Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[Puttaraju H P]

Dear Colleagues,

 

Department of Life Sciences, Bangalore University, Bangalore, Karnataka, India in Collaboration with Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute, Bangalore is organizing the Fourth International Conference “Science and Scientist – 2016”: http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016  

 

This two day conference will organized during 26 and 27 August 2016 at Prof. K. V. Gowda Memorial Auditorium of Bangalore University.

 

Registration details

The registration details have been given at the conference webpage:

http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/2016/schedConf/registration

 

The last date for registration is June 24, 2016.

 

Accommodation

Accommodation will be arranged for all the registered delegates by the organizers.

 

Technical Paper Submission and Proceedings of Science and Scientist 2016

The organizers invite submission of articles within 5000 words and after a review process the author of selected articles will be intimated for presentation (for those international delegates who cannot come physically to the conference venue an online presentation facility is also arranged) in the conference. All accepted papers will be published in the proceedings of Science and Scientist – 2016. The last date for article submission is 2nd June, 2016.

 

Please submit your article online at the submissions link given in the conference webpage.

http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/2016/schedConf/cfp 

 

Conference Themes

With the theme of ‘Frontiers in Life Sciences’ the major focus is on the question “Scientist can explain Science, but can Science explain the Scientist?”. The prevailing scientific concepts are the product of knowledge gained through research. Yet ‘Science’ cannot be explained in totality by the concepts we know. Thus it would be interesting note the inability of science to address its own foundations. The modern approach of life sciences which are based on genes and proteins take the aide of bioinformatics to account for extra genomic signaling and epigenetics (including the environment and the information domains related to the transient and dynamic states). The rise of systems biology signals the end of naïve reductionism. The biological phenomena are an activity of inseparable and restless wholistic unity and are not mere mechanical arrangements.

 

‘Life’ is an unique biological phenomena that encompass sentient activity which is not found in chemical arrangements outside life processes. With this perspective ‘The central dogma’ might prove to be incomplete to answer all the mysteries that surround life. The basic component of life ‘The cell’ is being increasingly recognized as a sentient entity. For example, Prof. James A. Shapiro mentions, “The cognitive, informatic view of how living cells operate and utilize their genomes is radically different from the genetic determinism perspective articulated most succinctly, in the last century, by Francis Crick’s famous “Central Dogma of Molecular Biology.”

 

The organisms possess elaborate sensory apparatus. They pick up signals about chemicals in the environment. For example they can track the nutrient availability, signals from other cells, and problems in the environment as well as the intracellular events that are going on inside the organisms. The cellular processes are whole cell activity. Without the well coordinated intelligent sensory concept the cell structure-function dynamic wholistic activity would be impossible.

 

With this being the core concept the conference has two main categories of themes:

(i) Scientific Critique of Life Science and (ii) Spiritual Biology.

The critique is not a critique from outside but it is a wholly internal critique from the progress of science itself. Frontier Biology recognizes that cells utilize a large variety of biomolecular processes and organizes them informatically to take appropriate decisions. In this way the cellular information is wholistic and possess a degree of self-determination. The atomistic viewpoint is no longer attractive and the recognition of systems biology means that scientists recognize that molecules do not act independently and groups of molecules work cooperatively and achieve the required functions. Random activity is no longer seen as the concept of biology and instead an automatic concept of biology is recognized.

 

The section of Spiritual Biology will probe into the question that why we lack any deeper understanding of these processes in terms of mechanistic concepts as well as delve into the more philosophical aspects of biological phenomena. This will cover the deeper concepts of Causality and will include the discussion on Aristotle’s “four aspects of causes”, Kant’s “internal teleology”, Hegel’s elaboration of “internal teleology” of Kant as well as circular causality of all life processes. For the Scientific Understanding of the concepts of Spiritual Biology, Vedantic tradition offers two empirically testable perfect axiomatic truths, viz., (i) Life comes from Life (biogenesis), and (ii) Matter comes from Life. Life comes from Life (biogenesis) is recognized by scientists like Louis Pasteur, Fransisco Redi and all biologists. The origin of life field in chemistry has not been able to demonstrate how first life can come from chemicals. From Vedantic perspective consciousness is a field of knowing activity. This field is more primitive than the material field. Thus this has major implications for biology and indicates a paradigm shift of revolutionary proportions. Moreover it has implications for our understanding of matter also.

 

From these understandings the conference tries to relate to the ‘LIFE’ in totality and the intelligence, sentient associate with it. The broad themes of Science and Scientist – 2016 are provided at the themes section of conference webpage:

http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/ST

 

Suggestions and Advice

We will also be happy to receive your suggestions and advice so that the conference can be made a grand success for providing important directions towards the scientific understanding of consciousness and important biological concepts, which can lead us towards a viable alternative for development of a biological theory worthy of life.

 

Thanking you.

 

Dr. H.P.PUTTARAJU

Professor, coordinator and Chairman (BOS/BOE)

Department of Biological Sciences and

Coordinator-PGD in Clinical embryology&ART

Bangalore Universty,

Bangalore-560056, India

University link : www.bangaloreuniversity.ac.in

Department link : http://bangaloreuniversity.ac.in/science/sericulture-life-science/

                          http://bangaloreuniversity.ac.in/biological-sciences/

[Dasharath patel]

Many scientist think that the phenomenon of viruses as living. When viruses are not in contact with the host organism they can be seen as sum of chemicals. But when they are in contact with a host organism they start behaving as if they are alive. In previous discussions also we have seen that the scenario is same with prions, which are proteinaceous compounds. We have no working definition for living and no-living in biology and AI. At present it is all depends on the way that a researcher see the life or nonlife. It will be good to make clear what we mean by living and nonliving. Some think when there is no chemical reaction taking place inside organism then it is dead. But we have also seen discussions on seeds which show similar behavior but they are living. Hypothesis that we seen in life sciences must answer the question: what is the least (molecules, reactions, activities, behavior, etc.) that can be considered as life?

--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
----------------------------
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Kind regards,
Dasharath Patel

Mo +91 9979634434

"Invisible Contribution for
      Visible Success"

[William M Altenburg]

Dear Colleague with the right question.

What is life. I have found the best published answer is still Schrodinger's 1944 book by that title.   The essence is Schrodinger said life is the property of a substance to exchange matter and energy with its surroundings and continue to exist beyond what we would normally assume for a similar inanimate structure. What makes this possible is what Schrodinger called "Negentropy" or von Bertalanffy called assimilation.  These are true and remarkably insightful for the 1940-50's.

My work has led from Schrodinger to a more detailed and I hope precise answer.  It will be published later this year if all goes well. What has been a challenge is to arrive at a theoretical description of the necessary and sufficient properties that can be observed to determine if object A on this planet or some other planet or moon is alive. The next criteria is it must be causal such that it can explain the transition from prebiotic to biotic and as Thomas Nagel said explain the evolution of "subjective human consciousness" and this is what I will claim.

You are correct that until this is settled competing hypotheses cannot be fully vetted.

I have two papers before the definition paper. One is on dissipative processes as information and the other is on the ontology of thermodynamic systems.

I hope this gives you a time frame for reviewing at least one fully developed definition of life.

Bill Altenburg

Smarts Hill Laboratories

---

From: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 10:47 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

 

[Dasharath patel]

Dear Bill,

“What is Life” is a very important question and the ‘Science and Scientist’ conference is also seems to aim at developing a scientific understanding of ‘Life’. In this e-group we are witnessing a healthy dialogue between the views of materialists and theologians. On the question of “What is Life” the following paper asks many questions and also highlights the importance of an unbiased dialogue between biologists and theologians http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588815/pdf/yjbm00009-0075.pdf

What Is Life? Prerequisites for a Definition
Douglas E. Dixa
Department of Biology, University of Biology, West Hartford, Connecticut

Abstract
Biologists view life as transient while theologians see it as eternal. An unbiased definition for life would respect both views until one or both were eliminated by evidence. This paper identifies pre-requisites for such a definition. First among these is that all assumptions be made explicit. Currently "life" is surrounded by implicit assumptions, e.g., that it is what organisms lose at death or that it is eternal, that its quality is inversely related to personal distress, that it originated some four billion years ago, and that animate matter can be distinguished from inanimate matter. None of these assumptions are supported by data. It is possible therefore that "life" is as meaningless as phlogiston. If life has meaning, i.e., if it is true, it must be as permanent as buoyancy, gravity, electricity, and the other truths of nature. Any definition for life that would permit such truth to be seen must be free of unwarranted assumptions. For the moment, at least, such a definition would need to be loosely structured and broadly focused. It would need to describe the long and convoluted process by which matter and energy form organisms which then evolve to form conscious organisms which then explore nature and eventually discover truth. Such a definition would include all the reactions and interactions of matter and energy and all the aspects of conscious discovery. It would suffer from superficiality, but, by being free from bias, provide a foundation for dialogue between biologists and theologians.

kind regards
Dasharath patel
Mo: +91 9979634434

[NYIKOS, PETER]

Bill: Schrodinger left out the important feature of near-perfect replication of the essentials of the organism from the definition of life. About the same time, George Gamow, in One Two Three...Infinity used that as his ONLY criterion for life. Even the combination of the two is problematic for the definition of a physical concept of life.

One could argue that the equivocal "continue to exist..." encompasses replication, by implying that the replica can go on to replicate, and so on until something drastic happens in the environment.  Even so, the status of viruses remains unresolved. I therefore suggest another refinement: the essentials of the environment must not include organisms substantially more advanced than the thing itself for the bare essentials of replication.  Viruses lack ribosomes, and the only way they can replicate is to hijack the protein translation mechanism of the host cells. Viroids don't include proteins, so this particular hijacking is unnecessary for them, but they lack the enzymes
necessary to duplicate themselves and must commandeer that part of the host cell.

Patel: You are arguing for a more expansive definition of "life," which includes consciousness and a spiritual aspect. While the definition I give for a purely physical concept is somewhat arbitrary, it certainly is meaningful, unlike the idea of phlogiston. [Even that concept wasn't completely meaningless, it just happened to be completely false.]

Dixa is arguing not for a definition of "living things," but rather for the whole metaphysical concept of "the phenomenon of life as a whole, encompassing all living things that ever existed or will exist." So Bill is arguing at cross purposes from that abstract.

---

From: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com [Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Dasharath patel [dasharat...@gmail.com]

Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 8:09 AM

[kumar bhatt]

Dashrath bhai,

It seems to me from the on going discussion that any approach that considers life and CONSCIOUSNESS TO BE EVOLVING  from non living non - conscious 'matter' will be unacceptable to the Vendantic scholars and philosophers.

kumar bhatt

[Richard Hunt]

It seems as if RNA & DNA viruses fit into this definition of life. Do you provide them as examples of living entities? How about viroids and prions?

[David Schwartzman]

Indeed, true as well for other idealist/supernatualist world views. But thanks for including materialist scientists like myself on your listserve! Long live matter/energy in motion, in all its infinite varieties!

[Roger Clough]

life is nonphysical because it's mental.
its pure intelligence and autonomous free will.

in other words, life is the One.

see my website https://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough ---The world is necessarily controlled or else there is chaos. ---There is necessarily only be one controller or else there will be warfare. ---Therefore there is necessarily a transcendent monarch-like agent.

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com

[William M Altenburg]

Sadhu I am grateful for the response

Schrodinger recognized that reproduction is an energy expensive process hence the living organism must be a store of energy and highly metabolic before it reproduces. That's why he coined the term "negentropy" because cells had to get and store energy before they could reproduce.  The key is growth because the cell after it goes though mitosis is just a shell of its former self. It cannot reproduce until it grows to full size again.  Further it will not reproduce unless it receives signals from outside that all the ingredients for growth are surrounding the cell.

In humans childbirth is the most energy intensive action by a  body. Virus are non-metabolic and are I suspect left over from the formation of life like the background radiation is left over from the big bang.  Viruses are at thermodynamic equilibrium with their surroundings hence they cannot interact with or cause their surroundings.  What they do is fit  molecules in cells to make  new viruses. Life is metabolic, has stored free energy, is dissipative, does work, and is self- regulating and it does all these before it can reproduce.  While I grew up on Gamow he did not know of non-equilibrium thermodynamics nor did I. But Huxley, GG Simpson, Gamow and all the researchers at the time were fascinated by the role of genes.  While the role of metabolism was just sort of there.  Now we see its vital.  Growth comes before reproduction other wise you don't need and cant support reproduction. 

Bill Altenburg

Smarts Hill Laboratories

---

From: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of NYIKOS, PETER <nyi...@math.sc.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 10:07 AM
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

 

[Dasharath patel]

Dear Kumar bhai and David,
 
You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM 
 
Which one we should accept: a blind faith or faith based on evidence?

[kumar bhatt]

No, Dashrath bhai! I do not want nor can i want any one to accept evolution as the basis for emergence of life and consciousness.

I merely stated the impression i got as an outsider, from reading the mails.
It seemed to me that any approach to Biology that does not include CONSCIOUSNESS and LIFE as starting points would be unacceptable to the Vedantic Philosophers.

if my impression is correct i see a lot of possibility for emails but very little for a DIALOG to emerge between different groups.

[i see that even when consciousness and life are accepted as basic realities there must still be some room for EVOLUTION in helping to produce the diversity one observes. of course there is a possibility that the universe was created with all its diversity.]

I know a little bit about about the so called 'reductionist' method of 'understanding' something.

i do not know anything about the HOLISTIC approach to 'understand' anything.

i am completely ignorant about the Vedantic approach to understand any thing. perhaps i may get some idea by following the mails.

regards

kumar bhatt

 

[Alessio Marcozzi]

That is sad, I think there is plenty of room to build a constructive dialogue here.

Also, as a human being and even more as a philosopher you should recognize the importance of expanding your view of the world beyond what it’s already in your mind.

Our ignorance should be the reason to look for more information and more explanations not to close up…

[Dhiru Shah]

 The scientists who support the theory of 'Life from matter' should answer the following:

1. Where did the 'Big Bang' come from? What was before the 'Big Bang'? Where did the original matter (before big bang) come from?

2. What is the origin of Nature? Which is the power that controls the Nature? Who is the creator of the four seasons? 

In the name of modern science, many scientists are forcing the ordinary people (non-scientists) to believe and accept as 'truth' their 'hypothesis' giving fancy names based on their preconceived notions. 

Dhiru Shah   

[Alessio Marcozzi]

The fact that we don’t know what was before the Big Bang it doesn’t imply that life doesn’t come from matter...

This is an illogical conclusion. This same way of reason about the origin of things has been around for long time.

For example, 1000 years ago you may have asked, ‘where the sun is coming from? Who made the moon? If you don’t know the answers, then it was God… This is not an argument.. I hope you get it.

[Dhiru Shah]

Agreed. But shouldn't it also apply to the modern science & scientists for making such tall claim about Big Bang theory as if it was an established fact and making fun of those who don't agree with them?

[Kafatos, Menas]

It applies to everything. Science is based on ontological assumptions. So elementary but scientists don’t believe so, they take everything as given and many claim no ontology. Science curricula do not include philosophical background or history of science. I know, I am an educator for four decades.

 

In the “Conscious Universe” we developed extensively the hidden metaphysics of human though systems.

[Alessio Marcozzi]

I personally don’t know any scientist that make fun of anyone who disagree. I would not consider him&her to be a scientist in the first place. A real scientist is a skeptics anyway. More and more time in the history theories have changed, and this is believed to be the normal way science goes on. No dogma, no certainties, just hard core logic and experiments aiming to figure out what is going on in the universe.

The Big Bang itself is a theory, there are many scientist who disagree with it. It is not enough to have a theory, you have to bring evidence that supports it and the same is true when if you disagree with a theory, you need to argument why you disagree, why the proves do not convince you.

Unfortunately it’s a difficult business and many just don’t feel comfortable with it. The lack of proper argumentations is what make one position ‘laughable’.

In the case of Big Bang for example. The theory says that there was a Big Bang indeed, and following the theory then we should find traces of this big explosion, and following the theory you can make calculations and find that a background radiation should be there for the theory to hold.

Then the background radiation was found and that was ‘supporting’ the theory

Then you can say, but if there was an explosion the galaxies should be moving apart from each other.. you look at the galaxies and they are indeed moving apart etc etc.. and you find more and more facts that support the theory.

However, the theory is still a theory! And you will find it defined so on all the text book.

So, no honest scientist would take it as final truth.

In the future some better theory can explain the observations and if so it will be embraced and studied.

On the other hand, if you dislike the theory a priori and refuse it just because doesn’t fit what you have been believing so far.. that would be a mistake. If you can argument why you don’t believe that the theory fit the data, you are very welcome to expose your thoughts and you may even take a Nobel prize for it! But if you use as justification some other silly excuses like ‘It can’t be’ or ‘The bible says differently’ then you are escaping the conversation, you are not really trying to understand the theory but you are just running away from it.

The way of preceding of religions and belief is fundamentally different. The holy texts are telling the truth, no one can doubt about it, this or that vision of the universe is given and have to stay like that, there is no room to change it. That is a very different approach to knowledge.

To my humble opinion, this approach is limiting a mind to grow, because it tricks you to believe that you already have all the answers, and you don’t look for new one, you even get scared of new possibilities and you start refusing any counter opinion.

Even evil-holy wars can come out from this kind of mindset.

Are you all sure that the one you have is the only and rock-solid truth?

If your answer is yes, then you are a believer.

Are you ready to really look for it?

Are you ready to don’t find it?

Are you ready for uneasy answers and endless doubts?

If your answers are yes, then you are an honest scientist.

No, Dashrath bhai! I do not want nor can i want any one to acceptevolution as the basis for emergence of life and consciousness.

[kumar bhatt]

Thanks Prof Marcozzi for very useful definitions of BELIEVER and
TRUE SCIENTIST.

[an average believer or a scientist will oscillate between the two ideal categories!]

kumar bhatt

[Alex Hankey]

Dear Dr Puttaraju,

I would like to offer to give a presentation at your conference in August.

In April I am giving Preconference Seminar on Complexity and Consciousness at the 2016 Tucson Science of Consciousness Conference. It will summarize my recently published work on how complexity based information states support a form of self-aware consciousness (attached) on which the Federation of Information Scientists have requested a special email webinar presentation in a month's time. 

Some further developments of this work are also in the process of being published. 

If you would like a presentation on Human Intuition as an aspect of "How the Scientist Creates Science" I should be very glad to offer you such a talk, and will send you an abstract by return if so requested..

Best wishes,

Alex Hankey 

PROPOSED TITLE

A Complexity based Model of Human Intuition: 

Towards a Science of how Scientists creates Science

(An extension of my model for 7th Sense 

communication resulting from the model)

--

----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
----------------------------
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Alex Hankey M.A. (Cantab.) PhD (M.I.T.)
Distinguished Professor of Yoga and Physical Science,
SVYASA, Eknath Bhavan, 19 Gavipuram Circle
Bangalore 560019, Karnataka, India 
Mobile (Intn'l): +44 7710 534195 

Mobile (India) +91 900 800 8789

____________________________________________________________

2015 JPBMB Special Issue on Integral Biomathics: Life Sciences, Mathematics and Phenomenological Philosophy

[Dr. Bhakti Niskama Shanta]

Dear Dr. Alex Hankey

Namaskar.

Thank you for your interest in our upcoming Fourth International Conference "SCIENCE AND SCIENTIST - 2016" 

				Fourth International Conference "SCIENCE AND SCIEN... 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring t...
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute in collaboration with Department of Life Sciences, Bangalore University, is organizing the "Science and Scientist" annual conference series to create a platform for a dialogue between scientists and philosophers to develop a proper scientific understanding of subjects like "Consciousness", "Life", "Evolution of Life", "Origin of Life", "Soul Hypothesis" and so on. You may like to read the themes section of the conference for further information of the conference THEMES OF CONFERENCE  

				THEMES OF CONFERENCE 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring t...
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We would like to request your good self and all other respected scientists/philosophers who would like to participate in this event as a speaker, please submit your paper online (paper must address the theme of the conference and after a review the authors of the selected papers will be intimated for its presentation in the conference): Call for Papers  

		Call for Papers 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring the Vedantic Paradigm as an alternative.
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Many are also inquiring about their participation as non-speaking delegates in this conference. To confirm your participation in this conference please register (registration fees include the expenses towards accommodation at the conference venue) for the conference by following the instruction on the registration page: Registration    

		Registration 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring the Vedantic Paradigm as an alternative.
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* International delegates can register via online registration system provides on the registration page. 

* Indian delegates however can register for the conference by sending the registration fees via direct internet bank transfer to our institute account:

Account name: SRI CHAITANYA SARASWAT INSTITUTE 
Account no: 072205001150 
IFS code: ICIC0000722 
SWIFT code: ICICINBBCTS

Please send an email to in...@scsiscs.org after sending the registration fees so that you can receive confirmation of the same.

To receive important conference News you may subscribe for updates: Notification mailing list

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You may also like to read the message from Conference Chair to know the objective of "Science and Scientist" conference series: Message From the Conference Chair

				Message From the Conference Chair 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring t...
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Sincerely,

B.N. Shanta,

Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D.                     Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute
+91-(9748906907)	Donate  www.scsiscs.org
#8, Gopalakrishnan Mansion, Konappana Agrahara, Electronic City, Bangalore, Karnataka, India

  

[Alex Hankey]

THANKS, Dr Shanta but may I make an oral presentation?

[Eric Reyes]

Dear Alessio

     You admit that we don't know what was before the Big Bang, but then use the example that 1000 years ago we didn't know where the sun and moon came from, but that now we do know? Logically that doesn't make much sense because of course we are assuming that the Big Bang preceded the sun and moon's existence right? It's a little like someone who has no knowledge at all of how produce grows in the fields of a farm, but explains to people that we now know where zucchini squash come from, that the grocery store is the origin of zucchini squash, something like that. Unless you understand how the squash plants grow in the fields you don't really understand where the zucchini come from. Same for the universe, if one doesn't know the origin of matter itself, how can one truly know the origin of the sun and moon and planets?

  

   Regards,  Eric Reyes

---

From: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2016 12:32 PM

[Dr. Bhakti Niskama Shanta]

Dear Dr. Alex Hankey

As we have mentioned earlier, all the interested scientists/philosophers are welcome to submit a full length paper (within 2000-5000 words) online at: Call for Papers

		Call for Papers 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring the Vedantic Paradigm as an alternative.
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All the submitted papers for Fourth International Conference "SCIENCE AND SCIENTIST - 2016" will undergo a review process and based on review comments the authors of the accepted papers will be intimated for the presentation of their papers in the suitable session of the conference. 

				Fourth International Conference "SCIENCE AND SCIEN... 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring t...
				View on scsiscs.org	Preview by Yahoo

The THEMES OF CONFERENCE "Science and Scientist - 2016" are focused on few major paradigm shifts that we are witnessing in 21st Century Biology:

(1) Human to Bacteria all the living forms are sentient entities (Ref. 1, Ref. 2, Ref. 3, Ref. 4, Ref. 5).

(2) Individual cells in the multicellular organisms exhibit individual cognitive behavior (Ref. 1).

(3) Cell sentience challenges neo-Darwinism (Ref. 1, Ref. 2).

(4) Darwin's 'Tree of Life' refuted (Ref. 1, Ref. 2, Ref. 3, Ref. 4, Ref. 5).

(5) Geo-chronology is based on erroneous assumptions and thus fossil record cannot support gradualism based Darwin's 'Tree of Life' concept (Ref. 1). 

(6) Life is beyond 'Genetic Determinism' (Ref. 1, Ref. 2, Ref. 3, Ref. 4).

(7) Consciousness is beyond Brain and Computational Modeling (Ref. 1, Ref. 2, Ref. 3).

(8) Abiogenesis is an unverified ideological presupposition that has no scientific or observation-based evidence to support it. In the recent past, however, the realization has arisen that cognitive nature of life at all levels has begun presenting significant challenges to the views of materialism in biology and has created a more receptive environment for the soul hypothesis (Ref. 1, Ref. 2, Ref. 3, Ref. 4, Ref. 5, Ref. 6).

Therefore, we can meditate on the statement of Carl R. Woese in his article 'A New Biology for a New Century':

Biology today is at a crossroads. The molecular paradigm, which so successfully guided the discipline throughout most of the 20th century, is no longer a reliable guide. Its vision of biology now realized, the molecular paradigm has run its course. Biology, therefore, has a choice to make, between the comfortable path of continuing to follow molecular biology's lead or the more invigorating one of seeking a new and inspiring vision of the living world, one that addresses the major problems in biology that 20th century biology, molecular biology, could not handle and, so, avoided. The former course, though highly productive, is certain to turn biology into an engineering discipline. The latter holds the promise of making biology an even more fundamental science, one that, along with physics, probes and defines the nature of reality. This is a choice between a biology that solely does society's bidding and a biology that is society's teacher.

				THEMES OF CONFERENCE 'Science and Scientist - 2014' is the premier forum for understanding the limitations of causal or mechanistic determinism in modern science and thereby exploring t...
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Thanking you.

Sincerely,

Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D.                     Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute

+91-(9748906907)

Donate  www.scsiscs.org

#8, Gopalakrishnan Mansion, Konappana Agrahara, Electronic City, Bangalore, Karnataka, India

[Alessio Marcozzi]

Dear Eric,

You are perfectly right. Indeed we do not know the very origin of things yet.

However, our ignorance alone cannot be used to justify other explanations.

Like we didn't know what the sun was 1000 years ago, and many cultures asserted it was a god, now we know that the sun it is not a god, but a star, and we know pretty much how does it work. Now nobody would think that the sun is a god, but this was a very serious TRUTH in the past...

It is very reasonable to imagine that in the next 1000 years we will know what was before the big bang for example...

It could also be that we will never know what the origin of everything was.. but this it shouldn't be an excuse to put god as an answer. God cannot be the answer to our most difficult questions. Rather we should keep push forward the limit of our knowledge and be open on what we will find.

It could be that we will find god, I would be open to that.

It could be that we will find that something else is the origin, I would be open to that as well.

Coming to your example,

immagine that we don't know where the zucchini that are in our fridge are coming from.

Well, we could answer, god made the zucchini appear in our fridge.

Or, we could track back the zucchini and find that they were coming from the grocery store.

At this point, we could stop searching for a better answer and say that all the zucchini are made from the grocery store and that the grocery store is like a god that make all the thing we heat.

Or, we could continue looking for more answer and figure out that the zucchine do not get created in the grocery store but they grow in the fields, the come from seeds, and that they evolved from algae etc etc...

Now the big bang is our grocery store.. we have tracked back thing up to there. Let's go on, let's continue with our exploration...

Does it make sense?

Regards,

Alessio

[Gangadhar BN]

I agree with alessio that we may find God one day. Our search should go on. God has varied definitions. Is God an experience?? Is God ahitherto unknown form of energy? Is God merely virtual?

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, 2 Mar, 2016 at 7:41 PM, Alessio Marcozzi

<alessio....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Devakinandan Das]

God is Virtual and He is Physical as the same time - that what makes Him God.  You can experience Him as light, air, vacuum or you can experience Him as  a person standing in front of you face to face  embracing you. You decide according to your taste, training and background.

Devaki

---

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:29:06 +0000
From: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

[Eric Reyes]

 Dear Allesio

   Thank you, and good luck with your search, in fact good luck with all our searches, human life is meant for just that type of searching for answers to all our highest questions, where we came from, where matter and the universe come from etc. We look to the Heavens at night with billions of stars, planets and moons with wonder, our desire to search for answers sparked. That's what life is all about.

Sincerely,  Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Alex Hankey]

Dear Eric,

I suppose you are familiar with the fact that in cities in the UK (and probably many other countries) many children don't know that milk comes from cows (or goats as the case may be) and not 'from supermarkets'. 

Alex

[Alex Hankey]

Much appreciated,

Thank you for this.

Alex Hankey

[Eric Reyes]

Dear Alex,

     Yes and we may actually be devolving in that sense, haha. In a similar way if a human being doesn't search out the answers to where he comes from, where the universe comes from and why he exists then he could be said to devolving also. But judging from some of the statements I've been reading from the distinguished scientists, physicists and philosophers on this forum it seems that progress is being made, things are moving forwards. And when someone makes a statement like Alessio's regarding viewing simplified views that "God did it" as being based on ignorance, well that could be true of course as it is impossible to tell from a man's word alone just exactly how much understanding the man has behind the statement, whether he has in depth knowledge of God or not. Of course the subject of God or religion has been somewhat a taboo subject for scientifically minded persons in the recent past. But nowadays with the greater understanding that certain phenomena even so common as gravity defy scientific explanation, as well as the orbits/paths of certain phenomena in space, origins of consciousness etc, these escape our easy explanation, and so how can we definitively state that God doesn't exist? We can't even explain gravity definitively what to speak of God, so at least we admit that we don't know for now, and we continue our searching for answers, I think this forum is actually a good place for that.

Regards,  Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Alessio Marcozzi]

Dear all,

I am sorry if my words sounded harsher than what I have meant them to be.

I agree with you Eric on the fact that this forum can be an excellent place to move the conversation forward.

About the 'God did it" simplification, you are right, it is a simplification.

About gravity, we are getting there!

Last year the Higgs boson was discovered, and just a few weeks ago gravitational waves coming from an unimaginable distance were measured for the first time. So, we really are getting there!

My point is, that the lack of a proper answer based on physical evidence should not be automatically accepted as a manifestation of the "metaphysic" realm.

As far the history of human-kind can tell, we have a natural tendency for making hard-to-answer questions, and the same natural tendency of coming up with very diverse answers. However, over time, we can clearly see (at least I see it) that a primordial metaphysical explanation will be substituted with a physical one. This is a hard and very painful process! I get that. It's unbelievably hard to track down all the motion of the planets, integrate their trajectory over time and come up with a decent model that can explain what we see and why it is like that (also here a simplification!).

It is obviously much more easy to say that "God did it" (again sorry for the simplification but try to bear with me).

It is more appealing also, it makes our mind free from doubts, it makes everything easy to explain (the concept of God is easily understood by a kid while the general theory of relativity it's a bit more harsh to digest), it even creates a possibility for eternal life or immortal soul so that our fear are sedated. It's a powerful and charming way to approach things.

But I feel it incomplete. It does not give any concrete explanation, it shifts the problem to 'God', it basically says something like "you are just human, you cannot know, don't bother, God knows it, you can admire him for this and that's it" (simplification again!)

Lastly, what I really felt troublesome over the year, is that different religions and philosophies give different answers or they depict very different scenarios about "God", "the beginning of things", "life", "consciousness", "the soul","the afterlife" etc. Moreover, they are very very conservative about that even though much of these -let's call it views- are geographically and culturally distinct (a strong indication of being human-made rather than god-made).

Any comment on that would be highly appreciated! How do you discriminate among different metaphysical interpretations?

In science if you have a different theory you test them and then you tend to accept the one that fits better with the measurements, for example.

So the point now is, "Is consciousness a complex thing that we may fail to describe as only physical phenomena yet, but it could very well be that in few decades we solve it as we solved the motion of the planets or is it intrinsically metaphysics? And if the latter, why so? What argument can you offer me to justify this vision?" But please, do not use as arguments the fact that someone else said that, that it is written in some ancient book or such.

Respectfully,

Alessio

[Dasharath patel]

Dear Alessio Marcozzi,

It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.

Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.

[Alessio Marcozzi]

Dear Dasharath,

What about all the things we accumulate over time, like videos, pictures, reports, weather data etc...

Aren't this sign of the fact that we can actually record stuff and thus track the history?

I am quite sure I can know a great deal of histary from such a sources, don't you agree?

You say "life and matter are coming from life" are you convinced about that because "no one gives us any direction or hints"? Can you give me any pove of the fact that life was before matter and not the other way around?

Also, as you said, "...as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim". So, it is a claim. I could claim the opposite. How can anyone, leveraging the claims alone, can discern which (if any) of the two opposit claims is true?

[Alessio Marcozzi]

I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg

[Bharath Ch]

Dear Alessio Marcozzi,

It is rather silly to claim that videos, pictures, reports, weather data etc. will help us know the history of origin of life. Do we record every event in the universe by videos, pictures, reports, weather data etc? History cannot be known by available technology. Therefore that is a limitation of human knowledge. It is as simple as that. Life is higher reality as compared to matter and hence it is easy to think that something lower (matter) can come from higher (life). This can be also seen as life produces matter. The claims of Vedanta philosophy that 'Life comes from Life' and 'Matter comes from Life' are empirically observable facts so we can prove it. What is your proof for opposite 'Life comes from Matter'? 'Life comes from Matter' is only a blind faith or a dogma.

http://www.twitter.com/radhekrsna

[purusottama dasa]

Dear Alessio,

Maybe we should first read and study the  Vedanta,  which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.

Then more  people in this group will take us more serious! 

For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do. 

George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.

All the best 

Peter Scherrenburg

Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com>
Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)
Aan: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[Alessio]

Can you explain me why matter is on a lower level for you?
About my believe of life coming from matter, although we don't have replicated in the lab the full transition between matter to life systems, we are close to finish it up. The majority of the steps required have been unrevealed and tested and gave reliable results. We can start with simple atoms and let evolve system very complex able to do most of the thing that a basic life form -a bacteria- can do.

---

From: Bharath Ch
Sent: ‎03/‎03/‎2016 20:18

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[The entire original message is not included.]

[Alessio]

This is a good point!
Can you summarize what are the basic principles of the Vedanta?

---

From: purusottama dasa
Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 11:13

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[Dasharath patel]

Dear Alessio,

Matter is dull and cannot do anything by itself. A collection of bricks and cement cannot produce a building. A collection of atoms and molecules cannot produce the orderly universe that we witness. Life is needed to produce the extraordinary order that we see in universe. See the order in the blade of grass. Can chemicals without the help of living agency produce that?

You can claim that you are close to achieve the production of life from matter. But that is what we all are hearing for last 100 years and more. We will do it in future. That is why I have told that those who claim such things again and again in journals and science books to get some research funds all of them should feel at least some shame. As the Vedanata philosophers challenged in this group many times and I also ask you the same – please show us how you can produce a blade of grass from chemicals.

If you feel grass is too complex then even produce a bacterium by adding DNA, RNA, Protein, Enzymes, etc. First produce this and then say that 'here life comes from matter'. Without doing that do not fool people that in future you will do this and that. Anyone will say in 'future'. 'Future' is an excuse and cannot be taken as evidence. Such practice is an attempt to only devalue the true science.

The message from Conference Chair is most suitable in this regard: http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
Science is the product of rational activity of Scientists. It is the peculiar perversion of modern materialistic science to think they can invert this natural sequence. Scientist is able to explain Science, but Is Science Able to Explain the Scientist?

--

[purusottama dasa]

Dear Alessio,

Just as  some scientists  we have seen in this dialogue-group very Elaborately  tried to make their point to show that Life comes from Matter,

why do you not take the effort to go to the sadhu-sanga website, find the articles where very precisely and painstakingly this very subjects are very elaborately  lined out?

A little summarisation will not convince an intelligent person like you,especially because you are opposing (at the moment) those Vedantic principles!

You and some others we have seen in this discussions did really not study the arguments from the Vedantic side, that we can understand  by what they and you are telling here.

We can quote Chanakya:

Better an intelligent (but honest) opponent then a foolish friend

George Wald was first opposed but became convinced that Everything originates from Life.

Nobel prize winners like him are not so easily convinced of what they are opposing first,it took more then just some summary!

One thing I will mention from Vedanta:

According to 3 guna's there are 3 types of discussions

In 1:Sattvaguna  or mode of goodness, No matter what,even if I have to give up 

my personal opinion, if Truth is recognised we should accept it! (Not blindly!)

Rajaguna  or mode of passion,

No matter what, even if we have to sacrifice what comprises Truth, my opinion has to prevail!

Then Tamaguna, or the mode of ignorance:those who can should the loudest,with the aid of all false arguments in existence

with the most money,and power, they win,by silencing or ignoring Truth.

Those 3 are states or graduations of consciousness each individual is in.

We want dialogue in mode of goodness.

You are a sincere person, so please study the vedanta first  deeply as we have directed to in this mail, to satisfy your thirst for knowledge also on this side.

Actually it would be better if we all would personally meet up, this Internet discussions are nice but also limited in regard to human relations

With much respect

Peter

Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: Alessio <alessio....@gmail.com>
Date: 04/03/2016 13:47 (GMT+01:00)
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

This is a good point!
Can you summarize what are the basic principles of the Vedanta?

---

From: purusottama dasa
Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 11:13

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

Dear Alessio,

Maybe we should first read and study the  Vedanta,  which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.

Then more  people in this group will take us more serious! 

For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do. 

George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.

All the best 

Peter Scherrenburg

Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------
Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com>
Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)
Aan: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Cc:

Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.

[Alessio]

I don't have enough time now to properly follow up this with an extensive answer right now but I will come back on this topic.

---

From: Dasharath patel
Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 14:59
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[purusottama dasa]

Dear Alessio,
 
Ok then, we will attempt to express some points of Vedanta essential to this forum where so many opinions are manifested.
Please read it carefully to understand it.
If we make mistakes or if it is necessary to add something will one of the respected monks or others please correct me.
 
According to Vedanta, all various opinions are (relatively) correct, only in the sense that different people cannot but see and understand things the way they are perceiving it.
Vedanta explains why some people keep insisting that Life must come from Matter and other say that Matter comes from Life!
 
According to how every individual is conditioned by a combination of the 3 Guna's, we see the world.
 
Scientists, philosophers, various religions, all are governed by those 3 modes of nature.
If we study it carefully, it will gradually dawn upon us that our ideas and visions and discoveries are not so original as we thought. 

 

For example  3 types of knowledge:

 

SATTVA GUNA : One sees in all the various forms of  body the same atma or spiritual being, only the potential or conciousness          is more or less manifested according to that particulair body( about those levels of conciousness later more)

 

The result of this Sattva guna vision is an utmost respect for all  life and/or  planet earth with no unnecessary exploitation of this planet or its inhabitants.

 

RAJA GUNA: Ones vision is more limited and they see in different forms of body only the outward appearance, with the dire consequences we are sorry to see on this planet.

Then we only see tree, plant, animal, human  like this about 8400000 different species of life.

Variations are:" Life is only chemical,material origen",     " there is no soul,only matter",      "the soul is the body" or "the body is the soul"    (certain religions believe the latter)     "the soul dies when the body dies" .

It becomes clear by studying Vedanta then that our vision and ideas are not that special, that it is just controlled, as puppets on a string, therefore some humility is needed to admit this.

We can see from the above variations that some scientists are in their vision and believe then not so far away as some of the very religions they ridicule. 

According to Vedanta this are conditions or mixtures of Raja and Tama Guna's

One will see "friend" and "enemy", raga  and dvesa(attraction and repulsion) important and so called unimportant, like   oh this one I can exploit, oh this one" is useless  etc....

In this vision, since one sees more important and less important, differences between types of living entities  are emphasized resulting in various exploitating of other living beings and lacking of respect towards them. 

 

TAMA GUNA:  No knowledge at all, only ones particulair occupation, eating sleeping........

 

Ok one out of more examples:

 

ACTIONS or WORK:

 

SATTVAGUNA: One will be carefull to see not only the immediate results of work, but also the future consequenses of it, and chooses to do or not to do accordingly

Everybody(all living entities) should be happy and benefitted by action/work

 

RAJAGUNA: The immediate result is emphasised mostly, future consequences not(or are patched up later) Does that not sound a little familiair to us all?

This condition is also responseble for much of the mess we made of this Planet

Creating 1 solution with as consequense more problems etc.....

 

TAMO GUNA: Like the latter, but much more destructive and blind action, totally egocentric behaviour!

 

There  are more divisions like this to be found in Vedanta, in Gitopanisad etc.

 

Since this different visions conditioned by the 3 Guna's are distortions of Reality, with many mixtures of the 3, like mixing 3 colours one get many many different shades of colour, according to Vedanta this are all only believe-systems or things which only exist between our two ears.

 

Now Goodness or Sattva-Guna is the closest we can go to the Supreme Reality or Truth.

 

If one can at least theoratically accept therefore that Spiritual or Life is the origen of everything, one will be inclined to follow a spiritual discipline by which one can come to actual realization instead of assuming or believing something especially if one is victimised by this Lower 2 Guna's

 

Vedanta advises strongly that human beings should therefore try to come at least to SATTVA GUNA

 

Reading this extremely deep spiritual Literature of which what we have written here only some drops of the ocean of knowledge,

will make one naturally humble to start to understand our perspective towards everything around us.

 

Otherwise we will be bound to claim our being right,  not being able to see things differently then how we see things now, resulting in endless discussions.

 

Thats why we humbly advises to study and follow Vedanta, to see for ourselves.

 

With much respect,

 

Peter Scherrenburg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:29:31 +0100

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

From: purus...@hotmail.com
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com

[purusottama dasa]

Dear Dr. Vimal 

Underneath again a mail which was send by me some time ago.

From which as a reaction we got a deafening silence, of course the mail itselve explains why that is so.

It is a very crude understanding for now but maybe it may explain something.

From it we can start to understand what comes closest to a sincere question according to Vedantist.

As long as we  mainly are conditioned by the guna's Rajas and Tamas we cannot but question about the external, which is temporary and passing by.

It may be one cell or accumulations of it, forming  various material bodies, all are coming and going and therefore do not comprise of the essential question.

Do not get me wrong, I am not trying to escape from your question, just for now showing  

what is essential  according to Vedanta.

If I would have one week to live my questions would be different ones.

I would say since life is temporary, we should ask:

Who am I,  who is perceiving how everything is temporary.

Why I am situated in this situation in which we have to  take birth grow old and die.

Janma mritu jara vyadi 

why everything surrounding me is having beginning and end , causing me pain and pleasure ,happiness and distress.

Since I perceive all this I must be different as perceiver.

Atma Tattva, we should put the emphasis on questions regarding that.

On your question there should also be an answer and some of us will deal with that also.

That we cannot understand the swamy very well as you have stated maybe because we have to follow a path by which we can come out of Rajas and Ramas and come minimum 

To Sattvaguna Then we will understand very readily many things he has written.

Just as any material form is formed and received because of desire, so also a cell,which is also in the category of the fleeting material nature.

Because the atma is the basis of everything here ,of which consciousness is its effect.

And just as various bodies are representations of  the various conditioned forms of consciousness, so are all our "discoveries, our opinions" ,not so special, they are already there before we get them and that is or would be shockingly humiliating,or in the positive it will make us humble and ready to take  the steps nessecary to come out of those various conditional situation.

But read the mail under here please.

Just as was expressed already so many times humility is needed.

Best,

Peter

Sent from my iPad

[Deepak Chopra]

How we create the universe 

1 All we have access to is experience and the knowing of experience .
2 We cannot know or experience anything without awareness 
2 Experience includes 
      Feeling 
      Thinking 
        Sensing 
        Perceiving 

        Knowing 
        Imagining 
        Intuiting 
3 Experience occurs in awareness is known in awareness and made out of awareness . Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience 
4 Humans created language to label experiences and objectified them thus creating the concepts of mind body universe. 
5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for  shapes forms and activities that formless awareness assumes . 
6 The only true identity/ reality  is formless being that assumes the experience of all form and phenomenon . 
7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom 
8 It is also pure love 

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

[Jinan K B]

Deepakji
Are the points 5,6 and 7 idea or have you experienced it ?

(5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for

shapes forms and activities that formless awareness assumes .
6 The only true identity/ reality is formless being that assumes the
experience of all form and phenomenon .
7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both
awakening and freedom

8 It is also pure love )

Jinan

On 02/05/2016, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:
>
>
> How we create the universe
> 1 All we have access to is experience and the knowing of experience .
> 2 We cannot know or experience anything without awareness
> 2 Experience includes
> Feeling
> Thinking
> Sensing
> Perceiving
> Knowing
> Imagining
> Intuiting
> 3 Experience occurs in awareness is known in awareness and made out of
> awareness . Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience
> 4 Humans created language to label experiences and objectified them thus
> creating the concepts of mind body universe.
> 5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for shapes
> forms and activities that formless awareness assumes .
> 6 The only true identity/ reality is formless being that assumes the
> experience of all form and phenomenon .
> 7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening
> and freedom
> 8 It is also pure love
>
> Deepak Chopra

> 2013 Costa Del Mar Road<x-apple-data-detectors://0>
> Carlsbad, CA 92009<x-apple-data-detectors://0>
>
> [X]

[Stuart Kauffman]

Deepak I was glad to meet you. But how do  you account for the vastly diverse non random fossil record in the rocks??? Stu Kauffman

[Javier Sánchez Cañizares]

Glad to meet you all.

I agree with Prof. Kauffman. My question to Prof. Chopra is:

Why in formless consciousness do such specific appearances occur? How come that specific symmetry breaking?

Thanks for your talks at Tucson last week.

All the best.

Javier

[Bharath Ch]

Dear Deepak you have told to be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom. Why do you think that formless being is the ground? How can be a being is formless? 

How one can be in love with formless?

--

http://www.twitter.com/radhekrsna

[Deepak Chopra]

Consciousness is formless 

It can't be seen or measured but makes experience possible 

See if this helps 

https://www.facebook.com/DeepakChopra/videos/10153610708910665/

[Deepak Chopra]

Stu 

Evolution of species could be evolution of species of consciousness . 

Awareness is not personal 

It is the non local ground of existence 

The only universe we can experience is the human universe 

Other species exist in the human universe 

We surmise ( correctly their existence ) through human observation . 

Also some would make a case for retro causality and delayed choice observations but I'm no expert on that 

It was wonderful to meet you ! 

🙏🏾

[Deepak Chopra]

Yes

🙏🏾

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

[Eric Reyes]

Dear Deepak,

    You say:

"6 The only true identity/ reality  is formless being that assumes the experience of all form and phenomenon . 

7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom 

8 It is also pure love"

    And also,

 "Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience"

     But that leaves huge questions, for example if we are the creator of experience then how is it that we are not awake presently? Why do we need awakening in the first place? And clearly as you have stated we are not free, how is it that we are subjected at the moment and needing to seek freedom? How has that happened to the "creator" energy? If we are all that is superior?

     And if we can recognize forms, how can we ourselves be "formless" ultimately? 

     Clearly there is much more to life, consciousness and the universe than this. At the moment I don't claim to know all the answers, but I can say honestly that by clear logic I can understand that there is much more to the whole picture, that we ourselves are not the topmost being or energetic, else we would not have been subjected to our current state. I think we all need further study which brings these contradictions into the ultimate explanation. My best guess is that the Vedantic scriptures which Madhava Puri Maharaja and others are propounding are that whole picture but I will need much more study to understand that.

    Sincerely, 

       Eric Reyes

[Ken Marton]

Deepak,

 

Your analysis is beautiful, but deeply flawed, and if accepted, will eventually slow human progress to the next level, possibly even dangerously side-track it.

 

Yes, from a neuroscientific/biologic point-of-view, your points 1 – 5 are easy to accept.  We only have direct access to experiencing. 

                         

However, point 6 is dangerous speculation.  It almost certainly is derived from intuition or “direct experience”, neither of which has been historically useful in ascertaining aspects of the behavior of “reality.”

 

AND, point 8 is highly unlikely, and ultimately, although counter-intuitively, also a dangerous view.  Human love, or any love, is a complex phenomenon more easily explained as arising in neural activity, supported by a neural network evolved by enhancing the fitness of the gene’s that generate the network.  A human may experience deep love when one opens to “it all” correctly, but this is very weak evidence that the essence of “it all” is love.

 

The reasons points 6 and 8 are very dangerous are that if (a) reality is an entity operating on its own principles, devoid of concern for human well-being, and if (b) love must be created by humans (for humans, and for other parts of reality), then we must not have faith that at “the bottom of it all” is love and consciousness.  Far more likely, at the bottom of it all is dark, empty, uncompassionate space, time, and energy. 

 

HUMANS HAVE TO STEP UP AND BE THE SOURCE OF LOVE AND COMPASSION.  These are our invention.  They are our responsibility.  They must be created by us, if they are to be created at all.  THEY ARE NOT constituent, direct parts of nature, and assuming they are leads to an ultimate “Accepting Complacency” that can allow for havoc and even ultimately, for the kind of fanaticism that justifies anything.

 

 

Ken Marton,

Caltech Ph.D., 1980, Neuroscience

[Bharath Ch]

Deepak in Vedanta we know that individual souls have sat (existence), chit (consciousness) and ananda (joy) which they derive from Supreme Absolute. This is discussed in the paper Life and consciousness - Vedantic view

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

You want to eliminate sat and ananda, and want to only emphasize consciousness. But why? We have to consider the complete being.

For consciousness to exist there should be something existing of which a being is conscious off. To be aware there should be something existing that a being is aware off.

Apart from existence and consciousness, soul also has a quality to derive happiness or joy. 

You have not answered my question about how one can develop love with something  that is formless.

[Deepak Chopra]

Formless assumes form and subject/object split to experience love --cosmic censorship and veiled non locality--Maya 

Love as ultimate truth is unity consciousness beyond subject/object split

It does not matter what Vedanta says -although I feel it is truth

Ultimately you must trust your own intuition and insight through experience 

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

The Chopra Foundation

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

---

From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com <online_sa...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:28:56 AM

[Eric Reyes]

But Deepak there is no chance for love if all consciousness is one, the same, all unity, formless. Love requires a relationship, relationship requires two, not possible with only one. "It takes two" as some soul singer sang in the '60s, can't remember who that was, maybe Marvin Gaye?

---

From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>
To: "online_sa...@googlegroups.com" <online_sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 4:33 AM

[Bharath Ch]

Deepak you have told that formless assumes form. What is the rational basis for this claim? 

To have the experience of subject/object split there must be objects available for subject to experience that split. 

You have mentioned veiled non locality as Maya. Please explain what is that which is covering our consciousness and why it is covering.

You believe that love as ultimate truth is unity consciousness beyond subject/object split. But what is that unity consciousness? We know that when someone is in love with someone then his whole attention is to satisfy the individual with whom he is in love. For love to exist multiplicity is necessary. Love also needs freedom and without that freedom love cannot exist. A robot cannot have love because it is working mechanically for some external purpose. Unlike living entities it has no freedom to execute.

You use words like Maya from Vedanta but it appears from your reply that you do not subscribe to Vedanta philosophy. Correct me if I am wrong. Vedanta teaches cultivation of pure love for Supreme Absolute which is much beyond the practice of surrender and submission. However your message indicates that you even do not subscribe to the process of submission and surrender. As your concluding remark indicates the same where you say one should only trust his own intuition and insight through experience.

[Deepak Chopra]

I don't think this is a discussion that can find a resolution in emails 

Yes I do believe that ultimate reality is formless . 

I will send you a PPT and galleys of my book with Menas Kafatos " You Are the Universe when ready . 

I believe that no system of thought - religious , philosophical or scientific can give us access to realty . 

Reality cannot be a system of thought . 

Transcendence is key 

" God's language is silence . Everything else is poor translation "

🙏🏾

[Bharath Ch]

Deepak in discussions I never seen you presenting any convincing arguments. What all you have to offer is a few quotes. You have to explain people what is your philosophy. The questions asked in my last reply are very important and you should meditate on those because you will face them again and again when you try to present your inconsistent arguments.

[Alex Hankey]

Bharath, your statement about 'offering convincing arguments' is simply out of sync with where Deepak is coming from. 

Statements of realization are far above argument and logic. The enlightened master offers her wisdom and others may listen and repeat selections of his/her statements. But wisdom is a guide to the interpretation of higher levels of experience resulting from persistent Sadhana. 

The entire structure of Sanaatana Dharma and the perennial philosophy culminate in those states of awareness that arrive when the clouds of unclarity are dissolved from the mind and intellect. 

In those states of consciousness the world is experienced differently. Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness, and such states as pure consciousness and the stabilized states of 'witness consciousness' bring a completely different experience of the nature of reality that waking state cannot imagine, but which are self-consistent and within which waking, dreaming, and sleep states can be seen to be embedded. 

[Deepak Chopra]

Thank you Alex . You are correct . Knowledge perception cognition and reality are different in different states of consciousness - Turiya Tuitiyatata Bhagvad Chetna and Brahmi Chetna all create their own realities . Enough said . 

[Kafatos, Menas]

Deepak never said that. When he uses the word Consciousness it is in the sense of Brahman or ParamaShiva of the Shaivites. Supreme Reality. Another term would be Fundamental Awareness. Of course we accept Sat-Cit-Ananda.

The English language has one word for Consciousness or just a couple. Sanskrit many more. That is part of the problem with using the word consciousness.

So the term consciousness is many times confusing as it implies an object. But pure Brahman is beyond objects and the subject-object split.

Your last question is strange. Everything in the end (and in the beginning and in the middle) is nothing but love. As Vedantist, one loves Brahman and gets to the formless through love of the forms. This is true Ananda. All the great teachers followed jnana yoga but also bahkti yoga. It is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.

Brahman is formless, the ground of all existence.


Sent from my iPhone

On May 3, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Deepak in Vedanta we know that individual souls have sat (existence), chit (consciousness) and ananda (joy) which they derive from Supreme Absolute. This is discussed in the paper Life and consciousness - Vedantic view

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138



You want to eliminate sat and ananda, and want to only emphasize consciousness. But why? We have to consider the complete being.

For consciousness to exist there should be something existing of which a being is conscious off. To be aware there should be something existing that a being is aware off.

Apart from existence and consciousness, soul also has a quality to derive happiness or joy.

You have not answered my question about how one can develop love with something that is formless.

On 03-May-2016 9:03 am, "Deepak Chopra" <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:
Consciousness is formless
It can't be seen or measured but makes experience possible
See if this helps

https://www.facebook.com/DeepakChopra/videos/10153610708910665/

Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009

[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>

On May 2, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Deepak you have told to be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom. Why do you think that formless being is the ground? How can be a being is formless?
How one can be in love with formless?

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:


How we create the universe
1 All we have access to is experience and the knowing of experience .
2 We cannot know or experience anything without awareness
2 Experience includes
Feeling
Thinking
Sensing
Perceiving
Knowing
Imagining
Intuiting
3 Experience occurs in awareness is known in awareness and made out of awareness . Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience
4 Humans created language to label experiences and objectified them thus creating the concepts of mind body universe.
5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for shapes forms and activities that formless awareness assumes .
6 The only true identity/ reality is formless being that assumes the experience of all form and phenomenon .
7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom
8 It is also pure love

Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009

[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>

From: purus...@hotmail.com<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

From: purusottama dasa<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>

Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 11:13

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

Dear Alessio,

Maybe we should first read and study the Vedanta, which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.
Then more people in this group will take us more serious!
For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do.
George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.
All the best

Peter Scherrenburg




Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------

Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>>

Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)

Aan: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com<mailto:dasharat...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Alessio Marcozzi,

It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.

Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.

On 03-Mar-2016 6:22 PM, "Alessio Marcozzi" <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear all,

I am sorry if my words sounded harsher than what I have meant them to be.
I agree with you Eric on the fact that this forum can be an excellent place to move the conversation forward.
About the 'God did it" simplification, you are right, it is a simplification.

About gravity, we are getting there!
Last year the Higgs boson was discovered, and just a few weeks ago gravitational waves coming from an unimaginable distance were measured for the first time. So, we really are getting there!

My point is, that the lack of a proper answer based on physical evidence should not be automatically accepted as a manifestation of the "metaphysic" realm.

As far the history of human-kind can tell, we have a natural tendency for making hard-to-answer questions, and the same natural tendency of coming up with very diverse answers. However, over time, we can clearly see (at least I see it) that a primordial metaphysical explanation will be substituted with a physical one. This is a hard and very painful process! I get that. It's unbelievably hard to track down all the motion of the planets, integrate their trajectory over time and come up with a decent model that can explain what we see and why it is like that (also here a simplification!).
It is obviously much more easy to say that "God did it" (again sorry for the simplification but try to bear with me).
It is more appealing also, it makes our mind free from doubts, it makes everything easy to explain (the concept of God is easily understood by a kid while the general theory of relativity it's a bit more harsh to digest), it even creates a possibility for eternal life or immortal soul so that our fear are sedated. It's a powerful and charming way to approach things.

But I feel it incomplete. It does not give any concrete explanation, it shifts the problem to 'God', it basically says something like "you are just human, you cannot know, don't bother, God knows it, you can admire him for this and that's it" (simplification again!)

Lastly, what I really felt troublesome over the year, is that different religions and philosophies give different answers or they depict very different scenarios about "God", "the beginning of things", "life", "consciousness", "the soul","the afterlife" etc. Moreover, they are very very conservative about that even though much of these -let's call it views- are geographically and culturally distinct (a strong indication of being human-made rather than god-made).
Any comment on that would be highly appreciated! How do you discriminate among different metaphysical interpretations?
In science if you have a different theory you test them and then you tend to accept the one that fits better with the measurements, for example.

So the point now is, "Is consciousness a complex thing that we may fail to describe as only physical phenomena yet, but it could very well be that in few decades we solve it as we solved the motion of the planets or is it intrinsically metaphysics? And if the latter, why so? What argument can you offer me to justify this vision?" But please, do not use as arguments the fact that someone else said that, that it is written in some ancient book or such.


Respectfully,
Alessio






On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:07 AM, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Dear Alex,
Yes and we may actually be devolving in that sense, haha. In a similar way if a human being doesn't search out the answers to where he comes from, where the universe comes from and why he exists then he could be said to devolving also. But judging from some of the statements I've been reading from the distinguished scientists, physicists and philosophers on this forum it seems that progress is being made, things are moving forwards. And when someone makes a statement like Alessio's regarding viewing simplified views that "God did it" as being based on ignorance, well that could be true of course as it is impossible to tell from a man's word alone just exactly how much understanding the man has behind the statement, whether he has in depth knowledge of God or not. Of course the subject of God or religion has been somewhat a taboo subject for scientifically minded persons in the recent past. But nowadays with the greater understanding that certain phenomena even so common as gravity defy scientific explanation, as well as the orbits/paths of certain phenomena in space, origins of consciousness etc, these escape our easy explanation, and so how can we definitively state that God doesn't exist? We can't even explain gravity definitively what to speak of God, so at least we admit that we don't know for now, and we continue our searching for answers, I think this forum is actually a good place for that.

Regards, Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.<http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM>

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org

Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org

Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga

Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga

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[Stuart Kauffman]

Deepak I have now asked you in private once and publicly 3 times: How do you account for the vast, diverse, and non-random fossil record falling into the higher taxa up to phyla and kingdoms with millions of species, 98% of which are now extinct creating those fossils?  Do you avoid this question because you  have no answer when evolutionary biology and the well estimated age of the earth of 5 billion years, and origin of life either on earth or arriving on earth some 3.5 billion years ago. This requires a classical “enough” world, not to be had though consciousness alone. Whence the reality that allows the embodied formation of organisms and their evolution to create that fossil record over 3.7 billion years, a record in the rocks, themselves dated by geology, including sedementation, radioactive dating. Should we give up all that coherent science? If not, please answer me. I truly want to know what you think. If you have no answers, then your views may have much merit, but cannot be all we need.  Respectfully, Stuart Kauffman

🙏🏾

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[Eric Reyes]

Dear all,

    With all due respect, form cannot derive from form-less, logically that's impossible. The fact that form does exist means it has always existed, and it existed originally. The implications that we apply to forms are another thing completely, which is why we are trying somehow to eliminate forms from the ultimate picture of existence, of consciousness. Our current experience of form isn't positive, but that's not to say all form is bad or negative. That's our mental imposition on the form, not the form itself. 

   Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Kafatos, Menas

<kaf...@chapman.edu> wrote:

Deepak never said that. When he uses the word Consciousness it is in the sense of Brahman or ParamaShiva of the Shaivites. Supreme Reality. Another term would be Fundamental Awareness. Of course we accept Sat-Cit-Ananda.

The English language has one word for Consciousness or just a couple. Sanskrit many more. That is part of the problem with using the word consciousness.

So the term consciousness is many times confusing as it implies an object. But pure Brahman is beyond objects and the subject-object split.

Your last question is strange. Everything in the end (and in the beginning and in the middle) is nothing but love. As Vedantist, one loves Brahman and gets to the formless through love of the forms. This is true Ananda. All the great teachers followed jnana yoga but also bahkti yoga. It is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.

Brahman is formless, the ground of all existence.


Sent from my iPhone

On May 3, 2016, at 12:33 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Deepak in Vedanta we know that individual souls have sat (existence), chit (consciousness) and ananda (joy) which they derive from Supreme Absolute. This is discussed in the paper Life and consciousness - Vedantic view

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138



You want to eliminate sat and ananda, and want to only emphasize consciousness. But why? We have to consider the complete being.

For consciousness to exist there should be something existing of which a being is conscious off. To be aware there should be something existing that a being is aware off.

Apart from existence and consciousness, soul also has a quality to derive happiness or joy.

You have not answered my question about how one can develop love with something  that is formless.

On 03-May-2016 9:03 am, "Deepak Chopra" <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:
Consciousness is formless
It can't be seen or measured but makes experience possible
See if this helps

https://www.facebook.com/DeepakChopra/videos/10153610708910665/

Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009

[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>

On May 2, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Bharath Ch <rad...@gmail.com<mailto:rad...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Deepak you have told to be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom. Why do you think that formless being is the ground? How can be a being is formless?
How one can be in love with formless?

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com<mailto:nonlo...@chopra.com>> wrote:


How we create the universe
1 All we have access to is experience and the knowing of experience .
2 We cannot know or experience anything without awareness
2 Experience includes
      Feeling
      Thinking
        Sensing
        Perceiving
        Knowing
        Imagining
        Intuiting
3 Experience occurs in awareness is known in awareness and made out of awareness . Awareness is the creator and recipient of experience
4 Humans created language to label experiences and objectified them thus creating the concepts of mind body universe.
5 Mind Body Space Time Particles Forces and Fields are names for  shapes forms and activities that formless awareness assumes .
6 The only true identity/ reality  is formless being that assumes the experience of all form and phenomenon .
7 To be grounded in formless being is to know reality and is both awakening and freedom
8 It is also pure love

Deepak Chopra
2013 Costa Del Mar Road
Carlsbad, CA 92009

[cid:]
Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing<http://www.amazon.com/Super-Genes-Astonishing-Optimum-Well-Being/dp/0804140138/deepakchcom07-20>

From: purus...@hotmail.com<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>
To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

From: purusottama dasa<mailto:purus...@hotmail.com>

Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 11:13

To: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

Dear Alessio,

Maybe we should first read and study the  Vedanta,  which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.
Then more  people in this group will take us more serious!
For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do.
George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.
All the best

Peter Scherrenburg




Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------

Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>>

Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)

Aan: Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com<mailto:dasharat...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Alessio Marcozzi,

It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.

Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.

On 03-Mar-2016 6:22 PM, "Alessio Marcozzi" <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio....@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear all,

I am sorry if my words sounded harsher than what I have meant them to be.
I agree with you Eric on the fact that this forum can be an excellent place to move the conversation forward.
About the 'God did it" simplification, you are right, it is a simplification.

About gravity, we are getting there!
Last year the Higgs boson was discovered, and just a few weeks ago gravitational waves coming from an unimaginable distance were measured for the first time. So, we really are getting there!

My point is, that the lack of a proper answer based on physical evidence should not be automatically accepted as a manifestation of the "metaphysic" realm.

As far the history of human-kind can tell, we have a natural tendency for making hard-to-answer questions, and the same natural tendency of coming up with very diverse answers. However, over time, we can clearly see (at least I see it) that a primordial metaphysical explanation will be substituted with a physical one. This is a hard and very painful process! I get that. It's unbelievably hard to track down all the motion of the planets, integrate their trajectory over time and come up with a decent model that can explain what we see and why it is like that (also here a simplification!).
It is obviously much more easy to say that "God did it" (again sorry for the simplification but try to bear with me).
It is more appealing also, it makes our mind free from doubts, it makes everything easy to explain (the concept of God is easily understood by a kid while the general theory of relativity it's a bit more harsh to digest), it even creates a possibility for eternal life or immortal soul so that our fear are sedated. It's a powerful and charming way to approach things.

But I feel it incomplete. It does not give any concrete explanation, it shifts the problem to 'God', it basically says something like "you are just human, you cannot know, don't bother, God knows it, you can admire him for this and that's it" (simplification again!)

Lastly, what I really felt troublesome over the year, is that different religions and philosophies give different answers or they depict very different scenarios about "God", "the beginning of things", "life", "consciousness", "the soul","the afterlife" etc. Moreover, they are very very conservative about that even though much of these -let's call it views- are geographically and culturally distinct (a strong indication of being human-made rather than god-made).
Any comment on that would be highly appreciated! How do you discriminate among different metaphysical interpretations?
In science if you have a different theory you test them and then you tend to accept the one that fits better with the measurements, for example.

So the point now is, "Is consciousness a complex thing that we may fail to describe as only physical phenomena yet, but it could very well be that in few decades we solve it as we solved the motion of the planets or is it intrinsically metaphysics? And if the latter, why so? What argument can you offer me to justify this vision?" But please, do not use as arguments the fact that someone else said that, that it is written in some ancient book or such.


Respectfully,
Alessio






On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:07 AM, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Dear Alex,
    Yes and we may actually be devolving in that sense, haha. In a similar way if a human being doesn't search out the answers to where he comes from, where the universe comes from and why he exists then he could be said to devolving also. But judging from some of the statements I've been reading from the distinguished scientists, physicists and philosophers on this forum it seems that progress is being made, things are moving forwards. And when someone makes a statement like Alessio's regarding viewing simplified views that "God did it" as being based on ignorance, well that could be true of course as it is impossible to tell from a man's word alone just exactly how much understanding the man has behind the statement, whether he has in depth knowledge of God or not. Of course the subject of God or religion has been somewhat a taboo subject for scientifically minded persons in the recent past. But nowadays with the greater understanding that certain phenomena even so common as gravity defy scientific explanation, as well as the orbits/paths of certain phenomena in space, origins of consciousness etc, these escape our easy explanation, and so how can we definitively state that God doesn't exist? We can't even explain gravity definitively what to speak of God, so at least we admit that we don't know for now, and we continue our searching for answers, I think this forum is actually a good place for that.

Regards,  Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android<https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android>

You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.<http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM>

[The entire original message is not included.]

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----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

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----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org

Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org

Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga

Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate

Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer

Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org

Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org

Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin

Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions

Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga

Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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[Mark McMenamin]

Stuart Kaufman is correct to emphasize the great duration of geologic time and the accompanying history of life. But we must also keep in mind that we see only a limited part of the whole. There exists a complex and critical backstory that transcends all of our naturalistic notions (but is necessarily concordant with them). This backstory involves the creation of consciousness(es), one or more falls from grace, and slippage (or outright transgression) between ordinarily separate states of being. Forging ahead, we will be required to maintain distinction between created, willed consciousness and uncreated consciousness.

 

May the Fourth be with you,

 

Mark

[Bharath Ch]

Stuart I agree with you that Deepak needs to answer how from formless forms can come. The explanation of Vedanta is important which is discussed by Dr. Shanta at http://dx.doi.org/10.13140/RG.2.1.4409.4808

Life intrinsically preserves its species type. Darwinian objective evolution theory using the laws of physics and chemistry cannot explain why species like, bacteria, fish, frogs, banyan trees, lions and so on appeared. On the other hand, the conception of Vedānta holds that different forms (species) are original archetypes that accommodate different varieties of consciousness through which the transmigration of the soul (ātma) takes places on the basis of the evolution of consciousness. 

For example, Viṣṇu Purāṇa states, 

“jala-jā nava-lakṣāṇi sthāvarā lakṣa-viḿśati kṛmayo rudra-sańkhyakāḥ pakṣiṇāḿ daśa-lakṣaṇam triḿśal-lakṣāṇi paśavaḥ catur-lakṣāṇi mānuṣāḥ  

– There are 900,000 species living in the water. There are also 2,000,000 non-moving living entities (sthāvara), such as trees and plants. There are also 1,100,000 species of insects and reptiles, and there are 1,000,000 species of birds. As far as quadrupeds are concerned, there are 3,000,000 varieties, and there are 400,000 human species.” 

According to Vedānta,  species identification and classification are based on a cognitive paradigm, where the body is a biological expression of the consciousness of the soul (ātma). Therefore, the different species described in above verse are representations of different varieties of consciousness. The transmigration of the soul (ātma) is described in Bhagavad-gītā 8.6: yaḿ yaḿ vāpi smaran bhāvaḿ tyajanty ante kalevaram taḿ tam evaiti kaunteya sadā tad bhāva-bhāvitaḥ  – “The soul (ātma) obtains a body in next life based on the consciousness in which it left the previous body.” 

Also Deepak needs to explain the denial of individuality of the different living entities. This is also explained in http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Quoting Vedānta, Schrödinger was mainly trying to explain that consciousness is only one, singular, identifiable with its universal source (Brahman) and he believed that the perceived spatial and temporal plurality of consciousness is merely an appearance or illusion (māyā). However, it is a common misconception that is found among the monists (Sripad Adi Shankaracharya's Kevala Advaita or Māyāvādā philosophy) in Indian Vedāntic tradition. The verse 2.12,30,31 from Śrīmad Bhagavad-gīta completely refutes the idea of singularity of consciousness, where Bhagavān Sri Krishna says to Arjuna: “na tv evāhaḿ jātu nāsaḿ na tvaḿ neme janādhipāh na caiva na bhaviṣyāmah sarve vayam atah param – Never was there a time when you, I or all these kings did not exist, just as we exist in the present, so have we existed in the past, so shall we continue to exist in the future.” 

Therefore, according to the Vedāntic view, the plurality of individuals is an eternal fact, and it is confirmed in other Vedic sources (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13 says: nityo nityānāḿ cetanaś cetanānām – We are eternal, we are many, and Supreme Absolute is also eternal, but He is one) and by authentic teachers like Sripad Ramanuja Acharya and other Vaiṣṇava Ācāryas. NPR also reported in 2010, “there are 10 times more microbial cells on and in our bodies than there are human cells. That means that we're 90 percent microbial and 10 percent human…”32 Apart from our own individuality, we must also accept the individualities of all those microbes on and in our bodies. We cannot deny the individuality of all those microbes, by stating that their individuality is mere illusion (māyā). 

In the healthy body of a multicellular organism, every individual cell, despite having its own individuality, is meant to work for the welfare of the whole body. Similarly, Vedānta advocates that we are living in an ‘Organic Whole’ and every individual unit of this whole is meant to dedicate itself for the satisfaction of the Center – the ādi-puruṣa or primeval personal Absolute. In contrast to Darwinism, symbiogenesis proclaims that life did not take over the globe by competition, but by cooperation. In the body of an organism, there are different organs like heart, kidneys, lungs and so on, which perform different tasks to serve the function of the body as a whole. One organ does not try to become another. In the similar manner, different living entities and also their environment are related to each other like an organic whole. Evidence in symbiotic exchanges confirms that the sphere of life is like a net, with the different species representing the nodes of that net (network). If changes occur in the network as a whole, then the various nodes (species) change accordingly, to maintain the harmony of the network of life. This viewpoint is completely ignored by many modern evolutionists.

[Deepak Chopra]

Should read " we should not give up doing science just realize that science itself is an activity in consciousness- useful but fundamentally artificial because it's based on a subject/ object split - reality is non dual - one "

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

On May 5, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:

Stuart I thought I answered in a previous communication 

If the perceptual world is a representation of a process in consciousness then biological organisms including the human body brain and genes have no privileged status 

We are all species of consciousness like branches of a tree . The evolution of species is the evolution of species of consciousness. Consciousness is not personal. Your own body mind is an experience in that non local awareness . It also happens to be your ground state . 

No we should not give up found science just realize that science itself is an activity of consciousness 

Science supports this 

I'm inviting Don Hoffman comment 

He uses evolutionary theory to explain these points  perhaps a little differently 

Best 

[Søren Brier]

Dear Stuart

 

Nice to meet yo0u in Tucson. Do you not agree that every cosmogony needs to describe a process for the emergence  of form through development processes one way or the other. The form can only have existed as potential and then emerged with the development of the Cosmos.

 

Best

                             Søren

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[Stuart Kauffman]

Thank you Deepak. I appreciate your reply but do not see how what you say explains the emergence of the observed specific set of higher taxa, let alone the very phenomenon of the existence not only of species but their similarities allowing the very concept of the higher taxa. I’m glad to hear your thoughts. Why would the evolution of consciousness that you note, and which surely must have occurred, also yield the higher taxa with the concomitant and partially independent evolution of morphologies, bones, clam shells, and so forth? Best, Stu

On May 5, 2016, at 4:01 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:

Stuart I thought I answered in a previous communication 

If the perceptual world is a representation of a process in consciousness then biological organisms including the human body brain and genes have no privileged status 

We are all species of consciousness like branches of a tree . The evolution of species is the evolution of species of consciousness. Consciousness is not personal. Your own body mind is an experience in that non local awareness . It also happens to be your ground state . 

No we should not give up found science just realize that science itself is an activity of consciousness 

Science supports this 

I'm inviting Don Hoffman comment 

He uses evolutionary theory to explain these points  perhaps a little differently 

Best 

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

On May 4, 2016, at 10:02 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stuka...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Deepak Chopra]

Evolutionary time is a blink in the eye of cosmic consciousness 

[Deepak Chopra]

Evolution is the expression of consciousness for maximum diversity in life forms using the raw material of qualia . 

Consciousness expresses itself thru the principles of 

Self Organization 

Self Regulation 

Evolution 

Complementarity 

Sentience or creative interactivity 

Recursion 

I'm copying Menas Neil Subhash and Don who helped create some of these ideas 
🙏🏾

[Mark McMenamin]

Deepak, is not the point of the self-organization concept the inference that it does not require consciousness?

[Dasharath patel]

Dear Deepak,

If consciousness uses raw material of quality then that already represent multiplicity. There is something else existing apart from consciousness that the being is conscious off.

Which evolution you are talking about and why consciousness should have a goal of diversity? There is a small one (micro) and the big one (macro). We see the micro (evolution) one happening with the aging. This is what Vedanta says and Bhagavat-gita explains that our subtle body (mind, intelligence and ego) is responsible for the changes in the gross body. Subtle body carries the soul from one gross body to another.

I agree with Soren. We see different structures (machine parts, buildings, etc) are being created by our mind. Mind is necessary for creation of form. The being who has mind has also a form. So there is no question of being having mind without form. Obviously Vedanta explains that the forms of higher entities are of different nature than the one we see in this material world. Therefore the concept of "Subjective Evolution of Consciousness" discussed in the paper 'Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view' is very important http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

Vedānta holds that different forms (species) are original archetypes that accommodate different varieties of consciousness through which the transmigration of the soul (ātman) takes place on the basis of the evolution of consciousness. The body is a biological illusion of the consciousness of the soul (ātman) and from an amoeba to a human being, all the different varieties of forms are representations of different stages of conditioned consciousness. Following an endless cycle of birth and death (‘transmigration of the soul’ or Metempsychosis in Greek), the soul (ātman) keeps on wandering in different grades of conditioned states of consciousness (subjective evolution of consciousness) by obtaining a body suitable to that consciousness until it attains the pure consciousness.

[Murty Hari]

'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. wrote: 

- there is no chance for love if all consciousness is one, the same, all unity, formless. Love requires a relationship, relationship requires two, not possible with only one.

My response:  When we are awake, we are constantly aware of something or other.  Is that something necessarily different from us?  We say it is different if it is an external object from which we receive sensory signals.  What about a past experience which you become aware of again when you recall it?  You may say it is only a part of you and therefore different from you.  So these are things which are different from you and you are aware of them.  But you are also aware of your existence, which you may call self-awareness.  Is your existence different from you?  If you keep questioning like this, you arrive at a point when you realize that you are aware of yourself and that you are both the subject and the object of knowing.  

In the case of love, you love yourself, don't you?  Actually, when you love another being without expecting anything whatsoever in return, in your awareness, you are identifying yourself completely with that being   although outwardly you two have different physical bodies. 

 We all heard of the expression “to put oneself in somebody else’s shoes”.  For example, sometimes, when a friend is in financial troubles, we may sympathize and try to help. Other times, we do not feel the same sympathy and may just pass a judgment like “he should not have spent beyond his means” or some other such remark. Compassion and sympathy indicate that we have identified with the other person and felt his/her anguish and wish that the problem would go away just like he/she does; we have put our feet in the other person's shoes. When we are not compassionate or sympathetic, we have separated ourselves from the other person; their problem is not ours. Usually we identify our­selves with our immediate families; we are happy when they are all happy, we are sad when any of them is not doing well. Similarly, love is the elimination of "two" and merger into oneness inwardly but not necessarily in outward appearance.

Best

Syamala Hari

---

From: "'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D." <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
To: "Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com" <Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 9:18 AM

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

But Deepak there is no chance for love if all consciousness is one, the same, all unity, formless. Love requires a relationship, relationship requires two, not possible with only one. "It takes two" as some soul singer sang in the '60s, can't remember who that was, maybe Marvin Gaye?

--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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You both want people to accept that life and consciousness evolved from nonliving or that which is not conscious. But what is the basis for this suggestion? Just faith! Where is the evidence for life or consciousness appearing from something that is nonliving or not conscious? Vedantic scholars have the evidence for the claim that life appears from life or consciousness appears from consciousness. That is the reason they do not accept the opposite – life appearing from nonliving or matter which is not conscious. Life is not a mere physical entity and that is why we cannot copy the nature of one person and load it in another. But it can be done in a computer where we can copy the sw and load it in another. As one of the theme of ‘Science and Scientist 2016’ explains ‘Difference Between Organism and Machine’ http://scsiscs.org/conference/index.php/scienceandscientist/index/pages/view/DBOM

[The entire original message is not included.]

--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science

Princeton, NJ, USA: http://bviscs.org/
 
Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org/

 
Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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[Stuart Kauffman]

Hi Soren, I’d like to believe in a presettable kind of platonic world of potential forms. The problem for me is this: The universe has created all possible, (known) atoms. But above the level of the atom, the universe will create only a tiny fraction of all possible molecules with 100,000 atoms each of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and suffer, (chops) the atoms of organic molecules, The universe is vastly nonergodic above the level of atoms. At last we can use quantum mechanics to try to state what these molecules are but do not yet know how even to count them. Now what about organs and organ systems, and morphologies, literally “forms”. We we even conceive of what these forms are before hand? I think not and thus this “platonic realm” cannot be formulated. But morphologies emerge in evolution, ever forming out of what already exists and new variants, so the fin became the limb. Hope this is both roughly right and helpful. It may be neither. Best, Stu

[Stuart Kauffman]

Well, ok, but life has been on earth almost 4 billion of the 14 billion years since the big bang, we think. A long blink que no? :)stu

On May 5, 2016, at 6:18 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:

Evolutionary time is a blink in the eye of cosmic consciousness 

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

On May 4, 2016, at 10:33 PM, Mark McMenamin <mmcm...@mtholyoke.edu> wrote:

Stuart Kaufman is correct to emphasize the great duration of geologic time and the accompanying history of life. But we must also keep in mind that we see only a limited part of the whole. There exists a complex and critical backstory that transcends all of our naturalistic notions (but is necessarily concordant with them). This backstory involves the creation of consciousness(es), one or more falls from grace, and slippage (or outright transgression) between ordinarily separate states of being. Forging ahead, we will be required to maintain distinction between created, willed consciousness and uncreated consciousness.

 

May the Fourth be with you,

 

Mark

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Stuart Kauffman <stuka...@gmail.com> wrote:

Deepak I have now asked you in private once and publicly 3 times: How do you account for the vast, diverse, and non-random fossil record falling into the higher taxa up to phyla and kingdoms with millions of species, 98% of which are now extinct creating those fossils?  Do you avoid this question because you  have no answer when evolutionary biology and the well estimated age of the earth of 5 billion years, and origin of life either on earth or arriving on earth some 3.5 billion years ago. This requires a classical “enough” world, not to be had though consciousness alone. Whence the reality that allows the embodied formation of organisms and their evolution to create that fossil record over 3.7 billion years, a record in the rocks, themselves dated by geology, including sedementation, radioactive dating. Should we give up all that coherent science? If not, please answer me. I truly want to know what you think. If you have no answers, then your views may have much merit, but cannot be all we need.  Respectfully, Stuart Kauffman

On May 4, 2016, at 4:40 AM, Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com> wrote:

Thank you Alex . You are correct . Knowledge perception cognition and reality are different in different states of consciousness - Turiya Tuitiyatata Bhagvad Chetna and Brahmi Chetna all create their own realities . Enough said . 

🙏🏾

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

[Deepak Chopra]

Life as potential has always existed 

Consciousness = Immeasurable potential of all there was all there is and all there will be . 

Life as formless consciousness is not in time . It's expressions including biological forms are in time 

[Deepak Chopra]

Stu 

Everything you describe from atoms to organs to elements and forces in the universe are human cognitive and perceptual experiences- modes of perceiving knowing sensing perceiving in awareness/ consciousness. 

That includes your own body and mind . 

"Humans have a tendency to reify experience and interpretation of experience - flat earth, geocentric universe and now physicalism " (Hoffman )

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

[Dasharath patel]

Yes I agree. When we love someone then we try to satisfy the individual whom we love. There is oneness in that and that oneness is making someone's satisfactions' as ours. That is what Vedanta talks about. Yoga means to eliminate our self centered (false self) life and make it centered around Supreme Absolute. The individual soul when develops pure consciousness, in that consciousness it only tries to satisfy the Supreme Absolute. Some monists and in our present discussion Deepak seem to misunderstand this unity and they assume it is an elimination of individuality.

As I have mentioned about the subjective evolution of consciousness in the previous reply quoting paper http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

{Vedānta holds that different forms (species) are original archetypes that accommodate different varieties of consciousness through which the transmigration of the soul (ātman) takes place on the basis of the evolution of consciousness. The body is a biological illusion of the consciousness of the soul (ātman) and from an amoeba to a human being, all the different varieties of forms are representations of different stages of conditioned consciousness. Following an endless cycle of birth and death (‘transmigration of the soul’ or Metempsychosis in Greek), the soul (ātman) keeps on wandering in different grades of conditioned states of consciousness (subjective evolution of consciousness) by obtaining a body suitable to that consciousness until it attains the pure consciousness.}

Here pure consciousness means cultivation of pure love for Supreme Absolute and in this state we find that the desire's of individual soul is inline with that of Supreme Absolute, yet the individuality is maintained.

[Stuart Kauffman]

Hi Deepak, suppose I try to accept your view. All we know derives from human cognitive and perceputal processes. Of course that is true. But it remains astonishing that the rocks in the Grand Canyon contain fossils arrayed from the preCambrian up to perhaps the Jurassic or later, of increasing diversity and complexity. We can add the Burgess Shale with respect to the Pre Cambrian array of early fossils. And 600 million years ago multi celled fossils are found that are much simpler in form that those of the Burgess Shale. Why, derived only from the fact that we know the world via our experiences of it, should we ever expect this array of forms? And do we think the forms preexisted the big bang? Maybe? Stu

[BT APJ]

Dear All:

"All that is stated is stated by a conscious agent" (paraphrase of H. Maturana´s famous statement): This is obviously true, and wise.

"All that is stated by a conscious agent is about consciousness" (paraphrase of the Deepak et al. view): This is probably false, because we make statements about other beings that do not display any sign of being conscious, e.g. rocks.

In sum, do not confuse "by" with "about"!

Best Regards,

Alfredo Pereira Jr.

[Søren Brier]

I believe so too and it is pretty close to Peirce’s view of Firstness as the unmanifest source of forms and qualia = types emerging as concrete signs = tokens. Signification is the exchange of forms. I pretty much see “particles” in quantum physics the same way: as tokens of unmanifest general forms.

 

   Best

                          Søren

[Deepak Chopra]

Consciousness is that in which experience occurs , in which experience is known and out of which experience is made including the experience of that which we call our body/ mind 

There is only experience and the knowing of experience 

The rest is a story also a self created experience 

Deepak Chopra

2013 Costa Del Mar Road

Carlsbad, CA 92009

 

Super Genes: Unlock the Astonishing Power of Your DNA for Optimum Health and Wellbeing

 

[Deepak Chopra]

Stu 

The fossil record is accurate ! It's an experience and a human interpretation of that experience .

These biological organisms existed in the same way as you and I - existing as perceptual and cognitive experiences in consciousness. Consciousness is not our personal property . We experience the fossil record now in  awareness in the same way as we experience our own body mind now - in awareness- as an intermittent stream of sensations images feelings thoughts perceptions and knowing. 

Matter including rocks is an interpretation of that experience ( in human consciousness) 

The dog in the White House does not know that Obama is the President of the White House ) 

That's a story invented by humans as is nationality , gods , money , religion , race , latitude , longitude , taxonomy etc 

Science is a human story invented in human consciousness. 

Raw experience is a species specific qualia collection of sensations images feelings perceptions and in humans,  the knowing and interpreting of that experience . ( I'm using language to explain the inexplicable inscrutable without name and form )

The rest is a story - a useful story for creating technology both for our benefit and our ultimate extinction - climate change , eco destruction , extinction of species , atomic weapons, mechanized death etc .

- not for knowing Truth ( capital T ) 

The story is a model of reality not reality . 

Reality = Existence + Awareness of  Existence - period !

We gave names to perceived forms which are the arising and subsiding of phenomenon in formless awareness. 

By buying into the "reality " of name and form we got bamboozled into the superstition of matter . 

Science Religion Theology Philosophy are stories . 

Reality is most wonderfully inexplicable . 

[BT APJ]

Dear Depak and All:
Experience is an interaction of an agent with the world and can be unconscious - therefore it is not inside consciousness.

Only when some sign of a experience becomes conscious we can say that it (the sign, not the experience) is inside consciousness.
The fossils were buried in rock before we became conscious of them.

The only experience that can be thought of as being completely inside consciousness is thinking of thinking, but in this regard there are good arguments

against the Cartesian argumentative strategy (self-consciousness as a foundation for all knowledge) by Edmund Husserl  in "Cartesian Meditations".

Best,

Alfredo

[Stuart Kauffman]

From below: "The fossils were buried in rock before we became conscious of them.” My point also Stu Kauffman

[Bhakti Vijnana Muni, PhD]

Consciousness contributes to objects that we perceive in our experience. In that sense the object is a construct of consciousness. At the same time the object also contributes to our consciousness. We are only experiencing the appearance. But we do not see the actual object, but only its appearance. We are in contact with our consciousness. We do not really know what is the cause of those sensations. We may impose our atomic model but in reality we do not know what it is. 

As Consciousness is also constructing to the object our effort must be focused towards reconstructing what consciousness has constructed from conscious level through our knowledge. This means a new science has to be brought out  where both knowledge and the known is the object of our knowledge. That relation is really the object of scientific inquiry. QM is an advancement in this sense that it has taken Science to an understanding that we are really dealing with the science of the knowledge of the known rather that the science of the known. Knowledge and the known are not divorced from each other. Hegel says they are dialectically related always. Therefore objects are never mind independent. 

Bhaktivijnana Muni, PhD

[Sisir Adhikari]

Dear Deepak,

But certainly "memory" is more fundamental in " experience". 

Kind regards,

S.k.Adhikari,Ph.D

Retired 

Sent from my iPad

[Dr. Bhakti Niskama Shanta]

Dear Dr. Deepak Chopra Ji

Namaskar.

You have told "Science Religion Theology Philosophy are stories. Reality is most wonderfully inexplicable." 

It is true that finite (individual living entities) cannot conquer true infinite (Supreme Absolute) by its own ability. At the same time the infinite is not true infinite (having a boundary - *cannot*) if it cannot reveal itself to the finite. We cannot know the reality by an aggressive approach - "I can know by my own power of knowing". Science, Religion, Theology, Philosophy, can be mere stories, if they are outcome of this mere aggressive (or ego-centric) approach. That is why it is very important to understand the five epistemological levels discussed in Vedānta. We have discussed it in our paper: Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?    

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?

[1]   Shanta, B.N., 2015, Life and consciousness – The Vedantic view., Communicative & Integrative Biology, 8(5), e1085138; http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138 [2]
View on article.sapub.org	Preview by Yahoo

There are five epistemological levels in Vedānta [103]:

(i) pratyakṣa: This is the knowledge acquired from faith in one’s own direct sense perceptions. What we experience through our own senses is considered the first stage of knowledge and is the lowest form of knowledge.

(ii) parokṣa: parokṣa means others. As compared to pratyakṣa this is a higher form of knowledge. It is the knowledge from faith in other’s sense perception. This knowledge is not gained directly from our own senses but is gathered from other’s sense experience. For example we gather knowledge by having faith on the inventions and discoveries of scientists.

(iii) aparokṣa: A kind of hazy knowledge coming from self, where the object of knowledge and subject become indistinguishable. This kind of experience is called aparokṣa, which is indistinct. In this experience the subject and material object come together, and the material object vanishes in the subject. Sripad Madhvacharya has given the explanation of aparokṣa experience from the example of a deep and dreamless sleep. In the state of sound dreamless sleep the gross senses (taste, aroma, touch, sight and sound) are not active and even the mind (the impulse, which acts through these gross senses) remains dormant. However, on awakening from such a sleep, one still has the tangible recollection that he has had the experience of sleeping soundly and also that time had passed. Therefore, Sripad Madhvacharya argued in his dialectical system of philosophy calledŚuddha-Dvaita-Vāda that there is a knowing ability in the self (which we intuit as ‘I’) that are distinct from the abilities coming from the five sensory organs as well as mind. This domain of knowledge that comes from self is called aparokṣa. One must note here the distinction between Sripad Sankaracharya and Sripad Madhvacharya. According to Sripad Sankaracharya, although the soul (ātman) is there, it has no determinations and it is unknowable, indescribable and there are no distinctions there. Therefore, followers of Sripad Sankaracharya insist that a process of unaided dry meditation on a so called unknowable self is the only means for overcoming the material plane of existence. On the other hand, Sripad Madhvacharya has made it clear that there are a multitude of souls (ātmans) and that the ātman can know itself, as well as let itself be known by other souls (ātmans), because it can do so from the plane of self-knowing by its internal determinations, or aparokṣa plane of experiencing. Therefore, monists have a wrong notion that soul (ātman) is indescribable, because, soul (ātman) does have determinate qualities and is thus describable.

(iv) adhokṣaja: According to Sripad Ramanuja Acharya and other Vaiṣṇava Ācāryas there is a fourth stage beyond the plane of aparokṣa stage and that is called the adhokṣaja or the transcendental plane. This system of knowledge is beyond the scope of the senses (both the gross as well as the subtle senses). Adhah means above and akṣaja means eye or the knowing organ, and hence adhokṣaja means that, which is coming from above the knowing organ of the self or soul (ātman). It is the knowledge coming down from above the plane of self or from the supramental and super-subjective plane (known as Vaikuṇṭha) and it is transcendental knowledge. This superior knowledge can force down all our knowledge of the experience of this mundane world. Here the subject is underground and the object of knowledge in above the ground. It comes on its own accord to the level of our gross or subtle understanding. If it withdraws we are unable to have it and we become helpless in this. We cannot force our own entry into that plane. This kind of knowledge is not within our fists and it is the fourth plane of consciousness, it is grand, all powerful and all inspiring. Thus the Absolute is not within our control.

(v) aprākṛta: This is the stage of continuous transcendental life in plane of love of Godhead. Here the controlling factors are mercy, pity and love. A king has no need to play with an ordinary boy in the street and yet love can make it possible. Therefore, the Absolute independent cognizant being can agree to play with even the most insignificant living entity due to the controlling power of love. This is the full-fledged theistic conception, which is only found in Goloka Vṛndāvana. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers discussed this stage of experience, which is very similar to this mundane world, yet is not mundane. Vedic literature explains that the mundane world or ‘illusory world’ is a perverted reflection of the world of absolute.

At the present state of extreme perplexities modern science can be greatly benefited if it can try to systematically study the five epistemological levels explained in Vedānta.

Sincerely,

Bhakti Niskama Shanta, Ph.D.                     Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute
+91-(9748906907)	Donate  www.scsiscs.org
#8, Gopalakrishnan Mansion, Konappana Agrahara, Electronic City, Bangalore, Karnataka, India

Fra: 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. [mailto:Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com]

Sendt: 4. maj 2016 21:21

Til: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com; Kafatos, Menas; Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com

Emne: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

 

Dear all,

 

    With all due respect, form cannot derive from form-less, logically that's impossible. The fact that form does exist means it has always existed, and it existed originally. The implications that we apply to forms are another thing completely, which is why we are trying somehow to eliminate forms from the ultimate picture of existence, of consciousness. Our current experience of form isn't positive, but that's not to say all form is bad or negative. That's our mental imposition on the form, not the form itself. 

 

   Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:58 AM, Kafatos, Menas

<kaf...@chapman.edu> wrote:

Deepak never said that. When he uses the word Consciousness it is in the sense of Brahman or ParamaShiva of the Shaivites. Supreme Reality. Another term would be Fundamental Awareness. Of course we accept Sat-Cit-Ananda.

The English language has one word for Consciousness or just a couple. Sanskrit many more. That is part of the problem with using the word consciousness.

So the term consciousness is many times confusing as it implies an object. But pure Brahman is beyond objects and the subject-object split.

Your last question is strange. Everything in the end (and in the beginning and in the middle) is nothing but love. As Vedantist, one loves Brahman and gets to the formless through love of the forms. This is true Ananda. All the great teachers followed jnana yoga but also bahkti yoga. It is all explained in the Bhagavad Gita.

Brahman is formless, the ground of all existence.


Sent from my iPhone

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu...@googlegroups.com>

From: purusottama dasa<mailto:purusotdasa@hotmail.com>

Sent: ‎04/‎03/‎2016 11:13

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

Dear Alessio,

Maybe we should first read and study the  Vedanta,  which are very compatible with science if we are willing though, to rid ourselves from the very simple and childish concepts we are displaying about God.
Then more  people in this group will take us more serious!
For various reasons scientist are unwilling to take the effort to do do.
George Wald, among many others, did take that couragious and honest decision.
All the best

Peter Scherrenburg




Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


-------- Oorspronkelijk bericht --------

Van: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com<mailto:alessio.marcozzi@gmail.com>>

Datum:03-03-2016 19:55 (GMT+01:00)

Aan: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com<mailto:Online_Sadhu...@googlegroups.com>

Cc:
Onderwerp: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

I suggest everyone to listen to this talk and write some comment about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHKwIYsPXLg

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Dasharath patel <dasharat...@gmail.com<mailto:dasharath.b.patel@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Alessio Marcozzi,

It has been highlighted in this e-group several times that there is no empirical method to know the history. Many times it is being said that there is no scientific method to know our date of birth or our father if no one gives us any direction or hints. I agree to this and I hope you must also agree with the same, if you are humble enough to embrace the humility. If someone disagrees with this human limitation then please explain me a method by which we can know the history.

Many scientists do not feel shame to claim that dull (senseless objects) chemicals and forces did the miracle to produce Sun, Moon, Bacteria, Human, etc and they want to be critical to those who have faith on God. If God is the first life as the proponents of Vedanta philosophy claim (because life and matter are coming from life so there is first life which is called God in religion) then it is only from God we can know the History and truth as He wishes to reveal to the individuals. There is no other way. We may make a show of great arrogance that we are big scientists and we can unearth the truth but that arrogance cannot lead us to know the origins. We have to be humble and that is what the studies in origin of life and universe are leading to.

On 2 March 2016 at 17:01, 'Eric Reyes' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D. <Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Dear Alessio
    You admit that we don't know what was before the Big Bang, but then use the example that 1000 years ago we didn't know where the sun and moon came from, but that now we do know? Logically that doesn't make much sense because of course we are assuming that the Big Bang preceded the sun and moon's existence right? It's a little like someone who has no knowledge at all of how produce grows in the fields of a farm, but explains to people that we now know where zucchini squash come from, that the grocery store is the origin of zucchini squash, something like that. Unless you understand how the squash plants grow in the fields you don't really understand where the zucchini come from. Same for the universe, if one doesn't know the origin of matter itself, how can one truly know the origin of the sun and moon and planets?

  Regards,  Eric Reyes


________________________________
From: Alessio Marcozzi <alessio....@gmail.com>

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga@googlegroups.com

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--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

Life and consciousness – The Ved?ntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138

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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191

Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03

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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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[Eric Reyes]

Dear Syamala,

    It is true that we may sympathize with another person, that we may care for and protect another person as we care for ourselves. But that does not mean that we ARE the other person. They have an identity and we have our own identity, we never merge to R identities together. If we were all the same person how would there be any interaction, at all? Conversation? Love? Variety? Why would you be addressing me? And I you? If we were the same person? Where would that necessity be?

    Eric Reyes

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 6:21 AM, 'Murty Hari' via Sadhu-Sanga Under the holy association of Spd. B.M. Puri Maharaja, Ph.D.

<Online_Sa...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

[kumar bhatt]

Deepak,
You say -
Consciousness is formless 

It can't be seen or measured but makes experience possible 

See if this helps

so too is all experience formless.
but is it?


yes, consciousness has not been 'measured'.

does this mean that there are NO MEASURES of consciousness?

are there no neural correlates that distinguish between
a 'conscious' and an 'unconscious' state of a person?

[lev landau the famous physicist wrote nice small books on physics for 'layman'. he starts with a statement that

'A grammatically correct statement need not always have a meaning.'

He follows this with an example -

'The sentence, " Water is triangular" is meaningless.'

because water has no form.
it takes up the form of any thing that contains it.]

all our neural activities are orchestrated by Electromagnetic fields.

These fields can not be 'seen' but their 'effects' can be 'measured'.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT NO AMOUNT OF CONSCIOUSNESS ALONE CAN CREATE ANY EXPERIENCE WITHOUT THE EXPLICIT HELP OF THESE

FIELDS.

So I am confused. How consciousness alone can 'CREATE' experience without the MATERIAL basis with all its subtle properties that are still far from being completely understood. And almost all such properties are formless.

[Coming to think of it our EXPERIENCE of a FORM of an object is FORMLESS. The object may have a form but not our experience of it.]

Lastly, you say,

'See if this helps.'

If i say YES, IT HELPS, i will be experiencing an illusion without being fully conscious of it!

If I say NO, IT DOES NOT, i will be experiencing my ignorance,

SEE IF THIS HELPS to convey my difficulties.

regards

kumar

[The entire original message is not included.]

--
----------------------------
Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
Life and consciousness – The Vedāntic view: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2015.1085138
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Darwin Under Siege: http://scienceandscientist.org/Darwin
 
Online Classes: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga/about/#instructions
 
Sadhu-Sanga MP3s: http://mahaprabhu.net/satsanga
 
Contact: http://scsiscs.org/contact
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
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Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Fourth International Conference 'Science and Scientist - 2016'
August 26 — 27, 2016, Bangalore University
http://scsiscs.org/conference/scienceandscientist/2016
 
Reply to Gustavo Caetano-Anollés: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19420889.2016.1160191
 
Why Biology is Beyond Physical Sciences?: http://dx.doi.org/10.5923/j.als.20160601.03
 
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Donate: http://scienceandscientist.org/donate
 
Harmonizer: http://scienceandscientist.org/harmonizer
 
Bhakti Vedanta Institute of Spiritual Culture & Science
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Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Institute: http://scsiscs.org
 

[Bernardo Kastrup]

Alfredo, there is so much question-begging here it is hard to know where to start! "Experience without consciousness"? This seems very peculiar. I guess what you mean is "unconscious neural activity," which is fine but assumes physicalism. Now, physicalism is the very point in contention, so you can't simply assume it in the process of arguing for it. The claim that experience arises from an "interaction between an agent and the world" is even more glaringly question-begging, since you are assuming that existence of a world outside experience, which, again, is the point in contention.

Perceptions, just like thoughts and emotions, are experiences. What many here are arguing is precisely that perceptions are not generated by something outside consciousness, although they obviously entail something outside our personal consciousness (i.e. something outside the dissociated alters of universal consciousness that correspond to us as individual human beings). To argue against this view you can't simply assume the contrary view!

Neuroscience can only study consciousness through the experiences people report. However, to report an experience a person has not only to have the experience, but also to be aware of having the experience. After all, people cannot report what they experience without knowing that they experience it. Consequently, neuroscience inherently limits consciousness to what is, in fact, just a particular configuration of consciousness; namely self-reflective awareness. What you might call "unconscious neural processes" are, in my view, just non-self-reflective experiences fully in consciousness. Yet, nobody will report on them, for the reasons discussed above. So we end up thinking that there is something "unconscious."

There is nothing outside (trans-personal) consciousness, but there is plenty outside personal mentation and self-reflective awareness.

Cheers, Bernardo.

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[Bernardo Kastrup]

Do not confuse being in consciousness with being conscious. Deepak's statement is that all is in consciousness, as contents of consciousness. That is, the statement is that consciousness is the only ontological category, everything being describable as excitations of consciousness. That does not imply that everything is conscious, in the sense of having a private, dissociated inner life of its own. Cheers, Bernardo.

[Asingh2384]

Hi Deepak:

Well said and supported by the following physics based arguments about time and evolution. Any discussion about fossil record history and biological evolution over time cannot be complete without a complete understanding of time:

·         Time (and space) is not an absolute entity in the universe but a relative reality (or story as stated by Deepak) or dimension of matter. There is no one fixed clock depicting a unique time in the universe. As Einstein said - time is a stubborn Illusion. A very precise time measured by an atomic clock has absolutely no physical meaning from a universal point of view. Time dilates completely at speed of light.

·         Since time is only relative, it neither has an absolute beginning or zero-time nor an absolute ending. Hence, the origin or creation from nothingness is a universally false concept, howsoever a seemingly stubborn reality to the diminished or limited biological consciousness as opposed to the wholesome universal consciousness.

·         Time and evolution merely represent relative changes in state perceived by the Mind or biological consciousness. A clock can depict only a change via its tick and can never depict the origin or ending.

·         The observed behavior of the universe including its apparent expansion can be explained without any explicit consideration of time, origin (or Big Bang), or historical evolution. (as explained in my published papers and book – The Hidden Factor).

Hence, as Deepak said any event or phenomenon depicted in time and evolution is a story, a relative reality of the biological mind and not a universal reality.

Regards

Avtar Singh

-----Original Message-----
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>

It is a very crude understanding for now but maybe it may explain something..

[Zoran]

yes, but are you equating subjective ontology with objective ontology? Neither can be denied, right?

-----Original Message-----
From: Deepak Chopra <nonlo...@chopra.com>

[NYIKOS, PETER]

I am still confused by what you write.  Are you suggesting that material objects like rocks are illusions created by our minds, or produced in our minds by  some "subtle demon" of the sort described by Descartes, a demon who makes you think that what you see is real, although it is something that is a sensation put in your mind by a "deceiver"?

Bishop Berkeley had a dialogue in which that "demon" view was advanced, but my philosophy professor said that this was only done by Berkeley to illustrate that we cannot actually convey the idea of "rockhood" to others, but only of the sense impressions of rocks that we have in our conscious. Is this actually all you or Deepak Chopra are trying to say?

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From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [online_sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Bernardo Kastrup [bern...@bernardokastrup.com]
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2016 7:40 AM
To: BT APJ
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga; Kafatos, Menas; Skauffman; Donald Hoffman; neilt...@gmail.com; Subhash Kak

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

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[NYIKOS, PETER]

All right, Bernardo, perhaps I should have read this comment of yours before I wrote my reply to you a few minutes ago. But at least I was able to present two contrasting points of view, and lay them before our readers to see which made more sense to them.

So, you are opting for the "subtle demon" whose possible existence so taxed Descartes during the first two chapters of his Meditations. He then came up with the one thing he found certain, no matter how strongly the demon might be deceiving him: he, himself, existed. But he was still in a quandary about the existence of everything else, including other people.

He then thought he had proof of the existence of God, and since he identified God with the one described in the Bible, he naturally thought that God would not allow him to be deceived either about the existence of other people, or about the existence of inanimate objects like rocks.

You seem to think we are deceived about the existence of rocks as objects outside people's minds. Do you also think you are deceived about the existence of people other than yourself? people like myself, completely outside your consciousness yet as real as you are?  In other words, are you a solipsist?

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From: online_sa...@googlegroups.com [online_sa...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Bernardo Kastrup [bern...@bernardokastrup.com]

Sent: Friday, May 06, 2016 7:55 AM

To: BT APJ
Cc: Online Sadhu Sanga; Kafatos, Menas; Skauffman; Donald Hoffman; neilt...@gmail.com; Subhash Kak

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Invitation for Fourth International Conference "Science and Scientist – 2016"

[Stuart Kauffman]

Yes. from below: - I am not assuming a world outside experience, I am assuming a world *outside consciousness* and have many arguments to support this claim. For the moment, I just reinforced Dr. Kauffmann´s argument about fossils. It should be sufficient to show that Dr. Chopra´s view is flawed. IF Deepak wishes to say somehow we materialize the fossil record from our consciousness or any other retrocausal interoperation of QM, then does that apply to continental drift, gowandaland, and all for which there is now very good evidence? The east coast of S america fits the W coast of Africal, que no? Did we somehow materialize geomorpholgy and mount everest and the larger mountain next to me in Santa Fe that blew its top scattering ash to Arkansa some millions of years ago? We could not find out about unknown features of the past such as these and fossils were the past not real, and independent of us, late arrivals on the cosmic time scale. Come on Deepak, you can have love and compassion without being, well, nearly  fraudulent. Stu Kauffman

On May 6, 2016, at 8:05 AM, BT APJ <alfredo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bernardo and All, 

There was no question explicitly stated, therefore I am not going to argue that I am not begging the question. 

I will reply to each of your paragraphs:

B - "Experience without consciousness"? This seems very peculiar. I guess what you mean is "unconscious neural activity," which is fine but assumes physicalism. 

A - No, my argument was based on existential phenomenology (Husserl´s criticism of Descartes, Merleau-Ponty´s "pre-reflexive" experience). It can also be based on current approaches of embodied embedded cognition. We interact with the world with our bodies before becoming conscious of it. The living body (the flesh) is not a purely physical system, but a physical system with mental activity (it is objective and subjective at the same time - as in Ram's Dual-Aspect Monism). Greg Nixon has a paper on unconscious experiences that I quoted in my writings: Nixon,G. (2010) From panexperientialism to individual self consciousness: The continuum of experience. Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research. 1(3): 216-233.

B - Now, physicalism is the very point in contention, so you can't simply assume it in the process of arguing for it.

A -  I am not assuming physicalism

B - The claim that experience arises from an "interaction between an agent and the world" is even more glaringly question-begging, since you are assuming that existence of a world outside experience, which, again, is the point in contention.

A - I am not assuming a world outside experience, I am assuming a world *outside consciousness* and have many arguments to support this claim. For the moment, I just reinforced Dr. Kauffmann´s argument about fossils. It should be sufficient to show that Dr. Chopra´s view is flawed.

B - Perceptions, just like thoughts and emotions, are experiences. What many here are arguing is precisely that perceptions are not generated by something outside consciousness, although they obviously entail something outside our personal consciousness (i.e. something outside the dissociated alters of universal consciousness that correspond to us as individual human beings). To argue against this view you can't simply assume the contrary view!

A -  No, the discussion is not about perceptions being generated by something outside consciousness. The discussion is about human experience being inside consciousness or in the world. Dr. Chopra explicitly claims that experience is IN consciousness. I claim that it is an interactive process between an agent and the world, and that consciousness comes later, in evolutionary and ontogenetic scales. I am not arguing for an empiricist (Lockean, Humean) view of perception, therefore your arguments against it do not reach me.

B - Neuroscience can only study consciousness through the experiences people report. However, to report an experience a person has not only to have the experience, but also to be aware of having the experience. After all, people cannot report what they experience without knowing that they experience it. Consequently, neuroscience inherently limits consciousness to what is, in fact, just a particular configuration of consciousness; namely self-reflective awareness.

A - What you say is true only for some branches of cognitive neuroscience that inherited the Cartesian view of consciousness. There are other branches, as affective neuroscience, that relates being conscious with feeling. Feels can be non-reportable (we do not have words for many of them), but they are felt without being reported. Do you have an argument against this commonsensical evidence? Do you need to report the taste of wine in order to feel it? Do you have words to distinguish every nuance of the tastes?

 

B - What you might call "unconscious neural processes" are, in my view, just non-self-reflective experiences fully in consciousness. Yet, nobody will report on them, for the reasons discussed above. So we end up thinking that there is something "unconscious."

A - No, unconscious experiences are not restricted to these neural processes. For instance, since I woke up and wore my shoes I have had an unconscioius experience of interacting with the shoes, but was not conscious of it until I put it in my focus of attention (in phenomenological terminology, it was pre-reflexive until the moment I chose to make it a "theme"). The same applies, in evolutionary scale, to the fossils. Now we are conscious about them, but the data (geological age of the rocks, etc.) about them indicates to our consciousness that they were there when there was no human-like consciousness at all. Therefore, it is our consciousness itself that discovers that there are unconscious processes the have occurred independently of a human-like consciousness. Conscious processes are rarely locked in consciousness; the Cartesian case is the exception, not the rule, as Edmund Husserl convincingly argued.

Regards,

Alfredo