Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
Tanguero
the best, and I'll modify them accordingly.
Thanks again!
Seth Lewin
as a kid and bicycled everywhere there was to go, more or less (30+ years
ago): Don't go. The area around East NY, which is more or less where you're
thinking of walking, is frightful. I was cutting through there by car during
broad daylight during the early 90's and felt threatened enough by the
locals congregating on both sides at various street corners that I decided
to turn back - made a U turn on a one-way street - and head out via another
route - the first time in my life I've ever done that.
SML
In article <8g90no$gqb$1...@panix5.panix.com> , ta...@panix.com (Tanguero)
wrote:
> I grew up in Queens and, despite occasional forays into Park
> Slope, Coney Island, and downtown Brooklyn, Brooklyn has always been
> something of a mystery to me. As a dedicated subway fan, I've
> always felt a bit dissatisfied by never having visited the outer
> reaches of some lines, like the terminus of the L train or the
> New Lots line.
>
> Anyway, I'm thinking of combining a jaunt to the end of the L line with
> a long walk back to Queens through Ozone Park. I know that
> some areas in the vicinity, such as East New York, are a bit high-crime.
> Can anyone tell me whether a walk north and east, say, along Linden
> Blvd or Flatlands Ave, pases through dicey
> neighborhoods? (Since my Hagstrom's shows Flatlands dead-ending
> before the Queens border, I guess I'd go North at
> Fountain to Linden, and then follow that into Ozone Park.
> I note that Linden passes some extensive housing projects (Boulevard
> Housing and Linden Housing on the map).
> I'll be doing the walk on a weekend afternoon with my girlfriend.
>
> And while we're on the subject: How about the eastern terminuses of
> the New Lots line and the A train (northern spur, not Rockaway?).
> The former, being in the heart of East New York, is probably
> a bite dangerous; how about the latter?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
Peter Rosa
As the old expression goes, better safe than sorry. Anyway, if you're
looking for alternatives, I'd suggest a walk between the 7's terminal in
Flushing and the F's terminal at 179th. It'll take you a couple of
hours, but it passes through a variety of neighborhoods that normally
are off the beaten path. And it's infinitely safer than wandering
around East New York.
--
Peter Rosa
PR...@prodigy.net
pros...@yahoo.com
R32...@aol.com
Tanguero
>Tanguero wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, all, for the advice. It is clear that my original plans were not
>> the best, and I'll modify them accordingly.
>>
>> Thanks again!
>As the old expression goes, better safe than sorry. Anyway, if you're
>looking for alternatives, I'd suggest a walk between the 7's terminal in
>Flushing and the F's terminal at 179th. It'll take you a couple of
>hours, but it passes through a variety of neighborhoods that normally
>are off the beaten path. And it's infinitely safer than wandering
>around East New York.
Thanks for the suggestion. But I know that area well, having biked around
there a lot as a teenager. Remember- I'm a Queens boy trying to
get to know Brooklyn (but who was it who said "only the dead know Brooklyn?")
Right now I'm considering a couple of alternatives: Walking to the
D line from the L terminus, mostly along King's Highway, or heading
to the fabled Canarsie Pier and maybe catching a bus from there (to
where, I don't know yet. I need to get a Brooklyn bus map).
BTW - while the thread's still open: Assuming I went, say, on
a weekend afternoon ot even early evening rush-hour, how dangerous would
it be to ride to the end of the New Lots line without getting out, just
getting on another train and heading back?
Frank Schifano
>Let me put it this way - and I was born in Brooklyn and rode all the lines
>as a kid and bicycled everywhere there was to go, more or less (30+ years
>ago): Don't go. The area around East NY, which is more or less where you're
>thinking of walking, is frightful. I was cutting through there by car during
>broad daylight during the early 90's and felt threatened enough by the
>locals congregating on both sides at various street corners that I decided
>to turn back - made a U turn on a one-way street - and head out via another
>route - the first time in my life I've ever done that.
>
I've got to agree with you there. That's my old neighborhood to, and
I did just about the same things you did there as a kid I'll bet.
Tookk the subway everywhere, and rode my bike even more. My advice to
the originator of this thread - do yourself a favor and DO NOT GO
THERE! The neighborhood was bad 30+ years ago, but I didn't know any
better. It's much worse now. Better you should walk towards Kings
Highway. More interesting things to see. A walk along the Belt
Parkway towards Howard Beach would also be ok, but don't go to Euclid
Ave. From New Lots and Livonia. You'll be asking for trouble.
Peter T. Daniels
> BTW - while the thread's still open: Assuming I went, say, on
> a weekend afternoon ot even early evening rush-hour, how dangerous would
> it be to ride to the end of the New Lots line without getting out, just
> getting on another train and heading back?
That I did a couple years ago. No problem. But as long as you're in the
area, make your journey down the Flatbush line on the same trip (as,
fortunately, I did) -- it's definitely not worth a separate excursion.
Two tracks, straight, shabby stations all the way. And the Franklin Ave.
junction station is a bit complicated.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Phil Kane
>I've got to agree with you there. That's my old neighborhood to, and
>I did just about the same things you did there as a kid I'll bet.
>Tookk the subway everywhere, and rode my bike even more.
Me too also.
My heart cries out for what Livonia Avenue between Pennsylvania
Ave and the Canarsie Line has become. That was my playground.
I left in 1952 just before my senior year in HS.
==> Watch the Doors <==
Phil Kane
Ralph Herman
"Phil Kane" <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote in message
news:cuvyxnarirevbznvyp...@ca.news.verio.net...
Two words....rent control.
Ralph
JohnC
Ralph Herman <rlah...@flashcom.net> wrote in message
news:sip4tu...@corp.supernews.com...
Two more words.....irresponsible landlords
Peter Rosa
Ave and the Canarsie Line has become. That was my playground. I
left in 1952 just before my senior year in HS.]
[Two words....rent control.]
Dunno. I have little use for rent control, but somehow I doubt
it's anywhere close to a complete explanation for the decline of
East New York and surrounding areas. Controlled rents in the
area probably aren't much below market levels.
As I've said before, neighborhood decline is a complex process
that very seldom can be reduced to a few discrete factors. Rent
control might have had some contribution to the decline of ENY,
but it surely was a modest one.
--
Peter Rosa
pros...@yahoo.com
PR...@prodigy.net
R32...@aol.com
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Jim Guthrie
> [[My heart cries out for what Livonia Avenue between Pennsylvania
> Ave and the Canarsie Line has become. That was my playground. I
> left in 1952 just before my senior year in HS.]
>
> [Two words....rent control.]
>
Yeah -- that's why Manhattan real estate is such the pits as well. Same rent
control as East New York and the rest of the city. Peter Rosa notes:
> Dunno. I have little use for rent control, but somehow I doubt
> it's anywhere close to a complete explanation for the decline of
> East New York and surrounding areas. Controlled rents in the
> area probably aren't much below market levels.
It doesn't help that the end of the Interboro (oops Robinson) Parkway and
Sunrise Highway (Conduit Blvd) allows suburbanites to make a quick zip
around to pick up drugs of choice in the neighborhood. Washington Heights
and some neighborhoods in the Bronx have suffered similar fates over the
years, though not to the extent that Long Islanders have helped East New
York to become impossible.
Cheers,
Jim
Robert Coe
: Let me put it this way - and I was born in Brooklyn and rode all the lines
: as a kid and bicycled everywhere there was to go, more or less (30+ years
: ago): Don't go. The area around East NY, which is more or less where you're
: thinking of walking, is frightful. I was cutting through there by car during
: broad daylight during the early 90's and felt threatened enough by the
: locals congregating on both sides at various street corners that I decided
: to turn back - made a U turn on a one-way street - and head out via another
: route - the first time in my life I've ever done that.
I don't doubt what you say, since I obviously wasn't there. But out of
curiosity, what exactly was the locals' threatening behavior that provoked you
to take such a peculiar action?
BTW, isn't NYC supposed to be a lot safer now than it was in the early 90s?
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, MA 01776-2120 USA ** 978-443-3265
Peter Rosa
Jim Guthrie wrote:
>
> It doesn't help that the end of the Interboro (oops Robinson) Parkway and
> Sunrise Highway (Conduit Blvd) allows suburbanites to make a quick zip
> around to pick up drugs of choice in the neighborhood. Washington Heights
> and some neighborhoods in the Bronx have suffered similar fates over the
> years, though not to the extent that Long Islanders have helped East New
> York to become impossible.
>
I don't know, _maybe_ that's really the case, but it sounds too
politically correct to be true. It shifts the blame away from the East
New Yorkers themselves and instead pins it on the evil suburbanites (Ice
People, of course). I find it hard to accept if for no other reason
than few suburbanites would have the courage to venture into East New
York for drugs. No doubt there are drugs being used on Long Island even
as we speak, but most probably are bought locally.
Peter Schleifer
>
> BTW, isn't NYC supposed to be a lot safer now than it was in the early 90s?
Even East NY is a lot safer than it used to be. It still has a higher
crime rate than most areas, though, and is probably not one of the
safest places for strolling "tourists". I rode a bicycle through East
NY (mostly on Linden and Pitkin) several times in the bad old days
without anything remotely threatening happening to me, but I still
advise caution.
My grandfather taught at Thomas Jefferson and thought things had gotten
pretty bad by the time he retired in the late 50's. Are any of Aaron
Jaffe's former students out there?
--
Peter Schleifer
"Ignorance is easy and you get it for free"
Morris J. Shlyaf
"JohnC" <j...@jc.com> wrote in message news:8gj4jc$5fm$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Ralph Herman <rlah...@flashcom.net> wrote in message
> news:sip4tu...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > "Phil Kane" <nos...@nospam.spam> wrote in message
> > news:cuvyxnarirevbznvyp...@ca.news.verio.net...
> > > On Wed, 24 May 2000 00:30:15 GMT, Frank Schifano wrote:
> > >
> > > >I've got to agree with you there. That's my old neighborhood to, and
> > > >I did just about the same things you did there as a kid I'll bet.
> > > >Tookk the subway everywhere, and rode my bike even more.
> > >
> > > Me too also.
> > >
> > > Ave and the Canarsie Line has become. That was my playground.
> > > I left in 1952 just before my senior year in HS.
> > >
> >
> > Two words....rent control.
> >
> >
>
> Two more words.....irresponsible landlords
Caused mostly by rent control.
Vicki Richman
<392DD5...@prodigy.net>, Peter Rosa <PR...@prodigy.net>
wrote:
> It shifts the blame away from the East New Yorkers
> themselves and instead pins it on the evil suburbanites
> (Ice People, of course). I find it hard to accept if for
> no other reason than few suburbanites would have the
> courage to venture into East New York for drugs.
That is true. But few suburbanites are all that are needed
to buy drugs for the many who won't come themselves. The few
"courageous" suburbanites -- perhaps City cops or otherwise
well-armed -- make a good profit for their risk.
This has been going on quite a while. One or two white
people develop ghetto contacts and serve hundreds at their
college or white suburb.
The ghettos cannot support their drug trade without outside
cash flowing in steadily.
Finally, who has more "courage"? A Howard Beacher in East
New York, or an East New Yorker in Howard Beach? I'd feel
much safer white in the black inner city than black in a
white suburb.
--
Vicki Richman vic...@panix.com National Writers Union
Harlem New York PGP 2.6 UAW Local 1981, AFL/CIO
"The fare shall not be fowl." -Credo of the Vegetarian Umpires Association
Lisa nor Jeff
> > around to pick up drugs of choice in the neighborhood. Washington Heights
> > and some neighborhoods in the Bronx have suffered similar fates over the
>
> New Yorkers themselves and instead pins it on the evil suburbanites (Ice
> People, of course). I find it hard to accept if for no other reason
> than few suburbanites would have the courage to venture into East New
> York for drugs.
Suburbanites coming into the inner city to buy drugs is a major support
for the drug trade.
Every so often you read of some otherwise clean cut suburbanite turning
up dead in a lousy area, with no explanation of how he or she got there.
In Philadelphia, they did a review of this and found it to be so. They
tried an enforcement action that was successful--they monitored suburbanites
buying drugs and then nailed them a little later on as they headed home on
I-95. However, it seems they only did this once.
In Trenton NJ periodically they raid the prostitutes and publish the
names of the male patrons. Most are of wealthy suburban addresses.
(There's sometimes a suicide as a result of someone's name being published).
Regretfully, drug use is a lot higher than suburbanites would like to
acknowledge. Many of them believe it to be solely "THEIR" (the city folk)
problem, certainly not among their own fine upstanding citizens.
This is not to say that the cities have some very serious problems on
their own--they sure do. But I'm sick of self-righteous suburbanites
blaming _everything_ on city people and completely ignoring troubles in
their own back yard.
Suburban cops routinely describe the deep and insistent denial of
suburban parents when their kids get arrested for something, even
when the cops have a video with clear proof of the crime.
Peter Rosa
Vicki Richman wrote:
>
> On Thu, 25 May 2000 21:38:22 -0400, in
> <392DD5...@prodigy.net>, Peter Rosa <PR...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
> > themselves and instead pins it on the evil suburbanites
> > (Ice People, of course). I find it hard to accept if for
> > no other reason than few suburbanites would have the
> > courage to venture into East New York for drugs.
>
> to buy drugs for the many who won't come themselves. The few
> "courageous" suburbanites -- perhaps City cops or otherwise
> well-armed -- make a good profit for their risk.
>
> This has been going on quite a while. One or two white
> people develop ghetto contacts and serve hundreds at their
> college or white suburb.
>
> The ghettos cannot support their drug trade without outside
> cash flowing in steadily.
What you say may be correct, but it's quite a stretch to attribute East
New York's decline to suburban drug-buyers. I don't know specifically
what killed off the neighborhood. Drugs surely were a contributing
factor (though I'll bet most buyers were locals), as rent control may
have been, but surely there were other things as well.
Ralph Herman
"Morris J. Shlyaf" <notori...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:yEoX4.13430$Sx.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
his properties and eventually will abandon his properties. Examples are
abundant in East NY/Brownsville. The drug trade had nothing to do with
it... drugs moved in long after the neighborhood declined in the 1960's.
Ralph
Ralph Herman
"Peter Rosa" <PR...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:392F28...@prodigy.net...
Ralph
JOHN PAZMINO
T > Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
T > Date: 23 May 2000 21:19:54 -0400
T > Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
T > >>
T > >> Thanks, all, for the advice. It is clear that my original plans were not
T > >> the best, and I'll modify them accordingly.
T >
T > >As the old expression goes, better safe than sorry. Anyway, if you're
T > >looking for alternatives, I'd suggest a walk between the 7's terminal in
T > >Flushing and the F's terminal at 179th. It'll take you a couple of
T > >hours, but it passes through a variety of neighborhoods that normally
T > >are off the beaten path. And it's infinitely safer than wandering
T > >around East New York.
T >
T > Thanks for the suggestion. But I know that area well, having biked around
T > there a lot as a teenager. Remember- I'm a Queens boy trying to
T > get to know Brooklyn (but who was it who said "only the dead know Brooklyn?")
T >
T > Right now I'm considering a couple of alternatives: Walking to the
T > D line from the L terminus, mostly along King's Highway, or heading
T > to the fabled Canarsie Pier and maybe catching a bus from there (to
T > where, I don't know yet. I need to get a Brooklyn bus map).
T >
T > BTW - while the thread's still open: Assuming I went, say, on
T > a weekend afternoon ot even early evening rush-hour, how dangerous would
T > it be to ride to the end of the New Lots line without getting out, just
T > getting on another train and heading back?
This station is on the el so you can look around at the hood from
the platform. It's an island platform with no windscreens to block
the view.
There's an other route that is sometimes considered, happily not
by you. The IRT and BMT cross in, uh, Brownsville. The Livonia Av BMT
station and Junius Av IRT station are a block apart with no transfer
between them. It may be tempting to just get off the one line, walk
across to the other, and contiue the ride on the other. DO NOT EVEN
THINK OF DOING THIS!
---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P005004
JOHN PAZMINO
PT> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
PT> Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:52:37 GMT
PT> Organization: AT&T Worldnet
PT>
PT> > BTW - while the thread's still open: Assuming I went, say, on
PT> > a weekend afternoon ot even early evening rush-hour, how dangerous would
PT> > it be to ride to the end of the New Lots line without getting out, just
PT> > getting on another train and heading back?
PT>
PT> That I did a couple years ago. No problem. But as long as you're in the
PT> area, make your journey down the Flatbush line on the same trip (as,
PT> fortunately, I did) -- it's definitely not worth a separate excursion.
PT> Two tracks, straight, shabby stations all the way. And the Franklin Ave.
PT> junction station is a bit complicated.
It's worth the ride as part of a larger excursion to get to the
last stop, Flatbush Av. This staion was completely rebuilt in the mid
1990s and is a wonderously beautiful work. The IRT sould was preserved
while new tasteful decorations are added. Along the way out, look from
the train at Church Av station, similarly rebuilt in the 1990s.
The IRT Franklin Av station now communicates with the BMT Franklin
shuttle, definitely worth a look. The Shuttle was totally rebuilt and
reopened in 1999; it's the very last rapid transit line of the 1900s.
The correspinding station on the shuttle is Botanic Gardens, a lovely
rurified structure.
---
ţ RoseReader 2.52á P005004
BGrobman2
for the drug trade. >>
I grew up in east New York and hung out up in Mamaroneck. It was my experience
that there was far more drug use ( and hard drugs like heroin) in the suburbs.
Where did they buy their drugs? In the South Bronx of course. Those little rich
kids loved the adventure. The reason why it seems as though there is more drug
use in the inner city is that when poor blacks get caught with a milligram of
crack or weed they wind up in attica for 30 years but when young rich
suburbanites get caught on their home turf daddy pulls some strings and anyway
no judge is gonna send some wonderful young rich kid on his way to Harvord to
jail. They get sent to rehab. Same as when they get caught drunk driving even
killing someone in an accident. Just a 28 day rehab and "see-ya". I've seen it
time and time again.
Also as for that idiot who posted that it's rent control that caused it believe
me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well above
market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth and
will try and get away with anything if they can.
The Bernard Grobman Homepage
http://hometown.aol.com/BGrobman2/index.html
"It ain't got that swing if it's played by a thing."
Alexander Nobler Cohen
> > What you say may be correct, but it's quite a stretch to attribute East
> > New York's decline to suburban drug-buyers. I don't know specifically
> > what killed off the neighborhood. Drugs surely were a contributing
> > factor (though I'll bet most buyers were locals), as rent control may
> > have been, but surely there were other things as well.
> >
> You could probably throw in the decline of the public schools into the mix.
If you really want to know all the sordid details of the story --
including issues of housing stock, racial tension, blockbusting, public
housing, deindustrialization, unemployment, etc., I highly recommend
reading "The Origins of the Urban Crisis" by Sugrue. It's about Detroit,
but the same story played itself out in Brooklyn, and in big cities all
over the country.
Alex
Daniel Salomon
: Also as for that idiot who posted that it's rent control that caused it believe
: me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well above
: market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth and
: will try and get away with anything if they can.
If existing tenants are paying artificially reduced rates, and landlords
can charge whatever they want for new tenants, then of course new tenants
will pay above "market" rate.
I remain skeptical, however, that just ending rent control will fix
things. Massachusetts ended rent control statewide a few years ago, and
yet there is not that much new housing being built in the Boston area, and
rents keep going up and up. Maybe this is a result of NIMBYs who won't
allow any new construction.
-Dan
Ralph Herman
"BGrobman2" <bgro...@aol.comno.spam> wrote in message
news:20000527023625...@ng-bd1.aol.com...
> << Suburbanites coming into the inner city to buy drugs is a major support
> for the drug trade. >>
>
>
> I grew up in east New York and hung out up in Mamaroneck. It was my
experience
> that there was far more drug use ( and hard drugs like heroin) in the
suburbs.
> Where did they buy their drugs? In the South Bronx of course. Those little
rich
> kids loved the adventure. The reason why it seems as though there is more
drug
> use in the inner city is that when poor blacks get caught with a milligram
of
> crack or weed they wind up in attica for 30 years but when young rich
> suburbanites get caught on their home turf daddy pulls some strings and
anyway
> no judge is gonna send some wonderful young rich kid on his way to Harvord
to
> jail. They get sent to rehab. Same as when they get caught drunk driving
even
> killing someone in an accident. Just a 28 day rehab and "see-ya". I've
seen it
> time and time again.
>
believe
> me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well
above
> market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth
and
> will try and get away with anything if they can.
Idiot, I would suggest you check the 1960's NYC rent regulations, rents (and
profits) were tightly regulated by the city, If you were stupid enough to
pay more than the market rate for a deteriorated apartment, that's your
problem.
I never said landlords were not right or wrong. What I said was if there
was no profit in keeping a property, landlords will either sell it or
abandon it. En masse, landlords abandoned their properties to in East NY
because they could not make a profit. Economics 101.
Bgrobman, I suggest you get a group of your friends get together an buy an
apartment building in East NY. Play landlord for awhile. See how much fun
it is.
Ralph
Ralph Herman
"Daniel Salomon" <dsal...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:8gp2b4$n8c$2...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
> BGrobman2 <bgro...@aol.comno.spam> wrote:
> : Also as for that idiot who posted that it's rent control that caused it
believe
> : me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well
above
> : market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth
and
> : will try and get away with anything if they can.
>
> can charge whatever they want for new tenants, then of course new tenants
> will pay above "market" rate.
>
> I remain skeptical, however, that just ending rent control will fix
> things. Massachusetts ended rent control statewide a few years ago, and
> yet there is not that much new housing being built in the Boston area, and
> rents keep going up and up. Maybe this is a result of NIMBYs who won't
> allow any new construction.
>
> -Dan
I agree, removing rent control will not eliminate the problem in the short
term. Good, affordable housing stock is in short supply. So many NYC
buildings have been neglected for decades, it may take decades until market
forces rebuild, repair (or replace) the dilapidated stock.
Ralph
Lisa nor Jeff
> use in the inner city is that when poor blacks get caught with a milligram of
> crack or weed they wind up in attica for 30 years but when young rich
> suburbanites get caught on their home turf daddy pulls some strings and anyway
> no judge is gonna send some wonderful young rich kid on his way to Harvord to
> jail.
In a wealthy suburb of Phila, a group of very rich kids went into a big house
under reconstruction, held a party, and completely destroyed the house.
I wasn't very surprised (but upset) that they got off with pretty mild
sentences.
In contrast, if a city kid comes into the suburbs and gets caught in a crime,
they nail his butt to the wall.
Part of it is of course the quality of lawyer. A private lawyer or even
better, a team of lawyers, will usually do better than a public defender
for his client. If nothing else, having a bankbook will allow a lawyer
to do lots of research to find precedents or angles to minimize the sentence
or even beat the rap altogether.
[Of course I must note that when a friend of mine had jury duty, he
found the defense lawyer (a pub def) to be excellent. My friend was
all set to acquit the defendant until the defendant insisted, against
counsel's advise, to take the stand on his own behalf.]
Some people say it's race. I don't think it is skin color as much as
it is ECONOMICS. I've seen white city folk get nailed just as badly
as black ones.
Peter Rosa
Jim Guthrie wrote:
>
> Daniel wrote:
> >
> > I remain skeptical, however, that just ending rent control will fix
> > things. Massachusetts ended rent control statewide a few years ago, and
> > yet there is not that much new housing being built in the Boston area, and
> > rents keep going up and up. Maybe this is a result of NIMBYs who won't
> > allow any new construction.
> >
> Manhattan. A new 6-story rental building has just been completed next to our
> co-op in Brooklyn, and remains mostly un-aoccupied becasue rents are set too
> high for the market.
I know that when it comes to commercial construction, the unions charge
the same rates for work in the outer boroughs as they do for work in
Manhattan. This quite obviously results in making outer-borough
commercial construction non-cost-effective. Developers therefore stick
with Jersey City. Anyway, does this one-price-fits-all policy also
apply to residential construction?
> When I lived in L.A., the residents of Santa Monica voted in a new city
> council that imposed strong new rent control laws.
You mean the People's Republic of Santa Monica :-)
> Seriously, if rent control had any major influence on the state of core city
> neighborhoods, one would expect Chicago and Saint Louis, Philadelphia,
> Washington, and other non-rent control cities to be models of strong
> vigorous affordable housing stock. Alas, such is not the case.
>
Yet don't those cities have much more reasonable vacancy rates?
Phil Kane
> There's an other route that is sometimes considered, happily not
>by you. The IRT and BMT cross in, uh, Brownsville. The Livonia Av BMT
>station and Junius Av
Junius STREET, John........
>IRT station are a block apart with no transfer
>between them. It may be tempting to just get off the one line, walk
>across to the other, and contiue the ride on the other. DO NOT EVEN
>THINK OF DOING THIS!
I second that motion. I/we used that footbridge daily from
1948-1950 to get to and from JHS 109 - the Ida and Isadore
Straus JHS - which was one block west of Junius Street and one
block north of Livonia Avenue. Except when there were lots of
us on the 'bridge, it wasn't overly safe THEN. It hasn't
changed much, I understand.
JOHN PAZMINO
B > Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
B > Date: 27 May 2000 06:36:25 GMT
B > Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
B >
B > Also as for that idiot who posted that it's rent control that caused it believe
B > me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well above
B > market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth and
B > will try and get away with anything if they can.
It doesn;t have to be highrent dwellings. On Staten Island there
are very few rent controlled apartments. Too few apartments qualify to
come under RC. Everything is market rent. The landlord may charge what
ever he wants. What's more, most apartments are in small buildings
under the size limit to do under stabilization or other regulated rent
scheme.
This would mean SI is a land of landlord-tenant harmony, right?
The landlord gets his rent and the tenant lives where ever he wants.
Not so. The hatred and animosity and purient bloodlust between
landlords and tenants is just as strong on SI as any where else in the
City.
Jim Guthrie
>
> I remain skeptical, however, that just ending rent control will fix
> things. Massachusetts ended rent control statewide a few years ago, and
> yet there is not that much new housing being built in the Boston area, and
> rents keep going up and up. Maybe this is a result of NIMBYs who won't
> allow any new construction.
>
Manhattan. A new 6-story rental building has just been completed next to our
co-op in Brooklyn, and remains mostly un-aoccupied becasue rents are set too
high for the market.
When I lived in L.A., the residents of Santa Monica voted in a new city
council that imposed strong new rent control laws. The landlords responded
by trying to rent through agencies that would screen political affiliations
of potential new tenants -- sticking with Republicans and Libertarians as
best they could.
The strategy worked -- Reagan and Bush and Gov. Wilson and other Republicans
received higher margins in Santa Monica than Republicans had in the past. Of
course, the new "Republican" tenants have also voted more strongly than ever
for the pro-rent control folk on city council. After all, they know a good
deal when they've stumbled into one <g>.
Seriously, if rent control had any major influence on the state of core city
neighborhoods, one would expect Chicago and Saint Louis, Philadelphia,
Washington, and other non-rent control cities to be models of strong
vigorous affordable housing stock. Alas, such is not the case.
Cheers,
Jim
Robert Coe
wrote:
: The IRT Franklin Av station now communicates with the BMT Franklin
: reopened in 1999; it's the very last rapid transit line of the 1900s.
: The correspinding station on the shuttle is Botanic Gardens, a lovely
: rurified structure.
"rurified"??! Did you just invent that word? It didn't make it to my
dictionary! Is it perhaps similar to "ruralized" or "rusticated"?
SAMMY FINKELMAN
What stops it is the high cost of buiolding and zoning regulations which
prevent the creattion of more housing units out of existing stock. Rent
control makes the other constraintys tolerable People cvan live with the
high cost of building new housing because of rent control. Market prices
always rise to the replacement level.
Daniel Salomon
stabilization? How do some apartments qualify for one but not the other,
and are there maximum income requirements for tenants?
Thanks,
Dan
JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote:
: It doesn;t have to be highrent dwellings. On Staten Island there
JOHN PAZMINO
DS> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
DS> Date: 27 May 2000 17:57:56 GMT
DS> Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
DS> : Also as for that idiot who posted that it's rent control that caused it belie
DS> ve
DS> : me i've lived in some very expensive deteriorated housing in NYC well above
DS> : market rate. Landlords are just about universally the scum of the earth and
DS> : will try and get away with anything if they can.
DS>
DS> If existing tenants are paying artificially reduced rates, and landlords
DS> can charge whatever they want for new tenants, then of course new tenants
DS> will pay above "market" rate.
DS>
DS> I remain skeptical, however, that just ending rent control will fix
DS> things. Massachusetts ended rent control statewide a few years ago, and
DS> yet there is not that much new housing being built in the Boston area, and
DS> rents keep going up and up. Maybe this is a result of NIMBYs who won't
DS> allow any new construction.
With the 'competition' of rent control gone, more people are in
the pool of potential new tenants. With more customers and product
(apartments) the rents can go up. If you believe this I have a bridge
to sell you. Only one side of it is running, but, than again, I be a
landlord.
JOHN PAZMINO
RH> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
RH> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:21:22 -0700
RH> Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
RH>
RH> Idiot, I would suggest you check the 1960's NYC rent regulations, rents (and
RH> profits) were tightly regulated by the city, If you were stupid enough to
RH> pay more than the market rate for a deteriorated apartment, that's your
RH> problem.
Or he's a conscientious liberal, realizing that he's doing his
part to help the landlord put bread on his table. Paying above market
rent for an apartment is a joyous way for liberals to demonstrate
their belief and faith in their socialistic system. They know the
extra couple hundred dollars a month will be spent subsidizing the
rents of their poor suffering less fortunate soulsmates in the
building. In fact under some circumstance, which th landlord can fix
up for you, the overage may be a tax-deduction. DO consider carefully
this simple and quick way to demonstrae conclusinvely to your fellow
liberals that you, in deed as well as in words, truly look after
the lower echelons of humanity.
RH> I never said landlords were not right or wrong. What I said was if there
RH> was no profit in keeping a property, landlords will either sell it or
RH> abandon it. En masse, landlords abandoned their properties to in East NY
RH> because they could not make a profit. Economics 101.
RH> Bgrobman, I suggest you get a group of your friends get together an buy an
RH> apartment building in East NY. Play landlord for awhile. See how much fun
RH> it is.
Go to Lower East Side or Central park North and see the beautifully
rebuilt apartment houses by just such people who bought them. The
place is wonderful and the rents are properly adjusted. In fact, it is
more and more common to make rent payment painless and carefree with
EFT. You never have to write a check any more!
---
ž RoseReader 2.52į P005004
JOHN PAZMINO
PR> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east of Canarsie
PR> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:04:56 -0400
PR> Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com
PR>
PR> I know that when it comes to commercial construction, the unions charge
PR> the same rates for work in the outer boroughs as they do for work in
PR> Manhattan. This quite obviously results in making outer-borough
PR> commercial construction non-cost-effective. Developers therefore stick
PR> with Jersey City. Anyway, does this one-price-fits-all policy also
PR> apply to residential construction?
PR>
PR> > When I lived in L.A., the residents of Santa Monica voted in a new city
PR> > council that imposed strong new rent control laws.
PR>
PR> You mean the People's Republic of Santa Monica :-)
PR>
PR> > Seriously, if rent control had any major influence on the state of core city
PR> > neighborhoods, one would expect Chicago and Saint Louis, Philadelphia,
PR> > Washington, and other non-rent control cities to be models of strong
PR> > vigorous affordable housing stock. Alas, such is not the case.
PR>
PR> Yet don't those cities have much more reasonable vacancy rates?
Eashington about 25%, Detroit about 30%. New York about 1.5%. It's far
more a function of demand that lack of construction. If all the new
construction of allsorts on New York CIty was segregated into a place
in the desert, it would equal every ten years the town of Tucson in
Ariozna. People want to live in New York.
JOHN PAZMINO
PK> Organization: A Clearing in the Silicon Forest
PK> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east
PK> Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
PK> > There's an other route that is sometimes considered, happily not
PK> >by you. The IRT and BMT cross in, uh, Brownsville. The Livonia Av BMT
PK> >station and Junius Av
PK>
PK> Junius STREET, John........
Thanks!
PK> >IRT station are a block apart with no transfer
PK> >between them. It may be tempting to just get off the one line, walk
PK> >across to the other, and contiue the ride on the other. DO NOT EVEN
PK> >THINK OF DOING THIS!
PK>
PK> I second that motion. I/we used that footbridge daily from
PK> 1948-1950 to get to and from JHS 109 - the Ida and Isadore
PK> Straus JHS - which was one block west of Junius Street and one
PK> block north of Livonia Avenue. Except when there were lots of
PK> us on the 'bridge, it wasn't overly safe THEN. It hasn't
PK> changed much, I understand.
It's more barren with the removal of most of the rail cargo
operations in the trench under the els.
JOHN PAZMINO
RC> Subject: Re: Neighborhood safety east
RC> Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:05:24 -0400
RC> Organization: 1776 Enterprises; Sudbury, Massachusetts
RC> : The IRT Franklin Av station now communicates with the BMT Franklin
RC> : shuttle, definitely worth a look. The Shuttle was totally rebuilt and
RC> : reopened in 1999; it's the very last rapid transit line of the 1900s.
RC> : The correspinding station on the shuttle is Botanic Gardens, a lovely
RC> : rurified structure.
RC>
RC> "rurified"??! Did you just invent that word? It didn't make it to my
RC> dictionary! Is it perhaps similar to "ruralized" or "rusticated"?
Don't let Peter Daniels red this! I backward made it from
'rurification'.
Shalom Septimus
wrote:
>Could someone summarize the difference between rent control and rent
>stabilization?
You should be talking to my mother; she works in a real estate
consulting office which advises landlords about just such things.
To begin with, rent control is a City law; rent stabilization is a
State law.
If I understand it correctly, rent control is when they can't raise
the rent, period; this affects some 70K tenants. Rent stabilization is
where it goes up by some small fraction per year, based on certain
guidelines:
From http://housingnyc.com/resources/textagguide.html :
>Rent stabilized tenants have a right to renew their leases
>except under certain circumstances, for example, when the
>apartment is not used as the tenant's primary residence.
>The renewal leases for rent stabilized tenants must be on
>the same terms and conditions as the prior lease but may
>provide for a rent increase according to rates permitted by
>the Rent Guidelines Board. Rent stabilized tenants may
>choose either a one-year or a two-year renewal lease. For
>New York City rent stabilized tenants, the landlord must
>give written notice to the tenant of the right to renewal no
>more than 150 days and not less than 120 days prior to the
>end of the lease. After the notice of renewal is given , the
>tenant has 60 days in which to accept. If the tenant does not
>accept the renewal offer within the prescribed time, the
>landlord may refuse to renew the lease and seek to evict
>the tenant through court proceedings.
The guidelines are available at
http://housingnyc.com/guidelines/textguide.html, but I must admit I
can't make head or tail of them, not being in the real estate business
myself.
When a Major Capitol Improvement (e.g. new windows/
roof/elevator/boiler/etc.) is made to the building, this allows an
increase to be made to cover the cost thereof, assuming that all the
tenants have signed off that the MCI has been implemented to their
satisfaction (almost never happens with windows: new double-hung
windows never work right the first time), and that all outstanding
violations of the housing code (chipped paint, vermin, blocked fire
escapes, etc.) have been abated.
> How do some apartments qualify for one but not the other,
For rent control, I think you have to have lived there since 1973. I
haven't found any description of this program online yet.
Rent stabilization is defined at
http://housingnyc.com/questions/zip.html as follows:
>How to tell if your apartment is rent stabilized:
>In general, stabilized BUILDINGS:
> x Contain 6 or more units;
> x Were built before 1974;
> x Are not co-ops or condos;
>In addition, for your APARTMENT to be stabilized it must:
> x Have had a rent of less than $2000, if you initially
> moved into the apartment in 1993 or later.
>There are exceptions to these rules. The only way to know FOR SURE if
>your apartment is (or should be) rent stabilized is to call the NY State
>Division of Housing and Community Renewal (DHCR), the State agency which
>administers the rent laws: Phone for DHCR is 718-739-6400
You can also look it up by zip code on the above page.
Rent stabilization also applies to buildings that have tax abatements
applied for under J-51 (i.e. the above mentioned MCI's; see
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/hpd/html/forms/j51_gb.html for more info
than you ever needed to know about this. Look under section 4.B et
seq.)
>and are there maximum income requirements for tenants?
For rent *control*, maybe. Stabilization, I don't think so: it seems
to be more dependant on the building than the tenant. Ed Koch had a
rent-stabilized apartment in the Village which he kept all the years
that he lived in Gracis Mansion, and I doubt he would have fit a
low-income profile...
I'll run all this info by my mom next time I talk to her, and see if I
got any major part of it wrong.
--
Shalom Septimus
drug...@p0b0x.c0m <---swap zeroes for letter o's to mail me
Peter T. Daniels
As a linguist, I recognize and applaud linguistic creativity.
I am not an English teacher bent on "enforcing" nonexistent "rules"!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Bill Heitner
wrote:
>Could someone summarize the difference between rent control and rent
>stabilization? How do some apartments qualify for one but not the other,
>and are there maximum income requirements for tenan
>Thanks,
>Dan
>
>JOHN PAZMINO <john.p...@relaynet.org> wrote:
>: It doesn;t have to be highrent dwellings. On Staten Island there
>: are very few rent controlled apartments. Too few apartments qualify to
>: come under RC. Everything is market rent. The landlord may charge what
>: ever he wants. What's more, most apartments are in small buildings
>: under the size limit to do under stabilization or other regulated rent
>: scheme.
Rent Control effects only those apartment occupied prior to 7/1/71,
after that its Rent Stabilization Laws, Increases are recalulated each
year by the Rent Guidelines Board..those increases kick in upon the
Lease (1 or 2 yr) renewals. These Laws only effect Buildings with 6
or more tenants.
Mark Mentovai
This is right on target, but I've got a few URLs already on hand, so I
might as well post:
Rent control and rent stabilization is administered by the state's
Department of Housing and Community Renewal
(http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/). You can find out more specifically
about rent control and rent stabilization at:
http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/ora/progs/oraprogs.htm
and
http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/ora/pubs/html/orafac1.htm
Finally, NYC's Rent Guidelines Board:
Mark
chell...@mindspring.com
OK. So where does the transition begin, around the Bklyn-Queens line, or
east/west of there ? Abrupt or gradual ? Curious...
Anthony <imman...@aol.comabc.def> wrote in message
news:20000521171712...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
> >So does this mean that all walking routes to Queens from the L-train
> >terminus are dicey?
>
> Yea, I think so...
>
> >(If they are, how about a walk SW down Flatlands Ave to Kings Highway
> >and beyond to catch the D. Is that are better?)
> >
> MUCH better!!