Noob advice on hardware…

[Viktor Hedefalk]

Hi,

I'm just learning about this project and I'm super stoked about it! 

Noob alert deluxe here… I really want to start building a machine but I might need to hold a bit until I have room for it. But I really want to start making a plan for the build though so I'm asking a bit of advice on where to start. I'm a bit confused on the hardware aspect. I first started looking into the reference build but it seems it might be a tiny bit outdated? The Teton one over at hackaday seems to be referenced from here a couple of times, is this the way to go for a beginner? My inputs:

* I'm not afraid about tinkering and putting a lot of work into it, it's mostly the issue of sourcing parts and get started that feels overwhelming. I'm used to sourcing parts from China (for things like 3-printers and electronics projects

) and sometimes I have realized I'm missing something and have to wait another 30-60 days for the next step. So I really want a good plan on the whole sourcing parts thing.

* I have a couple of 3d-printers and have PLA and PETG pretty nicely tuned in so printing parts should be fine. Not really up for ABS currently though.

* I live in Stockholm, Sweden - tips on local T-profile source highly appreciated.

If I keep feeling that the issue of designing my own machine and sourcing parts turn out to be too overwhelming, is the LitePlacer a good starting option even if I want to expand on it with new features of OpenPNP? Or is there too much lockin? I'm definitely looking into using OpenPNP and not Juha's software but a thought through hardware kit is really tempting.

Thanks,

Viktor

[Jason von Nieda]

I'll let others help with the majority of your questions, but I will point out that a good place to start for guidance is: https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/FAQ#what-should-i-build

Jason

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[Viktor Hedefalk]

Great, thanks!

[Viktor Hedefalk]

Hi again,

Sorry if many of these questions have been answered before, I'm trying my best to search before asking.

For controller board I see Smoothieboard is recommended. Would this Azteg one work fine?

https://www.aliexpress.com/premium/Azteeg-X5.html?d=y&origin=y&blanktest=0&tc=ppc&initiative_id=SB_20180127111846&isViewCP=y&catId=0

I know very little about this yet, but I've seen a few reviews about different stepper drivers and really like the possibility to be able to switch out for these cool silent ones later. A pretty silent pnp machine would be awesome. a4988 or dvr8825 is ok to start with?

Is a plain mega 2560 with ramps an option or is that just not powerful enough? They seem to be ridicoulousy cheap now: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mega-2560-R3-1pc-RAMPS-1-4-control-panel-5pcs-DRV8825-or-A4988-Stepper-Motor-Drive/32849255494.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.1.17ee0924mvBit3&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10068_10344_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10307_10615_10301_10303_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_441_10624_442_10623_10622_10621_10620_10142,searchweb201603_28,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&algo_expid=02fb8a7a-e48d-4ecc-8e85-d3c29f3f6858-0&algo_pvid=02fb8a7a-e48d-4ecc-8e85-d3c29f3f6858&priceBeautifyAB=2

As a follow-up on the sound issue, this diapraghm vacuum source says <60dB, that's still quite a lot isn't it?

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/599/Diaphragm+pump+4+desktop+PNP+Machine

There's ton's of videos on youtube where people convert refrigerator/freezer pumps to make air compressors - I actually have one of those for airbrushing myself, it's really dead silent. I think it would work just fine as a vacuum source too since those compressors simply are pumps with one inlet and one outlet. Have anyone tried one of those or is this a non-issue? Are there other simpler/cheaper silent solutions?

For controller hardware running openPNP, I really would want a desigated station for this has I wouldn't tie up my laptop. The only thing I currently have lying around is an old Mac Mini, would that be enough? Java Swing ui, could be rather heavy?

Would these rails work, trying to keep budget down:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Axk-12mm-Mgn12-320-400-500-600-Mm-Linear-Rail-Way-Carriage-Guide-With-Mgn12c-Or/32833534879.html?spm=2114.search0204.3.13.7e2c4e46YFV4di&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_4_10065_10068_10344_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10307_10615_10301_10303_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_441_10624_442_10623_10622_10621_10620_10142,searchweb201603_28,ppcSwitch_5_ppcChannel&algo_expid=5e43e72b-982a-4d1d-b352-aed74e58aac8-2&algo_pvid=5e43e72b-982a-4d1d-b352-aed74e58aac8&priceBeautifyAB=2

I'm thinking about 500mm or 600mm rails. Anthony's build was for 500mm rails, correct? What's the feel on this, is more space a good idea?

Thanks,

Viktor

[Marek T.]

Hi Viktor,

I think that everybody here will help you with pleasure if only feel that you did all your best to find the answers on yourself on the group.
All your questions have been raised here many times and answers are ready only needed to be found.

However:
AT-Mega is too weak processor for this project in my oppinion. Processor used in Azteeg is minimum that acceptable.
Makerbase 1.3 is using the same processor like Smoothie, RAMP 1.4 is ATmega.

My advise is better don't buy Chinese clones but original Smoothieboard. Really in the total cost the difference US$40 is nothing. The reason why is support, for Smoothie you will get many answers and reasonable help from here and from Smoothieboard community. If you go with Azteeg to Smoothie group for help you will get kind answer to get off and "ask Chinese manufacturer".  Despite the Azteeg is almost 100% copy of Smoothie there are some small differencies between them (some outputs missing like ADC, some pinology a bit different etc etc). So they are not 100% compatible about hardware and settings.
Clones are good for later, when you know everything how to use the motion controllers like that.

UI Java is heavy. You really need quite strong computer mainly for cameras vision support. I have A8/3.4GHz/8GB - and it's really not too much.
I have no idea how it is with MACs, probably Jason may tell you it reasonable.

brgds
Marek

[Eagle Media]

Hello Viktor,

You better listen to Marek T.

Dont buy any hardware from unknow suppliers.
This incudes seller on aliexpress and co.

You will get huge problems with the quality of the hardware you order.
With both: Electronics and Mechanical parts.

I ordered some parts from Ali and test them in the lab.
The quality is horribly low and its surelly below of any european or us supplier.
For parts they meets our quality standards you must pay the same in china like in europe.

@Marek Do You know any supplier from China for Linear Rails they can give warranty of the quality?

Regards,
Mav

[Marek T.]

No I don't have that contacts. Maybe Robotdigg? Even if they are maybe not the cheapest but offers some kind warranty of tested quality...

[Peter Betz]

On Sunday, January 28, 2018 at 12:38:39 PM UTC-8, Marek T. wrote:

No I don't have that contacts. Maybe Robotdigg? Even if they are maybe not the cheapest but offers some kind warranty of tested quality...

I've started using robotdigg rails for the pick and place heads I sell because HIWIN prices have soared recently (just the two genuine rails now cost almost as much as the complete head). I asked him (robotdigg/ Derek) if his green ones were hiwin and he said likely not, and he pointed me towards a line of rails he has that he guaranteed (to me anyways, I buy a decent amount of them). They are pretty ugly feeling out of the bag until you lube them, then they seem great. That is why I mount the rails on the head plate still even though I don't sell the heads assembled anymore. To lube and check for play. I've only found one rail with play. They state 0.001" precision on that page. I don't think you will find any other non-genuine (clone) rail with any spec that is written down.

This is the series (440C SUS), I think they are laser engraved "robotdigg"... https://www.robotdigg.com/product/766/Quality-440C-SUS-MGN12-linear-rail-with-carriage

To be clear I haven't tried their bigger rails, like the one I linked. I would be reluctant to not spend the money for genuine ones for the main axis rails. I have only used their miniature ones of the same series. I do intend on designing a new leadshine encoded machine here shortly, for the price maybe I could add a 12mm rail to my next order to test it.

I also agree about buying a genuine smoothie.

Sorry I wandered on and off topic there!

Peter Betz
www.BETZtechnik.ca

[Viktor Hedefalk]

Thanks all for info!

A follow-up question:

I really want to start with the hardware pretty soon without spending too much effort in info-digging. Want to step away from the computer and use a screwdriver basically. Therefore I would like to postpone the MCU selection a bit. So, I'm asking, if I were to use a ramps based thing temporarily, would that work but just be slow in motion?

I'm trying to understand if there's something in this project that _needs_ the power of arm 32-bit or if its "only" the matter of motion speed. Reason is I have had great success with ramps or mks1.3 for reprap style 3d printers and I'm more familiar with this so figure I could use it as a temporary thing when experimenting with hardware and before I decide on all the specifics? So is there anything more than motion speed of the steppers that would be an issue?

Thanks,

Viktor

[Michael G.]

I'm using ramps + marlin. Had it documented there: https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/wiki/Marlin

[Bernd Walter]

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 2:26:23 PM UTC+1, Viktor Hedefalk wrote:

Thanks all for info!

A follow-up question:

I really want to start with the hardware pretty soon without spending too much effort in info-digging. Want to step away from the computer and use a screwdriver basically. Therefore I would like to postpone the MCU selection a bit. So, I'm asking, if I were to use a ramps based thing temporarily, would that work but just be slow in motion?

Don't be worried too much about it.
I'm running my machine with 2 MKS Gen boards (plus a couple other boards for feeders, ...), which are single board RAMPS clones.
Beside being a single PCB (plus driver modules) it has switching regulators and can handle 24V out of the box, which standard RAMPS don't.
24V is good for torque at higher speeds, but that's all about it and modifying a RAMPS for 24V is easy.
I'm running 20tooth GT pulleys with 16x microstepping, which results in 80steps/mm, which is good enough.
With this setup and Repetier Firmware the machine can handle something about 500-600mm/s.
The speed with Marlin might be a bit less, because AFAIK it has only double-stepping, while Repetier also does quad stepping.

There are 2 reasons why I might upgrade one board to a 32-bit one day.
1.
My machine is big and I'd love to have more speed on the long path to the feeders.
2.
I have a 4 nozzle head and the rotation motors are on the other controller, which unfortunately with OpenPnP implies that they can't
rotate during XY move, which means I'm loosing time.
With a 6 stepper board I could do X, Y and 4 rotation on one board and the Z motors on the other.
Z never moves at the same time, so there is no loss.

My personal decision will be a RAMPS-FD setup, because I have and know them, they support 6 steppers and they run with Repetier-Firmware, which I already know and use.
But depending on my mood I might also use the MKS-gen with a 6 stepper setup, since my Y motor is using an external driver, which I also could hook up to GPIO to keep the onboard Y driver slot free for a rotation driver.

I'm trying to understand if there's something in this project that _needs_ the power of arm 32-bit or if its "only" the matter of motion speed. Reason is I have had great success with ramps or mks1.3 for reprap style 3d printers and I'm more familiar with this so figure I could use it as a temporary thing when experimenting with hardware and before I decide on all the specifics? So is there anything more than motion speed of the steppers that would be an issue?

Then start with a 8-bit board, there is nothing inherently wrong with them.

[Viktor Hedefalk]

@Bernt Awesome, thanks!

@Michael, Cool! Come to think of it I guess I've read that you used ramps. Yours and Anthony's are the ones I'm trying to base my build off of. 

Another question I was going to ask was about your head? Part of the fun with this project for me would be to try to make as much as possible myself and if possibly 3d print as much as possible. Are you happy with your 3d printed head design and are the .step files over at https://docs.mgrl.de/maschine:pickandplace current?

Thanks,

Viktor