First Build. Some help to decide

[BooBooBeGone]

Hello,

I have for several years wanted to build a NIXIE clock.

I want to use large tubes, and found that I want to use the IN 18 tube, since they have the largest digits, and I think they look better than the Z5660. And the price for the IN 18 is also lower.

But I have read that the IN-18 are not the best and most reliable large tubes, IN-18 tubes can crack with no warning, and darken prematurely,

And that the Z5660 is a better tube what when it comes to life expectancy.

But the Z5660 have 10mm smaller digits, and that is something that bothers me a bit...

What i realy would like to use is the R|Z568M, from Dalibor Farny, (What a piece of art!) but that is sadly way over my budget.

As for clock kit, what do you reccomend? At the moment I lean towards the Spectrum kit from PV electronics. Anyone with a better suggestion?  

[Jeff Walton]

You won't go wrong with the PV Electronics Spectrum.  I have several of the Spectrum 18 clocks in various cases and they are wonderful.  Excellent support and great features.  Get the motion sensing accessory and the GPS.   The PIR motion sensor works well and lets the tubes rest when no one is around.

The Spectrum is a reliable clock and the custom sockets are gentle on the tube pins compared to PCB pin sockets that some other clocks use.  The Spectrum menu is easy to navigate and is robust. 

Welcome to the world of nixie clocks!  

Jeff  

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[MichaelS]

Agreed. Pete's Spectrum kits are very good and available for z566xm, in18, & z568m tubes.  Highly recommended for the accessories and flexible parameters, if you're up for the challenge.  It took me a few weeks to find the settings I like, but it's easy now.

As for the tubes, z566m & zm1040 tubes are more reliable and have nicely proportioned digits.  Some people (like me), prefer them to in18 tubes.

Regardless, it's good to have a spare or two, in case you have problems.

Dalibor's tubes are amazing and well worth his asking price, because the quality is better than mass produced tubes.  Be warned though, he's having a hard time keeping up with demand.

To be honest, in18 tubes are fine.  You may get an odd tube that has problems, but they're pretty reliable.  They just seem a bit industrial to me.

You should buy one of each and see which you prefer. You won't really know until you see them lit up. 

Have fun!

[Jeff Walton]

The ZM1040/ZM1042 tubes are almost as large as the IN-18 and are also gorgeous.   May be harder to find but worth it.   I've had (3) IN-18's fail but no issues with the ZM1042's.  The PV Electronics Spectrum with the ZM1042 is great.   Same architecture as the IN-18 Spectrum. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/8038ccb7-9d33-4fab-99fb-832229b72d53%40googlegroups.com.

[BooBooBeGone]

Hello all,

I bought a PV electronics Spectrum kit with Z566m tubes.
I have "bombarded" Pete with stupid questons through this build, so I guess he is geting fed up of me,(I would be anyway) so I'll ask some questions here
Did the first tube test, and in 3 tubes some of the lead in wires glow.

Tube 1 all wires glows
Tube 2 wire 1,2,3,4,5 and 9 glows
Tube 3 wire 9 glow.

It does not matter if i put these tubes in another socket, the wires still glows.

voltage is 170 volt

Is this normal?
Is it possible to do anything about this?
Will this have any influence on tube life length?

[Jeff Walton]

That's no fun!   I would say that it's a tube issue.   I've seen it on a few occasions with buying used nixies off of ebay.  I don't know any way to fix it - short of replacing with a different tube.  Maybe run for a day or two and see if they improve.   If these came from Pete,  send him a photo in an email.  He is reputable.  I've gotten kits with tubes from him a couple times with no issues.  

Jeff 

-------- Original message --------
From: BooBooBeGone <fast...@gmail.com>
Date: 11/24/16 12:34 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] First Build. Some help to decide

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[MichaelS]

Yikes - sounds like tube problems to me too.  The wires running from the tube pins to the numbers is usually coated with something to prevent them from glowing.  The tubes could just be bad.  However, if the tubes are run at higher voltage or current, the wires at the base of the tube can glow.  The wire glowing can become permanent over time.

If you do a search on cathode poisoning, you'll see how people run tubes at higher current to burn deposits off the digits, but it can cause problems like you're seeing.

You could try lowering the high voltage power supply voltage to see if the wires stop glowing, but you want the numbers to light fully to avoid problems over time.

Sounds like your kit is fine.  :)

[BooBooBeGone]

Found a datasheet online, stating that fire voltage for the Z566 is 150v
Max voltage 170v

Since i have 170V at the moment, maybe i shoul try to set it at around 160V?

[threeneurons]

Voltage is irrelevant, other than just being high enough to initiate ionization. These are not modern digital logic ICs. Things are not that precise. This is kit, so there are anode current limiting resistors preventing excess current. I don't know your electronics background, but voltage and current are two different things. Voltage is "pressure", and current is electron flow rate. You need pressure, for flow, so they are related but different. Look at nixie basics:

My nixie page

What you are reading on its datasheet, is probably the maintaining voltage. 

Nixies are much like LEDs, as its a "current" device, as in electrical current. The voltage drop (potential difference) finds its own value. For LEDs its ~1.8V for red, ~3V for blue, and between 130 to 150V for a nixie. The difference, however, other than voltage magnitude, is that an LED plateaus at its voltage, where you need to reach a much higher "strike voltage", with a nixie, and once it "strikes" (ionizes), the voltage across the nixie drops, to its maintain (or sustain) voltage. A simple resistor works fine in keeping excess current from damaging either an LED or nixie. (see drawing). Yes, you do need to know math. Get over it, and learn.

As far as glowing wires. I assume the nixies are running in the kit. If not, are you using a limiting resistor ?

Get a 170VDC source, or more, and run the individual numerals over time (hours, days). This may just be "sleeping sickness", which is a temporary form of cathode poisoning. Start with one numeral, and let it run until, the numeral fully illuminates. Then go to the next numeral, until all 10 numerals (0-9) glow properly. Again remember to include the limiting anode resistor, in the path. (see drawing). 

[Jeff Walton]

BooBooBeGone:

Let them run in the circuit for a few days and see if anything changes. They are OLD tubes and have been sitting around a long time before this operation.

You can always lower the voltage but that probably isn't necessary or even the way to go. You should be driving the tubes using the rated voltage and current. 160v would be OK and would reduce both the current and the voltage but wouldn't help to "condition" the tubes for normal operation. If the cathodes have microscopic depositions from any tube contaminations, running the tubes in the clock could help. The other explanations I've read are good but are probably beyond what you should be trying at this point.

I know that you are excited to fire up the new kit but be patient and take your time. If it turns out that the tubes don't clear after a few days, then take a couple photos of them in operation and send a photo to the kit supplier and ask for ways to remedy the situation. It is almost certainly an issue with the nixies and not the clock.

I have worked with ZM1042's which are an equivalent tube (in the same clock) and they are truly a beautiful tube and make a great clock! Ultimately, you should be very happy with the end product. Right now, the tube issues are just an initial inconvenience.


Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of BooBooBeGone
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 8:18 AM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] First Build. Some help to decide

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[BooBooBeGone]

Jeff:

Your methode sounds like the easiest...

I'll run the clock for a few days in the clocks "test mode" where all the tubes counts from 0 -9 repeatedly. This way all numbers will be used evenly.

I was afraid to do this as i have read that if a tube is driven with to much current, so that the wire glows ( when trying to cure cathode poisoning) the wire could be damaged so it glows all the time the digit is lit.

[Alic]

I also witnessed this "awakening" process where the wire(s) would glow, but only with old top-view nixies. The test sequence on Pete's clock was switching too quickly between the cathodes to be efficient, so I hooked the nixies up manually to a 170V supply through an appropriate anode resistor. I also noticed that the nixies behaved differently depending on the light conditions : during the day, when the sun was up, I would witness less wire-glowing.

[MichaelS]

Please post some pictures showing the problem.  Based on what you said earlier:

"Did the first tube test, and in 3 tubes some of the lead in wires glow.

Tube 1 all wires glows
Tube 2 wire 1,2,3,4,5 and 9 glows
Tube 3 wire 9 glow."

It sounds like the wires between the tube pins and the cathode digits are glowing.  I've seen that on several different types of nixies and haven't really seen much improvement over time.  You may notice it less later though.

If the digits light fully, try not to let it bother you too much...

[BooBooBeGone]

Update:

Set the clock to "test mode" yesterday evening. This morning only two tubes had this glowing wires. (tube 1 and 2, who had the most wires glowing.) 

Tube 2 had glowing wires only on 2,3,4 and 9. no difference in the tube with all the wires glowing.

I am at work at the moment, so I am exited to see when I get home, if it has improved during the day 

Attached an image.

[BooBooBeGone]

New update:

Home from work, and now it is only the tube with all wires lowing that has this problem. No improvement in that tube.

Tink I will put that tube in the one minute position, and start the clock mode, and see what happens.

[gregebert]

Thanks for the photo; You could 3D print some collars that sit around the base of the tube to hide the glowing wires.

I'm not aware of anything circuit-wise that you can do to eliminate the glowing wires, but you might be able to reduce their visibility with lower current. Of course, that will reduce the brightness of the tubes as well.