root dhṛ, which has a meaning of "to hold, maintain, keep",  Buddhist cosmic law and order.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yorta Yorta  language.

wungi man.               Java   wong people .  Bali wong man

bukit above               OJava bukur small building, pagoda roof.  Indo. bukit hill

djuweda friend          OJava jataweda  .  god Agni known by all his creatures.( weda/ vedatexts).

baitun across.                                                     Indo badan agency.

dhangan seed cake    OJava dhanya  corn, grain

djiyaman afraid          Skr jihmam to miss one's aim

angin      air                  OJ angen moving from place to place

dhona alive                  OJ dUna   distressed , agitated. dUnasa imperishable 

wata all                        OJ warta spread far and wide, evenly distributed

bumidakabiya along     OJ bumi land. daka same as. biya contribution.

yenbena ancestor       Skr yan, yena by whom. since. OJ yan since.

                                    OJ bhena lord of stars, bener  straight by compass.  beneh true

golyinan angry            OJ gulo hard feelings. yana moving, marching

wiya any                     OJ  wiyos product, originating from.  wiyar  broad, wide.

ganbina arise             Bali ganggas big, tall. OJ  beneh true.

                                   (Skr gangobheda   source of  Ganges river ).

gaman spear              Skr gama, gamana going, course.OJ gaman troops, agagaman using                                      weapon.

mina ask                     Bali minabang guess.  minab apparently. menab result that.

mathi bad                   OJ mada pride, rage.  Java  mati, maut death.

bayi breasts                Skr bAyli babyish. Java  bayi baby.

wanagaga the bush, (forest land of tribe). Skr vana , OJ wana   forest.

                                   OJ gaga dry field.  gagah to stand one's  ground .

ganya call                            Skr ganya to be counted , taken notice of.

manu camp ( of tribe)       Skr manu, OJ manuh man.

moirra lake                   Skr mira sea.  

ngarraga  clever man   Skr nagarika clever , civilised . nagaraka town chief.

                                     OJ nagarika  courtly, refined.

dhaman old man          Skr dhaman , daman liberal man.domain OJ daman title.understand clearly. 

guli low                         OJ gulin sleep  .gumulin to lie down .

gatha cannot                Skr gata dead  . OJ gata gone.  

barrangala club            OJ baranka sheath for keris sword.

banga club                   OJ bancar dispersed , routed.  bhanga break.

duta star                       Skr , OJ dyuti shining heavenly body. *dyeu Zeus.

damanmu corroboree   OJ daman self control. understand clearly.  - mu 2nd person.

garradha corroborree   OJ garadag with much noise. garah ready for combat.

woka country                OJ wukir mountain.

maya cure                    Skr maya sorcery , medical treatment.

dhala darkness             OJ dalu night

guka die                        OJ guguh toothless, old age.

birrya disrespect           OJ bhiru cowardly

waka district                  OJ wahyaka external , outward.

watjuka gorrkarra  drive a lover away with cursing song.  OJ ghorakarma dreadful things.

buurrii elder sister. bure young sister. burai child.    Skr buri womb . OJ buranah have many children.  barut swaddled.

----------------------------------

John the Afghan Wood

wood-smith

Armidale forest ( Skr wana as in Gondwana , Wenaruah and Naganywana)

[john welch]

Maybe the British invented the Church but evidently it came from Vatican Italy.  It is most likely that if loan words appear in southeast Australia they will be Indonesian due to its proximity and high level of culture . And visits are also unlikely due to environment , with First Fleet people almost starving in 1789. Macassans just came for fishing .

The sword date of 1200s fits an unusual culture in Indonesia when kings were Hindu-Buddhist. This would need to be replicated in Aust if it's claimed that a king escaped a palace coup and brought such teachings with him.  King Kertajaya was a Tantric Buddhist like his successor in 1268. 

Ancient Indian History and Civilization

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=8122411983

Sailendra Nath Sen - 1999 -

 Kritajaya, the last king of Kadiri, involved himself in a quarrel with the clergy ( 1222)..

Indonesian translation:   " In Pararaton,  Kertajaya ... by the end of his reign  stated ( to) the pastor (he) wanted to be worshiped Hindu and Buddhist . Certainly the desire was rejected, .

The pastors choose refuge in Ken Arok ,(who) claimed could only be defeated by Shiva . Hearing this, Ken Arok also took the title  for Shiva  and move led troops attacked Kadiri .

The war between Tumapel and Kadiri occurred near the village of Ganter in 1222. (Kertajaya) himself fled and hid ride to heaven." (dewalaya).

 (Nagarakretagama juga mengisahkan secara singkat berita kekalahan Kertajaya tersebut. Disebutkan bahwa Kertajaya melarikan diri dan bersembunyi dalam dewalaya ) .

देवालय

devAlaya

m.

residence of the gods

The Indianized States of South-East Asia

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=082480368X

George Cœdès - 1968 - ‎p 187

... waged a decisive battle at Ganter, the site of which is unidentified. Kritajaya fled and disappeared without a trace. 

"In the process, the Javanese became the master shipbuilders and mariners of Southeast Asia. During the 14th Century, at the height of the Majapahit Empire, they controlled the sea lanes throughout the Indonesian archipelago as well as to faraway India and China.. Kertanegara was an extraordinary figure, a scholar as well as a statesman, who belonged to the Tantric Bhairawa sect of Buddhism. In 1275 and again in 1291 he sent successful naval expeditions against Sriwijaya thus wresting control of the increasingly important maritime trade."_ S Daniels . Java.

 "The precise doctrinal contents of Kertanagara’s Tantric cult are unknown. In his lifetime and after his death, his supporters revered him as a Shiva-Buddha." ( Encyc Brit).

 "The pure practices of Vaishnavism, Saivism, and Tantric Buddhism only found their place mainly in aristocracy. By faith or by blood tie, the Javanese aristocrats and Brahmins were connected to their Vaishnava ancestors of India,"

". accomplishments of the vajra-sceptre and the use of mudras is found in active use at the present day, just as it is in Bali, far-removed though it be from the countries mentioned... According to the secret teachings of tantrism, to which both the Buddhist and Shiva priests of Bali were heirs, the hand gestures as well as certain position of the limbs, are related to the circulation in the body of a psychic energy called

 Kundalini or “the Serpent Fire.”  _  de Haulliville  2000, p209

"In the eleventh century, the Buddhist scholar Atiśa Dipankara Shrijnana (Bangla: অতীশ দীপঙ্কর শ্রীজ্ঞান) (982-1054 CE), who was an important catalyst of the revival of Tibetan Buddhism after its repression by Tibetan  King Langdarma (838-841 CE), studied in Srivijaya Indonesia.... Vajras are also found with Buddhists of South-east Asia, particularly Java, and with the Shingon Buddhists of Japan."

Southeast Asia: A Historical Encyclopedia, from Angkor Wat ...

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1576077705

Keat Gin Ooi - 2004 - ‎

. In East Java, elements of both Hinduism and Buddhism are found in statues that some believe to be portraits of local rulers. Both there and in Sumatra, there is evidence of Tantric Buddhism,

A ceremony for healing smallpox in Wiradjuri country west of Sydney resembles Tantraya as described here :

Rev. W. Watson's Journal from Apl 1st to June 30th 1835

"They have been collected from a distance of many miles in every direction to celebrate Waganna ‘‘a dance’’ to Baiami a being of considerable note among them. ..The Natives say that when Baiami gave the Gudthi ‘‘song’’ which they now chaunt to him, he gave them also wooden gods which after the first celebration of the Waganna they burnt. He also commanded them to use small Twigs about 9 inches in length which they were to beat against each other in the Waganna and then to burn them. These Twigs are named Mudthír from Mudthirra which signifies repeated beating or, thrashing."

--

Here are some verbal comparisons to the italic words . 

waganna.

Wacana

wacana.ui.ac.id/

Wacana is a Journal of the Humanities of Indonesia,

 published by Faculty of Humanities, University of Indonesia.

Malay wacan "discourse"

Old Java language :  wacana  (Sanskrit) "speech, words; sound, voice; teaching".
 wacanamaṅgala (Skt) "auspicious (benedictory) words".

Skr.  वचन vacana "injunction of a teacher".

gudthi.

Old Java  : guḍuh 

 aguḍuhan "making a confused noise, tumultuous, in an uproar".

The Second Dalai Lama: His Life and Teachings - Page 21

https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=155939949X

Glenn H. Mullin - 2005 - ‎

.. Known as gatha, these traditional verses were not only attributed to the Buddha but also to many of his direct disciples. ... Much of the tantric literature attributed to the Buddha is also expressed in verse, known as vajra gita, or "diamond songs".

    The Theragatha (-gāthā), often translated as Verses of the Elder Monks (Pāli: thera elder (masculine) + gatha verse), is a Buddhist scripture, a collection of short poems supposedly recited by early members of the Buddhist sangha.

mudthirra.

 Old Java. mudra (Skt mudrā) particular position of the fingers (with sacred function and meaning; with supernatural efficacy); seal, signet ring. See also bodhyagri-, kāma-, rāja-, sarwa-. 

 mudrābandhana (Skt) the putting (intertwining) of the fingers in mudra-position 

 (Dirranbandi?)


mudrākāra  (Skt) with the appearance of (represented as) making a mudra 

 mudrārcana (Skt) worship with mudras 

 mudrawidhi  (Skt) prescribed performance of mudras 

मुद्रा mudra "seal or any instrument for sealing or stamping".

"The phurba appear in different rituals concerning divination and healing. In the middle of

 these rituals “the jhankri takes hold of his ritual dagger and start to dance furiously directing

 the phurba towards all the places where an evil presence could be lodged. To heal his patient

 he vigorously touches the part of the body where he is suffering with the triangular blade of

 his wooden knife. This is adorned with snakes - symbols of fecundity and powerful telluric

 forces - being fought by an eagle, ally of the divine forces of heaven."_ Kovacs. 2nd article in :

the phurba and a hypothesis on its origins - Le Toit du monde

http://www.letoitdumonde.net/index.php/component/.../publication/5-phurbaphurba  : 

2nd article .Kovacs.

-

king John of Welch

trance state.

[john welch]

It appears that the end of the previous post was omitted. If so , here it is:

[John Pickard]

Gee John, I didn’t notice. I wonder why? I certainly wasn’t in a trance, so most likely I just missed it the deluge.

 

Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.p...@bigpond.com

 

From: 'john welch' via OzArch

Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 9:14 AM

To: Ozarch

Subject: {OzArch} the impossible skull

 

[john welch]

" I certainly wasn’t in a trance, so most likely I just missed it the deluge.

 Cheers, John Pickard"

Probably the south India Church at Goa influenced the Matsya Purana text , known in Indonesia. " In 53 A.D. , the disciple of Jesus Christ, St.Thomas came to India In 63A.D., he built a Church for St.Mary at Manikramam in Thiruvithancodu."

" Other scholars, such as Pandurang Vaman Kane, place the earliest version of the

 (Matsya) text to between c. 200–500 CE".

It describes Vishnu the giant fish-man telling Manu about a flood. Manu takes 7 wise men and seeds in a boat to re-generate life and ties the fish to the boat, located in Tamil Nadu. The Biblical flood has Noah with 7 people and animals .

Pundu the giant fish-man caused the Murray-Darling rivers to be created when the hero on a raft chased the fish which was speared and cut up to form new species.  The fish symbol was used by Pandya dynasty in Tamil Nadu for over 1000 years .. "The compass is mentioned in fourth-century AD Tamil nautical books; moreover, its early name of

 macchayantra (fish machine) .. In its Indian form, the wet compass often consisted of a fish-shaped magnet, float in a bowl filled with oil."  Indonesian pandom is "ship compass", pandu "guide" and pandega "fishing boat crew".  

Ibu Pertiwi (English: Mother Prithvi or Mother Earth) is a national personification of Indonesia,.
Prthu chases the goddess earth, from an illustrated manuscript of the Bhagavata Purana Indian, Pahari, about 1740 Attributed to: Manaku, Indian, about 1700–1760 "

Prithu chasing Prithvi, who is in the form of a cow. His chariot has a fish as the pole between the 2 horses, which seems to show he is Visnu Matsya the fish..

Indonesian depiction of Prithvi in ancient regal attire as Ibu Pertiwi at the Indonesian National Monument."Jadi pandu ibuku" ("Become the scout/guide for my mother") in the national song is a reference to Ibu Pertiwi as the mother of Indonesian people.

"In some parts of Indonesia people use the points of the compass in everyday life to orient themselves and indicate direction. This is especially the case in the Javanese heartland around Yogyakarta and Solo in the centre of the island of Java.. If you are sitting in a bus , don’t be surprised if they say something like Permisi, bisa pindah ke timur sedikit? (Excuse me, could you move east a little?). When someone really “loses the plot”, behaving inappropriately or unpredictably, Javanese say that the person tidak mengerti utara selatan (doesn’t know where north or south is)."

Ngurunderi who caught the giant fish in South Australia is in Old Javanese nagarene diri "country's outstanding ruler" .  All fisherman now say their fish was a giant as a rule.

J 

fish story

Upper Darling river without a paddle

[Cosmos Coroneos]

Speaking of loan words and their trajectory many years ago when working off Coburg Peninsula with an Elder and it was getting close to beer o’clock.  I said ‘Time to pack up what do you think?’ To which he replied “Yes, Halas!”  I did a double take cause I understood the word to mean ‘stop’ or ‘its over’ in Arabic.  He said it means something equating to ‘finish’ and that the word came with the Macassans.  

From: 'john welch' via OzArch <oza...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: <oza...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 25 January 2017 9:59 am
To: Ozarch <oza...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {OzArch} the impossible skull

[john welch]

Hi Cosmos, 

Yes about 200-300 loan words are known in north Australia due to around 3 centuries of annual visits by numerous boats with several crew-men.  It appears to me that about 100 loan words are in southern Australia from maybe 1 boat with a king , his relatives and priests and a couple of Indonesian magic keris swords.

The skull-fracture weapon has been compared in the Cambridge article with a Samburu iron sword.  "Of the weapons tested, the frontal wound observed in Kaakutja most closely resembles that produced by an African ‘Samburu’ sword.  This can create an irregular pattern of modification to bone, including flaking, but is not heavy enough to cause extensive fracturing."

Sharp hardwood is not as hard and sharp as steel blades which have problems when blunt. So the sharpness is the issue and if wood could cut bone or meat then we'd use wood carving knives .  The thickness needed for wood blades is in effect a bluntness when it adds pressure on the bone , and so blocks the cutting effect.

- 

"Was the ( Toorale) skeleton a child?  I don’t think even a very sharp hardwood blade could cut through an adult outer cortex of bone...  That is likely especially if the chisel is not sharp."

Orthopaedic & Spine Surgeon

Director Orthopaedic Surgery, The Alfred
Adjunct Clinical Associate Professor, Monash University.

-

"Axes used in Woodchopping competitions .  . Competitors believe that the sharpening of the axe is an important skill and grinding is an indispensable part of their preparation.  The exact grind depends on whether the wood to be cut is hard or soft.  ."

-

Mr John

bush carpenter

up a gum tree

[john welch]

Dr L Hercus was mentioned in connection with Lake Eyre , the  Arabana language and its lack of Sanskrit .   Sanskrit-Javanese is not Sanskrit and the Old Javanese dictionary went on-line when Dr Hercus, a Linguist of South Australian languages, was 85 .There is no ANU biography that connects her with medieval Javanese Hindu-Buddhist temple-architecture and language ( why would there be?) and Toorale skull was published and dated when she was 90 which was 2 years after her work on Arabana..  The Archaeology thesis against a wooden sword appeared 3 years after so she had no reason to consider it.  So there is no reason to claim her absence of Linguistic comment is negative comment about Javanese language loan-words.

However , she published that Arabana language  th  derives from earlier  t , as shown in compound words with earlier  t , the normal t in the nearby Wangkangurru language.  So the  1903 form ,  tjantji wanpata  is now  thantyi wanparda.  As tjantji / thantyi means "grandfather, grandchild" then the original  tjantji may be formed from Old Javanese tantu   ( from Skt ; "anyone propagating his family in regular succession; any continuity ") from 13th century.

Then the name of Lake Eyre as Kati Thanda "meeting place of bosses" in its earlier form of Kati

Tanda likewise resembles Old Javanese tanda :  " a category of dignitaries or officials., . Pigeaud renders it with ``headman''."

It's not reasonable to expect a Sanskrit speaker to recognise thanda ( not a Skr word) or Javanese

tanda in Kati Thanda . .

Sanskrit 

तन्दते { तन्द् }

tandate { tand }

become relaxed

Its kadimarkara crocodile , pillars and water springs suggest Lake Eyre is the biggest Hindu-Buddhist temple,

Hercus, L 2013, 'Archaisms in place names in Arabana-Wangkangurru country', in Robert Mailhammer (ed.), Lexical and Structural Etymology: Beyond Word Histories, Walter de Gruyter, Boston/Berlin, pp. 313-322.

jo 

job

NSW

[john welch]

Tindale Tribes - Arabana - South Australian Museum
archives.samuseum.sa.gov.au/tindaletribes/arabana.htm
"While Arabana today is the accepted term, I was informed by O. Siebert that Ngarabana is a better
 name; "

Indonesian  doa bagi means  " for witnessing, prayer" and negara bahana is "State choir"

DOA BAGI NEGARA - BAHANA  -

" witnessing sound choir "." prayer for state noise".

Bahana students choir, Jayapura west Papua.

Nagara Bana Ensemble Of The Temple Of Gorakhnath At Gorkha ...

Listen to Nagara Bana Ensemble Of The Temple Of Gorakhnath .

Jatakeshwara temple (nagara bana) is located in Shiruru, Karnataka south India.

This is consistent with the ngurungaeta song-makers of Melbourne.

"Minister of Education and Culture (Education) Muhadjir Effendy told hundreds of members of Gita Bahana Nusantara in 2016 after seeing their performances . Gita Bahana Nusantara has been established since 2003 and continuously performed every year. It consists of choir and orchestra."

Marching Band Gita Sambadha Nagara ... "song connected with country".

Gita Nagari: Prabhupada's Vision for an Ideal Life | Back to Godhead

Geeta Nagari will therefore be the main preaching centre of the Supreme Authority of Sree Krishna

 the Personality of Godhead. 

Javanese negarane "country" . "The construction with -nya originally was a feature of 

Bazaar Malay, where it probably evolved  through influence of Javanese -né ."

Java in the 14th Century: A Study in Cultural History - Page 314
Theodore G.Th. Pigeaud - 2013 - ‎
Kern found the explanation of the Skt. word gitada  with the meaning: a maker of songs, a vernacular poet. In Old Javanese gita  referring to songs in Javanese metres.

J Welch
whistling in the dark
song line

[john welch]

Maths is a nuisance and gives unfortunate results. So doubling an explosive charge will give the cube root in expanded blast distance, or 1 1/5 ( which is 1/10 either side). You need 8 times the charge to double the blast distance. This is unfortunate for big nukes.  A material's resistance to impact varies by about the square of velocity and is linear with impact area.  So doubling the speed of a sword will make 4 times the resistance in bone and so doubling the penetration requires 4 times the speed - which causes 16 times resistance .  A blunt sword with twice the sharp-edge area takes twice the force to cut , likewise with the area of total blade front-thickness . Practically, the only way to  increase force is speed as un-cooperative victims won't let you slowly push the blade with 2 hands while grunting and sweating .

BROKEN BONES: Anthropological Analysis of Blunt Force Trauma (2nd Ed.)

By Vicki L. Wedel, Alison Galloway   p134

.."static loading forces are dissipated with resistance calculated to be half  that withstood in dynamic conditions."

The oblique cut to Toorale skull using military-grade hardwood needed a small nuclear accelerator which ought to have blown the poor man's head about 2 camp-sites down the Darling river.

". It was also clearly illustrated that the radial impact causes substantially higher stresses in the skull with an associated higher risk of skull fractures, .

It is obvious that a purely radial impact produce higher contact forces and larger linear accelerations increasing the stresses in the skull bone which predict the risk of skull fractures ."

Why Most Traumatic Brain Injuries are Not Caused by Linear ... - NCBI

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › NCBI › Literature › PubMed Central (PMC)

by S Kleiven - ‎2013 - ‎

John Headache

scratching

bone yard