Holocaust? *What* 'holocaust'!?
vitw
According to today's main poll on the Stuff.co.nz news website, almost
60% of people believe that school students should not have to learn about
the Holocaust.
Geopelia
"vitw" <nos...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:4add08da$1...@news.orcon.net.nz...
>
> According to today's main poll on the Stuff.co.nz news website, almost
> 60% of people believe that school students should not have to learn about
> the Holocaust.
>
It depends on the age of the students.
Small children need only be told that so many people were killed, without
the gruesome details.
But teenagers should certainly learn all about it, or they may believe the
fools who insist it never happened.
Just look at the hypocritical way France celebrated their appalling
revolution.
I wonder what French children learn about that these days.
Roger Dewhurst
R
BrentC
They should certainly learn about what Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hitler,
Stalin, Japan, Genghis Khan etc did and what Israel, African despots
etc are doing now.
Whilst despicable - the plight of the Jews in WWII just mirrored past
horrific acts of ethnic cleansing.
teile
As far as we (i.e. New Zealanders) are concerned, whatever the Germans
and their friends did to Jews is not the main point, or even a very
important point, about the war. It was, after all, just a bunch of
people doing something vile to another bunch of people on the other
side of the world.
To us, it was important as a war and our children should be taught
primarily about how it it arose out of conditions in Europe after
previous conflicts and about the part that our forces played in it.
In that context, the Jews are a side issue of great importance, no
doubt, to some other nations, but not to us.
I remember some years ago that fellow in Vienna who hunted for Nazis
coming to New Zealand and claiming that we owed some sort of moral
obligation to help him. As far as most New Zealanders were concerned,
the moral obligations went the other way - from the Europeans to our
men who sacrificed themselves for them, and some acknowledgement of
that would have been in order before making demands on us. The
ungrateful old git didn't seem to appreciate that.
LW
misanthropic_curmudgeon
Which one?
The one where god wiped out all of humanity bar Noah et al.?
The one where Vlad the Impaler dealt to squillions
The one where Hitler et al cinderfied 6 million homos, retards,
commies and Jews?
The one where half the abos got wiped out and were hunted for sport?
The one where Stalin et al had sqillions shot?
The one where the US rounded up and killed squllions of Indians?
The one where Spain plundered South America?
The ones where half of Africa slaughters the other half?
The one where the chinese exterminated the Bo?
The one where ....
Dave Doe
>
> According to today's main poll on the Stuff.co.nz news website, almost
> 60% of people believe that school students should not have to learn about
> the Holocaust.
Well so be it. Personally, I think it is probably relevant, just as is
1066. Important historical events I think, should encompass more
physics - I wish I'd been taught more about (say) Albert Einstein - I
*did* get taught some Rutherford (important in NZ history I think)).
--
Duncan.
Geopelia
ignorant schoolboys.
Yes, they did offend people, but if they had been taught about Nazi Germany
and the Holocaust they would have known why it was wrong. Now, they do know.
But other kids, at the age when they are breaking free of adult authority,
may now think that aping "all that Nazi stuff" is a good way to do it,
because of the publicity.
In another fifty years, when all of us who lived through those times are
gone, it will just be another deplorable part of history.
But how can it be prevented from happening again if young people are kept in
ignorance?
John Cawston
> I wonder if it is wise to make such a fuss about what was only a prank by
> ignorant schoolboys.
> Yes, they did offend people, but if they had been taught about Nazi Germany
> and the Holocaust they would have known why it was wrong. Now, they do know.
The children of the Vets are only 60, so they can talk about it
for another 25 years. The grandchildren have some 30 years of
direct exposure to the Vets so that takes us out 50 odd years,
and plenty of great grandchildren have some direct exposure, so
it goes along a bit further.
Its really heading out towards 80 years before the direct links
are lost.
The real problem of ignorance has to lie with the teachers, and
they must have deliberately downplayed the Nazi scourge for
political and social reasons, ie, some sort of moral equivalence
in play that says all war is bad, therefore Churchill and co must
have been war mongers and no better than Hitler. In fact that
very sentiment pops up here often enough.
>
> But other kids, at the age when they are breaking free of adult authority,
> may now think that aping "all that Nazi stuff" is a good way to do it,
> because of the publicity.
>
> In another fifty years, when all of us who lived through those times are
> gone, it will just be another deplorable part of history.
> But how can it be prevented from happening again if young people are kept in
> ignorance?
Oh, I think that the teachers have done a pretty good job. The
attitude of most these days is that there are no reasons to go to
war.
JC
>
>
>
Mutlley
I always wonder why the jews seem to have a monopoly on being hard
done by last century. Starlin , Mao both killed millions and keith
locke's friend pol Pot killed millions as well but this all gets
conveniently forgotten about when a couple of schools kids do a prank.
What about gang patches with nazi stuff all over it. Des the media do
a "breaking news" headline??
george
> I always wonder why the jews seem to have a monopoly on being hard
> done by last century.
History shows that the Jewish people have been the victims of progroms
and racial genocide throughout Europe for many hundreds of years.
The Jewish, homosexuals, Gypsies and others were used by the nazis
used to promote their regime of hate..
A Google search will show you that such mindless race hatred still
remains to this day..
Brian Dooley
They learn about the 'Terror', what led up to it, and what
followed it.
What else do you suggest?
--
Brian Dooley
Wellington New Zealand
teile
> History shows that the Jewish people have been the victims of progroms
> and racial genocide throughout Europe for many hundreds of years.
Not racial genocide for there is no such thing as a Jewish race; they
have been subject to religious persecution.
> The Jewish, homosexuals, Gypsies and others were used by the nazis
> used to promote their regime of hate..
That provides some support for the point that was made - we hear
little about the Nazi persecution of homosexuals and Gypsies.
LW
Roger Dewhurst
Perhaps there were not many of those. If the adult population of
Germany at the time was 60 million there would have been about 25
million adult males. If 10% of these had been queer and all had been
gassed that would have only amounted to 2.5 million. That is only a
small proportion of the total.
R
george
> That provides some support for the point that was made - we hear
> little about the Nazi persecution of homosexuals and Gypsies.
>
What 'we'?
The races that were in line to be exterminated by the nazi madmen are
well known..
Apteryx
> On Oct 21, 8:23 am, george <gbl...@hnpl.net> wrote:
>> History shows that the Jewish people have been the victims of progroms
>> and racial genocide throughout Europe for many hundreds of years.
>
> Not racial genocide for there is no such thing as a Jewish race; they
> have been subject to religious persecution.
Not really. There were plenty of Christians and atheists (and probably
the odd Muslim, Hindu, and Budhist) who went to the gas chambers because
the Nazi race laws deemed them to be Jewish. Religon was only relevant
in borderline cases (eg, a person considered non-Jewish who married a
person considered Jewish before that became illegal was counted as
Jewish if they had converted to Judaism, and not if they hadn't). Just
converting to Judaism without marrying a Jew didn't get you a ticket to
Auswitz (unless the fast that you did it pissed someone off, because the
Nazi's weren't strong on law - even their own - anyway).
Apteryx
teile
> teile wrote:
> > Not racial genocide for there is no such thing as a Jewish race; they
> > have been subject to religious persecution.
>
> Not really. There were plenty of Christians and atheists (and probably
> the odd Muslim, Hindu, and Budhist) who went to the gas chambers because
> the Nazi race laws deemed them to be Jewish. Religon was only relevant
> in borderline cases (eg, a person considered non-Jewish who married a
> person considered Jewish before that became illegal was counted as
> Jewish if they had converted to Judaism, and not if they hadn't). Just
> converting to Judaism without marrying a Jew didn't get you a ticket to
> Auswitz (unless the fast that you did it pissed someone off, because the
> Nazi's weren't strong on law - even their own - anyway).
Which shows the madness of the whole business. My point is that,
ultimately, the identification of anyone as a Jew, and therefore of
anyone as qualifying under the Nazi rules, rests on a religious
affiliation - theirs or some (presumed) ancestor's. There is no
common genetic heritage.
LW
apairateef
"Geopelia" <phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:hbk7uj$bgj$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>I wonder if it is wise to make such a fuss about what was only a prank by
>ignorant schoolboys.
> Yes, they did offend people, but if they had been taught about Nazi
> Germany and the Holocaust they would have known why it was wrong. Now,
> they do know.
According to reports...they did know about the holocaust.
> But other kids, at the age when they are breaking free of adult authority,
> may now think that aping "all that Nazi stuff" is a good way to do it,
> because of the publicity.
>
> In another fifty years, when all of us who lived through those times are
> gone, it will just be another deplorable part of history.
> But how can it be prevented from happening again if young people are kept
> in ignorance?
It's happened since unfortunately...ethnic cleansing is still going on
around the world...amongst other nasty atrocities
S
Geopelia
"John Cawston" <rewa...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:hbl1gm$p0p$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Geopelia wrote:
>> I wonder if it is wise to make such a fuss about what was only a prank by
>> ignorant schoolboys.
>> Yes, they did offend people, but if they had been taught about Nazi
>> Germany and the Holocaust they would have known why it was wrong. Now,
>> they do know.
>
> The children of the Vets are only 60, so they can talk about it for
> another 25 years. The grandchildren have some 30 years of direct exposure
> to the Vets so that takes us out 50 odd years, and plenty of great
> grandchildren have some direct exposure, so it goes along a bit further.
> Its really heading out towards 80 years before the direct links are lost.
>
> The real problem of ignorance has to lie with the teachers, and they must
> have deliberately downplayed the Nazi scourge for political and social
> reasons, ie, some sort of moral equivalence in play that says all war is
> bad, therefore Churchill and co must have been war mongers and no better
> than Hitler. In fact that very sentiment pops up here often enough.
Stupid, isn't it. But today's teachers probably weren't even born in WWII.
They can only go by what those who taught them taught them.
>
>>
>> But other kids, at the age when they are breaking free of adult
>> authority, may now think that aping "all that Nazi stuff" is a good way
>> to do it, because of the publicity.
>>
>> In another fifty years, when all of us who lived through those times are
>> gone, it will just be another deplorable part of history.
>> But how can it be prevented from happening again if young people are kept
>> in ignorance?
>
> Oh, I think that the teachers have done a pretty good job. The attitude of
> most these days is that there are no reasons to go to war.
>
> JC
>
Let's hope they never have to find out the hard way that there may be very
good reasons to go to war.
Geopelia
"Mutlley" <mutle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ql2sd5d3tgok2po8d...@4ax.com...
People expect that sort of thing from gangs. But these were children from a
very good school, and better behaviour is expected from them. They should
have been brainwashed with pc stuff, shouldn't they?
Geopelia
"teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:5870cf97-c546-4ed1...@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
LW
We do hear a lot about them, but the Jews have a more organised approach to
finding those responsible and keeping the Holocaust in the public mind.
And of course far more Jews were killed.
Willy Nilly
They already are not taught about the Cambodian holcaust inflicted by
the Khmer Rouge, and that was only 35 years ago!
Brother Ramon
Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. I think we
should not gloss over any of history's holocausts in our classrooms.
Hitler and his henchmen killed over six million innocent Jewish
people, making it the second-worst holocaust in history! If our school-
children are ignorant of that, what's the point of education?
Brother Ramon
http://sites.google.com/site/peacetoallsite/
whoisthis
<c585f7a2-5f68-4c6a...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
Brother Ramon <brothe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Second worst..... the jews would have you believe it was the ONLY one...
Equally the jews can not see their actions now as being equally wrong,
perhaps not as many dead, but still equally repugnant. I wonder how long
it will be before we start teaching our kids about the wrongs the jews
are committing now
george
> I assume from your failure to distinguish between 'Jews' and 'Israelis'
> that you are some kind of anti-Semitic bigot.
Which he is unsuccessfully trying to hide
Geopelia
hopes, why.
But what is of more concern is what young people are being taught about Nazi
society and ideas.
For instance, do girls know the position of women in Nazi Germany?
That could be a shock to girls today, brought up with feminist ideas.
Do young people have a chance to watch Nazi propaganda films? Some of those
are very persuasive. Perhaps the older forms could be shown some, with a
teacher to explain what the Nazis were trying to achieve and why the films
show the wrong message.
Young people could be guided to suitable sites on the internet, too.
The more they know and understand, the less likely they would be to become
involved in any resurgence of Nazi ideas. Well anyway, one would hope not.
I wonder what German children today are taught about the Nazi era,
especially by their grandparents and great grandparents who lived through
those times.
teile
> But what is of more concern is what young people are being taught about Nazi
> society and ideas.
> For instance, do girls know the position of women in Nazi Germany?
> That could be a shock to girls today, brought up with feminist ideas.
Why should they be taught anything? It is just history now, of no
more relevance to the average person than other nasty societies of the
past. Once my father's generation and mine are gone, it will be as
remote to most people as the bloody reign of Queen Mary.
> Do young people have a chance to watch Nazi propaganda films? Some of those
> are very persuasive. Perhaps the older forms could be shown some, with a
> teacher to explain what the Nazis were trying to achieve and why the films
> show the wrong message.
Of interest to historians and social "scientists", but why subject the
rest to them? It's not for teachers to impose their views about right
and wrong on their pupils.
> Young people could be guided to suitable sites on the internet, too.
> The more they know and understand, the less likely they would be to become
> involved in any resurgence of Nazi ideas. Well anyway, one would hope not.
I'd like to see some evidence that such exposure has the desired
effect rather, say, than the opposite. Hope ain't enough.
LW
Geopelia
On Oct 22, 4:34 pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> But what is of more concern is what young people are being taught about
> Nazi
> society and ideas.
> For instance, do girls know the position of women in Nazi Germany?
> That could be a shock to girls today, brought up with feminist ideas.
Why should they be taught anything? It is just history now, of no
more relevance to the average person than other nasty societies of the
past. Once my father's generation and mine are gone, it will be as
remote to most people as the bloody reign of Queen Mary.
--------
What would happen in say fifty years time, if a political party started up
with Nazi ideas, but a different name?
Would those brought up in ignorance recognise what was happening in time?
(The same goes for Communism, still around in some countries.)
And while we don't find the religious persecutions of Tudor times relevant
today, in fifty years Moslems and Christians may be involved in religious
wars.
There is still a bit of a problem in Northern Ireland.
---------
> Do young people have a chance to watch Nazi propaganda films? Some of
> those
> are very persuasive. Perhaps the older forms could be shown some, with a
> teacher to explain what the Nazis were trying to achieve and why the films
> show the wrong message.
Of interest to historians and social "scientists", but why subject the
rest to them? It's not for teachers to impose their views about right
and wrong on their pupils.
-----------
Teaching should involve guidance as well as the use of words and numbers
etc. How can anyone teach history without some comment?
---------
> Young people could be guided to suitable sites on the internet, too.
> The more they know and understand, the less likely they would be to become
> involved in any resurgence of Nazi ideas. Well anyway, one would hope not.
---------------
I'd like to see some evidence that such exposure has the desired
effect rather, say, than the opposite. Hope ain't enough.
LW
--------------------------
If the subject is all hushed up, children will be curious, and incidents
like this museum one are likely to occur again.
I suppose one could compare it to sex education.
But I won't go into the rights and wrongs of that!
Brian Dooley
>
>"teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
>news:71d50bed-59ec-4991...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>On Oct 22, 4:34 pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> But what is of more concern is what young people are being taught about
>> Nazi
>> society and ideas.
>> For instance, do girls know the position of women in Nazi Germany?
>> That could be a shock to girls today, brought up with feminist ideas.
>
>Why should they be taught anything? It is just history now, of no
>more relevance to the average person than other nasty societies of the
>past. Once my father's generation and mine are gone, it will be as
>remote to most people as the bloody reign of Queen Mary.
But the reign of William and Mary is still alive and kicking.
>--------
>
>What would happen in say fifty years time, if a political party started up
>with Nazi ideas, but a different name?
It would be a surprise it were called the Nationalsozialistische
Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.
>Would those brought up in ignorance recognise what was happening in time?
>(The same goes for Communism, still around in some countries.)
>
eg Cuba
>And while we don't find the religious persecutions of Tudor times relevant
>today, in fifty years Moslems and Christians may be involved in religious
>wars.
In fifty years time it will be as likely to be Sunni vs Shia.
>There is still a bit of a problem in Northern Ireland.
>---------
>
>> Do young people have a chance to watch Nazi propaganda films? Some of
>> those
>> are very persuasive. Perhaps the older forms could be shown some, with a
>> teacher to explain what the Nazis were trying to achieve and why the films
>> show the wrong message.
>
>Of interest to historians and social "scientists", but why subject the
>rest to them? It's not for teachers to impose their views about right
>and wrong on their pupils.
>
They always have done, and usually they have been chosen for
that, just as they did with you.
>-----------
>
>Teaching should involve guidance as well as the use of words and numbers
>etc. How can anyone teach history without some comment?
>
>---------
>
>> Young people could be guided to suitable sites on the internet, too.
>> The more they know and understand, the less likely they would be to become
>> involved in any resurgence of Nazi ideas. Well anyway, one would hope not.
>
>
>---------------
>
>I'd like to see some evidence that such exposure has the desired
>effect rather, say, than the opposite. Hope ain't enough.
>
>LW
>--------------------------
>If the subject is all hushed up, children will be curious, and incidents
>like this museum one are likely to occur again.
>
>I suppose one could compare it to sex education.
>But I won't go into the rights and wrongs of that!
>
Why not - we're all grown up here.
Geopelia
"Brian Dooley" <bri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:6475e51kso66qteov...@4ax.com...
>
> On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:52:39 +1300, "Geopelia"
> <phil...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>
>>"teile" <te...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
>>news:71d50bed-59ec-4991...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>>On Oct 22, 4:34 pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>>> But what is of more concern is what young people are being taught about
>>> Nazi
>>> society and ideas.
>>> For instance, do girls know the position of women in Nazi Germany?
>>> That could be a shock to girls today, brought up with feminist ideas.
>>
>>Why should they be taught anything? It is just history now, of no
>>more relevance to the average person than other nasty societies of the
>>past. Once my father's generation and mine are gone, it will be as
>>remote to most people as the bloody reign of Queen Mary.
>
> But the reign of William and Mary is still alive and kicking.
"King Billy" is still remembered.
It doesn't belong in this thread. I just mentioned it as a comparison.
Geopelia
because after WWII English people had to start thinking of Germans as people
like themselves, (which genetically they are), not the "Beastly Hun" of
wartime propaganda.
This would have been important as Europe was becoming more united.
But now, so long afterwards, shouldn't it be taught again?