Thanks Gary,
This is all MOST interesting.
But re the bit "The minister is not satisfied it is a significant archaeological area" where on earth does that come from? Because my own finding/conclusion on the matter has to date been that the Minister knew absolutely nothing (or else was just not looking at what he is sent about it all?).
And re moles, unfortunately I would not know a mole from a wombat.
However, you will like this .. I was yesterday contacted (at last) by RandyKitty.
Cheers,
John Byrnes
(Sydney geologist)
----- Original Message -----From:oza...@googlegroups.comTo:"OzArch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>Cc:Sent:Fri, 28 Jul 2017 19:18:04 -0700 (PDT)Subject:{OzArch} 24000 aboriginal artefacts at Randwick
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from Radio 2ser Breakfast :6:00am 20th Mar 2017 http://2ser.com/one-year-whats-happened-randwick-aboriginal-artifact-find/
"Is Aboriginal Heritage being recognised correctly? April last year, on the corner of Alison Road and Doncaster Avenue Randwick, roughly 24,000 indigenous artefacts were discovered on the construction Sydney’s Light Rail. Nic was joined with Greens MP David Shoebridge and CEO of Tocomwall Scott Franks from the Wonnarua Nation to discuss what has happened to the discovery and and how decisions on Aboriginal Heritage sites are made."
A few interesting comments:Does anyone on this list have a mole in GML who knows the status of th ematerial - ie. have they worked out if it is all artefactual?
- The artefacts are under a care and control permit held by GML and locked away in their offices.
- Axiona declined access to the Aboriginal community group Tocomwall.
- No other artefacts sites have been found along the Light Rail works.
- The minister is not satisfied it is a significant archaeological area.
- The right to say what happens to Aboriginal Heritage is disputed by competing Aboriginal organisations: "most of these people wouldn't know a stone axe if they were hit in the side of the head with it"
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******************************************************
Richard Wright
42A Llewellyn Street
Oatley
NSW 2223
Australia
Phone: 0417292582
*******************************************************
Hello Richard,
Some opinions were offered .. but there appeared to be zero interest apparent in having such opinions .. as best I could judge.
An interesting thing to spring up as an aside from all the discussion this generated (e.g. like about other places with thousands of artefacts around Sydney) was for me that Aboriginal (Darug) elder .. 'uncle' Colin ... told me that many years ago just a little bit (from his verbal description) southwest of Camellia railway station he had seen what must have been "hundreds if not thousands" of artefacts/flakes over a very small area, in which there were at least two patches where the "artefacts were so dense as to be almost touching".
Knowing that interesting bit of info, at least four of us have (separately) on different occasions now poked all around there ... and found absolutely zilch of interest (a few fragments of porcelain maybe ... and one of us did find a bit of possible "artefact" but ... oops, it had concrete adhering to the back or it, so was discounted).
That said, the spot is nonetheless still somewhat unusual/curious. There is a small gentle amphitheatre depression on the east side of James Ruse Drive between Grand Avenue and Grand Avenue North which I think might be remnant of a small cliff-eroded-bend along former course of Clay Cliff Creek (which has since been shortened and put in canal or pipes). If so, one might perhaps "imagine" a camping area there being favourable? Over my years of driving along James Ruse Drive I think I have seen all that area excavated slightly next to the road and re-filled to make a flat parking area.
So this just remained/remains another little mystery. But it may be noted that Grand Avenue N was the route of the old tramway that ran between Parramatta and a wharf near Duck River Mouth (because steamers had to put passengers off there - they could not get all the way up to Parramatta - without dredging). A new Light Rail from Parramatta to Strathfield is planned to re-occupy the same route.
So could the dense concentration of maybe thousands of small angular whitish fragments seen there have been the base of former tramway ballast pile I have wondered. If so it has to be 'white metal' (metamorphosed sandstone) and I have no knowledge of what that Parramatta tramway actually did use.
The area has been subject of considerable change .. with much more coming (highrise).
The ABC's Utopia sounds like good watching, but I have never seen it. According to a nice glossy pamphlet put out by Parramatta Council, the whole of the Camellia/Rose Hill or Parra/Duck Rivers peninsula (once a beloved spot for oil refining and manufacturing) will become a new Billions dollar utopia too .. with thousand of new residents able to go in there, and at silverwater etc. along the Parramatta to Strathfield Light Rail route --- a significant part of the Government's overall mega plan of where to put expanding population I believe.
Cheers, John
----- Original Message -----From:oza...@googlegroups.comTo:
<oza...@googlegroups.com>Cc:Sent:Sat, 29 Jul 2017 12:47:06 +1000Subject:Re: {OzArch} 24000 aboriginal artefacts at Randwick
I think you will find that GML are constrained by their contract. Knowing some of those who work at GML I am sure that they are more than capable of determining what is an Aboriginal object. However to ask their staff to breach contracts is in my view a little irresponsible.
Cheers
Dr Iain Stuart
JCIS Consultants
P.O. Box 2397
Burwood North
NSW 2134
Australia
(02) 97010191
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******************************************************
Richard Wright
42A Llewellyn Street
Oatley
NSW 2223
Australia
Phone: 0417292582
*******************************************************
Regards,
Dr Shaun Canning
Managing Director & Principal Heritage Advisor
0400 204 536 shaun....@achm.com.au
Australian Cultural Heritage Management
Brisbane | Melbourne | Sydney
Find me at LinkedIn
If the contract includes staying silent, even if the stones turn out to be railway ballast, then this too would be a little irresponsible.
I’ve never had a contract that prevented consultation with other experts on technical matters, even where there were political confidentially issues.
In fact I’ve regularly contacted people, mostly other consultants, and said something like: You’ve worked in this region or on this material before, can you have a look at these pictures / items and tell me what you think? Or, did you come across any similar sites, artefacts in your survey? In one case it turned out that the localised site I’d recorded was at one end of a linear (ca 1km) site complex where someone else had recorded the other end. I’ve had a similar experience with historic sites/ heritage buildings, where feedback from consultants who’ve done previous work in that area has resolved questions. I’ve also seen a few consulting reports where silly errors were made that could have been avoided by a simple email to check (in some cases, I had been asked to review the report).
How common is it for contracts to prevent normal professional communication? Surely there’s difference between professional checking and breaking confidentiality?
Jeannette
Hello,
Re "the specific naming criteria that the GNB requires for the naming of light rail stops" I wasn't aware that the GNB did have any such specific criteria.
Maybe this is something new with them?
I pretty thoroughly tried to look into GNB specific criteria back when Kiama Council seemed to be strongly trying to get permission to apply a name "Thunda" (cf. thunder) across Bombo Quarry (some think Bombo might be Aboriginal for thunder?). It seemed that this was happening because one of the Councillors with marketing experience thought Thunda (the name for a cartoon logo which he had invented to go on walking track posts), and which looked remarkably like the American cartoon character Sponge Bob Short Pants, could have the tourists flocking there in even greater numbers than now.
Thankfully, the Sponge Bob Short Pants lookalike idea faded into obscurity down there. But the full story on just exactly what did the GNB say was never revealed.
June 2017 – update
Around 32,000 stone items were discovered in 2016 at the Randwick Stabling Yard. A Plan of Management has been developed, in conjunction with the four Registered Aboriginal Parties to identify the composition and origin, suitably store and protect the items, and establish the best way to recognise and commemorate this important find.
This Plan of Management also outlines the additional research required, and suggests measures to be implemented to mitigate impacts. It considers cultural mapping to learn more about the materials and their origin, interpretation displays to increase community understanding of Randwick’s rich local Aboriginal history and examines the potential to acknowledge its importance through educational material for local schools and universities.
Under the guidelines established, the stone items are currently being stored with the Heritage Consultants where chemical analysis is being used to accurately determine their composition and origin.
We will continue to work with the Aboriginal groups and the Office of Environment and Heritage to ensure the best outcome for this find and for any others as construction continues along the 12-kilometre light rail route.
Is chemical analysis the first thing you’d do to identify the type of rock?
You could ask a geologist (or get a couple of opinions) who would recognise the general rock type (igneous, metamorphic, sedimentary) and, if familiar with Sydney geology, might immediately recognise any likely sources.
You could check the records to find out where road gravel was quarried in the past, and compare samples. You could compare it to Aboriginal artefacts in the AM, to see if there were any of the same rock type. You could make some thin sections and look at structure. None of those things immediately sound like ‘chemical analysis’.
Or you could send a picture to your friendly rock advisors in Ohio: http://geosurvey.ohiodnr.gov/major-topics/rock-identification.
My guess is that the reason for the secrecy is that they know very well that these are not artefacts, but because of the embarrassment over the initial media reports, they want unarguable proof of the source of the rocks from a road gravel quarry before they say anything else publicly.
Jeannette
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vines
Sent: Saturday, 29 July 2017 5:32 PM
To: OzArch
Subject: {OzArch} Re: 24000 aboriginal artefacts at Randwick
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Hello,
Well this is certainly some advance .. from 20 to 22 to 24 and now 32 thousand of them.
But re "where chemical analysis is being used to accurately determine their composition and origin" how will that work exactly?
it will be interesting if it did. But rocks as light coloured as these looked on TV are often highly siliceous and without a staggering array of major elements, or highly diagnostic trace elements.
Perhaps by chemical analysis they mean XRF and that certainly won't do any harm.
Cheers,
John
~~~
----- Original Message -----From:oza...@googlegroups.comTo:"OzArch" <oza...@googlegroups.com>Cc:Sent:
Sat, 29 Jul 2017 00:31:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:{OzArch} Re: 24000 aboriginal artefacts at Randwick
From: CBD Coordination <CBDCoor...@transport.nsw.gov.au>Date: 3 August 2017 10:40:49 AM AESTSubject: Your enquiry about the Aboriginal artefactsDear Mr VinesThank you for your interest in the Aboriginal artefacts found at the Randwick stabling yard site.We understand and appreciate your interest in artefacts found along the light rail alignment. All identified artefacts from the site were salvaged and have been temporarily stored in a secure location.Long-term management of the materials will be in consultation with the relevant aboriginal groups. Transport for NSW is committed to appropriate consultation with all relevant parties, when the analysis is complete.Transport for NSW values our Aboriginal heritage and we continue to investigate, in accordance with the relevant management plans, a strategy to manage the artefacts. We will continue working with the Aboriginal representatives to ensure the best outcome, not only for this find, but for any other heritage that may be encountered as construction continues.I am advised that the plan of management is not publicly available, and public access to the artefacts is not permitted at this time.We appreciate your patience with this matter and understand any concern about the time needed to report on the items that were found. You may be assured that publication of the report will be well publicised.Kind regardsBrian ConnollyTransport for NSWCBD Coordination Office
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I agree with Richard. All because there is rumour that 20,000 pieces of stone have been found, doesn’t mean they are all flaked stone. Diagnostic analysis in the lab is a necessary stage.
The story that this project has some level of confidentiality that other projects don’t is not accurate. The consultancy firm isn’t out there paying for the work to be done. They have a client who is paying, who in the Randwick Stabling Yard case happens to be Transport NSW, an official government body. The client has a right to ask for the analysis of the material to completed, as well as consultation with the relevant Aboriginal groups, before the material is made public. This seems reasonable. It also seems to me that Transport NSW is doing the right thing. They have applied for the necessary permits (presumably for European heritage as well as Aboriginal archaeology), contracting a firm to make the applications as well as to monitor the works, and is now answering questions about the process. The approvals from the Dept of Environment and Heritage certainly would require a report on the project to be written and certainly would not countenance the project to be carried out in secrecy or not adequately reported on.
The desire of persons to know what has been found is natural but sometimes processing of material and consultation takes longer than they would desire. In the end no consultancy firm would enter into an agreement that forbade them from disclosing an important find from the local Aboriginal groups or from writing a final report. It would be impossible to obtain a permit to undertake this sort of project with such conditions, especially forbidding consultation with the local Aboriginal Land Council. Anyway, as could be expected, word of some finds, if possibly quite inaccurate, seems to have gotten out.
Tony Lowe
Casey & Lowe Pty Ltd
T: (02) 9568 5375
M: 0409 988 846
From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Wright
Sent: Friday, 4 August 2017 7:52 AM
To: oza...@googlegroups.com
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