Bunkers

[Iain Stuart]

I think we are missing some points.

 

The Heritage Act runs in parallel with the  Environmental  Planning Act and a separate permit is required for the disturbance of relics.

 

Under the Port Stephens LEP Section 5.10.2 c it is arguable that a development application would be required  and under Section 5.10.7 Council is required to notify the Heritage Council  of development on a heritage items and to take into account the comments of the Heritage Council.

 

These are standard provisions in most if not all LEP’s.

 

However is an underground bunker a relic or a work?

 

As the definition in the LEP is essentially the same as in the Heritage Act. – I quote from the 2009 Archaeological Assessment Guidelines “ Relevant case law and the general principles of statutory interpretation strongly indicate that a ‘relic’ is properly regarded as an object or chattel. A relic can, in some circumstances, become part of the land and be regarded as a fixture (a chattel that becomes permanently affixed to land)”. Therefore a bunker is likely to be regarded as a work rather than a relic and therefore the provisions of the Heritage Act do not apply unless it can reasonable argued that there are relics involved.

 

My views on this split between work and relics are well known, it is totally illogical, as it results in things like a buried well (a work) only to be protected if it has relics in it. However that is the way the law is interpreted and it is really up to the archaeological community to work to sort this out (so don’t blame the staff in the Heritage Division). It seems not to be the case in Victoria.

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

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Australia

 

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Ia...@jcis.net.au

 

[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hi Ian,

 

I reckon you are right .. and they are regarding it as a work.

I doubt they referred this matter to NSW Heritage .. but I might be wrong.

Cheers,  John

 

 

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{OzArch} Bunkers

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[Jeannette Hope]

Iain

 

How does this definition of a relic as an object or a chattel, square with the wording in the Heritage Act of a relic being “any deposit, artefact, object or material evidence”?    The latter would seem to include soils, or other non-‘object’ materials.

 

Anyway wouldn’t an underground bunker fall into the category of building:  “a  part of a building, a structure or a part of a structure?

 

Jeannette

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[Tony Lowe]

Hi Jeanette, Ian, Jon (just being consistent with how people spell the main contributors’ names)),

 

I agree with Iain that the bunker isn’t a relic, rather a ‘work’, so it isn’t protected by the Heritage Act, unless it is listed as a Local heritage item, but it nevertheless it may contain relics which would be.  The definition of ‘relic’ used to include ‘older than 50 years’ to place them into some kind of context but that was removed some time ago.

 

If the bunker is located on Commonwealth lands then different legislation would apply however Council would know that.  If Council is giving permission for dig to occur, it is up to them, rather than the ‘archaeological community’ to be aware of and apply the correct legislation.

 

My concern is that the bunker might be an important, or rare, example of such WWII structures and that it may well contain relics.  The place should be subject to formal assessment prior to its disturbance and, depending on the results, relevant heritage approvals obtained prior to any disturbance of it.  It might be that it should be listed for other reasons such as its architectural merit (similar to the Sirius Building here in the Rocks!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony Lowe

Casey & Lowe Pty Ltd

T: (02) 9568 5375

M: 0409 988 846

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[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Thanks Tony,

It MAY be a heritage item .. of the "lets be vague" type like lets call half the West Australian Coast a heritage item or the entire Blue Mountains a heritage item.

Not quite so bad as that perhaps council does say this:

"""""

FLY POINT RESERVE

( Fly-Point-Reserve.jpg )

---

On the hunt for a secret WWII bunker at Nelson Bay

"""""

I guess I am a bit of a "Splitter" ... but I myself would endeavour to get more focussed on the facts there and try to break that great concoction of American military wonders, native flora and Aboriginal grave up into separate listed items.

However nobody can make Government do anything they don't want to do; so if that is the way Council wants to lump it all together then I'm sure it will stay that way for quite some time.

Cheers,

 

John

 

~~~

 

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RE: {OzArch} Bunkers

[zoharesque]

Coming late to this discussion of bunkers, but people may interested in Martin Wimmer's PhD on air raid shelters in Adelaide - abstract here:

https://www.australianarchaeologicalassociation.com.au/journal/gimme-shelter/

Alice

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 ______________________________________________________________
Dr Alice Gorman
T: @drspacejunk
M: 0428 450 418
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The Conversation: https://theconversation.com/profiles/alice-gorman-4234/articles
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[Neville Baker]

Ok, so this has piqued my interest. What is the case law distinguishing "work" from "relic". What is the definition of this thing called a "work".

Nev

[Iain Stuart]

Nev,

1) No case law as far as I know. Opinions are from the Crown Solicitor having been asked to provide answers to a number of questions around the definition of relics.

2) No definition of work is in the Heritage Act although it clearly separates out relics from works in its definitions.

The 2009 Archaeological Assessment Guidelines mention this distinction.

[Elspeth]

Speaking of bunkers - has anyone who has done work on Defence lands ever come across a simple square above-ground concrete masonry unit bunker built and used for training purposes? My find is a solid concrete box approximately 4x4m with a flat roof, a single doorway in one elevation and two half-unit slits at eye-level in each of the other three elevations. It was built within a training area far from any other infrastructure.

Cheers

Elspeth Mackenzie

Heritage Consultant

 

ERM

 

[Michael Lever]

Hi Elspeth,

I recall seeing bunkers like this reported at a site in Victoria that had previously been used as a military testing ground.

The bunkers were for observation of explosive detonation.

Pretty sure Professor Vines would have more info.

Cheers

Michael

[Iain Stuart]

I was thinking along the same lines – possibly hand grenade training?

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Ia...@jcis.net.au

 

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[Elspeth Mackenzie]

I suspect hand grenades and general assault training, maybe even flame-throwers. But I’m wondering if there are any other similar examples still around?

 

Cheers

Elspeth Mackenzie

Heritage Consultant

 

ERM

Level 4, 201 Leichhardt St │ Spring Hill │ QLD 4000

PO Box 1400 │ Spring Hill │ QLD 4004

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[GrahamK]

Folks

As a child in Whyalla, SA, mates and I used to go to Hummock Hill on the foreshore and visit an old bunker there. It was associated with two (I think) anti-aircraft gun emplacements form WW2. Here's a link to an amateur site that mentions them and has photo's of the reconstruction done by Whyalla Council and BHP.

http://www.ozatwar.com/locations/hummockhillbattery.htm

May not be of use as anything more than backstory but worth a look?

Sincerely

GrahamK

[Jeannette Hope]

This is the remains of the Wentworth bombing range observation bunker.  The photo is from google earth but is not in the right place (a lot of google earth photos in this area are up to 5km out of place).  I did work out where it really is some time back, but can’t locate the details at the moment.     

 

While only the foundations survive, there may be a photo of the standing bunker in the  Mildura museum of the No. 2 OTU  (Operational Training Unit)   which used the bombing range   in 1942.  I’ll check sometime when I’m in Mildura. 

 

As it happens,  last  weekend in Mildura I went to the 75^th anniversary commemoration of the unit (now OCU, conversion not training, because they ‘convert ‘ people with ordinary  pilots licences to fighter pilots. )   Attached is  my only successful photo of the fly-over by the OCU’s Hornets (they go really fast!) and one cornered on the ground.

 

Jeannette

 

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[GrahamK]

Wow

Can't top the Hornets! Is that a Spitfire up there in the fly-over photo? Fantastic.

GrahamK

[Jeannette Hope]

The smaller plane was a Boomerang.  The flyover was on Saturday, but the at the open day on Sunday at the airport, there were two Hornets.  I’m not sure what happened to the Boomerang on Sunday.

 

“A 2OCU F/A-18A Hornet aircraft will conduct a low and slow pass at approximately 150m (500 ft) over the city, followed by a single pass by a WWII vintage Boomerang fighter. The two jets will then join forces for a single pass to mark the end of the parade.”

 

‘A low and slow pass?’  They went so fast that they had been and gone before you heard the roar!

 

Jeannette

 

 

From: oza...@googlegroups.com [mailto:oza...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of GrahamK
Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2017 1:17 PM
To: OzArch
Subject: Re: {OzArch} Re: Bunkers

 

Wow

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[Anne Bickford]

Hi All,

I agree with Tony and Iain. I find the thing about  ‘work’ in the Act hard to understand. I think of the things I work on and sometimes excavate as ‘historic sites’. There are some v strange things in the press article. e.g. The man put several probes down and hit concrete. How does he know its concrete and not rock? 

The site, if its there, I consider a very significant historic site. Its a secret US WWII bunker. I don’t know of any others and no one else has mentioned one. Therefore I think it would be of State significance. You can’t go probing and fooling around with it. That is breaching the Act in my view and the proponents should apply for an excavation permit from the Heritage Council. This would require an Archaeological Assessment report and Excavation Permit Application as Tony says. In my view we are lucky to have such really good rigorous historic site legislation in NSW. This site should be approached professionally just as any other historic site. This is not to say that crazies will agree with the outcome.  Mike Pearson did a fab historical and survey analysis of the “Portugeuse ruins” at Bittangabee on the south coast and published a paper on it in the RAHS journal. It is the stone footings of an uncompleted building seen and written about by the great George Augustus Robinson. Nevertheless you still read and hear about these Portugeuse ruins. A lot of people prefer the more ‘exotic’ interpretation. 

Regards,

Anne Bickford

Anne Bickford

Director

Archaeology And Heritage Pty Ltd

PO Box 304 CAMPERDOWN 1450

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Mob: 0419 496872

email: ab...@bigpond.net.au

[Rick Bullers]

Hi Elspeth

I don't think it would be for hand-grenade training. When I did my army basic training at Kapooka (Wagga Wagga) back in the 80s we did hand grenade training from walk-in concrete bunkers, with above-ground walls and no roof. From (hazy) memory they were set in linear 'bays' with all trainees lobbing grenades over the wall (as I said, no roof), all down-range in the same direction. The bunker Elspeth speaks of may be used to observe the training but I don't recall there being one where I trained. The fact that this bunker was set far from other infrastructure (such as the 'grenade lobbing bays' I described) suggests that it would be more likely used for more observing larger ordnance. 

I later did live-firing in Leopard tanks on Puckapunyal range but don't recall seeing any such outposts at that time (or much later when we did the heritage assessment on Pucka range).

If you could let us all know which facility, we may be able to pinpoint the most likely use based on the known uses for that particular facility.

Cheers

Rick

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[Daniel Leahy]

Hi All,

Elspeth - Is this similar to the bunker you were talking about (see attached photo)?  I know it doesn't have an opening on each side, but this is on land that was used by the RAAF to store / detonate munitions during WWII, so presumably it had a similar function.

Jeannette - Thanks for the photo of the Wentworth bunker foundations.  The Operational Training Units (OTUs) were a common unit type in British Commonwealth air forces during WWII, and were used to further train those pilots who had done their basic flying training within the air force, on how to fly the aircraft types being used operationally by the front line units.  The RAAF operated a total of 8 OTUs during the war.  No. 2 OTU was the first of the RAAF's fighter OTUs, initially based at Port Pirie before moving to Mildura, and training pilots how to fly the Kittyhawk, Spitfire, Boomerang, and Wirraway, before being posted to the operational Squadrons.  Today, No. 2 OCU does the same sort of thing at Williamtown - it converts those who have done their fast jet training to flying the F/A-18 Hornet.

In regards to the flying display, from what I understand, poor weather may have prevented further flyovers on Sunday - "unfortunately the inclement weather prevented the scheduled P-40 Kittyhawk from Wangaratta and the Wirraway from Temora to take part in today’s display".

Regards,

Daniel Leahy

E: Daniel....@outlook.com

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From: oza...@googlegroups.com <oza...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Jeannette Hope <riverj...@iinet.net.au>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2017 1:29 PM

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Subject: RE: {OzArch} Re: Bunkers

 

The smaller plane was a Boomerang.  The flyover was on Saturday, but the at the open day on Sunday at the airport, there were two Hornets.  I’m not sure what happened to the Boomerang on Sunday.

[Cosmos Coroneos]

Ditto to Rick.  That’s my experience too.  Also observing exploding grenades was a no-no.  When I tried a Warrant Officer screamed something like “:”@#$% next time you @^&*#^ do that I’ll ^*^*#@ stick my feet in your mouth and stand at ease! ^$^%$….”  From what you are describing it could be an artillery observation post or pill box. 

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Date: Wednesday, 12 April 2017 7:37 pm
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Subject: Re: {OzArch} Re: Bunkers

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[Tony Lowe]

 

Hi Cos,

 

Your post was corrupted and alot was replaced by symbols and so I didn’t get the full gist of what the WO said to you.  Any chance you could send it through again?!

 

Thanks,

Tony

 

Tony Lowe

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[john...@ozemail.com.au]

 

Hello Tony,

I have a dictionary of all that .. could look up.

It's special code, has a name .. but that is illegible too.

Cheers, John

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Hi Cos,

[Elspeth Mackenzie]

I doubt my bunker would have been used to store or detonate munitions as it has vertical walls and a flat floor and roof as well as the door and sight-holes in each wall. It is far more likely to be an observation post or used for basic general assault training.

 

Exactly what it would have been observing is still a bit of a mystery as there has only ever been a small cleared area on the ‘observation’ side of the structure and the surroundings are otherwise heavily vegetated.

 

Thanks for the tips on hand-grenade training, it does sound unlikely this sort of structure would be used for that purpose.

 

Cheers

Elspeth Mackenzie

Heritage Consultant

 

ERM

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